themadcaplaughs

I appreciate everyone's positive response regarding my Buckethead information. Having been a fan of him since the mid-1990s, his presence in GN'R intrigued me, and I have spent much time trying to figure out what the hell happened.

Was Bucket taking the band in a different direction than where it has ended up?

Why did Brain stick with the program after Bucket had left?

Why is Tommy still in the band? It sounds like he's been a source of tension for a long time?

All of the following I'm about to say is my own opinion, more or less everything I know for sure and am willing to attribute to others I've said, but I'll tackle these questions with my own logic...

1. I certainly do not think Buckethead was taking the band in a completely new direction, but comparing the demos of songs like "There was a Time" and "I.R.S." with the finished version, as well as seeing which songs Bucket helped write ("Sorry" and "Shackler's Revenge") show he certainly took the music towards areas outside the parameters other players were bringing.

2. I really cannot say why Brain stuck around. My guess would be the pay, recognition, and the fact that he seems more willing to collaborate and play with others more than Bucket.

3. Tommy is a good question. I've read a lot of people on this board say he is sort of an asshole, and he has made clear in numerous interviews that he and Axl do not get along at certain times. MSL even said in one of his posts that the band was having trouble with Tommy's drinking (if you choose to believe MSL). My best guess would be since Tommy has been there since 1998, and is a great bass player for the band, that Axl wants to keep some of the "old guard" around.

I also found the idea of Bucket not promoting Chinese Democracy odd as it would have been a feather in his cap instead of his remix albums like Forensic Follies and Needle in a Slunk Stack. Even if he had hard feelings on the band and what he went through he should have at least associated himself with it somehow as it showcased a lot of his talents. One thing that I have always liked from the Cornbugs dvds was seeing a framed poster from the Guns Vegas shows hanging at Bucket's house. Even if Axl puts out a new album I hope Bucket and Finck's work is in the same capacity as CD and I could handle little sprinkles of DJ Ashba and Bumblefoot.

He honestly does feel completely betrayed by the whole GN'R experience, and I'm sure contractually he's also been forced to keep his mouth shut, making it even more degrading that they pimped his presence on Chinese Democracy.

I appreciate people telling their "inside stories", but since this is the internet, I hope you'll forgive me for taking them with a grain of salt.

Completely understand, if I were in your position I would not put a lot of stock into what I say since rumors float around GN'R camps, but that is why I have been very careful to attribute my "inside" (if you wanna call it that) info to my friend while making sure what I am simply making guesses at is attributed only to me.

Chinese Democracy: 10

Shackler's Revenge: 10

Better: 9

Street of Dreams: 6

If the World: 7

There was a Time: 7

Catcher in the Rye: 6

Scraped: 4

Riad N' the Bedouins: 5

Sorry: 8

I.R.S. : 8

Madagascar: 7

This I Love: 10

Prostitute: 9

Thanks for anyone who provides legit info to this topic. If what Madcap says is true then screw Tommy Stinson and that hack writer Del James. Seems like Bucket came to the table with legit stuff to contribute even as Guns really wasn't a fave band of his as well as inspiring Axl and he just got treated badly by band members and people in the studio. Who wouldn't be burned by that along with a prolonged release date for the album and an aborted tour. I could see why Axl had the set list as it was for the 01-02 shows as it showed a few CD songs but most importantly showed that the then new band was a force with the songs, mainly Appetitie, that everyone knows and loves. Still I'm sure Bucket would have departed sooner than later as their shows have been pretty much the same. Hope his stuff is on any other released material.

As I've said, my theory on Del and Tommy is completely speculative, based entirely on what other users have told me on various GN'R Web sites, and the fact that Tommy has never done anything but talk shit about Bucket. Everything else though, I'll stand behind 100%.

But Bucket is really weird, it's not an act.

Actually, a lot of it is a very immersive act. I've met the guy a handful of times, and while he is certainly a little off-center, his act is simply that, an act.

More, please. This is the best stuff I've read in years. Can you elaborate on the A-Group / B-Group comment? I'm not sure I follow. Were GN'R divided during recording sessions? I've been cursing Tommy's name all night. I wish I knew why he and Del felt threatened by Buckethead, unless they were so staunchly supportive of Robin. Of course, Robin still belonged in the band and wouldn't be the same without him, as they are now.

Essentially, there were 3 (or possibly more) different little groups that each contributed to little parts of the sessions. I'll try to divide them up, but I'll be ignoring Duff and Matt Sorum who really did not contribute to what became Chinese Democracy.

