Mikey Whipwreck

6 hours ago, vloors said:

2008 2009 still millions of albums were being sold. It just kind of flopped compared to its peers in all honestly. Acdc had a wallmart exclusive but still sold just under 2 million. 

2008 https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/lil-wayne-notches-top-selling-album-of-08-1481196/

2009 https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/taylor-swift-edges-susan-boyle-for-2009s-top-selling-album-1213592/

It's inarguable that the record industry was in a free fall in 2008. Annual revenue dropped from $22-23 billion in 2001 to around $15 billion in 2008. 

https://www.statista.com/chart/4713/global-recorded-music-industry-revenues/

The record labels were in desperation mode and the Best Buy deal made the release financially viable, it was a get out of jail free card for the band and the label. I guarantee the label was hesitant to spend millions on a marketing campaign given what they'd already spent on production, but they would have had to spend many millions on a massive rollout to have a chance of recouping without that Best Buy deal 

6 hours ago, vloors said:

I felt it was more dr pepper and other media widely digging at Axl that forced its eventual release.

I imagine if Geffen never cut off Axl then we would still be waiting for CD lol

I think striking while the iron was hot for big box retailer exclusives was a key factor too. The music industry was in a really bad place in 2008 and that Best Buy deal allowed the album to break even before it even came out which was crucial for the band and the label 

Of course it significantly reduced the album's sales and visibility in the US but was better than the alternative 

7 hours ago, jacdaniel said:

I think there's a big chance that Nothing will be released 

Agreed, probably the only way we hear anything "new" in the foreseeable future is if it leaks. Maybe we get the reworked Atlas and Perhaps at some point in the next year or two but don't see anything happening beyond that. 

I still don't believe Absurd and Hard School would have been released without the Village leaks happening first 

2 minutes ago, ShadowOfTheWave said:

I don't really consider stuff like Nothing and Eye On You actual songs, more like sketch ideas. But that's just my view.

That's fair. Particularly with Nothing. 

But, I'd also argue it's not a stretch to say they worked on them more. Better only existed in rough instrumental form in the Village recordings. I don't believe Scraped, Seven or The General were on there even as rough instrumentals. Soul Monster is only there as an instrumental. So we have proof they fleshed out, finished and recorded vocals for numerous songs past 2001

1 hour ago, ShadowOfTheWave said:

While Pele was incredibly annoying and hyperbolic with his insistence that there was nothing left that we haven't heard from the leaks, I always thought he was closer to the truth than those who believed there were 20+ completed unreleased songs with Axl vocals. The fact that the CD II track list that MSL got from Axl's laptop had so many alternate versions of CD songs seemed to indicate there wasn't enough songs available to even complete a second album, let alone a third.

Eh, we've heard from enough sources that have actually heard the material, combined with the leaks, that there are at least 18-20 songs from CD era that existed in some form with vocals 

In 2006, Axl said they were working on 32 songs, 26 of which were "almost" done. Bach claimed to hear 3 albums worth of tracks which could have been an exaggeration but is in line with Axl's quote. Richard,  Dizzy and DJ all commented on a couple albums of material existing after CD

Whether they're deemed worthy of releasing, or something that Axl wants Slash and Duff to rework, is another matter but

Silkworms/Absurd, Hard School, Perhaps, Atlas, Eye On You, State of Grace, Going Down, reworked Oh My God, Nothing, the cell phone recording of The General obviously all exist with vocals, so that's ten. We know that Soul Monster, Oklahoma/Berlin and Seven exist. Don't think it's unreasonable to assume there's another 6-8 "almost finished" songs from 2002-2014 era but again existing and being something that would be viable or of interest for the current lineup to rework and release is another story 

Nm 

1 hour ago, ShadowOfTheWave said:

I think GNR was always going to fall into being a nostalgic act though, because Axl is simply not a prolific songwriter like Billy. I don't think it's fair to criticize Axl for not writing more music, he has said he suffers from writer's block and there's no point in him trying if the feeling isn't there. Hoarding completed songs for decades is a different matter.

The last part is the key. Billy not only writes a ton of songs, he also empties the vaults on a fairly regular basis 

Axl has had 1.5-2 albums worth of material in the can for some time now,  at least some of which is supposedly great, but refuses to put it out there.

