Johnny Rotten vs. Axl Rose

[Mr. Dude]

This thread is a reminder that "knowledge is not wisdom."

[Guest Len B'stard]

My favourite song from that album (or one of em):

This thread is a reminder that "knowledge is not wisdom."

And ignorance is less than both of em. And stupidity is the drooling retard in the pram that ignorance is wheeling along the pavement trying to not fall over sideways with. Seriously, my fault is knowing what I'm talking about now, really? What kinda mindfuck is that, no mention of the person who, for over an hour now has been attempting to carry on a discussion on a topic that, we've now established, she knows next to fuck all about.

But of course, i'm the cunt here

Edited December 29, 2013 by sugaraylen

[ColdHeartBreaker]

My favourite song from that album (or one of em):

Great song, this still gives me chills!

And this is great

[Guest Len B'stard]

Of all of them i gotta say i liked The Room I am In the least, the whole poetry bit, i dunno. I mean it's alright but i prefer a few others. I Must Be Dreaming, Reggies Song and this beautiful fucking piece:

That mental little banjo bit in the middle makes the song! I was at the gig when they played this in Londons Heaven underneath Charring Cross Station, was FUCKING MENTAL! Apparently it's about a black soldier on the confederate side during the American Civil War. Odd topic for a dance track but there ya go

Edited December 29, 2013 by sugaraylen

[ohlovelyrita]

Right so first you were a PiL fan but unaware of what they were up to post the 90s (even though they haven't done anything post the 90s except release the one CD last year) then that went from you haven't the interest to listen to anything past what you own/have heard (getting more cryptic as we go along) and now we settle upon:

Yes, I'm a PIL fan who admits I have only one album. I might have a second that i'm unclear on.

I didn't like them enough to pursue them. See how nicely I said that without insulting anyone!

OK, great, we're being polite now, OK, Rita, darling, this is all that i was attempting to express. If you're going to enter into an in depth discussion regarding two artists and make blanket statements about them and the nature of what they do, to the point of even grading them, it might be beneficial to have actually heard their work. Is that so unfair as a statement? I mean we've basically settled down upon the fact that you've presumably heard all of Axls discography and hardly any of John Lydons, you're only clear on two albums of his output that you've heard…and one maybe album.

Is that so unfair and wrong of me, to just say, OK, we're discussing two artists here, you've heard all of ones output and hardly any of the others, how can you possibly be qualified to judge if that is the case, it's like me comparing the town i live in with some town i had a two hour lay over in during a flight, i simply would not be qualified to judge.

There, thats as politely as i can put it, what is foul about that, about just expecting some greater degree of knowledge about the topic of discussion?

Let's agree to disagree. It's fair for me to say that PIL is an average band to me from what I heard.

PIL is a band and not all Lydon's artistry. Many here know what Axl has contributed to GnR. I don't

know how much Lydon contributed to what I liked of PIL.

I notice you don't answer my questions but i'm good enough to respond

even with your circular reasoning.

So let's bring the topic back to relevant questions:

In your opinion.

1) Who has a better stage presence?

2) Who is a better lyricist?

3) Who is a better composer?

4) Who has a better vocal range?

5) Who has contributed to a better catalogue?

6) Who is a bigger influence (numbers of people) on same and future generations?

7) Who is a bigger influence on other bands?

I'd answer Axl for all except the last question would go to Lydon.

Duff was influenced by his band.

[Mr. Dude]

I don't have a horse in this race. I know the Sex Pistols stuff and I know the early PIL stuff, but I'm not an expert by any means. I'm not debating one way or the other, but in reading over your posts- its obvious that you go out of your way to take things out of context and misinterpret them to your advantage. Then you contradict yourself several times. For example, you talk about how Axl is unoriginal and then go on to tell us all these things where Lydon lifted this or that from other bands. Which that's all fine by me anyway. I place much more importance on authenticity than I do on originality... and I actually think they're both authentic. I just find the way you're arguing a tad dishonest and highly snobbish.

Do you not think that my pointing out that The Pistols did indeed lift riffs to be honesty as opposed to just singing up my end and sticking up for my own side of the argument just for the sake of it? Surely honesty should be to me credit, not the detriment of my point. And the fact that The Pistols, in terms of their musicality, were somewhat derivative is why they didn't last past the one album and Lydon went off and formed PiL. I never said Lydon lifted the riff, Lydon wasn't the guitar player for The Sex Pistols and at that young age his role in The Sex Pistols, as previously mentioned, was writing the lyrics. The fact that I'm not just in blind defence of my side of the argument and will willingingly and freely point out where they have engaged in acts that one might be critical of, like lifting riffs, surely thats to my credit, not a detraction from the validity of what I'm expressing, thats what honesty's about. Im not arguing for the victory of my side over the other, i'm arguing for what I see to be the truth and if, in the truth, there is something negative or potentially negative about The Pistols to be said I will sling it out there, why not, I don't worship nobody.

