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What are some albums by artists whose careers were cut short either by disbandment or death, whose final releases, though not meant to serve as such, have a musical finality to them, like, with hindsight, they work as final statements even though they were never intended as such?

Two examples I will offer up:

LA Woman by The Doors - Jim Morrison had no idea what he was gonna do next but he certainly didn't intend to die four months after the album came out, and at times even said the next record would be wilder than LA Woman, yet the album as a whole really has this sense of finality pulsing through it. It's not the work of an uninspired or tired band, yet what better curtain call to a career can you get than LA Woman?

Abbey Road - Yes, the boys were nearing the end but they didn't break up until a year after it came out and John didn't even announce to the band that he wanted out until a month and a half after it came out. Even then, he flip flopped about coming back until Paul made it public and final. Yet "The End" feels like a goodbye, a great statement to close the books on, and a mighty good one at that.

On August 21, 2018 at 6:33 PM, Nice Boy said:

i feel kinda sorry for Axl that the 2 songs people consistently say are the worst on UYI are both ones which he pretty much created himself

My World is him pissing around with synths on mushrooms, and Shotgun Blues is him on guitar attempting to do a British Punk song

And everyone just cringes when they hear these efforts

 

At the same time, Estranged and NR, also two of his numbers are considered among the best.

I think that while Slash and Duff are of a higher status in a way than the rest (especially in terms of marketing and financial importance), Axl at the same time views this and nugnr as the same band; that is, this is not a "reunion" to him so much as it is Slash and Duff joining HIS Guns N' Roses.

I also would not be surprised if Slash and Axl (amicably) part ways again before 2021, and Axl simply replaced him with another guy, banking on the newfound public good will.

The important thing to remember is that GN'R isn't a band in any sense of the word and hasn't been since 94, and it isn't Axl's solo project as it was in the NuGnR years; it is a brand and corporation, moreso than even other "legacy" acts like the Stones.

On August 16, 2018 at 3:25 PM, Propaganda said:

My go to songs are Oh My God, Chinese Democracy (Antiquiet) and There Was a Time (2001)

Myself I love Maddy, TWAT (early versions) and '99 IRS. I feel like those best represent Axl's earliest visions for the project that were completed. If there was a studio version of the 2001 Chinese D with the keyboard melodies I'd love that.

Does anyone have the pro shot Ritz 91 or anything from Alpine Valley?

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

I think most answers are in the posts I linked to, but I’ll try to put it all together.

1) & 4):

I think no one knows exactly what kind of sound Axl was heading for, maybe not even Axl himself knew clearly. Based only on interviews and quotes (it’s the only thing we have, since we weren’t there) and filtering them, he most likely wanted to do, other than piano epics, something more 90s rock by incorporating some new elements from contemporary things he liked (but not a radical change to the GnR sound, because he was relying heavily on Slash). And he saw the second guitar spot as the key factor for that “update”. It seems that his idea after Izzy left was to pair Slash with a guitarist with a strong musical personality and not stylistically similar, in order to create a new “dynamic”.

Axl had excluded Gilby for that role from the beginning; even right after they had hired him and before they started playing with him, Axl had made it clear in public (in a radio interview from Nov. 1991) that he saw Gilby only as a touring member and there were no plans for him after the tour * – it’s safe to guess that he had said the same in private. Who knows, maybe Axl saw Gilby just as a poor man’s Izzy and didn’t see any real potential in him – it was nothing personal, just that. The reason Gilby stayed in the band as long as he did after the tour and they even tried to write the new album with him (in the failed March-April ’94 writing sessions) was because Slash liked him. So poor Gilby was getting messages from Axl that he was out of the band and from Slash that he was still in the band *. But even Slash, although he clearly liked Gilby, “kind of got along”, as he himself said, with Axl’s opinion about firing him at one time when he was pissed at Gilby because he had missed a rehearsal * (this may be a hint to what Slash is like in regards to certain things – he wants to get work done). Then he tried to bring Gilby back, but Axl was adamantly against it.

Axl’s original dream scenario was Dave Navarro and a Jane’s Addiction “vibe” to the GnR sound *. But after that couldn’t materialize and Navarro didn’t even show up for an audition, he was looking vaguely for that “X factor”.

