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What is southern rock? If it’s defined as lynyrd skynyrd and the like than there isn’t much there other than a few influences here and there. Probably no more than a band like Van Halen had. I remember reading once axl said he listened to a lot of Lynyrd skynyrd before recording the vocal track to SCOM.. you can definitely hear that southern... yodel? Obviously not a yodel but I hear a similar tone a lot of lynyrd songs have. 

yesterdays first 12 seconds sounds like a slight steel guitar peppered country song. KOHD, 14 years, its all there. 

I think it was an Izzy thing. That ju ju hounds record was basically southern rock. 

1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

Personal profits to ATWA, true Mansonite

I’ve always wondered if that last little part was referencing ATWA. Axl didn’t totally demean him like most, and almost seems to be tipping his hat to him in a way. For anyone that doesn’t know, ATWA stands for Air-Trees-Water-Animals and is non profit charity ran by Manson and that younger girl Star who they tried to marry a few years ago and got the usual Manson sensationalized media treatment.

This has always perplexed me in trying to decode this press release. Axl says some things that are flat out untrue about the song and Manson, but doesn’t go over the top in demonizing him. 

Manson was indeed very tied to Hollywood before the summer of 69. Axl is completely wrong in thinking it was written by Dennis Wilson. Manson wrote the song and recorded it August 9, 1968, exactly 1 year before those murders. In fact all the songs on that Lie album were recorded 1 year prior exactly. I forget the record producers name who released that album after his arrest, but Manson was very well known in those circles and on the verge of a capital records deal with producer Terry Melcher, until he was arrested. They were also going to film a Woodstock-esq documentary about “The family Jams” which was the music group living on Spahn Ranch,  which is now referred to as the “Manson family”. Dennis Wilson and co. Ripped off Manson in stealing his song cease to exist for their 20/20 album without crediting Manson which must be what axl is referencing.  It wasn’t so much to do with Dennis ripping Manson off, they were actually friends and lived together for a time, but more to do with The Beach Boys mafia connected manager ripping Manson off willingly behind dennis’s Back. Enter the Beatles theory which takes attention off one of the motives for what actually happened which is the theft of a song by The Beach Boys. It’s all mafia connected as I said and has a lot to do with JFK, Elvis, Reagan, drugs, etc. when you really get into it, you see how bizarre this case really gets. Like a making a murderer on steroids.

Anyway, The title of the album “lie: the love and terror cult” is a play on that famous life magazine cover with his mugshot that was titled “life: the love and terror cult”. 

It’s a great album for what it’s worth. Whatever your thoughts on Manson it’s hard to deny his talent. He’s like hank willams meets bob Dylan. More lynyrd skynyrd then Helter skelter.

If you really want to get into the rabbit hole with Manson’s music, someone is lying and it could be Axl. Nikolas Shreck was the lead singer of a band called Radio Werewolf. He claims that in 87, he was recording an album in the same studio as Guns N’ Roses. Radio werewolf has a lot of bizzare songs sung from the perspective of a serial killer or a nazi, or in this case, a song about Manson  called “Charlie’s girls”. Anyway, Shreck claims Axl was interested in Manson and knew nothing of his musical career at that time.  The interview is on youtube. That’s a total contradiction to what axl said here about discovering it. Shreck has become the main Manson “historian” and had the only book written about Manson that is actually based in reality. Marilyn Manson was very influenced by Shreck to say the least. Without radio werewolf, Manson might not have ever made it back to mainstream in the 90s.

Another odd tidbit about this song was in some form or another, Manson got “paid” for it with the help of Axl. After he was convicted of criminal charges in 71, the civil suits began. Voytek frykofski’s (one of the people murdered) nephew who lived in Poland sued Manson in a victim relief lawsuit. He won so Manson had to pay and the only way he could was taking the money made from his image, books, music, etc. So like anytime someone donated to his commissary, that money went to the relief fund so Charles could never buy anything from the canteen like other inmates. That changed in 94 when Geffen settled the victim lawsuit in an attempt to minimize any association with Manson and gnr/geffen but by doing so they relieved the debt and you can now donate to Manson’s commissary. Also the nephew who was getting the profit was stabbed to death in a strange murder in Poland, again, tied to the mafia. So that is payment in some form at least. I started a topic on here awhile ago that goes into more detail if you are interested.

54 minutes ago, Liquor & Whores said:

No, I asked for interviews with people who worked on ChD, Duff didn't

The link I provided is literally full of quotes and interviews of people involved from 93-08.

http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?id=5059

I always thought that was the best resource for CD history.

