Sigh

So we also know now that Axl was full of shit when he said that he wanted to make an "Aerosmith Rocks" type of album that would have really pleased Slash back in 1996. He told Kurt Loder in the 1999 or 2000 interview that he wanted to make an Appetite sounding record.

Ummm ... NO.

What you think The Spaghetti Incident was? It was a compromise to keep things rolling because they couldn't agree on a creative direction. Axl did indeed wanted a simpler AFD-like rock album because it would been quicker to do given the situation he and the band was in.

Now listen to Slash's stuff post GnR. Slash's stuff sound more like the songs he wrote for UYIs.

Except for the solos, the overall AFD rock sound is not Slash's sound. Slash has been quoted as saying many times how he can't stand Izzy's style. The AFD rock sound is actually too simplistic for Slash's liking.

What Slash wanted post UYIs after the tour ended was what he eventually put out on his Snakepit albums. That's the rock sound he wanted for GnR.

To get Slash to want to do an AFD-like rock album, meant Slash would have to play second fiddler to Axl and Izzy again ... just like on AFD. Izzy was actually convinced to come back. But then as Marc Canter put it, Slash got BIG HEADED because Axl only liked 3-4 of his Snakepit songs. Then, everything just fell apart after that.

You might want to read this regarding Slash saying he "can't stand Izzy's style."

http://www.chopaway.com/viewtopic.php?id=555

"Slash has accused you of turning in sloppily made demo tapes."

"That's not Slash talking. That's Axl talking and Slash repeating it. Axl did say the tapes weren't up to GNR standards. Well, in the beginning nobody owned an eight-track. All our tapes were made on a cassette player. Whatever, I'm credited with just about everything I wrote. I will say that Slash was much better at keeping tapes in order. He always labeled stuff."

Pauls been with Axl since prior to Appetite. He deserves some credit for helping the band write songs, but he's not as good a songwriter as West Arkeen was.

That's interesting because I found songs like Crash Diet to be incredibly bland and unimpressive.

Paul isn't my favorite musician, but his songwriting genius makes up for it.

Songwriting genius? Do tell.

You're trying to cupcake or you're just GNR illiterate. Anyways, if you would kindly take a glance at Cosmonaut's post a few posts up, you'll understand. Although you already know the situation.

I am looking for some evidence of your claim about Paul Huge's supposed songwriting genius.

Do you have any such evidence?

I'm not even going to respond to that. You're obviously someone who knows GNR songs but doesn't realise who helped on them.

I don't think you can respond. I don't think anyone can point to anything substantive contributed to GnR music by Paul Huge other than the atrocious Back Off Bitch.

The credits he is given on CD may very well be Rosé just trying to justify trying to force Huge into the band (back when it could still be considered a band).

Pauls been with Axl since prior to Appetite. He deserves some credit for helping the band write songs, but he's not as good a songwriter as West Arkeen was.

That's interesting because I found songs like Crash Diet to be incredibly bland and unimpressive.

Paul isn't my favorite musician, but his songwriting genius makes up for it.

Songwriting genius? Do tell.

You're trying to cupcake or you're just GNR illiterate. Anyways, if you would kindly take a glance at Cosmonaut's post a few posts up, you'll understand. Although you already know the situation.

I am looking for some evidence of your claim about Paul Huge's supposed songwriting genius.

Do you have any such evidence?

Pauls been with Axl since prior to Appetite. He deserves some credit for helping the band write songs, but he's not as good a songwriter as West Arkeen was.

That's interesting because I found songs like Crash Diet to be incredibly bland and unimpressive.

Paul isn't my favorite musician, but his songwriting genius makes up for it.

Songwriting genius? Do tell.

Paul Tobias is probably the Axl's greatest songwriting partner since Izzy. The more involved he is with GnR, the better.

Holy shit. Really?

Pauls been with Axl since prior to Appetite. He deserves some credit for helping the band write songs, but he's not as good a songwriter as West Arkeen was.

Well, he did co-write the immortal GnR classic, Back Off Bitch. So he has that going for him.

I always think it's a shame how members who wrote CD, are no longer involved. People like Robin, Bucket, Brain and even Paul. It's kind of like the best band the world has ever seen that never was able to flurish, and create albums of GOLD.

Now I have no hope in people like DJ, who is just a typical gimicky, Motely Crue type of player which I dispise... The best I wish for now is either Robins return, or at least him returning more for special guest appearances like he did in LA.

That video of Better from LA posted above is proof how much more talented Robin is than DJ. Robin literally just pissed over everything DJ has done live with GN'R since 2009, with that ONE performance of better.

Are you referencing Paul Huge?

