Question for the musicians of the forum

[Verruckt]

Just finished Duff's book (awesome read btw) and found myself wondering about something. In his description of the first time he ever heard Axl sing (location 916 in the Kindle edition), he writes the following:

Whoever was running the sound then asked Axl to test out the microphone. Axl let out one of his screams, and it was like nothing I had ever heard. There were two voices coming out at once! There's a name for that in musicology, but all I knew in that instant was that this dude was different and powerful and fucking serious. He hadn't yet entirely harnessed his voice -- he was more unique than great at that point -- but it was clear he hadn't moved out to Hollywood from Indiana for the weather. He was here to stake a claim and show the whole fucking world what he had.

So my question is: what's the "name for that in musicology"? I've studied a little bit of music theory (informally), and the only term that comes to mind is "polyphonic" -- but I don't think it really fits. Polyphonic refers to a melody that has more than once voice (as opposed to monophonic) but I don't think it can be used to refer to the sound made by one singer's voice.

So, anyone know what Duff's talking about?

Thanks in advance.

[Drayvin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtone_singing

[Verruckt]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtone_singing

Thanks! Do you know if Axl used this technique in the studio, and if so what's a good example of a track to hear it on? Or maybe a live performance? I'm still trying to wrap my head around this concept.

[KiraMPD]

Yup, I think the term overtone discribs it the best. In simple terms its all to do with resonance I think. If you think about how when a guitar's or a violin's strings are tuned correctly all the strings vibrate if only one is struck so similarly if you adjust your throat and mouth correctly and create an environment in the air to suit the pitch then a variety of tones can be produced.

But personally I've always thought of that quality of Axl's voice arising due to the him dabbling between a falsetto and his throat/head voice. I always thought he was somehow blending his throat voice to a falsetto without actually crossing into full falsetto, giving it that double tonality? That rasp everyone keeps going on about often comes across as some sort of trill or could just be his natural ability to blend different styles/techniques of singing. It would make sense since his natural voice is a baritone yet his songs are at a much higher pitch.

IDK, would have to here what Duff heard, I can only make an assumption on Axl's normal singing voice/tone.

(btw; I'm self taught in music to so I could be talking bullshit for all I know )

Edited January 7, 2012 by KiraMPD

[Verruckt]

Yup, I think the term overtone discribs it the best. In simple terms its all to do with resonance I think. If you think about how when a guitar's or a violin's strings are tuned correctly all the strings vibrate if only one is struck so similarly if you adjust your throat and mouth correctly and create an environment in the air to suit the pitch then a variety of tones can be produced.

But personally I've always thought of that quality of Axl's voice arising due to the him dabbling between a falsetto and his throat/head voice. I always thought he was somehow blending his throat voice to a falsetto without actually crossing into full falsetto, giving it that double tonality? That rasp everyone keeps going on about often comes across as some sort of trill or could just be his natural ability to blend different styles/techniques of singing. It would make sense since his natural voice is a baritone yet his songs are at a much higher pitch.

IDK, would have to here what Duff heard, I can only make an assumption on Axl's normal singing voice/tone.

(btw; I'm self taught in music to so I could be talking bullshit for all I know )

Thanks, that actually helps me a lot! For some reason after reading your post I'm thinking of some of the screams toward the end of "Anything Goes" and how they seem to resonate at different frequencies. I think you are onto something about the rasp and the falsetto/throat voice dichotomy.

[saber_]

It's called scratchety overtone goodness.

[KiraMPD]

Thanks, that actually helps me a lot! For some reason after reading your post I'm thinking of some of the screams toward the end of "Anything Goes" and how they seem to resonate at different frequencies. I think you are onto something about the rasp and the falsetto/throat voice dichotomy.

Thank you, glad it helps.

I think this video can help in analysing this further.

During 'Free falling' Axl has some interesting vocal moments, particularly 1:08, 1:48 and 3:38. Notice how when he does the high pitched "hnnnnnn"s there is a dual tonality where one can hear the high pitched falsetto(?) with an underlying husk/rasp yet there is a pretty much even divide between them.