The fact some of you guys know who is playing what is impressive as fuck to me and I wish I had the ear for it. All I know about guitars is Eddie ate dynamite good bye Eddie. I'll keep practicing. 

I listen to Friday night is killing me and it shocks me they weren't more popular in the early 90s. They have that gin blossoms/ dumb and dumber soundtrack vibe that 93-96 was known for. Loose ends, never aim to please and the title track have 90s alternative hit written all over it.

Just now, Tom-Ass said:

Yup and 70's hard rock with Nazareth.. It has Beatles on it?

Just now, soon said:

oh, cool.  Never noticed that.  the main riff was a clear lift of that to begin with so cool they made the reference.  thanks!

That's how I always heard t anyway. I thought it said something about daytripper in the booklet? But I haven't seen that in years. 

1 hour ago, soon said:

Beatles?

The end of hair of the dog has the guitar intro of day tripper.

I see it as more than a punk cover album. 50s doo-wop to punk to soundgarden to Beatles to Manson, it has it all. It introduced me to a ton of music I probably never would have heard if not.

I always loved the drumming on it. Matt's loose as a goose.  I wonder what uyi would sound like with that production?

2 hours ago, wasted said:

Joez Diaz!

He's great with the flying Jew! 

5 minutes ago, EvH said:

The fade out and in during the outro soli scream unfinished, to me. Lazy trick.

Interesting. I always saw it as clever because if you are listening to the album, it leads nicely into November Rain. 

Everything was roses when we held onto the guns. 

I always liked that line in locomotive, "you can use your illusion let it take you where it may". It's like axls version of Timothy Leary's tune in, turn on, drop out.

I'm not sure where this went. All things aside I thought it was a nice song and an interesting little factoid. At a certain point I'm empathetic to Manson in spite of anything that happened. The fear Manson can still generate almost 50 years later is amazing. If you watch his interviews, he's more like a rambling Buddhist monk influenced by beatnik poetry of the 50s. For a caveman to think use brain to compute is a no no too difficult. Much easier to read have an opinion with only headlines for sure.

Trent reznor felt the guilt? Give me a break, he felt he guilt of his own consciousness in that house. Manson did not nor was accused of killing those people. You can keep the boogie man thing going and he turned them on with "dope and sex". At what point does individual responsibility come in honestly? Have you ever smoked pot or done acid? I could just as easily say those might scare you away from violence. The prosecution said it drove them too it. 48 years later pot is legal in California. But it drove the crime of the century in the 60s? Those people did what they did for themselves. There are so many misconceptions it's impossible to even try to explain. Manson might be the most interesting historical figure for me. The only regular man to be convicted of having the power of the presidency or dictator. Which is the ability to send people to kill for him. Hitler, Bin Laden, Manson, Bush, Obama, what's the difference?  

The tough thing with Manson is like with any other conspiracy theory. If I tell you Oswald didn't kill JFK, our minds instantly go cover up. The ying yang of the minds judgement. It's not always that simple. Manson isn't entirely innocent in the sense of the American justice or law. He shot a guy, cut another's ear, not off, but helped tape it up, lol. But you've got to view it from the street view. His perspective of no family, his upbringing in a prison as a kid because no adult was there to sign his release to their custody. We can talk recidivism rates of normal people and if I say "well, a lot of people charged with crimes say that crime gravitates to them after." That's why 60% of people arrested are back in jail within a year or something like that. I think when you live on the street, you live on the street. It's like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder how I keep from going under. The people he did do stuff to also were not innocent, one was an FBI informant who was killed later by mansons friend bobby beausole, the other he shot had kidnapped susan Atkins I think it was over a drug debt. Manson gave him a chance and he didn't take it. The guy also never went to the cops because it was all drug related. This entire case is drug trade related, visa vi the rich people killed. Manson represents the part of us that we don't want to talk about because we know the potential is there. The question should become is it ethical,in the era of social justice, to house a guy who by the states admission did not kill, nor was even present at the crime scene, in a solitary cell for 50 years. There is actually a California conspiracy statute that says if you weren't at the crime scene, they can only keep you 18 years. It's all politics at this point. It's bought and sold. Which brings back the original point of did axl/geffen, willingly or not, help improve his quality of life if there is such a thing by covering that song and paying off an impossible relief fund. I think that's noble.

