Brunzopolis

Gonna have to check out a few of these I'm unfamiliar with. 

Rio 91', the second night, is a show I keep going back to.  Great performances of Pretty Tied Up, DTJ, and PC.  Great energy and charisma from Axl and Slash for that show.

Finck and Bucket make 02' GNR worth listening to.  It's not until recently that I've been able to 'tune out' Axl's voice on those shows, which lets me appreciate just how good the rest of the band was (well, minus Brain, for the most part).

I would add current day "Skeptic" culture, itself, to the list.

That whole scene, to me, seems to share similarities with religious fundamentalism. Which is funny, since that is something they are always railing against.

Thanks everyone.

Depends on what type of information you are looking for.

Now that I think about it, stuff about the songs themselves, and stuff on Page. Like, a bio on Page I suppose, but not one that is overly fawning.

Any experts here that want to chime in?

By "best", I suppose I mean most accurate.

I don't know the Niven, Izzy story can you tell what happened or post a link I can read it.

http://www.mygnrforum.com/index.php?/topic/211149-doug-goldstein-interview-with-mitch-lafon/?p=3949378

Reminds me of the story about Niven and Izzy going to a voodoo priestess, or something.

I wonder if in that book that Sorelle Saidman was writing, she picked up on any of these threads - Axl's beliefs/experiences, this story of Zutaut's, the Izzy black magic thing, etc.

Yeah, I can see this.

It would fit in with Axl's world domination/grandiose thinking/shoot for the stars mindset, that you sometimes get the sense he has - either by things he's said outright, or implied, or just by reading into his actions.

Maybe he's mellowed too much, and these traits are no longer there, but maybe not. I think Axl is maybe crazy enough to still have these types of ideas, even at his current age.

But too, it may be that he doesn't even know what he has, musically, in The Vault; and so therefore his decision to withhold stuff, wasn't necessarily a conscious decision. It just "happened" that way. Because that's sometimes how these things work.

I love love love shit like this, and Matt is very thoughtful and well-spoken here.

God there's so much potential with things like this. Imagine having Clink and other techs., and all the band (even Izzy), and whoever else has something interesting to say, all sit down and have talks like this. A couple hours out of their day. Minimal costs to produce (I would imagine). And if they want it to be a profit thing, I dunno, there's got to be a way. Kickstarter it. Whatever. This is shit fans love.

QOTSA and GNR are my two favorite bands of all time. But I'm not sure about this idea.

I think just having Izzy involved 100% in any new music creation would be far more important than who the producer is.

I don't have any answers. Just more questions.

What is 'rock', anyway?

What is 'relevant'? Can we use in the word 'popular' in it's place?

It's very interesting to me that we are always trying to "save" rock music. Do you ever hear the question: "Who will save country music?", or "Who will save dance music?" Maybe there are people out there asking that, but surely it's asked less often. Why is that?!?? This is fascinating to me.

I think it must have something to do with what we REALLY mean when we say 'rock music'.

It was a decent show, I thought. Though I'd only really watch when I cared about the guests.

Trunk said somewhere about how they always had trouble with VH1 and never really had much freedom. Maybe they'll get on somewhere else and have freedom. I bet the show would be much better.

Was the little intro cartoon shown only at this show, and RIR3? Is it known who made it/the story behind it?

You can write masterpieces at any age if you are hungry and inspired.

Obviously, but evidently most people have their creative peek not when they are middle aged.

creativity comes from passion/hunger..its got nothing to do with age. The reason that some artists come out with shit after a certain age is because the money comes piling in and they have all the recognition that they want..they've got no drive..nothing left to prove anymore. When they were struggling with life and girls didn't even notice them, they were busy writing tunes and playing guitar in their bedroom all day.

By all accounts, the subject of creativity is complicated. We don't fully understand it. If we did, we'd just add 1 + 1 and get 2 whenever we wanted. You can't (it seems) "will" a great song into existence, no matter how much you may want to. It's not like starting a business or an exercise regimen or something.

