Johnny Rotten vs. Axl Rose

[Guest Len B'stard]

I love "Never Mind The Bollocks" but the Sex Pistols are one of the most over rated bands in Rock history IMHO...........And Johnny Rotten is another of those pretentious rockers who still thinks he is in his 20's and people actually give a shit what he has to say these days..........

I think a better comparison would be "Appetite for Destruction" vs. "Never Mind the Bollocks" ......both are great albums in their genre ............although we know other than Lenny nobody would vote for Bollocks.............

Oh PLEASE, really, Appetite for Destruction gets more kudos than NMTB?!?! On what planet? Oh yeah, a GnR forum, i wonder why. Anywhere else on the planet though? Exactly, thank you And whatcha mean 'thinks he's in his 20s, are you having a laugh?!?! You're sticking up for a 40 yr old balding fat man that does snake hip winding dances onstage and then having a pop at John Lydon for 'acting like he's in his 20s'.

This idea that after a certain age you should shut up and go sit in a corner is ridiculous and quite frankly it is levelled at people who have something to say with a view to restricting any kind of opinion of dissent or anyone who says anything vaguely accurate or interesting or, heaven forbid, different.

Tell me, who do you listen to these days, what 20 somethings grab your attention with opinings, name them, name the 20-something populated classicrawker list of people whoose opinions are relevant, away you go Also there's no poll here, which makes it more about discussion, so until someone can actually make a decent point in defence of Axl here, then i'm afraid Lydon is ahead here by sheer weight of fact and the inability of anybody to say anything in defence of Axl Rose here. As in actually point something out. Someone mentioned 'stage presence', thats about it...and even thats a load of shit, Axl Rose has stage presence? OR, more accurately, he has a set routine of about 5 different little dances he does, the hip wind, the kicking his front foot in the air, the mic stand stroke and a couple of others and thats about it, even on his best day. And now he's gotten older he struggles to even do that properly. Sheds an interesting light on your acting like you're in your 20s comment if you think about it.

There is no performance when you see John Lydon, if you expect to see a little fanny doing all these moves trying desperately to appear sexy to you then you're barking up the wrong tree.

Axl is a better songwriter too, pfft, says who? Axl can't write a song that doesn't have a completely atypical structure with verse chorus verse...Lydon turned shit like that on it's head and make some of the most originally structured songs in popular music. What has Axl Rose done for the format of a song in popular music over and above what was done in PiL? Nothing.

Which is not to say that Axl Rose hasn't been responsible for some great tracks cuz he has but pound for pound, has he actually done anything other than write a few good songs? He hasn't the wit or the originality of thought to present us with anything like what John Lydon did with PiL. The only time he ever tried doing anything vaguely adventurous with a song in that regard (My World) the resultant product was a historical joke, to even the most hardcore of Guns n Roses fans.

Edited December 28, 2013 by sugaraylen

[classicrawker]

yeah Lenny because I am one of Axl's biggest defenders on this forum right?......... .............I expressed my opinion on The Sex Pistols being overrated and Johnny Lyndon being a phony nothing more...Axl and GnR don't even enter into the equation......but it was worth it just to read your rant of a response .......

BTW I happen to love "NMTB" but they really are an overrated band in the big scheme of things,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Edited December 28, 2013 by classicrawker

[Use Your Delusion 1]

back to his butter ads

[Guest Len B'stard]

yeah Lenny because I am one of Axl's biggest defenders on this forum right?......... .............I expressed my opinion on The Sex Pistols being overrated and Johnny Lyndon being a phony nothing more...Axl and GnR don't even enter into the equation......but it was worth it just to read your rant of a response .......

BTW I happen to love "NMTB" but they really are an overrated band in the big scheme of things,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Explain?

[classicrawker]

yeah Lenny because I am one of Axl's biggest defenders on this forum right?......... .............I expressed my opinion on The Sex Pistols being overrated and Johnny Lyndon being a phony nothing more...Axl and GnR don't even enter into the equation......but it was worth it just to read your rant of a response .......

BTW I happen to love "NMTB" but they really are an overrated band in the big scheme of things,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Explain?