The thing about the baby being ripped out of her body didn't happen either but you'd have to ask Susan Adkins and Charles "tex" Watson about that. Here is a mind fuck... the guy who actually stuck the knife and killed all the people is a reformed prison preacher appearing on the 700 club. The guy who was in San Diego the first night, and not at the house the 2nd night, is in solitary confinement. Just think about that. Really think.  I'll throw you a bone and say ok, Manson had them do it. So it's possible for Tex to be reformed, have kids and a wife in prison, sell books, appear on Jesus shows, but no redemption possible for the guy who said "go do it." Hmmm. we each believe what we want to so if you need a boogie man to help you feel more secure he's a great one. Here's an interesting thing to look up, the sex tape of roman Polanski and Sharon Tate having a bisexual 3some with another guy. And the drug trade that was running out of that house....... No one is as innocent or as guilty as we think.

I’m going to start off by saying this might be controversial and I don't claim to know any of this for certain, it's just piecing this all together over the years is very interesting to me. There is even a video of Charles Manson talking about Guns N Roses from 1997. 

Axl may have been the catalyst to Charles Manson finally getting monetary credit for his music, though in an odd way, when GNR released a cover of ‘Look at your game, girl’ on TSI? in 1993.

Also I think Axl’s use of his image on T Shirts and thanking him with “Thanks Chaz” at the end of the song were a way of showing Manson gratitude for the song.

-In 1971, Manson is convicted of 9 counts of 1st degree murder. Though not guilty himself of the physical act, he is convicted on Conspiracy and is in prison still to this day.

- Later in 1971, a federal lawsuit for wrongful death was filed against Charles Manson by Wojciech Frykowski’s family. He was a victim in the Tate-Labianca murders.

-His family won the  lawsuit against Manson and were awarded a “Victim Relief Fund” of $500,000 with a judgement that could be renewed every 10 years, and was, in 1981 and 1991 on the basis that Manson’s notoriety has prolonged grief. Any royalty Manson would have gotten from using his image or his music, including books written about him, TV, interviews, movies, etc. would have to go to pay this victim relief fund, forever essentially. Even if you sent him prison commissary, it’s taken for the relief fund.

-It’s estimated that by 1993, 22 years after the judgement, Frykowski’s son Bartek had collected $1.4 million. This is sort of where Geffen and Guns N Roses come in.

-Axl decides he wants to release a cover of Look at your game girl. It’s released as a hidden track on The Spaghetti Incident? in 1993, amid complaints.

-To avoid controversy, Geffen alleged they had no idea it was written by Manson, and they don’t want him to get royalties. In order to avoid having Manson affiliated with the royalties by way of the relief fund, Geffen asked to be served with the judgement from 1991, assuming the legal responsibility and paid the settlement off in full to Bartek Frykowski , alleviating Charles Manson from any legal obligation.  Here are the court documents:

http://www.mansonsbackporch.com/uploads/3/4/6/0/34602785/3035557_orig.jpg

http://www.mansonsbackporch.com/uploads/3/4/6/0/34602785/7411020_orig.jpg

-In addition to paying in full the victim relief fund of Manson, Geffen agreed to pay .06 cents for every 1 million albums sold to Bartek Frykowski, for Guns cover of Manson’s song.

-But here is a point I'm missing... how or why is that ok or even possible? If the victim relief fund was paid off, why isn’t Manson credited with monetary compensation at that point for what he sang and wrote and released? What exactly is Bartek Frykowski’s justification for $60K profit for every 1 million albums sold by GNR's TSI?, after the victim relief fund is settled? The relief fund created his claim to the money. In the months after the criminal conviction before the civil, this payment did not exist, so why does it after the contract is fulfilled?

-Is it possible Axl knew this while they were recording TSI? or after talking about doing a cover of it? When did he start wearing those Manson shirts? 92? 93? Why did he say “Thanks Chaz” at the end of the song?

-By doing this, Geffen actually helped Charles Manson though, and in this way Axl was the catalyst. For example, prior to this, if you were to send commissary to Manson he likely wouldn’t receive any of it and it would go to his victim relief fund. Now, people send Manson money in prison and theoretically it is his to use and has been since 1994 since he no longer has a legal obligation to the relief fund. Whether or not he can access it is probably more of a political discussion than moral at this point but at least “on the books” he can have commissary again. If you look at his website Mansondirect.com, there seems to be an actual method to buying his commissary so I think it might be working out for him.