I don't hold out any hope for new material recorded from scratch with the current lineup, but would gladly pay for a CD era box set that includes the rest of the BucketFinck material, different versions of the previously released songs and all of that. I understand most of the fanbase doesn't care but plenty do. And it would do absolutely no harm to anyone to put it out. Hell, Slash and Duff would gladly play it live, they've proven that with the CD songs 

48 minutes ago, 2020_Intensions said:

Yeah it's really weird watching those '09-'12 performances and how into his new music that finally got released he was and how lively and energetic he was like it was still the 90s and then since the very beginning of the reunion he's like a completely (and almost unrecognizable) different person 

Ultimately the money and convenience of the reunion was too hard to turn down. Continuing otherwise would have required new music and reformulating the band yet again, to diminishing returns. But it's never really seemed like his heart is in it. The last time we saw him with fire in his belly was Axl/DC

CD was the product of someone who cared too much. Absurd and Hard Skool were the product of someone who said "fuck it" 

43 minutes ago, Sweersa said:

I thought this thread was about that initially! I hope they keep the 8-bit intro to Atlas on the official version. 

The first minute including that part is really cool and feels like it's building toward an epic chorus but doesn't get there. Hope they keep that first minute mostly intact if it ever gets an official release, which I doubt at this point 

9 minutes ago, KeyserSoze said:

My interesting takeaway was "Since I Don't Have You" being more popular than Brownstone, Easy, AND Rocket Queen.... For a band that loves to do Covers live, I don't think they've ever busted out Since I Don't Have You, but all 3 of the latter songs are in the set night after night....

That was a surprise as well. I suppose its inclusion on Greatest Hits has boosted its reputation and popularity over the year. It's so different from most of the catalogue it probably stands out in a positive way for a lot of people 

Most interesting takeaway for me was that, in terms of daily streams, This I Love and Better have settled into the territory right beneath the biggest of Big Guns

https://kworb.net/spotify/artist/3qm84nBOXUEQ2vnTfUTTFC_songs.html

The best parts of the original are intro which would have made it a solid choice coming out of an instrumental to kick off the second half of a show. And the drums which gave the original a sense of urgency 

The new version feels like a VR B-side instrumental, and the school bell gives it a cheesy cock rock vibe you'd expect from one of the countless lame bands GnR overshadowed in the late 80s 

12 hours ago, Draguns said:

Before the reunion, Steven Tyler said that there was something very deep and personal regarding the feud of Axl and Slash. I believe this was the case as well.  I think it was more complicate than just a change in musical direction.

Not disagreeing that it eventually reached that point but that was after the breakup. 

Axl admitted he cried tears of rage when Slash quit. And things festered from there because he felt abandoned and betrayed. And I'm sure Slash felt insulted that Axl was moving forward with the name. They both had people in their camps painting the other as the devil. Not to mention all the lawsuits. 

But it's very clear Axl didn't want Slash to quit and was deeply hurt when he did. Even in 2001 he was quoted as saying he had 3 songs on CD he'd like Slash to play on if he would publicly apologize for past comments he made to the press.

Fast forward to 2009, Slash had become a "cancer" in his eyes even though they hadn't spoken directly since the 90s.

5 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

All true. If he had released that album mixed and mastered in 2000 it probably would have been accepted. If he had followed up in 2006/08 with a record with Better etc. people would have said "it's not GNR" but the quality would be hard to fight with.

Personally, I'm happy the album didn't come out in 2000 because the final versions are far superior for my taste. The demo of Chinese is not as good as the finished version largely due to Axl adding all those Bumble guitars, which really kicked it into gear.

I'd rather we got 2-3 albums instead of one. 

But to me the only song that was significantly improved by all the tinkering was TWAT. The Bucket outro and real orchestration lifted it to a much higher level. Prostitute benefitted from the beefed up guitars and orchestration, and I like the guitar work on the outro of the album version of Catcher. But for the most part it certainly wasn't worth fiddling around with these songs for another years to the detriment of the band members who actually created the music on the album, and the fans. 1999-2002 he had an insanely talented band that could've done a lot more and he flushed it away (along with his prime and whatever musical ambition he had) by refusing to release their music. 