You went on a rant related to my post insinuating I was defending Axl when I am probably one of his biggest critics on this forum mate................and my post had nothing to do with picking which singer is better as I only gave my opinion related to the Sex Pistols and Johnny R..also on this forum if you compared AFD to NMTB you most likely would be one of the the only ones voting for NMTB which should be pretty obvious but both are amazing albums IMHO so I was not knocking your favorite album....

And truth be told I also think GnR is overrated in rock history considering the sparse catalog..............IMHO they caught lightening in bottle with AFD and everything after that has been inferior..............but I always enjoy your responses Lenny as your one of the most interesting posters on the forum especially when you are wound up about something................

Edited December 28, 2013 by classicrawker

[Guest Len B'stard]

No i meant explain why you think NMTB is overrated, in the interest of prompting discussion cuz, no offence to anyone on the forum but the majority of people who've commented here dont really have intimate enough knowledge of Lydons discography to really participate but we could definitely narrow it down to why you think NMTB is overrated?

[classicrawker]

No i meant explain why you think NMTB is overrated, in the interest of prompting discussion cuz, no offence to anyone on the forum but the majority of people who've commented here dont really have intimate enough knowledge of Lydons discography to really participate but we could definitely narrow it down to why you think NMTB is overrated?

No time now mate as the family is coming to the house today and have to go shopping for food in wine to feed them.....will get back to you later tonight or tomorrow............

[Guest Len B'stard]

No problem skipper

[Iron MikeyJ]

I like NMTB Lenny!!!!

Not as much as I like Appetite, but it's my fav punk album.

[ohlovelyrita]

A better comparison here would be Johnny Rotten vs. Jello Biafra.

One discussion could Biafra wouldn't play Israel, Lydon did.

Or Johnny Rotten vs. Henry Rollins

Both got lucky getting into bands that were happening or gonna happen with or without then.

I'd bet that when people think of Sex Pistols for most Sid Vicious comes to mind over Johnny Rotten.

Imagine how huge they would have been if Vicious was the Sex Pistols frontman!!

For better or worse, Sid had that thing that Axl has. Rollins added a lot to BF with his charisma.

Unlike a SP without Lydon, we can be almost certain that without Axl that GnR was -not- going to

happen on the international scale. Axl was the golden ticket to his band's success.

Anyone trying to dismiss most of Axl's achievements always sound

1) jealous

2) jealous

3) jealous

Let's compare again:

Axl at his peak performing was a 10

Lydon was a 4 (and that is generous).

Axl is a skilled and talented piano player.

Lydon- "I'm a really bad musician, but I know how to make the sounds that I like. The more musicians learn, the less they know, because they lack their sense of freedom, everything becomes a format. I love the idea of formats, because I love fucking with them. Turned upside down, they become incredibly interesting.

"I don't use other people's samples; I create my own, and run them through the keyboards."

Song writing ability?

Pretty Vacant is my favourite song by SP and Matlock is said to have written it.

Lydon is a good lyricist but I find Axl's work to be more lyrical. Axl has a depth few musician have.

Influence?

They are about a decade apart on the music scene if you count the height of their popularity.

Recent news:

Johnny and the "heiress" put their Malibu beach "mansion" on sale this month:

http://homes.yahoo.com/photos/sex-pistols-johnny-rotten-selling-really-un-punk-malibu-ranch-house-for-1-995-million-1386027757-slideshow/

Edited December 28, 2013 by ohlovelyrita

[Mr. Dude]

yeah Lenny because I am one of Axl's biggest defenders on this forum right?......... .............I expressed my opinion on The Sex Pistols being overrated and Johnny Lyndon being a phony nothing more...Axl and GnR don't even enter into the equation......but it was worth it just to read your rant of a response .......

BTW I happen to love "NMTB" but they really are an overrated band in the big scheme of things,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Explain?

I can see that. I think even John thinks the public at large took them, him, the album the wrong way. Punk rock became more about fashion and image than the actual substance of it all... but I suppose thats an inevitable consequence of success.

[ohlovelyrita]

yeah Lenny because I am one of Axl's biggest defenders on this forum right?......... .............I expressed my opinion on The Sex Pistols being overrated and Johnny Lyndon being a phony nothing more...Axl and GnR don't even enter into the equation......but it was worth it just to read your rant of a response .......

BTW I happen to love "NMTB" but they really are an overrated band in the big scheme of things,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Explain?