Thinking of all the great musicians who have a track record of previous hits, who then creatively dry up...surely some of them, at some point down the line, were as motivated/"wanting to prove" as they'd ever been. Maybe they lose the money/women/fame; or maybe they don't but those things lose their value for the person. Whatever the case, surely this has happened. The person was as hungry as before but they aren't able to reach previous heights.

The word "inspiration" has a long history. It's maybe a special word. I get the sense that it is, and that some of it's meaning has been lost. In any event, a lot of stories about how so and so was "inspired" when they picked up their guitar and an original, great riff came out, or like how when Einstein came up with E=MC squared, share similarities. Mainly, that it seemed "easy" to the person. They weren't sitting there going: "Must...come up with...new riff. Garrrr! Must...focus. Must...get...famous."

Maybe certain mental states facilitate things. My guess would be that age might be a relevant factor in that younger people might be more likely to find themselves in this state. But maybe it's not the most important factor. If you have desire/hunger, this would probably mean you put in a lot of previous work - and maybe when the major creative spark comes, it's because of all the previous work. Like, the brain is busy working away without you knowing, then one day the creative thing just pops out, and it seems easy because you weren't aware of the entire process. I mean, that's probably what science would say. Maybe it's true. I like to think the exact mechanism is a bit more mysterious, and that there are elements at play that will never be able to be "measured", scientifically.

No one even mentioned Human Being here? That outro still gives me goosebumps.

I only listen to Human Being, SIDHY, Black Leather and Hair of the Dog from TSI

For me, it's Hair of the Dog, Human Being, and then to a lesser extent, Down on the Farm. Axl is glorious on Hair of the Dog. I've listened to HOTD, and HB about 10 000 times more than anything on CD.

But some of the leaked CD stuff, like CD (the song), The Blues, and I.R.S., I've listened to a lot more than the remaining tracks on TSI.

Recently, on another thread, someone mentioned the production and sound quality of TSI, and how it's really good. I'm in complete agreement. I think it's much better than the UYI's. The drums and guitar on Hair of the Dog....I don't know...they just sound so rich and bright, or something. I just wish Axl's voice on HOTD was higher in the mix on that song, on certain parts.

I think most great, groundbreaking, grade 'A' music is made/written by young-ish people who are usually fucked up in some way, and who are full of desire and are emotionally "charged". Being like this and being in this state, opens a doorway to the places where great music come from.

I don't believe most (or even any) of these conditions exist anymore for the GNR members. I'm not saying they can't make really good, new music, but I don't see them picking up where they left off. And even where they 'left off' was pretty different from where they started. When it ended, they were already several years past the period when most of the best stuff was written. As in, most of the best stuff on the UYI's came from an earlier period.

Lemmy was nearly 70 and wrote Aftershock, one of the best albums of his career.

In that theory I mention, the "young-ish" thing is tied in with all the other things. i.e. the people for whom all the other conditions exist, are usually young people. Most people, as they get older, mellow out, deal with their issues (or at least become more aware of them), and find more peace.

By most accounts, Lemmy didn't change a great deal over the course of his life. He was young at heart. At least that's my understanding. I don't know a ton about him and Motorhead though. Maybe I'm wrong. And too, maybe my whole theory is wrong. It's just an idea.

I think most great, groundbreaking, grade 'A' music is made/written by young-ish people who are usually fucked up in some way, and who are full of desire and are emotionally "charged". Being like this and being in this state, opens a doorway to the places where great music come from.

I don't believe most (or even any) of these conditions exist anymore for the GNR members. I'm not saying they can't make really good, new music, but I don't see them picking up where they left off. And even where they 'left off' was pretty different from where they started. When it ended, they were already several years past the period when most of the best stuff was written. As in, most of the best stuff on the UYI's came from an earlier period.

There is absolutely no question about it. Slash is far and away more iconic. EVERYONE knows who he is. Not everyone know who Axl is anymore. Far from it.

This is most likely true, I think.

'Iconic' can mean different things. The way most of us are using it in this thread, is simply something like "Widely known. Highly respected and admired". But an additional meaning is that it refers to something that is the perfect example of something, because it is SO like that 'thing'. And so, I think Slash would be the choice here. If you say to someone: "What is a guitar rock god?" or "Who is a famous guitar player?", Slash in his top hat probably pops into the minds of most people.