And then he came up with the Paul Huge/Tobias “solution”, bringing him into the studio to “help”. It’s not clear if Axl intended him as a full member/for the second guitar spot, since, from the interviews of the time and from the Zakk Wylde brief tryout, it seems that the second guitar spot remained open during all that time; and Tobias himself never showed signs that he cared about or liked the rockstar exposure. Paul though, judging from his known back record till then (the two old GnR songs he had helped in writing and his band Mank Rage) didn’t have anything special about him that could make him an “X factor” for the evolution of the GnR sound. Unless Axl had idealized him (because he had said he was introduced, as a kid, to blues rock guitar by him) and he saw him as “bigger” than he really was, we have to wonder why he wanted him there. I think Paul probably combined some things that were important to Axl at that moment: based on their backstory, he was someone who could “translate” Axl’s ideas into guitar, as Axl’s guitar skills were limited, in the way Axl had worked with Izzy and West Arkeen before; he was sort of an Izzy substitute in other ways too (Indiana, childhood friend, the three of them had a garage band back there); and, of course, he was someone whom Axl could trust and who could be his “eyes and ears” in the studio, and would report back to him.

The rest of the story is known: Slash hated Paul from the very beginning. The rehearsals with him in ’94 lasted two weeks until Slash told Axl he couldn’t have him anymore *. Duff and Matt didn’t like him either. It seems that the guy had an attitude and felt entitled, but the fact alone that he was Axl’s friend and trusted person would be enough at that point, for Slash at least. During the same time Slash recorded Snakepit, which caused more tension when Axl found out about some of the songs Slash had used for it. And after that there was the SFTD incident, which hurt Slash's pride and he saw it, not unrightfully, as being disrespectful to him.

Moreover, Slash didn’t like to share leads and solos and he didn’t like to have a “guitar competitor” in the band in general (and that included even Izzy at a time). He wanted someone to complement his playing and, to him, Gilby was great for that. Axl, on the other hand, wanted that competition as the “key factor” (see Navarro) and that was another source of tension. The Zakk Wylde story was just a “let’s see if it works” and, in my opinion, an attempt on Axl’s part to reach out to Slash with someone that was more compatible to his style, plus someone Slash was fond of as a person *. Duff seems to have liked him. But it couldn’t work for Slash for the aforementioned reason. And it didn’t work for Axl either, as he admitted later *. So it didn’t matter much. It’s an indication, though, that Axl didn’t look for something radical, he just wanted something that would revitalize the band’s sound in a way.

I don’t think that either Gilby or Paul Tobias could have brought anything to the band as it was at that point, because Axl didn’t like Gilby and Slash didn’t like Paul, so it was a dead end. Now in a “what if” scenario where everybody loved each other: I’d say that Gilby’s contributions to the first Snakepit and his first solo album are an indication of the potential; and maybe of the limits, as well (depends how one sees it). As for Paul, his only known work outside GnR at that time was that band Mank Rage and I don’t see anything special there that helps figure out what he could have brought; and it’s hard to say based only on his contributions on CD (I’m not even convinced that he contributed to that extent).

* I don’t want to fill the post with quotes (it ended up being very long as is), but I can post them if necessary.

2):

Difficult to say. Slash had referred to “songs” without vocals, not fragments. And Matt had talked about 7 completed songs in ’96. So I think it’s likely that there are some full songs. And I’d be very curious to hear them some day.

3):

In a nutshell, mainly miscommunication/third party involvement and power games (I don’t think Axl was the sole player in those).

I think things had become toxic during the Illusions and, basically, the band had already broken up then. The relatively quick and immense success, as well as mental/emotional problems and addictions, didn’t help (ironically, Izzy’s and then Duff’s newfound soberness didn’t help the band either, although of course it was life-saving for themselves and Duff seems, by character, to have been more patient, tolerant and able to cope with the madness, and that’s why he lasted as long as he did in the band).

All the above became worse after the tour. Axl and Slash were on different trips each. Slash didn’t want another UYI process, he wouldn’t compromise like the other time. Axl wanted something else and had a lot of personal problems. An additional problem was that Axl wasn’t inspired to write like he was for the Illusions (by his own account saying he had a writer’s block and by accounts of others) so he waited for the band to come up with something to trigger him - but that was just another symptom.

------

Like I said in the beginning, I wasn’t there, of course. So all this is just my opinion after putting bits and pieces together, mostly based on the –many times contradictory- words of the people involved in one way or the other, and filtering them, i.e. without taking everything said by them at face value, taking into account each person’s consistency.