I can see that. I think even John thinks the public at large took them, him, the album the wrong way. Punk rock became more about fashion and image than the actual substance of it all... but I suppose thats an inevitable consequence of success.

Rotten and Vicious were both fashion plates. The punk act was a fashion statement.

No one saw any anarchists on that stage but they were lovable and the energy infectious

and the anthems catchy!

"Punk was about fashion from the beginning. The story goes like this. A British man named Malcolm McLaren was interested in music, fashion, and art. He met a girl named Vivienne Westwood at art school. They opened up a clothing shop in London. One day, members of a band called The New York Dolls walked into the store. McLaren was fascinated by the look and style of the band. The Dolls played angry and aggressive songs, but they did so in tights and high heels. McLaren followed The Dolls to New York. In New York City, McLaren bumped into a man named Richard Hell: poet, singer, scumbag. McLaren loved something about Hell. “Here was a guy,” McLaren said, “all deconstructed, torn down, looking like he'd just crawled out of a drain hole, covered in slime, looking like he hadn't slept or washed in years, and looking like he didn't really give a fuck about you!” McLaren went back to England. He wanted to build his own Richard Hell, further deconstructed, torn down completely, covered in even more slime. McLaren found a broken man with decaying teeth named Johnny Lydon, renamed him Johnny Rotten (the teeth), and surrounded him with a couple of other miscreants who could barely play their instruments. The Sex Pistols was born."

[magisme]

Can't wait for Len to get back in here.

[bacardimayne]

Can't wait for Len to get back in here.

Which side are you on?

[J Dog]

No poll up or did I miss it? Anyway I'm all about Rotten and the Pistols but it's Axl all day.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Can't wait for Len to get back in here.

I've yet to see anything to respond to, except Rita and I'm not allowed to talk to her in case she cries But anyone else is more than welcome if they've anything to discuss

[ohlovelyrita]

Sugaraylen already spoke to 3 things earlier that I directly mentioned in his #25 and #26 post.

I didn't "cry"!

I do have to stop myself from being disagreeable when he throws bile at Axl Rose

and Robert Plant. I don't see where they deserve hatred for existing even if

one doesn't like their artistry. They are both towering successes over

what later generations now call "rock stars". Mike420 said it best that females are

leading the way there today. I think Slash also said that well.

What Sugaraylem said before about Robert Plant was so vile and unnecessary.

You can like someone with hating another.

I mentioned how Lydon likes ABBA before. Funny that Matlock main riff in Pretty Vacant was inspired by Abba's "SOS"!

Lydon is a legend and deserves more credit for sure and the next generations barely know him. Shameful.

@Sugaraylen - Was it disappointing to learn that Lydon LOVES the bands you seem to hate

like Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin!!! ABBA!!!!

Anyway....no offense meant! Let's keep it civil. Your post on the female guitarist thread

was a laugh riot. You have some talent there!

[magisme]

Can't wait for Len to get back in here.

Which side are you on?

I'd choose Axl because I'm embarrassingly ignorant regarding The Sex Pistols. Never listened to them. Never read about them. Nothing. It's a blind spot I'm not particularly proud of since they're clearly perceived by most as a more important chapter in music history than, say, GNR. But Rita posted some things I thought Len was gonna flip out about, so I was looking forward to that. Apparently he's not allowed to make good.

[John Bonham]

I think Axl Rose was a more effective Johnny Rotten than Johnny Rottem was...

But John Lydon and PiL were waaay better than FakeGNR / Axl Rose post-1993.

[ohlovelyrita]

Can't wait for Len to get back in here.

Which side are you on?

I'd choose Axl because I'm embarrassingly ignorant regarding The Sex Pistols. Never listened to them. Never read about them. Nothing. It's a blind spot I'm not particularly proud of since they're clearly perceived by most as a more important chapter in music history than, say, GNR. But Rita posted some things I thought Len was gonna flip out about, so I was looking forward to that. Apparently he's not allowed to make good.

He is allowed and he already did comment directly on stuff I said in this thread.

Don't you have another fire to stoke somewhere else?

[Guest Len B'stard]

Right, i'll take that as an invitation to crack on then

The Sex Pistols were gonna happen with or without John Lydon? Uh, says who? is that a serious discussion point now, clairvoyance, guesswork, can we really rely on that? Or is reality a one shot thing where what happens happens and the rest is people talking out of their arse?