How do you mean dishonest, in what regard?

It started out as a Axl v. Rotten debate with NMTB and punk rock being the primary reference points, but since she's acknowledged she's not familiar with PiL's latter output you've decided to focus the debate entirely on that point. That strikes me as dishonest. That said, I'm not vested in this debate so your contention that I'm involved in a "blind defense" is not pertinent in my regard. I'm just a bystander who made a passing observation so I'm not going to get involved in a war of massive texts.

out

[Sixes]

Lydon is a better lyricist than Axl.

Lydon has contributed to a better catalogue

Lydon has been the bigger influence..and it's not even close.

Lydon has better stage presence. He's impossible to ignore and demands attention. Axl is offstage half the time and when he's not, he's wearing some ridiculous outfit that makes me cringe.

My opinion(s)

[ohlovelyrita]

My favourite song from that album (or one of em):

This thread is a reminder that "knowledge is not wisdom."

And ignorance is less than both of em. And stupidity is the drooling retard in the pram that ignorance is wheeling along the pavement trying to not fall over sideways with. Seriously, my fault is knowing what I'm talking about now, really? What kinda mindfuck is that, no mention of the person who, for over an hour now has been attempting to carry on a discussion on a topic that, we've now established, she knows next to fuck all about.

But of course, i'm the cunt here

YOU"RE RIGHT on the last part!!

"We've" --Why are you speaking for others? You haven't been able to invalidate any of my points.

"Knowledge is not wisdom" INDEED!!!!

[Guest Len B'stard]

Right so first you were a PiL fan but unaware of what they were up to post the 90s (even though they haven't done anything post the 90s except release the one CD last year) then that went from you haven't the interest to listen to anything past what you own/have heard (getting more cryptic as we go along) and now we settle upon:

Yes, I'm a PIL fan who admits I have only one album. I might have a second that i'm unclear on.

I didn't like them enough to pursue them. See how nicely I said that without insulting anyone!

OK, great, we're being polite now, OK, Rita, darling, this is all that i was attempting to express. If you're going to enter into an in depth discussion regarding two artists and make blanket statements about them and the nature of what they do, to the point of even grading them, it might be beneficial to have actually heard their work. Is that so unfair as a statement? I mean we've basically settled down upon the fact that you've presumably heard all of Axls discography and hardly any of John Lydons, you're only clear on two albums of his output that you've heard…and one maybe album.

Is that so unfair and wrong of me, to just say, OK, we're discussing two artists here, you've heard all of ones output and hardly any of the others, how can you possibly be qualified to judge if that is the case, it's like me comparing the town i live in with some town i had a two hour lay over in during a flight, i simply would not be qualified to judge.

There, thats as politely as i can put it, what is foul about that, about just expecting some greater degree of knowledge about the topic of discussion?

Let's agree to disagree. It's fair for me to say that PIL is an average band to me from what I heard.

PIL is a band and not all Lydon's artistry. Many here know what Axl has contributed to GnR. I don't

know how much Lydon contributed to what I liked of PIL.

I notice you don't answer my questions but i'm good enough to respond

even with your circular reasoning.

So let's bring the topic back to relevant questions:

In your opinion.

1) Who has a better stage presence?

2) Who is a better lyricist?

3) Who is a better composer?

4) Who has a better vocal range?

5) Who has contributed to a better catalogue?

6) Who is a bigger influence (numbers of people) on same and future generations?

7) Who is a bigger influence on other bands?

I'd answer Axl for all except the last question would go to Lydon.

Duff was influenced by his band.

How can i possibly discuss this with you in regards to John Lydon, you are simply not qualified. Really Rita, you're asking me to discuss music that you haven't heard with you?!?! It's totally unfair as a discussion, you've heard all of Axls output yet on the other side, yeaaaah, i've heard a few, i get the idea! Would that be fair if it was the other way around and I had only heard Lies and Appetite, it wouldn't would it? How can you limit the parameters of a discussion like that…and why should I have to tolerate your ignorance on a subject, if you don't know about something then go learn about it and if you don't care to learn about it then don't engage in discussions about it.

You don't see me on this forum diving into discussions about bands like Rush or The Allman Bros cuz I ain't heard of them, I'd be talking nonsense if I did. It's ridiculous, you're purposely attempting to narrow the parameters of the discussion so as to cater to your own lack of knowledge on the subject, a lack of knowledge that its taken me all this time to even get you to admit to, whats the point in me saying anything here, I know you're incapable of offering any substantial dispute of position, you haven't heard enough of the music at hand.

But for the sake of it, I'd answer Lydon on all of those except the better vocal range bit.