A Group: The main "band" that people would think of. Dizzy Reed and Paul Tobias writing riffs and song ideas, with Tommy and Josh providing instrumentation and contributing to these ideas.

The other two "bands" were not really fully functioning musical units per se, but little splinter groups that contributed in various ways.

B Group probably would have been Josh Freese working with Billy Howerdel, who eventually brought in Chris Pittman to jam. Billy was brought in to help with engineering, but apparently Axl was (understandably) very impressed with Billy's guitar playing and had him work with making some riffs. As someone else pointed out, most of this stuff probably ended up becoming ideas that evolved into material for A Perfect Circle. At the end of everything, Billy ended up getting one credit on Chinese Democracy (digital editing on "There was a Time") and Chris became a full-fledged member of the band.

C Group would be Buckethead, who Axl was introduced to Axl by Josh. Josh left the band shortly thereafter and Buckthead brought in Brain to play. I'd assume that Brain also jammed with the "A' group a bit once Josh left, but he mainly jammed with Buckethead on the riffs he brought in, and also worked to re-record all of Josh's parts.

As for why Del and Tommy were angered by Buckethead, and this is pure speculation, but I think they felt that Buckethead, the first person in a long time that had really become close to Axl and changed his views on how the band should function, was a moneky wrench of sorts to the situation. Buckethead had just been in the band a year, and was looking like he'd inspired Axl and was moving the band as much as the other groups had with about 4 years worth of material. There was also the fact that Del, one of Axl's closest friends, saw Bucket as an invasion on his influence, and Tommy (the "general") was no longer the band member with the most sway in the proceedings. Bear in mind that the 1/1/2001 show was literally the first time that Tommy and Robin would have even met Buckethead, and he was in many ways the focal point of the show besides Axl. Furthermore, both were incredibly turned off by his whole act.

As for Robin, someone earlier mentioned Robin did not have a problem with Buckethead, but from what I've heard Robin hated Buckethead as much as Bucket hated Robin. Buckethead did not see why he was having to share lead guitar duties (something he was fully capable of by himself) with someone who abandoned the band and joined back at the last second. Robin saw Buckethead much as Slash saw Paul Tobias, Axl's boy who was given more glamour than he earned.

I'd like to know why there was hate between Bucket and Finck too. As much as Bucket seems to appreciate his fans I cannot see him walking away from someone just for mentioning GNR. Can you imagine someone going up to him and going "Your solo in There Was a Time" is epic and amazing and him just walking away? For me, Bucket seemed liek a new hope to the post-Slash band and everything that we saw as a public was just the beginning. And yes I am too bummed out that it never fleshed out the way that it should have. At least I got to see them live in 2002 and even then going to the show I didn't think it would happen.

Buckethead felt like he was used by the band as a scapegoat for RIR in 2004, and felt that it was duplicitous of Axl to claim Buckethead was using the band for his own selfish means, and then all of his material was used on the final product.

I've been told it's more than just the lack of new music and the aborted 2002 tour with Bucket, hence why he's had absolutely zero to do with Guns since 2004, unlike Brain and Robin. Apparently several people in the camp never liked him, ostracised him and lobbied for his ejection, particularly Tommy and Del, which makes perfect sense because they're the two least likely to remotely relate to Bucket in any kind of way i.e. they're pretty boorish and laddish blokes. They pretty much openly bullied the guy. Bucket was prepared to ride that bullshit out but not indefinitely without the album or a tour. He regularly goes back and works with the same people from parts of his past, all except Guns, because 'Guns' is a dirty word to him now. Axl also owns a tonne of stuff that Bucket recorded which he'd love to use but can't because legally it's Axl's. After 10 years, and knowing Twat gets pulled out once every few years...it must be pretty depressing.

Biggest waste ever imo. Should have been Axl and Bucket on album number 3 or 4 by now, on the cover of Rolling Stone.

I know someone in the Buckethead camp (and cannot say who and how they are connected) but all this is true plus more. Apparently Robin and Buckethead did not get along well. Less open bullying like Tommy, but apparently Buckethead was really upset that Robin, who left the band so suddenly in 1999, was welcomed back with open arms in 2000 AND given the spot of being one of the lead guitarists. My friend also claimed that there were rumors that Buckethead quit as early as 2002-2003, and he was used as an excuse for the band not being able to play RIR in 2004.