Sid comes to mind when people think Sex Pistols over Johnny? Well he was a member so why not?

Think how big The Pistols would've been if Sid had been in em in Johns place? Uh, good luck getting Sidney to write a song You do know that John did the lyrics to about 99% of the songs right? But no, of course, Sid would've written exactly the same stuff right? Furthermore, Sids abilities as a frontman were so well evidenced by his work post Pistols eh, why ever would one think that he wouldn't've had the same culture-jolting impact

Dismissing Axls achievements and saying they are not on a par with someone of Lydons calibre are two very different things

Axl was a 10, John was a 4…wonderful opinion but would you like to back your opinion up with some reasoning maybe? Or am i just being silly?

Axl is a skilled and talented piano player.

Lydon- "I'm a really bad musician, but I know how to make the sounds that I like. The more musicians learn, the less they know, because they lack their sense of freedom, everything becomes a format. I love the idea of formats, because I love fucking with them. Turned upside down, they become incredibly interesting.

"I don't use other people's samples; I create my own, and run them through the keyboards."

Uh…he can play piano but skilled and talented? And I'm glad you've highlighted this particular point because it illustrates something admirably. With the mentality that John has outlined above you can really take creativity somewhere as opposed to just doing the run of the mill thing. Thats the basis of my point, being a bad musician means that he's not technically adept with any particular instrument…but that doesn't mean you can't make good music, especially when your eyes is on subverting formulas anyway and thats what John Lydon is exceptional at. You end up with something new and fresh and interesting instead of just a phoney re-imagining of stuff that bands like The Stones and Led Zeppelin were doing. This is the fundamental difference between John Lydon and Axl Rose, originality. The fact that Axl Rose is derivative to the point of forgery where as John Lydons work, despite having clear influences upon perusal, is highly original and of himself.

You can listen to a song by a band like PiL and, if you think about it, lightbulbs can go off and you go 'ahhh, OK, i can see there's an element of dub reggae in there, the space of it' or some broad thematic element like that. With derivative artists like Axl Rose however it's just wholesale forgery of a pre-existing format.

Now there's nothing wrong with that per se, everybody can't be highly original, everybody can't be a trailblazer, some people work and are contained in and exemplify and, to their credit, even perfect genres…and they are wonderful at doing so but you can't compare someone like that with someone like John Lydon, they simply do not bear comparison.

There are no rules to music, it is just organised noise and as time has gone on history has bore this out, there are forms of music out there now that have been around for decades that require no ability to play an instrument at all, being a musician is simply being someone who creates music and the ability to communicate something effectively through that music, the ability to play the piano 'well' as your GCSE music teacher would have you understand the term is neither here nor there. For someone who appears to pride themselves of liking things a little off kilter and freaky Rita you really really are desperately ordinary in your understanding of even the very basic principles of creative thought.

Is Jackson Pollock a crap artist because he can't do you a near photographic reproduction of an autumnal scene? Or is it that different artists operate under different parameters and the measure of a good artist is his ability to communicate mood or tone or message or feeling or passion or emotion? Make up your own mind on that one I guess. As far as i'm concerned you could be born without fingers and rendered incapable of playing the conventional instruments of your average rock n roll band but if you can still manage to produce me something out of speaker that speaks to me in a way that far exceeds some well-taught member of the Guitar Institute of Technology or whatever i'll gladly call you an amazing musician because, survey says, you have created amazing music.

Song writing ability?

Pretty Vacant is my favourite song by SP and Matlock is said to have written it.

Lydon is a good lyricist but I find Axl's work to be more lyrical. Axl has a depth few musician have.

Lydon has entire career outside The Pistols and I'd be interested to know whether you have much awareness of it and what was achieved there before continuing discussing this with you, lest i'm having a conversation with someone who has no clue what 50% of the argument is about.

How do you mean more lyrical?

Influence?

They are about a decade apart on the music scene if you count the height of their popularity.