To me, a term more fitting to Axl, would be 'legendary', because there's a sort of whole mythology about him. Not everyone may know who he is anymore, but most people who are even moderately into music, probably do. They likely have heard some of the stories about this or that, or how he's a huge dick, or that he's actually really misunderstood, or stories about the making of ChiDem and how long that took, etc.

At around 11:50 he mentions Axl not wanting to "squeak" on stage.

Do you think Goldstein is referring to his voice, specifically, or is "squeak" just a synonym here for a poor performance overall?

Brain and Ferrer never sound 'right' to me. When I watch nugnr gigs, I keep noticing the drums, but in a negative way.

You're not the only one.. at least Frank anyway.. I don't remember it as much with Brain but I haven't seen much from him..

You know who plays the shit spot on is Brent Fitz..

Frank's drums sound at a huge distance from the stage... very stringy and aloof. As if he's thumping on an electronic drum machine. I blame the sound/his kit.

As a matter of fact a lot of metal bands these days have the same kinda sound... very hard to listen too. Maybe its a trend.

The technical term is "drum triggers" and it is indeed a trend in recent years. Give me the classic, natural dynamics of the drum kit anyday.

So I looked up drum triggers. So...hitting the the real drum 'triggers' a digital sample of a drum? So basically the drummer is playing Guitar Hero/Rock Band?!??

I suppose that's one way of looking at it.

However, not quite. It's not entirely electronic. The "real" drum sound is still there as well. How much you hear the "triggered" sounds depends on the mix. Let's say the bass and snare are triggered. Every time the bass drum or snare are hit, the triggered electronic sample will also be heard. The problem is that generally all natural dynamics are lost, especially if the triggers are high in the mix. Every single bass and snare hit will sound identical. That's why it so popular in technical metal music - for those big double bass rhythms they want every hit to sound precise.

That's so lame.

So this is quite widespread, is it? Do you know for sure if Frank plays a live setup like this?

http://talkingmetal.com/digital/2016/01/12/talking-metal-580-featuring-mike-orlando-doug-goldstein/

Haven't listened yet, myself.

Brain and Ferrer never sound 'right' to me. When I watch nugnr gigs, I keep noticing the drums, but in a negative way.

You're not the only one.. at least Frank anyway.. I don't remember it as much with Brain but I haven't seen much from him..

You know who plays the shit spot on is Brent Fitz..

Frank's drums sound at a huge distance from the stage... very stringy and aloof. As if he's thumping on an electronic drum machine. I blame the sound/his kit.

As a matter of fact a lot of metal bands these days have the same kinda sound... very hard to listen too. Maybe its a trend.

The technical term is "drum triggers" and it is indeed a trend in recent years. Give me the classic, natural dynamics of the drum kit anyday.

So I looked up drum triggers. So...hitting the the real drum 'triggers' a digital sample of a drum? So basically the drummer is playing Guitar Hero/Rock Band?!??

That's so fucking rad, Blackjacker.

So the music files themselves that you put on the pinsound board...are they just mp3's? Does the pinsound board have like a flashdrive on it or something?

Yep. WAV files, and the PinSound board has a USB socket - edit the audio on the PC, plug the drive into the PinSound, play a game and see what you've fucked up and what works, then pop the drive back into the PC for another round of edits.

Lots of iteration, and trial-and-error, but playtesting is the only way to really see what works and doesn't. I originally had the bright idea that Axl's "We go on stage around 9" line from Brownstone would be perfect in place of the 'woosh' sound that's played when you hit the "Add Band Member" lane and get another guy on-stage. And it was! Perfect length, and thematically it couldn't be a better fit. But after 3-4 times hearing it it was easy to see how it would drive you fucking crazy hearing that every time you got someone onstage.

What about speakers? Do people upgrade speakers on pins? I imagine the originals maybe didn't need to be very good since the audio was so crummy, or no?

Something approaching the better performances of the past 10 years.