There is no "band".

A band makes decisions collectively. When to tour. When to write. When to rehearse. When to release new music. What music to release. When to take the stage. Bands share decisions. Solo artists hire musicians and take them on tour. Solo artists make all of the above referenced decisions.

This is what Rose wanted. He wanted to make all of those decisions himself. He wanted the final word. And he has that now.

So the questions about new music should all be framed within that context. So the question should be "When will Rose release another solo album under the moniker of Guns N Roses?"

What is going to be interesting going forward is whether the current musician employees are willing to continue as touring musicians without being able to record new music. We know Dizzy will stay on forever no matter what. I suspect that Fortus will as well, and so will Pittman. I can see Thal, Stinson and even Ashba growing tired of the arrangement and leaving. They seem the most anxious to actually make new music and the most willing to leave once they realize that isn't going to happen.

And, once again, when you resort to such extreme examples in your analogies, you reveal the weakness of your argument.

Ali

Those analogies actually show the strength of my argument. Please don't accuse me of being self-righteous for posting that.

They show the strength of my argument because they crystallize how objective truths cannot be denied by those of you who wallow in the land of the supposed subjective. Sure, you can find someone who prefers Plan 9 From Outer Space. That doesn't change the objective truth that The Godfather is the better film. I realize that apologists often try to make the work of an artist as somehow just a matter of preference, but my extremes only show the silliness of such arguments. It isn't all subjective. Art (music, film, etc.) can be objectively measured. Is The Godfather better than The Godfather Part II? That's subjective. That's an opinion. But both of them are far superior to The Godfather Part III. That's not subjective. That's just a statement of fact.

What is that, six and a half years ago?

Apparently you don't know ALL the defintions of the word "self-righteous". Here's the one I used:

Main Entry: selfrigh·teous

Pronunciation: \-ˈrī-chəs\

Function: adjective

Date: circa 1680

: convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions and beliefs of others.

By the way, stating your opinion as "objective truth" makes you seem silly and self-righteous (as by the above definition).

Ali

Does claiming that I am self-righteous make you self-righteous, by your definition? It certainly appears to.

Do you not see how silly that argument was in the first place?

Do we need to have a conversation about "objective truth"? Or can you simply admit that the out of tune, out of breath falsetto sounds terrible compared to any of the videos I have posted (and will continue to post, if necessary)?

NOT TO BE AN ASSHOLE...but ummm...have you ever watched this show? by the second half of the show Axl has completely thrown his voice out and barely makes it through. Fast forward to paradise and anyone can see why Axl sings the way he does today. He grew up, learned how to control his voice and is a much more consistent singer today then he was in any period of the original band.

I just listened to Rose sing Perfect Crime at one hour and thirty-seven minutes into the show.

You were saying?

Apparently you don't know ALL the defintions of the word "self-righteous". Here's the one I used:

Main Entry: selfrigh·teous

Pronunciation: \-ˈrī-chəs\

Function: adjective

Date: circa 1680

: convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions and beliefs of others.

By the way, stating your opinion as "objective truth" makes you seem silly and self-righteous (as by the above definition).

Ali

Does claiming that I am self-righteous make you self-righteous, by your definition? It certainly appears to.

Do you not see how silly that argument was in the first place?

Do we need to have a conversation about "objective truth"? Or can you simply admit that the out of tune, out of breath falsetto sounds terrible compared to any of the videos I have posted (and will continue to post, if necessary)?

No, because I'm not the one equating my opinions to objective fact. In fact, I clearly stated earlier that my statements of Axl's vocals wee just my opinions, therefore no more or less right than anyone else's.

Ali

And, once again, trying to deny objective truths as being mere "preferences" is just the refuge of the apologist. Getting a kiss from a loved one is better than getting kicked in the junk. Just because you can find a masochist who prefers getting kicked in the junk doesn't make the truth that a kiss is better than a kick in the junk any less of an objective truth.

When you apologists wallow in Subjectivia, the rest of us in the real world will continue to point out facts.

Even with grainy, fan shot videos from club shows in 1986, you can see how awesome the vocals used to be, and how terrible they are now in comparison.

Fact: Ali and brainsaber have too much time on their hands and would be better off becoming Scientologists

See, I would characterize that as an opinion.

Apparently you don't know ALL the defintions of the word "self-righteous". Here's the one I used:

Main Entry: selfrigh·teous

Pronunciation: \-ˈrī-chəs\

Function: adjective

Date: circa 1680

: convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions and beliefs of others.

By the way, stating your opinion as "objective truth" makes you seem silly and self-righteous (as by the above definition).