[ohlovelyrita]

Right so first you were a PiL fan but unaware of what they were up to post the 90s (even though they haven't done anything post the 90s except release the one CD last year) then that went from you haven't the interest to listen to anything past what you own/have heard (getting more cryptic as we go along) and now we settle upon:

Yes, I'm a PIL fan who admits I have only one album. I might have a second that i'm unclear on.

I didn't like them enough to pursue them. See how nicely I said that without insulting anyone!

OK, great, we're being polite now, OK, Rita, darling, this is all that i was attempting to express. If you're going to enter into an in depth discussion regarding two artists and make blanket statements about them and the nature of what they do, to the point of even grading them, it might be beneficial to have actually heard their work. Is that so unfair as a statement? I mean we've basically settled down upon the fact that you've presumably heard all of Axls discography and hardly any of John Lydons, you're only clear on two albums of his output that you've heard…and one maybe album.

Is that so unfair and wrong of me, to just say, OK, we're discussing two artists here, you've heard all of ones output and hardly any of the others, how can you possibly be qualified to judge if that is the case, it's like me comparing the town i live in with some town i had a two hour lay over in during a flight, i simply would not be qualified to judge.

There, thats as politely as i can put it, what is foul about that, about just expecting some greater degree of knowledge about the topic of discussion?

Let's agree to disagree. It's fair for me to say that PIL is an average band to me from what I heard.

PIL is a band and not all Lydon's artistry. Many here know what Axl has contributed to GnR. I don't

know how much Lydon contributed to what I liked of PIL.

I notice you don't answer my questions but i'm good enough to respond

even with your circular reasoning.

So let's bring the topic back to relevant questions:

In your opinion.

1) Who has a better stage presence?

2) Who is a better lyricist?

3) Who is a better composer?

4) Who has a better vocal range?

5) Who has contributed to a better catalogue?

6) Who is a bigger influence (numbers of people) on same and future generations?

7) Who is a bigger influence on other bands?

I'd answer Axl for all except the last question would go to Lydon.

Duff was influenced by his band.

How can i possibly discuss this with you in regards to John Lydon, you are simply not qualified. Really Rita, you're asking me to discuss music that you haven't heard with you?!?! It's totally unfair as a discussion, you've heard all of Axls output yet on the other side, yeaaaah, i've heard a few, i get the idea! Would that be fair if it was the other way around and I had only heard Lies and Appetite, it wouldn't would it? How can you limit the parameters of a discussion like that…and why should I have to tolerate your ignorance on a subject, if you don't know about something then go learn about it and if you don't care to learn about it then don't engage in discussions about it.

You don't see me on this forum diving into discussions about bands like Rush or The Allman Bros cuz I ain't heard of them, I'd be talking nonsense if I did. It's ridiculous, you're purposely attempting to narrow the parameters of the discussion so as to cater to your own lack of knowledge on the subject, a lack of knowledge that its taken me all this time to even get you to admit to, whats the point in me saying anything here, I know you're incapable of offering any substantial dispute of position, you haven't heard enough of the music at hand.

But for the sake of it, I'd answer Lydon on all of those except the better vocal range bit.

I never claimed to know PIL. Nice try!

I can answer all those questions without knowing all of PIL's songs

so can other people.

There should be a poll:

1) Who has a better stage presence?

2) Who is a better lyricist?

3) Who is a better composer?

4) Who has a better vocal range?

5) Who has contributed to a better catalogue?

6) Who is a bigger influence (numbers of people) on same and future generations?

7) Who is a bigger influence on other bands?

[Guest Len B'stard]

I don't have a horse in this race. I know the Sex Pistols stuff and I know the early PIL stuff, but I'm not an expert by any means. I'm not debating one way or the other, but in reading over your posts- its obvious that you go out of your way to take things out of context and misinterpret them to your advantage. Then you contradict yourself several times. For example, you talk about how Axl is unoriginal and then go on to tell us all these things where Lydon lifted this or that from other bands. Which that's all fine by me anyway. I place much more importance on authenticity than I do on originality... and I actually think they're both authentic. I just find the way you're arguing a tad dishonest and highly snobbish.

Do you not think that my pointing out that The Pistols did indeed lift riffs to be honesty as opposed to just singing up my end and sticking up for my own side of the argument just for the sake of it? Surely honesty should be to me credit, not the detriment of my point. And the fact that The Pistols, in terms of their musicality, were somewhat derivative is why they didn't last past the one album and Lydon went off and formed PiL. I never said Lydon lifted the riff, Lydon wasn't the guitar player for The Sex Pistols and at that young age his role in The Sex Pistols, as previously mentioned, was writing the lyrics. The fact that I'm not just in blind defence of my side of the argument and will willingingly and freely point out where they have engaged in acts that one might be critical of, like lifting riffs, surely thats to my credit, not a detraction from the validity of what I'm expressing, thats what honesty's about. Im not arguing for the victory of my side over the other, i'm arguing for what I see to be the truth and if, in the truth, there is something negative or potentially negative about The Pistols to be said I will sling it out there, why not, I don't worship nobody.