Either way, as others have pointed out, Buckethead does NOT talk about Guns N' Roses at all, and it is sort of an unofficial rule with his people to NEVER mention anything about his tenure in the band. He even said the few times fans have asked Bucket about Guns N' Roses after shows, he has either completely ignored it, or in some cases walked away.

I have no doubt Paul helped Guns N' Roses evolve into what it is today. Axl would not have said this if it was not true. That being said, I think he acted more as a "security blanket" to Axl helping him write songs than any real true vitruso. I give Paul Tobias complete respect, but I think a lot of people are giving him more credit than he may be due because he is sort of an unknown/"wild card" in the GN'R universe.

Didn't Mark Canter say at some point that Izzy came bakc briefly in 1996 and the early UYI lineup jammes a bit before things completely fell to pieces.

He's talked about it before, basically the idea that someone who lives next door to you and lives a seemingly normal life can perform obscene and violent acts on a nightly basis.

Never had a huge problem with Dizzy or the big 1992 show. It was all just part of the band's evolution.

Parental Advisory system is COMPLETELY voluntary in the United States. Axl could have as many songs with the same level of profanity/vulgarity as "Silkworms," or even worse and would not have to put a Parental Advisory sticker on there if the record label did not require it. In many cases, albums are just given the sticker to make it seem more appealing to younger audiences.

I bring that up, not as a criticism of Slash, but to illustrate the unfair double standard that many bitter ex-fans apply to GNR. GNR can gross 400k while Slash grosses 20k and yet somehow GNR gets painted as some humongous failure. It's very confusing.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that Slash should be embarrassed that his show only had 600 people at it. I don't think ANYBODY should be embarrassed. Axl is doing his thing, Slash is doing his thing, I enjoy both, good luck to both of them.

Axl is also using a name that in and of itself will draw more attention.

I think the fact that it closes out the Use Your Illusions albums combined with the fact that Izzy famously claimed he had no idea the song was on the album gave people a bad taste for it.

Sounded good to me. You are all just too damn critical sometimes.

Just a kick ass rock band. To me, the exemplified what rock was about...doing whatever the hell you wanted.

DJ's a very nice guy but he's really irritating when he tried too hard to look like a rockstar. Waaayyy toooo hard. Waaaaayy.

My biggest complaint with DJ Ashbaa: the endless social media postings about what a badass rockstar he is and how he and Axl are so close.

Even if this did happen (which it would not, but I'll pretend for the sake of the argument) I would not be interested in hearing it. There are too many disparate musical elements that only work in Guns N' Roses because they are united by Axl's music.

I think people on various GNR boards are too close to it all to have been truly blown away. We're the fans that followed the project for 10 years, heard all the leaks and bootlegs from 2001 on, and were well acquainted with the material when it finally officially came out. The "radical" sound is more of a reality to people who had never heard any of the leaks or watched any performances over the past decade. To those people, it was a departure with some familiarity. Long time fans who followed what was going on had spoiled themselves years before the album ever came out. They were used to the sounds and directions Axl went. The impact of the record was pretty blunted on those people compared to people who were hearing TWAT, Catcher, and Madagascar for the very first time.

Could not have summed it up better myself. Not to mention that the "radical"sound was more or less something cooked up by the media to get press.

Looking back at this going on 4 years later, I can really see that Chinese Democracy was Axl's Fantasia.

Still come back to this show frequently after all these years.

Dizzy. No doubt about it. If Axl did not think so Dizzy would not have been in the band for 21 years now.

Very cool. Hope it's not just for the one show.

I seen Billy Corgans dad play a show a few years ago at a bar near my house, he hates Billy Corgan and said that when Corgan became big he was an asshole to him, i assume Corgans dad taught him how to play, who knows

WOW guess i was wrong

Corgan's father was also physically abusive to him as well as a drug addict. I'm sure they have had their differences in the past, but they seem to be cool now. He played with Billy at a Smashing Pumpkins show I saw in Florida in 2008.

Earlier I would have said cancel the tour, but Bumblefoot's tweets the other night made it clear that he would rather be playing than moping around and that playing music is his own form of therapy.

Axl is perfectly content with his decision not to attend the Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame; in his eyes I think he saw it as doing something for the fans. If music comes out soon, it'll be because it was meant to.

Like pretty much any rock band with more than two guitarists, it is true that there are moments where one guitarist (usually Richard unfortunately) is not doing too much, but it also provides a situation where the various parts of the songs can be played flawlessly without the usual concern of a two guitar lineup: the lead guitarist having to switch effortlessly between lead and rhythm duties.