21 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Yes, the "Illusions way" (i.e. three -two, in that case - solo albums in one, as Axl had put it) could have been the way out in the mid-90s, if musical differences was the sole or main issue. But the fact that they weren't able to do it suggests that the issues and differences between them were much deeper and complicated than that.

That's the thing though, I don't think the issues were that deep or complicated. It just came down to Axl and Slash being too stubborn and immature to compromise and communicate like adults. 

Go read some of the interviews from back then.

Slash was openly negative about Paul Huge. Axl and how Axl brought him in without anyone else's input. Axl countered that Slash never suggested an alternative and pushed back on his other suggestions like Zakk Wylde.

Slash said Axl was treating Guns like his solo band and wanted to make songs that sounded like Pearl Jam, who Slash hated. Axl claimed Slash refused to let him have any input on the songs he brought to the table then turned around and used songs that were supposed to be for Guns on the Snakepit album. 

Then after the break up they both blamed each other and Axl had a lot of resentment because he claimed Slash told a bunch of lies that were taken as fact by the public and the press. But actually leading up the the split it all seemed to be ego and creative differences 

19 hours ago, 2020_Intensions said:

Axl hasn't done a music video (to our knowledge) in nearly 30 years ... Why would anybody here think that nearly 60 year old GnR would do videos? Why I don't care about this video being "phoned" in ... Would never in a million years expect an actual music video from this band. 

This reminds me of the rumor that they shot a video for Catcher in Shanghai back in 2002

32 minutes ago, -W.A.R- said:

Well Slash had the freedom to do what what he wanted whereas Axl stubbornly stuck with the burden of the GNR name.

Axl definitely existed in a prison of his own creation. Refusing to give up the name but unable to take the criticism that came with the decision. 

Thanks to the Zutaut locker we know he had an album that was basically done in 2000. That version of CD with Oh My God, Atlas, State of Grace and Perhaps in place of Shackler's, If The World, Sorry and This I Love would have been a very good album in the context of 2000/2001 rock(opinions may vary). If he'd released that then the follow up with Better, Sorry, ITW, Shackler's, Elvis/Soul Monster, Oklahoma, Quick Song and whatever else his reputation would be much better, even if the experiment failed. Because the reunion was always going to be there.

As it stands he wasted a lot of time, money and talent (his own and others) and now he's creatively burned out. Is what it is.

On 12/2/2021 at 4:17 PM, Ixtlan said:

That’s what I thought, too. For 19 million. Lol. And now his ex manager is the guy acquiring a lot of these catalogs. Looks like Axl was dead wrong about Merck.

It was a 20 year deal. Rights revert to Axl in late 2024 or early 2025.

Might actually explain some of his reluctance to release music. The rights might be worth a bit more if the infamous vault contains more unreleased material 

Don't really get the original post's premise.

Slash has been very active since leaving Guns. Despite his prolific catalog he rarely (if ever) reached the heights he did 1987-1991. He mostly churns out competent but unremarkable hard rock and rarely strays from his comfort zone. Contraband and the self-titled solo were very good albums, the rest of his output is mostly forgettable, in no small part due to his questionable choices of singers. 

Axl had a more ambitious plan to expand his sound and experiment with different genres but got cold feet because he can't handle the criticism. In the end I thought CD was a good but pretty straightforward arena rock album, not that a big departure from UYI aside from incorporating another decade's worth of musical influences and a zillion layers of instrumentation. Now he's creatively spent and has zero motivation to write and record new songs.

So I'm not sure what difference "betting on" Axl or Slash would have made. Their careers would've turned out the same. What's obvious they and their fans would've been better off if they could've worked out their differences in 1995. Think about it. They left hundreds of millions of dollars on the table because they couldn't agree on a rhythm guitarist and a creative direction. Why they couldn't just agree to do a double album with 12 Slash hard rock songs and 12 Axl industrial/trip hop songs and piano ballads, we'll never know. 

On a side note they both need Izzy more than they'll ever admit. 

16 minutes ago, Sweersa said:

I'm one of those weirdos who loves Shackler's Revenge, Scraped, and If The World. I love the Bucket driven songs. Wish we got more!

I'm a big fan of CD. I like Perhaps a lot. State of Grace and Eye On You too even if they sound unfinished. Atlas is alright, good vocals and solid drums, probably the song that would benefit most from Slash reworking it because aside from the solo the instrumental is flat out boring, like it almost isn't there. 