One of the biggest "what if's" for me is if Dave Navarro had shown up and been taken into the band. Navarro had a very "90s" style and was capable enough to fulfill the Izzy role (in that he could be both a lead and rhythm player, playing off Slash the way Izzy did on AFD). He would also perhaps have given GNR a breath of fresh air in a sense, a new guy who was no one's "man" (in the sense that Gilby's was Slash's man and Paul was Axl's), and a guy who came from a bit different of a musical background. The strength of GN'R was their musical diversity, like Steven bringing in a funk vibe with his drumming and his being inspired by Cameo. Dave came from a similar school and perhaps that would've invigorated them. Also, he had cred in the alternative scene, which is something which by 92 GN'R needed.

I think something very overlooked is that Slash, by the mid 90s, didn't want to share the spotlight with another guy (big name or not) on guitar. Izzy is almost totally mixed out of the Illusion records with Slash playing over him and he was mixed very low live for all but a few shows and Gilby is practically inaudible on TSI and live was also mixed low.

Slash in this period seems to have wanted to dominate the guitar sound of the band and wanted a compliant rhythm guitarist who would add basic rhythm parts and little else. The dynamic tension and trading of lead parts ala the Stones which made AFD unique was something Slash clearly did not want and was also something Axl sought to replicate.

Even post Slash, Axl spoke about that tension and tried to replicate it by having in a sense three lead guitarists all swapping parts and solos, aka AFD. I have to think that Slash would have probably objected to any guitarist who wasn't willing to be Slash's lapdog and play what he was told and not hog any of the limelight

As far as Gilby, his solo album is proof to me that he had the chops. IMO his first solo record is on par with any of Izzy's, if not in lyrical content than at least on guitar. Paul, while not a great guitarist, did have a "90s" touch IMO. His Leads on SFTD have a very choppy mid 90s feel. Not just the solo bits I mean his Lea parts in the left channel of that song. He did not have the charisma (or it seems the desire) to be in big band, but he could've easily worked either as a studio guitarist or as a West Arkeen type figure. 

As for the musical direction I do agree that I don't think Axl had a clear idea about what he wanted except for "we have to go beyond sludge rock." He was talking about this as early as 1990, and if you go back and read those interviews, he was clearly tiring of traditional hard rock as early as 1990. Remember, he was listening to and was excited by a whole bunch of the underground stuff like NiN, Jane's Addiction, Soundgarden and such. He called Faith No More the future of rock music in 1989. The UYIs were one step, and for the next record he wanted GNR to take another. I don't think it was or had to be "industrial" or "grunge" but I do agree he wanted to distill 90s rock through GNR in some way. Duff seems to have been open to the 90s. His solo record features a guest by a rapper and is close to an alternative type of sound. 

If you listen to Making of Estanged, Slash is playing an early version of Back and Forth Again and Axl is whistling and humming a melody over it. And that song is pretty country rock, even in that early version. So I don't think Axl was totally against doing traditional stuff. It just had to be good. I think what started the Snakepit war wasn't so much Slash doing a solo album as him taking songs Axl WAS interested in like Back and Forth Again along with the ones Axl rejected.

I get the feeling Axl wanted to develop Back and Forth Again and to quote Axl Slash wasn't interested in "working that hard", which probably means Slash was against spending dozens of takes perfecting it to meet "Axl's vision." At this point, to Slash, that meant taking a raw rock song and turning it into an overproduced ballad. After doing Estranged and all the music videos he was not willing to "work that hard", to make music he felt was overcooked or that would be this, in his view, pretentious thing. So he took the ball and went home and thus the war began.

Slash as we have seen isn't a guy who likes to go out of his comfort zone often. His solo records are pretty muc all the same really. Snakepit was Slash's vision for GNR's next record and it would not have lit the world on fire in 1995 and might have really injured Guns' standing as a mainstream band. If Axl is Freddie Mercury or Mick Jagger, always wanting to try something new, Slash is ACDC or Keith Richards, do the same shit, keep it simple.

It's a shame really. These guys had the world by the balls. They were among the most talented of their generation. The story of GN'R is a sad tale of "what could've been?" And what makes it sadder is that, unlike most of rock's what could've been stories, all these guys are alive. It's not like Jimi Hendrix or Jim Morrison where death stopped them. They stopped themselves.

Thats not to say they don't have a place in the history books. They earned their place. But if they had continued putting out records, even if they went through a slump of mediocre records in the mid 90s, they could've truly joined the Stones and Led Zeppelin as one of "the greats" from an artistic and cultural standpoint, and not just from a "we can fill a stadium" standpoint. 