How do you mean dishonest, in what regard?

It started out as a Axl v. Rotten debate with NMTB and punk rock being the primary reference points, but since she's acknowledged she's not familiar with PiL's latter output you've decided to focus the debate entirely on that point. That strikes me as dishonest. That said, I'm not vested in this debate so your contention that I'm involved in a "blind defense" is not pertinent in my regard. I'm just a bystander who made a passing observation so I'm not going to get involved in a war of massive texts.

out

Nor am I, Rotten v Axl, but why is NMTB the primary reference point and why should it be? Where and how were those parameters established? The title says Johnny Rotten vs Axl Rose, upon assessment i take that to mean one guys shit vs the other guys shit, when did this suddenly get limited to 'we'll only talk about one of the albums John Lydon was involved in'. Its dishonest to account for the entire output of each person but there's nothing dishonest about one of Lydons albums vs Axl Roses shit in it's entirety? Hows that fair? And I didn't say you were involved in a blind defence i said the fact that i was willing to criticise the Pistols clearly suggests that i'm not one for blindly defending my side of the argument for the sake of it.

Right so first you were a PiL fan but unaware of what they were up to post the 90s (even though they haven't done anything post the 90s except release the one CD last year) then that went from you haven't the interest to listen to anything past what you own/have heard (getting more cryptic as we go along) and now we settle upon:

Yes, I'm a PIL fan who admits I have only one album. I might have a second that i'm unclear on.

I didn't like them enough to pursue them. See how nicely I said that without insulting anyone!

OK, great, we're being polite now, OK, Rita, darling, this is all that i was attempting to express. If you're going to enter into an in depth discussion regarding two artists and make blanket statements about them and the nature of what they do, to the point of even grading them, it might be beneficial to have actually heard their work. Is that so unfair as a statement? I mean we've basically settled down upon the fact that you've presumably heard all of Axls discography and hardly any of John Lydons, you're only clear on two albums of his output that you've heard…and one maybe album.

Is that so unfair and wrong of me, to just say, OK, we're discussing two artists here, you've heard all of ones output and hardly any of the others, how can you possibly be qualified to judge if that is the case, it's like me comparing the town i live in with some town i had a two hour lay over in during a flight, i simply would not be qualified to judge.

There, thats as politely as i can put it, what is foul about that, about just expecting some greater degree of knowledge about the topic of discussion?

Let's agree to disagree. It's fair for me to say that PIL is an average band to me from what I heard.

PIL is a band and not all Lydon's artistry. Many here know what Axl has contributed to GnR. I don't

know how much Lydon contributed to what I liked of PIL.

I notice you don't answer my questions but i'm good enough to respond

even with your circular reasoning.

So let's bring the topic back to relevant questions:

In your opinion.

1) Who has a better stage presence?

2) Who is a better lyricist?

3) Who is a better composer?

4) Who has a better vocal range?

5) Who has contributed to a better catalogue?

6) Who is a bigger influence (numbers of people) on same and future generations?

7) Who is a bigger influence on other bands?

I'd answer Axl for all except the last question would go to Lydon.

Duff was influenced by his band.

How can i possibly discuss this with you in regards to John Lydon, you are simply not qualified. Really Rita, you're asking me to discuss music that you haven't heard with you?!?! It's totally unfair as a discussion, you've heard all of Axls output yet on the other side, yeaaaah, i've heard a few, i get the idea! Would that be fair if it was the other way around and I had only heard Lies and Appetite, it wouldn't would it? How can you limit the parameters of a discussion like that…and why should I have to tolerate your ignorance on a subject, if you don't know about something then go learn about it and if you don't care to learn about it then don't engage in discussions about it.

You don't see me on this forum diving into discussions about bands like Rush or The Allman Bros cuz I ain't heard of them, I'd be talking nonsense if I did. It's ridiculous, you're purposely attempting to narrow the parameters of the discussion so as to cater to your own lack of knowledge on the subject, a lack of knowledge that its taken me all this time to even get you to admit to, whats the point in me saying anything here, I know you're incapable of offering any substantial dispute of position, you haven't heard enough of the music at hand.

But for the sake of it, I'd answer Lydon on all of those except the better vocal range bit.

I never claimed to know PIL. Nice try!

I can answer all those questions without knowing all of PIL's songs

so can other people.

No you can't, just like you can't pass comments on books you ain't read, films you ain't seen and songs you ain't heard, sorry, not budging on that one cuz then this just gets ridiculous. When you claim to be a fan of something i think that constitutes what it is to 'know PiL'. Face it, you got called out on what i was saying from the beginning of this thread, you were talking about stuff you don't know about.