(one of my fav Axl vids )

Edited January 7, 2012 by KiraMPD

[Verruckt]

During 'Free falling' Axl has some interesting vocal moments, particularly 1:08, 1:48 and 3:38. Notice how when he does the high pitched "hnnnnnn"s there is a dual tonality where one can hear the high pitched falsetto(?) with an underlying husk/rasp yet there is a pretty much even divide between them.

(one of my fav Axl vids )

Wow! I feel like a light just got turned on in my brain. I've appreciated Axl's vocals since the early '80s but never thought about them in these terms. This is the mygnr forum at its best!

[Powerage5]

Thanks, that actually helps me a lot! For some reason after reading your post I'm thinking of some of the screams toward the end of "Anything Goes" and how they seem to resonate at different frequencies. I think you are onto something about the rasp and the falsetto/throat voice dichotomy.

Thank you, glad it helps.

I think this video can help in analysing this further.

During 'Free falling' Axl has some interesting vocal moments, particularly 1:08, 1:48 and 3:38. Notice how when he does the high pitched "hnnnnnn"s there is a dual tonality where one can hear the high pitched falsetto(?) with an underlying husk/rasp yet there is a pretty much even divide between them.

(one of my fav Axl vids )

That is not overtone singing, that's likely an artificial harmonic caused by something else. Overtone singing is characterized by a fundamental pitch remaining constant while shifting pitches in the upper voice, for lack of better terms. Though I don't hear Amazing Grace in this video at all, this video is a great demonstration of the concept and style of overtone singing:

I've never heard anything that gives me any reason to believe Axl is capable of overtone singing. It is an extremely complex technique to learn, let alone master well enough to use in any sort of repertoire. It's not a technique that any rock singer would have any reason to learn, and it's highly improbable Axl could have learned to do it on his own...to my knowledge he never had any sort of professional vocal instruction, did he?

[Young_Gun]

Thanks, that actually helps me a lot! For some reason after reading your post I'm thinking of some of the screams toward the end of "Anything Goes" and how they seem to resonate at different frequencies. I think you are onto something about the rasp and the falsetto/throat voice dichotomy.

Thank you, glad it helps.

I think this video can help in analysing this further.

During 'Free falling' Axl has some interesting vocal moments, particularly 1:08, 1:48 and 3:38. Notice how when he does the high pitched "hnnnnnn"s there is a dual tonality where one can hear the high pitched falsetto(?) with an underlying husk/rasp yet there is a pretty much even divide between them.

(one of my fav Axl vids )

Pwoahhh Axl smoked Tom off the stage on Tom's own song!

[saber_]

Axl received vocal training from Gloria Bennet who wrote a book called Breaking Through. She trained some other famous peeps as well. Check it out:

Page 73 of the book Breaking Through

[sailaway]

LINK AcapellaWTTJ

There are different vocal techniques,both innate and learned that you employ when you sing. Actually Axl uses a "mask" technique and Head Voice

Link above is "Jungle" with fills removed.

"head voice" is a term commonly used by your everysinger to describe one's upper full voice range. That's not what we call it here, unless it's done in a specific way. If you're just singing normally, your upper full voice range will be mixed voice; that is, a mix of chest and head voice.

However, there are certain vocalists who sing a bit abnormally, and use a of full voice on their top notes that one might

mistake for falsetto, just because it sound nothing

like a natural form of full voice.

The most recognizable example isAxl Rose,who I thoughtwas using falsetto on all his fifth octave notes...but then I noticed how he can sing down well below the fourth octave while still maintaining that timbre, without there being any audible change in between. So head voice as we know it on here is that register; one that sounds completely different from a singer's regular chest voice, but is full nonetheless.