It it really is a bummer.

And by the way, I would KILL to hear anything/everything put to tape between 1993 and 1997. Even if just instrumentals. That's my GNR holy grail. Even the Shaq rap track. I want it all.

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

"Move on" is one thing and it could be interpreted in many different ways, but moving on in a CD-ish kind of way is another thing. Axl has denied it was because of musical differences, iirc (on the forum chats and elsewhere). Slash had been citing "creative differences" as the main reason he left up to a point, but then in his book he said it wasn't because of that.

In case you (and other people here) are not in TL;DR mood, I've elaborated here and there:

 

Blackstar, I consider you an invaluable resource and I am curious on what your considered opinion overall is on the following points:
1) What sort of sound do you feel Axl wanted in that '94, 95, 96 window before Slash left?
2) Do you think anything of value was recorded by the band in that timeframe (I mean full fledged songs which simply lack vocals/melodies)?
3) What do you feel was the ultimate cause of the split?
4) What are your opinions on Gilby and Paul Huge, both in terms of their roles in GN'R and what they (could've) brought to the table musically?
 

18 minutes ago, metallex78 said:

Revisionist history my ass. No one is stating that Axl had CD fully realised back then, but Axl definitely wanted to move on from their classic sound. And that’s been stated several times by both of them - musical differences

Slash said in 95 Axl wanted to sound like Pearl Jam, which is pretty far from industrial. The main issue wasn't the MUSICAL differences, it was Axl forcing the musical issues on the band like a dictator, firing Gilby (a guy everyone liked) without band consent, forcing Paul on the band like a dictator, and then trying to sideline Slash by attempting to put Zakk Wylde in there. Along with a general lack of respect for the band as a whole. Example, making the band do Sympathy for the Devil when Slash didn't want to, only to not show up to the session and make Slash wait for hours and then talk to him through a magazine. Leaving the band in 96 and inviting Slash and Duff to join his new band as hired hands.

Slash played on an industrial MJ song in '96. I think if Axl was open to a little give and take in the mid 90s, Slash would've been fine doing whatever genre of music as long as there was respect and mutual agreement involved. Not Axl saying "You're gonna play like this on these songs." It came down to egos and Axl lacking respect for his bandmates and thinking GN'R was his band. Not musical differences.

I think it's because CD is so ballad driven that any sort of potentially mean, punky rocker type song is like water in the desert. I'm not saying I hate ballads. I'm not one of those people. But if I had it my way, Maddy, TWAT, and Prostitute would be the only ballads on the record (Catcher would be a B-Side and TIL would be a standalone single). 

17 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

I would absolutely love a proshot of Locomotive. 

Sad thing is, we know allllllll of this stuff is just sitting around locked up.

How or why GNR has never started any sort of video streaming service for the shows they have in the vault is absolutely beyond me. 

That would take time, effort and money.
The Rolling Stones have released almost every proshot concert they ever shot on DVD and BluRay. You have literally a dozen DVDs to choose from representing any live era of that band. Even shows that are considered shoddy performances (Hyde Park '69) were released. Or look at the Grateful Dead, who ENCOURAGE bootlegging, trading, and even released fan bootlegs in cleaned up form for official release. The fact that GN'R seem to refuse to wanna offer their fans anywhere the same, which only hurts their wallets and legacy, is sad. I know I would never want to show Tokyo 92 to a new fan to show them how powerful GN'R were live in their prime. It would be sort of embarrassing, actually. But that's all they're willing to give us. That and a half re recorded live record. Meanwhile, hundreds of shows from 85 to the present sit somewhere, rotting away
 

I want Brain back.
Honestly, if we can't have a full AFD lineup, my dream would be Axl, Slash, Duff, Gilby, Brain, Dizzy, Melissa. It's nothing against Richard, it's just Gilby rings more legit to me as he was there for the glory days. If they're never gonna make new music, why not? Gilby and Slash complemented eachother really well live and there would be a nostalgic element in having Gilby back.

It will be insanely sad to me if TSI stands as the last offering from Axl/Slash/Duff. As it is, any release by them now would be bitter sweet because it would feel hollow; they're middle aged men now and the zeitgeist they were part of (late 80s to mid 90s rock/meyal scene) no longer exists in any form. I would've liked to have seen GN'R bow out with an album somewhere between 94 and 96, even if it had been subpar.