And knock this 'all' shit off, you've hardly heard any, call it what it is.

Edited December 29, 2013 by sugaraylen

[Sixes]

btw, I own all of Cyndi Lauper's albums, for what it's worth....

Edited December 29, 2013 by axl666axl666

[Guest Len B'stard]

I think Rita needs to look up the word dilettante…and consider it's negative connotations.

[ohlovelyrita]

I think Rita needs to look up the word dilettante…and consider it's negative connotations.

You are not making sense but your need to insult is huge.

Besides you have no sense of fairness, you could be

a sociopath with an internet addiction for all we know

especially since your attacks on GnR & Axl Rose

makes you seem dilettantish to be in constant discussions about them!!

Remember when you said you haven't followed what Axl is doing for years?

YET HERE YOU ARE!

OT: I like Moby but after having his cds, got rid of

more than half. I call myself a Moby fan.

With PIL I never had enough interest to go further but

I can tell from what I heard above that I'd not

keep those PIL albums til now if I bought them.

It's good to like things. It's positive.

Edited December 29, 2013 by ohlovelyrita

[classicrawker]

Getting back to you Lenny NMTB certainly has great social significance to you and others who grew up in GB in that era but musically it breaks no new ground just as Guns AFD and Nirvana's Nevermind didn't....Personally I love all three albums and accept them for what they are but think they are very overrated as they are nothing special musically.....same with PIL I like some of the music but nothing to get excited about IMHO but then again you love em so too each his own.......

pretty much a moot argument with you though as you think NMTB it is the greatest album of all time and PIL is brilliant and anyone who argues the point with you is ignorant and doesn't know they are talking about so what is the point.............

Edited December 29, 2013 by classicrawker

[Mr. Dude]

So this argument is resolved then.

Good, settled

progress is good

[Guest Len B'stard]

Getting back to you Lenny NMTB certainly has great social significance to you and others who grew up in GB in that era but musically it breaks no new ground just as Guns AFD and Nirvana's Nevermind didn't....Personally I love all three albums and accept them for what they are but think they are very overrated as they are nothing special musically

This I could agree with to a point but at the same time, at least in the case of Nevermind and NMTB they are considered cultural milestones and there are valid reasons for that being the case. Are all the proposed reasons 100% valid? I should think probably not but there are also many-a reason that they are. I don't agree that they are nothing special musically because to me a great album, regardless of having broken musical ground is a great album and, on that level, special. But the bit about not breaking musical ground, i can agree with that. Were Lydons career to've ended with NMTB and he had the kudos he does then I might even agree that his work is overrated. The effects of NMTB were more a social and cultural phenomenon than actually being musically innovative and different, although Lydons voice was something truly original and spoke from a perspective that hitherto had not really been presented to the world at large.

But PiL were a different kettle of fish altogether, PiL eschewed formats and conventions and DID present you with something new. Something seriously new and seriously different, the effects of which really did help to alter the musical landscape. Thats not to say that they were original to the point of being utterly peerless and without influence, there are elements of all sorts of genres in there but they are presented and constructed in a way that was and still is totally totally original. We're talking here about weird tempos, distorted disjointed rhythms, re-imagining of formats and the way music is put together, the space of it all, the weird poly-rhythms that occur when you put two contrasting elements together, exploring dissonance and it's musical possibilities, these things are exciting to me because it's like venturing into the unknown, I mean the sheer nerve it must take to present your audience, cultivated on this amazing 38 minute blast of three chord rock n roll like NMTB with this weird dub-inflected, sub-Disco, tonal music, this odd indefinable racket, it's just something truly amazing, the effects of which were felt all over.

These things are invaluable, the ideas you give to other people just by doing what you are doing are invaluable, the fact that you have The Sex Pistols and they are the centre-piece of an entire movement, such a direct influence to all these artistic endeavours by people, even now decades after the fact, it's just fascinating how powerful the effects of what it presented were.

It's legacy can be seen in cinema on the back of entire movements that were created with a punk aesthetic, people like Ken Loach, Derek Jarman, Jim Jarmusch, the re-emergence of the social realism movement in 70s cinema, these things happened on the back of punk.

It's effect on art, artists, graphic design is so far reaching it's almost difficult to quantify, you wouldn't have your Banksys or your Tracey Emins or the fact that serious art museum in London are constantly doing presentations on punk now and it's effect on the history of art, I mean have you ANY IDEA how much of a coup that is for what was basically begun as a counter-culture movement, to then find yourself uploaded and assimilated into mainstream culture in such a fashion.