- In fairness, Axl did distance himself from Manson to a degree in his public statement in 1994, but at the same time never downplayed him to the point that's become typical in popular culture. One part I found odd is he ended it with “I am donating all my personal profits from having that song on our album to a charity, an environmental group to help protect wildlife and our oceans". Manson runs a group called ATWA- Air, Trees, Water, Animals and if you've ever watched any of his interviews, that's always been his main focus. It’s always about environmental protection in some form. It’s just so odd to me how synchronicity works. Here is Axl's statement:

http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?id=13293

-Lastly, Bartek Frykowski was stabbed to death in 1999 in Poland. I know there were rumors about 15 years ago? of the song being removed from future copies of TSI?, and I know its track listing has changed somewhat recently from a hidden track, to a stand alone 13^th track, to a hybrid with I don’t care about you on Itunes. It’s interesting to think why it changes or who could be profiting now or how things like this work. I'm still curious how Manson can't be credited with money directly from sales if Geffen assumed legal responsibility of his victim relief fund, which was the reason for 20+ years he couldn't profit.  It's sort of forgotten knowledge, but Manson recorded that Lie album after he had been charged, as a way to make money for his legal defense, which was denied immorally if not illegally, in court. So it's really strange to think of the legal battle that album and in particular song went through when you think it was written by a guy who everyone was using to make money except himself. Then they have the audacity to say "he was just mad because he wanted to be famous and wasn't good enough" or something in that vain.

I would love to hear Axl's take on this. For what it's worth I think the lyrics and song in general are excellent.

Here is a video of Manson talking about it from a 1997 parole hearing: around the 24:20 mark:

1 minute ago, auad said:

I agree.

It's always about new music...I (like U) don't care about the "return" of Duff and Slash...this "band" is playing the same shit setlist for a decade...That 2002 incarnation was amazing...
But, if these guys can not release some fuckin new music...then...FUCK OFF they...

Love has so many forms.

Here we see it symbolized through anger and frustration. A desperate plea made only with the intent to feel in love again.

The more you know..

1 minute ago, Silent Jay said:

There is no risk to let Steven play half the show, then Frank on Chinese and stuff as originally planned. 

Says the unknown fan from his keyboard. Have a seat junior, the professionals are busy making money and producing high quality professional shows. I'm guessing neither of those results are something you are familiar with in your life. Me either. Misery loves company and I love you in all your imperfection still. Relax. Breathe. This isn't your band. It's just noise that makes you feel good. They are people like me or you. No one is perfect. I await your rebuttal.

3 minutes ago, ShadowOfTheWave said:

Fans for years bitched that they would be satisfied by just ONE SHOW with Axl and Slash, let alone an entire tour. Once they get it, now they bitch about new music.

Wait till we get the afd 5 for the first time. I can imagine Izzy looking too bored for many and "why aren't they playing more UYI" threads. Everywhere you look, you find what you're looking for. When you aren't a celebrity and going to a job or school you don't like, constantly at odds with your day to day existence and wishing it were something different, picking apart other people that have nothing to do with you is a popular pastime. In fact I'm even doing it now. Pot meet kettle. But it's all because the symbolism that original band represents to these negative nellies is not being found presently. So they bitch.That's this forum in a nutshell. Thankfully the negativity dissipates a bit once the tour stops and the good posters come back and the others scale it back as drama requires attentiveness and this band goes on lockdown when not on tour.

40 minutes ago, tsinindy said:

To make more money, that's why.

If the shoe fits.

Jealousy is a big snake.

At the end of the day I can only go with what I got. You cite numbers as if that adds credibility, and I say Shania Twain sold more records in the 90s than Metallica. We all have our faults.

The 2002 band was so odd it worked. Almost like the only way for you to do it is to do it well and leave something witchy. So they did. In spite of the criticism of that band and the oddity of it, I don't think it's nearly as successful had Axl gotten a bunch of Dave Mustaine looking fellows and just re released remakes of past styles.  He wanted a band.

So we move into the future on the spaceship known as 2002 GNR. Sure there are the doubters. It's a UFO. But looking at the product they delivered purely from an auditory perspective they hit the nail on the head. It was the next evolution of GNR. It's part of the reason this regrouping is even happening. It all had to be worked out to get here.

I think if you look and compare honestly, CD stands up quite well to UYI in terms of quality. CD is a fine wine. It's aging well because it never had an age to begin with. It was a Led Zeppelin influenced 80s band recording their post grunge, alternative rock, 90's follow up, not released till a black guy was president in 2008. Its always right now because it's brand new. 