Ali

Does claiming that I am self-righteous make you self-righteous, by your definition? It certainly appears to.

Do you not see how silly that argument was in the first place?

Do we need to have a conversation about "objective truth"? Or can you simply admit that the out of tune, out of breath falsetto sounds terrible compared to any of the videos I have posted (and will continue to post, if necessary)?

Of course you can do this for awhile. Although I think you're too cowardly to post under your main account. Interesting dichotomy.

I only have one account. If you are suggesting that I have posted on this forum under some other name, then you are simply wrong.

Do people have to employ secondary anonymous user accounts to protect their initial anonymous user name?

Multiple people said he didn't sound terrible.

I think the word we can agree upon is "inconsistent." I think his clean voice is starting to sound better in places.

Multiple people have said that they think he sounds incredible all the time. Multiple people are incapable of objectivity. I'm not sure that the volume of people being honest has anything to do with whether something is true or not.

His vocals sound terrible. They sound less terrible amidst the loud drums, guitars and synthesizers played during the songs.

Let's not act as if we can't go to Youtube and watch Guns N Roses videos from 1986 through 2006 and hear incredible vocals from Rose. We can. We know what Rose is capable of.

What he is doing now is terrible. It's not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of being honest.

No offense, but you don't seem to know what the difference is between an irrefutable fact and an opinion. What you just stated is an opinion. One you may feel very strongly about. But, the more resolute you are in your opinions does by make them approach fact.

Ali

It is a fact that The Godfather is a better film than Plan 9 From Outer Space. But there will always be people who will argue that such is just an opinion. Trying to reduce facts to mere opinions is one of the things which apologists use to justify their opinions in the face of the facts.

If you have to use such an extreme example to try and make your point, you're arguing from a weak position.

Preference is always subjective, never objective, and as such, always a matter of opinion.

Ali

I didn't realize we were going to have to reduce ourselves to semantics.

The Godfather is to 1988 Rose vocals as Plan 9 From Outer Space is to 2013 Rose vocals.

To reduce that to a "preference" instead of the objective statement of fact is, again, just a tactic used by the apologist.

That analogy is based upon your personal preference and opinion, therefore it was never an objective statement of fact to begin with.

Standard or average may be more appropriate. The last two Vegas shows, which I was at, were very good. But, those are just my opinions.

Self-righteousness does not reduce others' opinions to self-deception.

Ali

You shouldn't use words you don't know the meaning of. Nobody I am aware of is making moral judgments in this thread or on this Guns N Roses themed message board.

Multiple people said he didn't sound terrible.

I think the word we can agree upon is "inconsistent." I think his clean voice is starting to sound better in places.

Multiple people have said that they think he sounds incredible all the time. Multiple people are incapable of objectivity. I'm not sure that the volume of people being honest has anything to do with whether something is true or not.

His vocals sound terrible. They sound less terrible amidst the loud drums, guitars and synthesizers played during the songs.

Let's not act as if we can't go to Youtube and watch Guns N Roses videos from 1986 through 2006 and hear incredible vocals from Rose. We can. We know what Rose is capable of.

What he is doing now is terrible. It's not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of being honest.

I'm sorry, I just don't agree that his "vocals sound terrible." I truly, honestly believe that some of you are just being dramatic.

Oh and...

Do you see the irony in the fact that you're an extremist just like the people saying he sounded fantastic are extremists? You said he sounded terrible. You're no better than the people you're criticizing.

I didn't claim to be better than anyone. To suggest, after hearing them, that these 2013 vocals of Rose are anything other than terrible is to simply ignore reality. To deceive yourself, and ostensibly to try to deceive others. It has nothing to do with extremism. It has everything to do with objectivity. He sounds awful. No amount of trying to confuse or deny that is going to change that fact. If you like, I can start linking to Youtube videos from 1986 shows and 1987 shows and 1988 shows and 1991 shows and 1992 shows and 1993 shows and all the way up to the 2006 shows, where Rose sounded incredible.

It appears to me that some of you have taken defending Rose to such extremes that you are incapable of being honest about him, even with yourselves. Whereas I can watch the 2006 shows and enjoy the awesome vocals of Rose, and then see these 2013 shows and comment about how terrible his vocals are.

And, again, I'm happy to provide video evidence of same.

Maybe you didn't read it, but so far in the thread, I've said he sounded inconsistent and that his clean voice was better in places. Now tell me how in the fuck that is "defending Axl to an extreme."

I disagree with your apparently self-righteous assessment that Axl sounded terrible for the whole show. I NEVER SAID he sounded great or fantastic or excellent or brilliant. Quit acting like I did.