Or even fashion, I mean the haircut that you see now on the heads of football players and celebrities and newsreaders that are just oh so natural and acceptable now didn't come out of nowhere y'know, they came about because punk rockers with the nerve and the guts to walk outside in the staid long-haired 70s and risked getting their brains beat out (and often did) and to suffer all manner of violent reaction to make these things acceptable in mainstream culture.

Punk was nothing short of a pop culture revolution and it was spearheaded, undeniably by The Sex Pistols. The Sex Pistols are the one place that can be seriously pointed towards as containing all the key defining elements that made this thing what it is. Now like I said, to call them the entire root of it all is disingenuous because no one thing is the entire root of all of everything, influence basically about to lighting the spark but even then, it's no simplistic thing.

It's everywhere and it's why i find myself having write these massive essays when trying to quantify it. John Lydon, for better or worse, was the centre-piece of this movement. Now it'd be ridiculous of me to suggest that he had a direct hand in each and every one of those avenues of artistic endeavour but his work is the one most consistently pointed towards and lighting the fire and containing the key elements that lead to this movement. Were it to happen on the back of The Ramones or Talking Heads or Richard Hell or Patti Smith, by 1976, it would've happened already.

But anyway, going back to the broader body of work, that being PiL or rather the range of it's influence, it's really difficult to explain to a bunch of rock fans the broad influence of PiL because it takes you into territories that, typically, your average rock fan isn't that interested in. There's reggae elements in there (the influence of which on punk by the way is something that I've not touched upon but is IMMEASURABLY huge and probably informed the rebel stance in a more singular way than perhaps anything else) and the spirit of what people like Lee Perry and King Tubby were doing in Jamaica…and then dance music, something that America appears to've caught on to in recent years with the likes of David Guetta etc but at any rate was a huge movement and is still on-going from the Manchester scene (something that can be DIRECTLY and ACUTELY attributed to The Sex Pistols by the way, there are entire books and movies on the subject) segueing into house music and rave and the total dominance of dance music in Europe throughout the 90s, the amount of times and the amount of places that cite PiL as an influence to that entire branch of music and musical innovation are just huge…but I suppose you've got to have an interest in that kind of music to see that.

And this is just me broadly skirting over the issues at hand but nevertheless, on the basis of ALL THAT, it is no insult to Axl Rose to say that he ain't in the league of John Lydon, he JUST ISN'T. He doesn't have the body of work, the scope of influence, the artistic range reflected in the product that he has produced, he doesn't have anything approaching the cultural significance and for anyone to reasonably suggest so is just being silly, there is so much to it and it goes in so many different directions, you simply cannot lump it in as an equivalent to a guy whose major achievement at this point is being the lead singer in Guns n Roses, it's actually not fair on Axl. Quite frankly i think if you asked Axl he wouldn't put himself above John Lydon in that regard. Christ, The Sex Pistols and punk were no small influence of Guns n Roses too y'know, the attitude, the fact that their bass player actually dressed like Sid Vicious, to the point of even wearing the padlock and chain that Sidney wore, the L.A.M.F. daubed on their amp in a nod to Johnny Thunders, the fact that their covers album consists heavily of punk music, I mean am I making this shit up?

Now, once again, lest I am misunderstood, I am not trying to say that John Lydon or even The Sex Pistols, in and of themselves and with no other governing element was totally and utterly and singularly responsible for each and every single one of the aforementioned works of art or bands or albums or artistic movements etc etc etc, what I am saying is that they are the common reoccurring influence and the centrepiece of and, in terms of the musical stuff that led on, direct tangible influences. That is WAAAY too much to heap on Axl Roses or any rock bands lead singer shoulders.

And also, classicrawker, the point can be made that, OK, i was around at those times and i didn't see it shaking up the world etc etc but the fact is, as with any cultural movement its not immediately apparent on the streets of everywhere from your inner cities to suburbia at the drop of a hat, it begins with a few key artists and spreads. Like the hippie movement took place, as a valid functioning thing in the 60s but you'll find if you delve into and investigate this shit that it only really filtered down and was normalised (i.e. things like long hair, flares, the clear apparent influence on regular mainstream culture) by the 70s, at which point times had move on, same with punk.

In short my assertion is that John Lydons work, and his figuring to whatever degree as an element, whether by influence or otherwise, to a greater or lesser degree, in all of the above mentioned puts him in a place that far exceeds Axl Roses position and/or relevance in popular culture.

And musically? Axl Rose is a person that works within formats, John Lydon is a man that shatters them and in doing so, finds himself figuring, whether inadvertedly or by design, in the histories of all these other little weird offshoots and genres and avenues of artistic endeavour that renders his importance to popular culture far beyond anything that Axl Rose can claim responsibility for.