But I can wait some more for the follow up. As Lennon said I'm just sitting here doing time anyway so what's the difference. Now they've abuducted Slash and Duff and that chick and dropped a few along the way. Its Axl's band like it not. I think the next album will still be the next evolution from CD. They need one more artistic statement till helter skelter. This tour has been the buffer needed to get to the next evolution where they can have one more statement with at least the 3 of them. When they are 60 they can go back to the top of the slide.

1 hour ago, Kovags said:

we are closer to hear slither  w duff on vocals than Fall to Pieces.

That'd be cool. I don't see much of a difference between that and Attitude or You can't put your arms around a memory. Maybe that's why it was on those set lists.

Get In the ring or as I like to call it the double helix. This song structurally seems to have everything we love and hate about the band. It has the workings of a great punk song. If it were recorded in An appetite way,it's probably one of the better songs on the album. 

Yet at the same time it has what bugs so many on here about those albums. Call it over production, too much reverb, crowd noise, not enough rythym. Childish ranting/lyrics.

But you know what? What else could it fucking be? All that stuff is what made the band legendary. That has become their mark on the industry. 

You could look at it alternatively and say the production,ranting, all of it, made UYI what it was. Those albums are 25 years old. I don't know about you,but in my state the DMV considers that a classic. At some point you've got to let bygones be bygones you know? The 90s were a wacky time. You got the album man. It was physical. It wasn't Bieber said the n word on video and in between 2nd and 3rd period you youtube it on break. This was you went and drove after school. Maybe on the weekend if you had friends. You Cashed your paycheck and got paper money. Handed paper to man, drove home with this awkward disc. Open the fucking book. Cause that's really what good records were. Then put it on and hear Axl doing that. In 1991. Put it in the context of the time and audience and writers lifestyle (Hollywood must be crazy) and you begin to appreciate the song for what it is. 

Its using the big picture view to judge it instead. Like if a clerk at a store pissed you off today, in the long run, on the death bed, who cares. But today you can't let it go. You still think something could change by you thinking about it. Well that's the problem with so many here. Nothing is going to change and  many judge this thing as if this is something fixable or like their is time to go back.

Guns are like a beautiful disease

Neil Pitman is a legend. I appreciate his work on Chinese. The only synthesizer that can slap the bass without skipping a beat.

You could almost tell when he grabbed that towel and left his keyboard during You're Crazy at Bridge School that things were changing. He danced the dance of a keyboardist who ran out of fucks to give. Like how every drummer wants to be the frontman, Chris seized the opportunity. So much so he got a mention on Kimmel the next week by Axl. I hope things work out for him.

14 minutes ago, cqleonardo said:

Everybody knows that UYI I is better than II

I like the whole enchilada. I view it as one. From the one you conceive the 2 but that's just labeling. It's all one piece.

I feel the yellow/red is representive of anger and frustration. Right next door to hell, dead heads on 65, bodies in trash cans, the heaviness of coma. It had its sweet moments in November rain and don't cry. Even inmates on death row pet the therapy dogs. That's why I like how the songs are mixed. It shows all sides like a real person.

I see UYI 2 as the salvation version. The cool blue/purple. The songs are a little more hopeful, a little more sense of togetherness.  A little more wholesome or southern in a way. It's like Lynyrd Skynyrd is the unsung hero to GNR. That influence added another dimension to the music. Civil war, 14 years, yesterdays, kohd, breakdown. All have southern rock elements. We know Axl credited Ronnie van zant for inspiration when recording scoms vocals so maybe there is something there.

but we also have get in the ring, shotgun blues, my world. So quite literally it's like their version of the white album as Slash said. 

I think time is seeing it in that light too. Sort of like a physical graffiti in the 90s.

That song was the perfect blend of those 2 bands. It was GNR but being song by Weiland. A good first big single but it might have set them up as a superband moreso in many people's eyes than a stand alone thing.

Thats why I see it unlikely they'd cover it. But then again I know nothing. It feels like it's equal part Scott. So Unless Axl's a fan it's hard to see But if they're gonna do one I always see Axl singing set me free.

5 hours ago, wasted said:

It's Scott's SCOM in a way.

It would be cool to kind of keep some of those VR songs alive. That ELO cover they did would be great. 

Funny you mention that as I always viewed that as their attempt at a scom. A lot of their songs are like that to me. Sucker train blues is right next door to hell in a way, or dirty little thing is a take on it's so easy in 2003. Set me free sounds like it was written for Guns.