You're not seriously gonna argue that Axl is more influential right? To who? You wanna talk about influential, there are entire books written about single Pistols gigs in towns in England (cities rather) like Manchester that were attending by 20 people and about 3 quarters of the audience went on to form some of the biggest and most important bands of the on-coming generation…in totally diverse areas. Jesus, Lydon is almost as respected in the dance music community as he is in rock n roll, Lydon was responsible for helping bring reggae acts over from Jamaica in the 70s, Joy Division, The Stone Roses, The Smiths, New Order, Oasis, The Clash, The Damned, the entire UK punk scene, the American hardcore scene, the whole thing going on in LA, hell, even Guns n Roses themselves are/were Pistols influenced…and i still haven't even touched the tip of the iceberg, are you seriously trying to make this point?

Punk was about fashion from the beginning. The story goes like this. A British man named Malcolm McLaren was interested in music, fashion, and art. He met a girl named Vivienne Westwood at art school. They opened up a clothing shop in London. One day, members of a band called The New York Dolls walked into the store. McLaren was fascinated by the look and style of the band. The Dolls played angry and aggressive songs, but they did so in tights and high heels. McLaren followed The Dolls to New York. In New York City, McLaren bumped into a man named Richard Hell: poet, singer, scumbag. McLaren loved something about Hell. “Here was a guy,” McLaren said, “all deconstructed, torn down, looking like he'd just crawled out of a drain hole, covered in slime, looking like he hadn't slept or washed in years, and looking like he didn't really give a fuck about you!” McLaren went back to England. He wanted to build his own Richard Hell, further deconstructed, torn down completely, covered in even more slime. McLaren found a broken man with decaying teeth named Johnny Lydon, renamed him Johnny Rotten (the teeth), and surrounded him with a couple of other miscreants who could barely play their instruments. The Sex Pistols was born."

What happened in America under the banner of punk and what happened in England are two totally different things. The songs, the lyrics, the themes, the sense of style and dress were completely separate from what happened in America and only people who have no awareness of the music.

The New York scene was about art, Andy Warhol, trying to recreate the whole factory scene, Richard Hell thought he was a poet, his clothes were ripped because he ripped them on purpose, John had safety pins in his clothes because of abject poverty. Do you really think that punk could've spoken to the working classes of England were it coming from a Patti Smith/Richard Hell standpoint? They would be laughed at, what the Pistols was doing was totally emotionally reductive, what The Clash were doing was totally specific to England, the songs are about England, about the English way of life, about the situation in England on that day…how on earth can that be compared on any level to Richard Hell or Patti Smith or Wayne County or The Dictators? (although The Ramones, you could argue that to a point).

What was considered punk in England was TOTALLY separate from that and had to be so by necessity, people that ponced around calling themselves artists and poets like the people of the NY scene were was exactly what kids in England hated and were reacting against and why they were spoken to so succinctly by people like Steve Jones or John Lydon because they spoke and behaved like your average lad, there was nothing effete about them.

And, by the way, about the 'they could barely play their instruments' thing…can i let you in on a secret here? I dunno if you've ever held a guitar in your hand Rita but to play, in a rudimentary fashion, the bare bones of rock n roll is the easiest thing in the world to play. Why do you think it was the first genre of music to catch on with youth culture like it did? Because ANYBODY could play it, High School kids could form bands after having gleaned some basic knowledge of their instrument, it is not difficult music to play. Yeah they could barely play their instruments, so what? They learned onstage and they got damn good at it damn quickly and could make a pretty interesting racket whilst at it. It was only later on decided, when rock n roll went all funny and up its own arse there for a short period in the early 70s that you can only be a credible musician if you can play like Hendrix or Page, which is a beautiful thing if you can do it but how dare anyone make it a requirement, how dare anyone invent these invisible rules to rock n roll where you have to be able to do this and this and this on the guitar otherwise 'it ain't music maaan', people listen to it and if they like it then it's good music to them, if it can communicate passion and integrity or emotion, it's good music, regardless of how much noodling up and down the fretboard a person can do…how many times did you see Chuck Berry doing a 20 minute solo? Exactly.

I do have to stop myself from being disagreeable when he throws bile at Axl Rose

and Robert Plant. I don't see where they deserve hatred for existing even if

one doesn't like their artistry. They are both towering successes over

what later generations now call "rock stars". Mike420 said it best that females are

leading the way there today. I think Slash also said that well.

What Sugaraylem said before about Robert Plant was so vile and unnecessary.