Just frustrating they had an album 90% done in November 2000 and they sat on it for 8 more years. And still no sign of the follow up even though it's been more or less done since 2014. Makes no sense that they don't just empty the vault, get Izzy in the studio to make one final 10-12 track album,  one more tour and call it a day 

Instead it looks like they'll just continue the interminable Greatest Hits tour until it's no longer financially viable then just quietly disband or go on hiatus. If we're "lucky" maybe another EP with reheated versions of Perhaps, Atlas and Oh My God 

35 minutes ago, Chuerta86 said:

Get rid of the the bell, give it some cowbell and have Adler drum on it and I think Absurd could be a winner. Out of all the songs I think it's the perfect song for his groove. As it stands I can't take it seriously; I keep thinking of Saved By The Bell.

Yeah the school bell is such a cheesy 80s cock rock trope, the type of thing these guys would have laughed at back then.

The official version of Hard School is a decent song, and while they did have worse songs in their prime, they weren't releasing them as singles. It's also worse than the 20 year old demo in basically every way. Particularly the drums which added a sense of urgency to the original that's completely lacking here. 

Absurd is a joke of a song and legitimately among the worst things they've ever released. And I kind of liked Silkworms. It was a dumb song, and was never going to be accepted by most of the GnR fanbase, but it was entertaining in a way, ridiculous but had some legitimate energy and venom. This version it sounds like they spliced the lyrics and instrumental from a pair of Z-grade Spaghetti Incident throwaways. But releasing it as the first "new" single from the reunion is a grade A troll job

10 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

So the 18 comes from you believing two albums are completely finished and that they each contain at least 9 songs? 

18 comes from Axl saying they were working on 32 songs and CD having 14 songs on it, and all subsequent evidence pointing to there being at least 18 more or less completed tracks and 1.5 or 2 more albums worth of material. Thanks to the Zutaut locker we have a pretty clear picture of what was complete as of November 2000 that didn't end up on CD. Hard School, Silkworms, State of Grace, Atlas, Perhaps were essentially finished songs. Potentially a reworked Oh My God is part of the discussion. Eye On You may or may not be complete in that form. Nothing is incomplete. So again, the other 10 tracks comprising the 18 almost certainly feature vocals from 2001 or later. What are those songs?

The General, Soul Monster, Thyme, Seven (title changed?), Monstrosity, Tonto, Light My Fire, Going Down, Oklahoma (title change?), Cuban Skies, 4 Heavens (assuming this  isn't referencing KOHD covers), possibly others that have been mentioned along the way like Down By The Ocean, Ides of March, Quick Song. 

5 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

And you know this from? 

Based on official sources and unofficial ones that have since proven at least partially accurate.

Axl confirmed were working on 32 songs, 26 of which were basically done in early 2006.

Bach talking about hearing 3 albums of completed material multiple times. 

Billboard article where a source confirmed the existence of another full album (or more) worth of material that was supposedly coming out in 2016 before the reunion came together. 

Ron stating that there were another couple albums worth of material from the CD era.

And other "unofficial" sources, such as ones who listed songs like Going Down and Tonto as tracks being considered for CD2 years before the tracks either leaked or were officially confirmed. 

All adds up to at least 18 tracks, with at least 10 that have never been heard before by the public, other than perhaps in instrumental demo form.

There were 18 finished tracks with full vocals in 2014 that were options for CDII. That's a fact. The only songs in that discussion where vocals were finished prior to 2001 were Atlas, Hard School, Silkworms, Perhaps and State of Grace. Possibly the reworked Oh My God although it's unclear if that was on the list of 18. Also unclear if the list includes Eye On You or Nothing with verses added. At a minimum there are 10 completed tracks that we've never heard vocals for and they feature vocals laid down after November 2000. 

The question is whether we'll hear any of them if they don't leak.

14 hours ago, 2020_Intensions said:

Which is basically where we've been since 2001 ...

1999-2008 was a goldmine compared to 2009-2021. New music was debuted live and/or leaked with some regularity. 

Virtually nothing has happened since outside the 2019 leaks which seemingly created no sense of urgency for releasing new material. In 2006 the release of CD felt imminent even though it took another 2 years. 

Hard Skool and Absurd feel like table scraps, with album on the horizon.