And just on a grassroots musical level, i find John Lydons work interesting, he explores a wide range of themes, topics, subject matters, in a human way. I FAR FAR FARRRR prefer Johns voice because it is visceral and human and it cuts right to the bone. I've said this once and I'll say it a thousand times more, a good voice, as a textbook would have you understand the term is a great thing but on it's own it doesn't really mean shit, the power in a voice is your ability to channel passion and emotion through it…and John Lydon does that admirably.

Or, for an example, there's two guys singing an impassioned song or a particularly impassioned piece of a song…one of them has a perfect voice and strikes the note perfectly and his voice soars and it is beautiful and it just hits the spot perfectly….brilliant. Then you have another guy who doesn't have the ability to hit that note…but the passion is there so you push and the voice breaks and it makes and cutting harsh abrasive noise…i put it to you that both of those instances are equally capable of conveying emotion, the latter possibly more so than the former because the latter is more human and after all, what is emotion if not human expression? Perfection is slightly less (or more?) than human, the humanity in music is expressed in the flaws, the nuances, those things that you hear often in live performances is the entire core of what is beautiful about music and about the expression of human emotion through music. And thats what it's about right, conveying emotion and passion, thats what you do with a voice, otherwise if it's just 'who has the best vocal range' then there have been contestants on X Factor and Pop Idol who could claim to be better singers than both Axl and Lydon…but that ain't what it's about…at least for me anyway. It's why i don't get on with this constant moaning about 'Oh Axls voice sounded terrible today, it cracked here and it didn't hit this bit right' and to me it's like fuck that shit, did he sound like he meant it, thats what matters. Kurt Cobain for example, screaming the word 'pain' in the chorus (or the closest thing it has to a chorus) in his cracked croaky voice speaks to me far and above any textbook note holder can. Thats not to say that that type of singing should be totally disregarded because done right its fucking beautiful, it is never ever ever ever to be ignored, Sam Cooke, Marvin Gaye, even Axl Rose have done wonderful things with it…but it should not be the measure or the yardstick upon which all singing is judged because the human voice is a beautiful thing and it takes many-a form and the power of those forms is not dictated to by any man-made standards of how they should be executed, there is no 'should be', there only is what is, 'should be' is just someones idea, nothing more, you do not have to be dictated to by or labour under it if you do not care to, it should inhibit or prohibit no one…and it doesn't, except in the minds of some which is a shame cuz all you're doing is limiting things for yourself.

I believe it was the great Miles Davis who said of John Lydons voice that 'this boy sings like i play', Miles fucking Davis, yes, him, THE Miles Davis, Sketches of Spain, Bitches Brew, that guy.

Sorry if i've gone on a bit

Edited December 29, 2013 by sugaraylen

[magisme]

It would be nice if Len could make one post without egregiously insulting Axl. He's just incapable of discussing his points reasonably, it seems.

[Damn_Smooth]

So this argument is resolved then.

Good, settled

progress is good

So your "out" lasted a little over an hour? Nice to see a man that can stick to his convictions.

[ohlovelyrita]

It would be nice if Len could make one post without egregiously insulting Axl. He's just incapable of discussing his points reasonably, it seems.

This is the same person who constantly denies (READ: lies) disliking Rose. In this thread, he denied disliking Robert Plant and I

posted his vile and turgid rant against him. So he has 20k posts here in about 2 years and doesn't like Axl? Why spend so many hours here?

Sugaraylen"Suffice to say i haven't had an active interest in what Axl says or does for quite a long time now so it's a little difficult to remember where i heard everything i know, if they are at all inaccurate please feel free to correct them Is there anything is Axls expounding that has significant bearing on my condensed relaying of them?"

http://www.mygnrforum.com/index.php?/topic/203705-axls-views-and-lyrics/ Comment #5

This is guy who sings the praises of Cyndi Lauper yet probably doesn't own a Led Zep, Black Sabbath, Pink Floyd, Rush, or a Allman Brothers, (I'm sure many

more greats are lost on him) album. There is a reason why I have only 1 PIL album, they are an mediocre band compared to the zillions of bands to choice from. Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds is a bolder band with more fans with a brilliantly creative mind at the helm!

OT: Axl vs. Lydon

Axl is a A-list celebrity. If he shows up at a party, it might be heard about around the world.

Lydon is on the D-list. I like to see him but not many others! I wonder what Sid Vicious' career trajectory

would have been like had he lived.

Like Lydon?:

More punk remains in his pinky finger than Lydon's whole body!:

So this argument is resolved then.

Good, settled

progress is good

Status Quo!!

It happens a lot here where (the same) people derail threads just to change the

topic from discussing a subject to discussing a (the same) person.

Of course, people can talk on any subject they like as long

as they give don't bring wrong information or state opinions as facts.

OT: Another good challenge would be who influenced music more Ramones or Sex Pistols?

I'd say the former!!