You can like someone with hating another.

Who says i hate Robert Plant? I don't know the man, I make comments on the music, i don't really care about him as a person…or any of em for that matter, if i perceive them to have qualities or misgivings i'll point them out but hate? Hate someone off of a CD cover or a magazine cover? Bit of a leap.

I mentioned how Lydon likes ABBA before. Funny that Matlock main riff in Pretty Vacant was inspired by Abba's "SOS"!

Call it what it is, it was stolen from there And that ain't the only one, listen to the riff to submission…sounds familiar doesn't it? The Kinks anyone? Which in turn is very similar to Hello I Love You by The Doors…whats your point? And whats wrong with liking ABBA?

Sugaraylen - Was it disappointing to learn that Lydon LOVES the bands you seem to hate

like Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin!!! ABBA!!!!

No, does it disappoint you when Axl likes things you don't like? John Lydon likes loads of music that I have no time for and also hates loads of music that i adore, see vast chunks of the Gangsta Rap genre, where in my praise for Lydon did you interpret me to be saying 'WE ARE IDENTICAL HUMAN BEINGS, JOHN LYDON IS A TEMPLATE FOR CHRIST!'

[magisme]

Oh no. Let's hope her feelings aren't about to get hurt.

[ohlovelyrita]

@Sugaraylen- Ask a few questions if you want responses, not everyone has HOURS to be here formulating a response

like you do.

When Sugaraylen purposely misinterprets my words I don't see the point of engaging.

I had written, "Axl at his peak performing was a 10 Lydon was a 4 (and that is generous).

He wrote,"Axl was a 10, John was a 4…wonderful opinion but would you like to back your opinion up with some reasoning maybe?"

See what I mean? He twisted my words! I already backed it up.

I had already explained even before that comment that 30 years

later and Lydon's bottom half was still practically frozen on stage.

I also said here,"He seems to now like Axl after his RRHOF decision."

I didn't say definitively!

Len writes,"Also, he never said he liked Axl Rose now because he refused induction into the HoF, what he actually said was 'good on him'."

Len writes,"the assertion that John Lydon made any money in real estate is absolute nonsense"

REALLY? http://homes.yahoo.com/photos/sex-pistols-johnny-rotten-selling-really-un-punk-malibu-ranch-house-for-1-995-million-1386027757-slideshow/

Len disses Axl again "Someone mentioned 'stage presence' (he means me), thats about it...and even thats a load of shit, Axl Rose has stage presence? OR, more accurately, he has a set routine of about 5 different little dances he does, the hip wind, the kicking his front foot in the air, the mic stand stroke and a couple of others and thats about it, even on his best day. "

McLaren has said that if he met Sid first, he would have been the singer. I already said that Lydon

is a good lyrist. (Axl is far superior.) I feel they would have gone off with another singer and

punk lyrics are not that hard!! Again, I like Lydon but he is not on the level as Axl. Axl is a composer

in another league, he is an entertainer in another league and A SEX SYMBOL in ....!! Anyone jealous?!!!

Edited December 29, 2013 by ohlovelyrita

[magisme]

I don't see how this is better than Red.

[ohlovelyrita]

Also Len said above he didn't hate Robert Plant:

He wrote:

"Fuckin' Robert Plant, some fuckin' provincial tossbag out of fuckin' West Brom bangin' on about fuckin' goblins and that, do me a fuckin' favour. Bands like fuckin' Led Zeppelin, and all your fuckin' heavy metalley type fuckin' bands just ruined rock n roll, took all the life out of it and made it into some college boy viynl collecting staring with their gobs open at a 20 foot high stage stage thing, was meant to be about lookin' cool, dancin', having a laugh and blowing off steam, not the fuckin' ladybird book of witches set to music. The fuckin' metallers are the worst too, Zep, for all their crapness, at least had a groove here and there, you could move to it if you wanted, the wrong parts were accentuated and made a meal of and the whole thing was taken down the wrong path. Bunch of fuckin' droopy faced miserablist prannies walkin' around with long hair listening to 20 minute fuckin' solos and that, bollocks."

http://www.mygnrforum.com/index.php?/topic/203762-stairway-to-heaven-vs-sweet-child-o-mine/page-2 Comment #22

Never trust anyone that doesn't like Led Zeppelin!