From the footage I've seen, he sounded good in places and not good in others. But overall, I think it ranks as a decent show. I guess to you, that makes me some poor deluded extremist Axl defender. Whatever.

You saying he was terrible is just as bad someone else saying he was great. Both of you are extremist. I'm a realist.

I did read it, and I would use your own words to describe you as an apologist, not an extremist. I believe you were the one using the term "extremist".

I use the term apologist, because to suggest that these 2013 (or 2012) vocals are "better" "in places" is an argument an apologist would use. Frankly, it is a ridiculous argument. What places? Better than what? Than a certain show in Vegas? That's the kind of thing which would be an opinion. Which vocal was worse? Perth on March 9 or Vegas on November 22?

Let's not be silly. We all know what we are talking about here. We are comparing vocals Axl Rose USED to be able to deliver, even as recently as 2006, to the out of tune, out of breath falsetto he currently employs. The current vocals are in no way "better" than anything done up to and including 2006 live shows.

But to an apologist, they would be "better" "in spots", because that would allow a Rose apologist to make some specious claim in defense of Rose. It isn't all relative. The vocals now are terrible. They just are. To deny that fact, that objective truth, just makes you and others look silly.

I can do this for a while. And by that, I mean I can post videos of Axl Rose singing which show the incredible vocals he used to be capable of.

Multiple people said he didn't sound terrible.

I think the word we can agree upon is "inconsistent." I think his clean voice is starting to sound better in places.

Multiple people have said that they think he sounds incredible all the time. Multiple people are incapable of objectivity. I'm not sure that the volume of people being honest has anything to do with whether something is true or not.

His vocals sound terrible. They sound less terrible amidst the loud drums, guitars and synthesizers played during the songs.

Let's not act as if we can't go to Youtube and watch Guns N Roses videos from 1986 through 2006 and hear incredible vocals from Rose. We can. We know what Rose is capable of.

What he is doing now is terrible. It's not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of being honest.

I'm sorry, I just don't agree that his "vocals sound terrible." I truly, honestly believe that some of you are just being dramatic.

Oh and...

Do you see the irony in the fact that you're an extremist just like the people saying he sounded fantastic are extremists? You said he sounded terrible. You're no better than the people you're criticizing.

I didn't claim to be better than anyone. To suggest, after hearing them, that these 2013 vocals of Rose are anything other than terrible is to simply ignore reality. To deceive yourself, and ostensibly to try to deceive others. It has nothing to do with extremism. It has everything to do with objectivity. He sounds awful. No amount of trying to confuse or deny that is going to change that fact. If you like, I can start linking to Youtube videos from 1986 shows and 1987 shows and 1988 shows and 1991 shows and 1992 shows and 1993 shows and all the way up to the 2006 shows, where Rose sounded incredible.

It appears to me that some of you have taken defending Rose to such extremes that you are incapable of being honest about him, even with yourselves. Whereas I can watch the 2006 shows and enjoy the awesome vocals of Rose, and then see these 2013 shows and comment about how terrible his vocals are.

And, again, I'm happy to provide video evidence of same.

To suggest Axl's vocals are anything other than terrible is not ignoring reality. It's just disagreeing with you. Your opinion does not equal reality no matter how much you believe it to.

Ali

Now we can reduce ourselves even further to a war of adjectives. My adjective was terrible. Apparently it was too harsh for the apologists.

Do you have a different adjective in mind? Perhaps you can share it. I suspect it will be something along the lines of "different".

And when it is, will you admit to self-deception?

Multiple people said he didn't sound terrible.

I think the word we can agree upon is "inconsistent." I think his clean voice is starting to sound better in places.

Multiple people have said that they think he sounds incredible all the time. Multiple people are incapable of objectivity. I'm not sure that the volume of people being honest has anything to do with whether something is true or not.

His vocals sound terrible. They sound less terrible amidst the loud drums, guitars and synthesizers played during the songs.

Let's not act as if we can't go to Youtube and watch Guns N Roses videos from 1986 through 2006 and hear incredible vocals from Rose. We can. We know what Rose is capable of.

What he is doing now is terrible. It's not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of being honest.

No offense, but you don't seem to know what the difference is between an irrefutable fact and an opinion. What you just stated is an opinion. One you may feel very strongly about. But, the more resolute you are in your opinions does by make them approach fact.

Ali

It is a fact that The Godfather is a better film than Plan 9 From Outer Space. But there will always be people who will argue that such is just an opinion. Trying to reduce facts to mere opinions is one of the things which apologists use to justify their opinions in the face of the facts.

If you have to use such an extreme example to try and make your point, you're arguing from a weak position.

Preference is always subjective, never objective, and as such, always a matter of opinion.