For the sake of keeping track of vocalists we know who utilizeit, here's the list so far:

Adam Lambert (on some of his high notes) Adam Sandler (in his "Knocking on Heaven's Door" cover) Axl Rose (on most of his high notes) BenjaminKowalewicz (on most of his high notes) Billy Gibbons (only on the song "Bad Girl") Brian Johnson (on most of his high notes) Dan Arlie (on just about all of his high notes) D.C. Cooper (on many of his high notes) Freddie Mercury (on the songs "All God's People" and "Don't Try So Hard") Freddy Curci (in his upper extremities) Gene Simmons (on the songs "Paralyzed" and "Prisoner Of Love") Heikki Pöyhiä (on most of his high notes) JasonMcMaster (on most of his high notes) Joe Elliott (on most of his high notes) Jonny Lindkvist (on many of his fifth octave notes on the album "Enough As It Is") Mark Slaughter (on most of his high notes) Mike Patton (on the song "Mayday") Stephen Fredrick (on many of his high notes) SebastianBach (on many of his high notes) Tony Moore (I haven't heard enough of Riot's discography to know how often he uses it, but I at least know that he sings up to G5 in head voice on the song "On Your Knees" live in Tokyo 1992)

Edited January 7, 2012 by sailaway

[Kill Devil Hill]

Axl received vocal training from Gloria Bennet who wrote a book called Breaking Through. She trained some other famous peeps as well. Check it out:

Page 73 of the book Breaking Through

D'aww! That was a really sweet Axl mention.

[Locke]

Totally unrelated to the topic, but I totally forgot about Axl and Petty. Tremendous. I'd love to see Axl do stuff like this today. Then again, I'd like it if the MTV awards weren't dominated by bubble gum pop and hip hop. Anyways, thanks to the person who posted it. I enjoyed the hell out of that video.

[KiraMPD]

LINK AcapellaWTTJ

There are different vocal techniques,both innate and learned that you employ when you sing. Actually Axl uses a "mask" technique and Head Voice

Link above is "Jungle" with fills removed.

"head voice" is a term commonly used by your everysinger to describe one's upper full voice range. That's not what we call it here, unless it's done in a specific way. If you're just singing normally, your upper full voice range will be mixed voice; that is, a mix of chest and head voice.

However, there are certain vocalists who sing a bit abnormally, and use a of full voice on their top notes that one might

mistake for falsetto, just because it sound nothing

like a natural form of full voice.

The most recognizable example isAxl Rose,who I thoughtwas using falsetto on all his fifth octave notes...but then I noticed how he can sing down well below the fourth octave while still maintaining that timbre, without there being any audible change in between. So head voice as we know it on here is that register; one that sounds completely different from a singer's regular chest voice, but is full nonetheless.

For the sake of keeping track of vocalists we know who utilizeit, here's the list so far:

Adam Lambert (on some of his high notes) Adam Sandler (in his "Knocking on Heaven's Door" cover) Axl Rose (on most of his high notes) BenjaminKowalewicz (on most of his high notes) Billy Gibbons (only on the song "Bad Girl") Brian Johnson (on most of his high notes) Dan Arlie (on just about all of his high notes) D.C. Cooper (on many of his high notes) Freddie Mercury (on the songs "All God's People" and "Don't Try So Hard") Freddy Curci (in his upper extremities) Gene Simmons (on the songs "Paralyzed" and "Prisoner Of Love") Heikki Pöyhiä (on most of his high notes) JasonMcMaster (on most of his high notes) Joe Elliott (on most of his high notes) Jonny Lindkvist (on many of his fifth octave notes on the album "Enough As It Is") Mark Slaughter (on most of his high notes) Mike Patton (on the song "Mayday") Stephen Fredrick (on many of his high notes) SebastianBach (on many of his high notes) Tony Moore (I haven't heard enough of Riot's discography to know how often he uses it, but I at least know that he sings up to G5 in head voice on the song "On Your Knees" live in Tokyo 1992)

Yeah, that makes more sense, your probably right. OTL

Totally unrelated to the topic, but I totally forgot about Axl and Petty. Tremendous. I'd love to see Axl do stuff like this today. Then again, I'd like it if the MTV awards weren't dominated by bubble gum pop and hip hop. Anyways, thanks to the person who posted it. I enjoyed the hell out of that video.

Glad you liked it. I particularly like the rocked out version of heartbreak hotel in it, wish GnR had played it more often back in the day.