But I'll always hold out a degree of hope that he can one day sing again like he did from 88-93. Not that he sounded exactly the same during each of those years, but to me, all those years sound "good" (though towards end of the tour in 93 things were starting to change a little). And even though there were times in 06 and 2010 where he sounded a lot better than he did at anytime post 93, he was still not in the same league as 88-93.

The whole subject is so interesting to me, but confusing and frustrating too. I wish I understood singing better, or at least that we could hear from someone that is, who has really looked at the subject in-depth.

This is the closest thing I've ever found. There's a lot of speculation in it, like the stuff about having surgery sometime post 94, pre HOB gig in 2000 - I mean that's never been confirmed, but makes a lot of sense since how else could his voice change so dramatically from the show where he played Come Together with Springsteen, until HOB and RIR 3 in 00'-01'?

Then there are those few quotes from Moby, talking about 98-99, where he said Axl would be reticent to sing, and whenever someone asked him (Axl) about it, he'd get upset. Then there are the quotes from Youth (Killing Joke/producer on CD for spell) saying that at one point Axl hadn't sung for 18 months(?!)

Check out the LA shows from December 2006. Axl sounds every bit as good as he did in 1992/1993. It's almost scary how well he handles even Sweet Child O'Mine - he's always struggled with that one in the tonality department (save for maybe the 1988 Rifz show) but suddenly he knocks it out of the park.

Even in the early days Axl had some vocal struggles. His voice at Donington 1988 was pretty shot (although sounds kind of cool as a result), and for most of 1991 it was like he swallowed glass. 1992/1993 he seemed to find a good balance.

OK, so I watched Jungle, SCOM, and Nightrain. Probably the best I've heard post 93. Thanks for telling me about this.

But...they're still not as good as anything pre 93. He is singing differently than he did pre 93. I'll try to explain what I hear:

On SCOM in particular, it sounds like maybe he just took some drags off his oxygen tank? Like, his voice has all this volume, but there's no "ooomph" behind it. The voice is flying out of his mouth with seemingly no effort. In some ways that I don't have the words for, it is quite similar to a pre 93 SCOM, but in other ways, it is very different.

It's like...his voice is "arriving" at similar place to the old days, but he's taking a completely different "route" to get there, and you can hear it. That's what it sounds like to me.

I don't know if totally understand the 'head voice' vs. 'chest voice' thing, but maybe this is what this is? He's singing in his 'head' voice here, whereas pre 93' he used his 'chest' voice?

That is very, very cool, Blackjacker! Would love to see a vid, if you are able to do that.

I imagine the amount of work involved would indeed, be great. So cool that you are doing this.

Way late, but here's an in-progress video from a couple days ago. A horrible video, actually - with my iPhone balanced on the machine and the glass still on, so there's all kinds of glare. You really can't see much so thankfully this video's all about the audio.

Most of the music is pretty much sorted out, except for Gilby and Duff modes (they share a music background track, and Gilby mode then runs the motorcycle noise on top of that - I'm still trying to sort the best way to handle those two modes.) SFX and callouts are a work in progress, but I'm definitely closer to being finished than being started.

Getting proper, quality tracks in the machine TRANSFORMS the playing experience. It really is a different machine with the PinSound board installed.

Video's at the bottom - it's kinda long (12 mins) so here's a cheat sheet to the major music/SFX points. Starts from power-off, so you can see/hear the PinSound boot process.

0:20 boot.wav starts

0:36 background civil war

0:39 mode start - matt

0:48 encore

1:15 add band member

1:24 tick tock

1:30 mode start - slash

1:39 kickback (car rev)

2:21 coma is lit

2:33 mode start - gilby

3:11 add band member

3:14 mode start - coma

3:59 extra ball awarded

4:24 add band member

4:48 extra ball start

4:54 mode start - snakepit

5:06 add band member

5:54 mode start - dizzy ramps

6:28 mode start - duff

7:06 mode start - axl 3 ball

8:06 mystery

8:14 mode start - riot

9:57 add band member via trigger (no trigger sound)

11:37 match sequence - new chick laugh and "oh dude" voice

11:43 game over outro music

That's so fucking rad, Blackjacker.

So the music files themselves that you put on the pinsound board...are they just mp3's? Does the pinsound board have like a flashdrive on it or something?