Ali

I didn't realize we were going to have to reduce ourselves to semantics.

The Godfather is to 1988 Rose vocals as Plan 9 From Outer Space is to 2013 Rose vocals.

To reduce that to a "preference" instead of the objective statement of fact is, again, just a tactic used by the apologist.

Multiple people said he didn't sound terrible.

I think the word we can agree upon is "inconsistent." I think his clean voice is starting to sound better in places.

Multiple people have said that they think he sounds incredible all the time. Multiple people are incapable of objectivity. I'm not sure that the volume of people being honest has anything to do with whether something is true or not.

His vocals sound terrible. They sound less terrible amidst the loud drums, guitars and synthesizers played during the songs.

Let's not act as if we can't go to Youtube and watch Guns N Roses videos from 1986 through 2006 and hear incredible vocals from Rose. We can. We know what Rose is capable of.

What he is doing now is terrible. It's not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of being honest.

I'm sorry, I just don't agree that his "vocals sound terrible." I truly, honestly believe that some of you are just being dramatic.

Oh and...

Do you see the irony in the fact that you're an extremist just like the people saying he sounded fantastic are extremists? You said he sounded terrible. You're no better than the people you're criticizing.

I didn't claim to be better than anyone. To suggest, after hearing them, that these 2013 vocals of Rose are anything other than terrible is to simply ignore reality. To deceive yourself, and ostensibly to try to deceive others. It has nothing to do with extremism. It has everything to do with objectivity. He sounds awful. No amount of trying to confuse or deny that is going to change that fact. If you like, I can start linking to Youtube videos from 1986 shows and 1987 shows and 1988 shows and 1991 shows and 1992 shows and 1993 shows and all the way up to the 2006 shows, where Rose sounded incredible.

It appears to me that some of you have taken defending Rose to such extremes that you are incapable of being honest about him, even with yourselves. Whereas I can watch the 2006 shows and enjoy the awesome vocals of Rose, and then see these 2013 shows and comment about how terrible his vocals are.

And, again, I'm happy to provide video evidence of same.

Multiple people said he didn't sound terrible.

I think the word we can agree upon is "inconsistent." I think his clean voice is starting to sound better in places.

Multiple people have said that they think he sounds incredible all the time. Multiple people are incapable of objectivity. I'm not sure that the volume of people being honest has anything to do with whether something is true or not.

His vocals sound terrible. They sound less terrible amidst the loud drums, guitars and synthesizers played during the songs.

Let's not act as if we can't go to Youtube and watch Guns N Roses videos from 1986 through 2006 and hear incredible vocals from Rose. We can. We know what Rose is capable of.

What he is doing now is terrible. It's not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of being honest.

No offense, but you don't seem to know what the difference is between an irrefutable fact and an opinion. What you just stated is an opinion. One you may feel very strongly about. But, the more resolute you are in your opinions does by make them approach fact.

Ali

It is a fact that The Godfather is a better film than Plan 9 From Outer Space. But there will always be people who will argue that such is just an opinion. Trying to reduce facts to mere opinions is one of the things which apologists use to justify their opinions in the face of the facts.

Multiple people said he didn't sound terrible.

I think the word we can agree upon is "inconsistent." I think his clean voice is starting to sound better in places.

Multiple people have said that they think he sounds incredible all the time. Multiple people are incapable of objectivity. I'm not sure that the volume of people being honest has anything to do with whether something is true or not.

His vocals sound terrible. They sound less terrible amidst the loud drums, guitars and synthesizers played during the songs.

Let's not act as if we can't go to Youtube and watch Guns N Roses videos from 1986 through 2006 and hear incredible vocals from Rose. We can. We know what Rose is capable of.

What he is doing now is terrible. It's not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of being honest.

He sounds amazing to me. I'm sorry, I'm not stuck in 91.

What does not being stuck in 1991 have anything to do with how a singer sounds in 2013? Your post makes no sense.

He sounds terrible. To state otherwise is just silly.

What an absolute diva. Sad that he reduced himself to what he has become. It didn't have to be that way.

True.

But speaking of diva, Axl is one too.

I was talking about Axl Rose, not Corey Taylor.

What an absolute diva. Sad that he reduced himself to what he has become. It didn't have to be that way.

"Contract issue"

This fucking band.

There is no band. Only Axl Rose.

No. Not if Chinese Democracy is indicative of (1) what they would produce as a "studio band", and (2) indicative of how long it would take them to produce one album as a "studio band".

I really do wish that they would stop playing as "Guns N Roses" and start playing by their real name:

Axl Rose and His Sycophants

Has a nice ring to it.