[Damn_Smooth]

It would be nice if Len could make one post without egregiously insulting Axl. He's just incapable of discussing his points reasonably, it seems.

This is the same person who constantly denies (READ: lies) disliking Rose. In this thread, he denied disliking Robert Plant and I

posted his vile and turgid rant against him. So he has 20k posts here in about 2 years and doesn't like Axl? Why spend so many hours here?

Sugaraylen"Suffice to say i haven't had an active interest in what Axl says or does for quite a long time now so it's a little difficult to remember where i heard everything i know, if they are at all inaccurate please feel free to correct them Is there anything is Axls expounding that has significant bearing on my condensed relaying of them?"

http://www.mygnrforum.com/index.php?/topic/203705-axls-views-and-lyrics/ Comment #5

This is guy who sings the praises of Cyndi Lauper yet probably doesn't own a Led Zep, Black Sabbath, Pink Floyd, Rush, or a Allman Brothers, (I'm sure many

more greats are lost on him) album. There is a reason why I have only 1 PIL album, they are an mediocre band compared to the zillions of bands to choice from. Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds is a bolder band with more fans with a brilliantly creative mind at the helm!

OT: Axl vs. Lydon

Axl is a A-list celebrity. If he shows up at a party, it might be heard about around the world.

Lydon is on the D-list. I like to see him but not many others! I wonder what Sid Vicious' career trajectory

would have been like had he lived.

Like Lydon?:

More punk remains in his pinky finger than Lydon's whole body!:

So this argument is resolved then.

Good, settled

progress is good

Status Quo!!

It happens a lot here where (the same) people derail threads just to change the

topic from discussing a subject to discussing a (the same) person.

Of course, people can talk on any subject they like as long

as they give don't bring wrong information or state opinions as facts.

OT: Another good challenge would be who influenced music more Ramones or Sex Pistols?

I'd say the former!!

You whine about about Lenny's insults, then turn around and insult him to anybody that will pay attention to you. Great strategy.

[ohlovelyrita]

You whine about about Lenny's insults, then turn around and insult him to anybody that will pay attention to you. Great strategy.

Yet you're on board, too, posting 2 comments here trying to antagonize both Mr. Dude and myself.

Any thoughts on topic? Who made a bigger impact on you musically? Rose or Lydon?

You are right tho that insults aren't necessary but I want to expose the contradictions.

[Damn_Smooth]

You whine about about Lenny's insults, then turn around and insult him to anybody that will pay attention to you. Great strategy.

Yet you're on board, too, posting 2 comments here trying to antagonize both Mr. Dude and myself.

Any thoughts on topic? Who made a bigger impact on you musically? Rose or Lydon?

You are right tho that insults aren't necessary but I want to expose the contradictions.

I can be on board. The day you hear me crying about some bitch insulting me on the internet is the day hell freezes over. Once you see that happen, feel free to tell me that I have no right to insult anybody, then call your relatives and tell them goodbye, because it's the end for all of us. And I wouldn't call it too antagonizing to point out the logical fallicies in both of your posts. If I say I'm done with something, I don't come back an hour later to show how done with it I am, and as I've already mentioned, I wouldn't throw insults when I've proven that I can't handle them.

Axl vs. Rotten? Axl all day every day. Don't know anything about PIL though, so I don't feel I'm qualified to argue about it.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Damn_Smooth

[magisme]

This thread should be a celebration of how superior Axl is to Lydon, yet people like Damn_Smooth and sugaraylen just want to make it about their negativity.

[ohlovelyrita]

You whine about about Lenny's insults, then turn around and insult him to anybody that will pay attention to you. Great strategy.

Yet you're on board, too, posting 2 comments here trying to antagonize both Mr. Dude and myself.

Any thoughts on topic? Who made a bigger impact on you musically? Rose or Lydon?

You are right tho that insults aren't necessary but I want to expose the contradictions.

I can be on board. The day you hear me crying about some bitch insulting me on the internet is the day hell freezess over. Once you see that happen, feel free to tell me that I have no right to insult anybody, then call your relatives and tell them goodbye, because it's the end for all of us. And I wouldn't call it too antagonizing to point out the logical fallicies in both of your posts. If I say I'm done with something, I don't come back an hour later to show how done with it I am, and as I've already mentioned, I wouldn't throw insults when I've proven that I can't handle them.

Axl vs. Rotten? Axl all day every day. Don't know anything about PIL though, so I don't feel I'm qualified to argue about it.

" call your relatives and tell them goodbye"

I think further conversation is over. The tough guy internet persona is tired here.

YOU ARE NOT TOUGH, YOU ARE HERE PLAYING ON A ROCK BAND FORUM.

"I don't feel I'm qualified to argue about it."

Ahh....but you are here to argue ONLY just NOT on topic!

Not to mention, you already took sides. Not a fair person at that!