1 hour ago, Waemoth said:

Back Off Bitch from Toronto and Locomotive from Shoreline Amphitheatre would be so incredible. As a sidenote, just imagine having the four Great Western Forum shows as one boxset, and the MSG shows as another. 

Used to be on Youtube.

1 hour ago, millionflies said:

that (!) + this (about Slither videos)

+ (in general)

… makes me look for an emoticon "bumps head against wall", but I only found   & 

This is frightening. Though I'm sure no one will be able to delete all the stuff, the attempt is just crazy and sad. The last days I have searched for videos on YT I used to watch only to make sure that they're still there (not all of them). A couple of days ago I had a blank video (deleted) in the top of my list of liked videos, therefore I stopped liking videos. Instead I'm going to buy a new hard drive. Really tough times.

Download everything you like off YouTube.

1 hour ago, ; D said:

Did  manage to get a rip off YouTube of the Ritz 91 incomplete proshot?

 

No

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

Sounds like it, yes.

Also a sketch of Back and Forth Again plays on the background on the Making of Estranged video (which was filmed around August-September 1993) with Axl whistling on it. So probably that one was written during the tour too.

So we probably have two of the four songs Axl wanted to work on. The question is, which were the other two?

Slash said Jizz Da Pit was a riff he had been carrying around for several years but Axl refused to touch it as he deemed it "redneck."

Thing is Duff cowrote one of the Snakepit songs though 

I do wonder if Slash/Duff had anything to do with Checkmate/Jackie Chan. In one of Duff's last interviews before quitting GN'R, conducted in 1996, he said the band was working on a song for the next Jackie Chan movie. And didn't Richard say some stuff they were working on had its origins with Slash?

Anyone else concerned Slashs words could threaten the reunion?

8 hours ago, millionflies said:

Thanks for collecting this, what a bummer While looking at different topics about European shows that took place recently or the individual topics on the songs being played during the NITL tour (the media song lists), I was surprised how many YT videos are no longer available, for example:

Does that have anything to do with the massive removals/deletions mentioned here?

Yes

I really dislike all the Taylor years records outside of Sticky, Exile, and Soup. Mick Taylor didn't have the attitude, look or musical feel for the Stones (yes, he was talented but it's like putting Buckethead in GN'R). He didn't have any chemistry with the band and didn't even wanna be there for the long haul. I also think as the 70s progressed with him the live show, which was perfect in '69, became more and more glammy and self indulgent. By '73 a Stones show was like a UYI GN'R show. They had two, sometimes three keyboardists, a whole horn section, etc. Brian and Ronnie to me fit better musically, and in terms of personality, and I prefer the more garage live performance of the Brian years, and the punky loose feel of the Ronnie years, to Mick Taylor. My favorite Stones live albums are Love You Live, Got Live If You Want It! and Still Life.

16 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

My main problem with the Stones in the mid '70s, IORR-BaB, is they started to sound like Status Quo or Slade. ''Crazy Mama'' and so forth. ''Mid '70s by-numbers British rock''.

''Crazy Mama'' reminds me of ''Crazy Horses'' by the Osmonds, a mid '70s slab of rock parody.

IORR, the song, is basicallv T. Rex's Bang a Gong

11 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

The Stones were peaking when it began to go tits up for The Fab Four. The latter had already quit touring and became divided and quarrelsome during the White Album era which is 1968, at precisely the beginning of The Stones's peak. 

I actually feel they were peaking before that. For me, after '66, after Revolver (which I feel is their peak), the Beatles are hit and miss. Sgt. Peppers is to me a very overrated record, with like, three good songs but a very dated production (compare how dated it sounds to The Doors or Piper At the Gates of Dawn, both released the same year). I like the related singles like Penny Lane better than the album. Meanwhile the Stones mature and become a polished act on Aftermath in '66, become an amazing pop band with Between the Buttons in 67, experiment with Satanic Majesties in '67 as well (when I put it against Sgt. Pepper's, Pepper loses for me. There's only two shit songs on Majesties, whereas I only enjoy three on Pepper). There's not a single band song on Beggar's Banquet, which I can't say for The White Album; Abbey Road and Let It Bleed are of the same quality level to me, and Sticky Fingers is a stronger record IMO than Let It Be.

After Pepper, every Beatles album after has good songs (but also filler) but feel like solo albums where each band member is guesting on the other's song, there's no more tight band flow to it. Of their 67-70 releases I actually like Let It Be the best, because it's the most raw/real/no BS record they ever did.