Lies They Tell

My top 5 artists:

1. Guns n' Roses

2. Nirvana

3. Grimes

4. The Strokes

5. The Beatles

 

My top 50 songs of 2020 were:

1. Brianstorm - Arctic Monkeys

2. Chinese Democracy - Guns N' Roses

3. 4 AEM - Grimes

4. Double Talkin Jive - Guns N' Roses

5. The Headmaster Ritual - The Smiths

6. Sphynx - La Femme

7. Let It Happen - Tame Impala

8. Nightrain - Guns n' Roses

9. Band of Gypsies - Cypress Hill

10. Mon Amie La Rose - Francoise Hardy

11. This Is The New Shit - Marilyn Manson

12. Brother Love's Travelling Salvation Show - Neil Diamond

13. Xtal - Aphex Twin

14. No Time To Die - Billie Eilish

15. Reefer Man - Cypress Hill

16. Yesterdays - Guns N' Roses

17. Where Is My Mind - Pixies

18. bury a friend - Billie Eilish

19. Someday - The Strokes

20. Books Of War Instrumental - Omegah Red

21. Genesis - Grimes

22. Children of The Grave - Black Sabbath

23. Cold Out There - Jon Hopkins

24. Anarchy In The Uk - Sex Pistols

25. Don't Think Twice It's Alright - Bob Dylan

26. Blackbird - The Beatles

27. Infinite Love Without Fulfilment - Grimes

28. Better - Guns N' Roses

29. Not Alike - Eminem

30. At The Door - The Strokes

31. Medicine Man - Dr. Dre

32. Feels Like We Only Go Backwards - Tame Impala

33. Godzilla - Eminem

34. American Guilt - The Unknown Mortal Orchestra

35. Road Trippin' - Red Hot Chili Peppers

36. Still Disappointed - Stromzy

37. Shoot Me Again

38. Don't Damn Me - Guns N' Roses

39. White Wacuum - Crisopa

40. Radio Friedly Unit Shifter - Nirvana

41. I'm In Here - Sia

42. When The Sun Goes Down - Arctic Monkeys

43. Lithium - Nirvana

44. Copy Of A - Nine Inch Nails

45. Rap God - Eminem

46. Thuggin' - Freddie Gibbs

47. The Beautiful People - Marilyn Manson

48. Strawberry Fields Forever - The Beatles 

49. Day Is Done - Nick Drake

50. Sunshine Of Your Love - Jimi Hendrix

Mine:

 

I haven't given up on the band. If they come back and start touring after this corona break and there's still no new album anywhere in sight, then I'll give up on this band.

Well I'm not going to any shows, before they release a new album, so in that sense I don't really care what they play, before they release a new album. If they play Hardschool, I'm happy. But if there's no new album in sight, then I won't be happy for long.

The General for sure!

3 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

One a million chance of that though🤣

One in a million chance of what?

3 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

an act like GNR having a massive mainstream hit this far into their career is just so unlikely.

Did you even read what I said? I specifically said that they don't need a massive mainstream hit in order for the next GNR record to be considered one of the classic GNR albums by the future generations. There's a lot of area between a massive mainstream hit and being listened to only by people who would search for your music anyway. So why are you arguing about if GNR can make a massive mainstream hit? Who are you talking to? Let's not argue about totally different things here.

Like I said, I'm not interested in having the EXACT same discussion over and over again. You have NO new arguments here, so go read my old  posts. You're not the first one who replied to my post and I've gone through this conversation already.

When you look at streaming numbers  which are a good indication of what the young people (in other words future generations) actually listen to, many songs on Chinese Democracy are already more popular than most of the songs on the Use Your Illusion albums, so it's not at all far fetched to think that the next GNR album has potential to be considered one of the  legendary GNR albums now that Slash is back in the band too. They don't need a massive mainstream hit for that. But making the release of the album as big as it can be still helps a lot in achieving that, because of all the reasons I've mentioned in my earlier discussions. You can't make it as big as it possibly can be during the pandemic. It's just not factually possible.

15 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Gnrs future studio albums are doomed to sit below afd and uyi... that is what it is. 

As for making a big statement comeback, all bells and whistles... there will still be people who do not know gnr have a record our, there will be people who don't know Chinese is out, there will be people surprised that gnr are still an "active" band. 

Your premise of waiting to capture the most peoples attention falls apart, because the people that are interested will seek lyr the record if it's released today or 5yrs from now, pandemic or no pandemic.

Streaming also means something of course! but it absolutely is not the full picture, and if you base everything related to a nostalgia band like gnr on streaming your results are going to be off! 

The new album will be accepted more than CD,  but it's never going to please everyone or compare to albums that people grew up enjoying first 25/30yrs. If they released it tomorrow or 5yrs from now, you're looking at the same reaction and sales figures. Like I said before, the only possible chance of a greater response is if the album somehow breaks the mainstream... unfortunately whatever music Slash and co write is not the mainstream, so there is a limited interest in comparison to 30yrs ago when uyi came out.

I'm pretty sure, I had this conversation already with someone else. I have no interest in repeating everything that I already said.

So all I'm gonna say is that there's a huge area between being a massive mainstream hit and being listened only by the people who would would search for your music anyway. It's not either this or that. You can have an album that grabs the attention of tons of casual people who would normally never even think about searching for new GNR music, without the album being a massive mainstream hit.

You can believe what ever you want to believe. I don't really care. I've explained my point of view already. It's entirely possible for the next GNR album to be viewed by the future generations as one of the legendary GNR albums. It's not doomed to be forgotten. And yes, the timing of the release does matter.

What makes you think that Axl couldn't handle Reckless Life? It's a fast paced song that's mostly screaming, much like Shadow of Your Love and Nice Boys. Both of which fit Axl's current voice pretty well.

1 hour ago, jamillos said:

Some of the lower parts, but I'm too lazy to pick them one by one, sorry. There'd definitely be some helium. 

The only moments, when his lower mid range might sound like helium is when he's singing mostly in upper mid range and when it goes shortly to lower voice and then back to upper mid range again. He can't switch to his chest voice in moments like that. But in songs like Rock the Rock, that are mostly in lower mid range, his voice should be pretty strong, cause he can use his chest voice constantly.

31 minutes ago, jamillos said:

You're right, but there still are rasped parts which he would normally do with mickey when live. 

What part of Rock the Rock do you think he woud do with Mickey live?

2 hours ago, jamillos said:

Let's not forget that no matter how shitty he sounded in the last 3 years (and in the Selects), there's still this - see below. And we're talking about the middle vocal level here, which theoretically shouldn't have rasp and should suck eggs but somehow doesn't. This is 2018, folks! The apparent truth is, he can nail anything in studio. I suspect it's a certain Brazilian team that inconspicuously prevents him from changing various arrangements in terms of live singing / song choices. 
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjDGvoL4woE
(Rock the Rock)

Yeah, I believe he could still sing with the Rock the Rock voice. Middle vocal level is a broad term. He's using his chest voice here. In other words he sings only with his lower middle voice which is still strong and he screams with his higher mid voice and he's always strong when he screams. This is the same voice he used on the Brian Johnsson AC/DC songs. In songs like these he never has to sing with his upper mid voice. He gets to scream when he's using the upper mid voice. GNR songs often require a lot of upper mid voice singing and that's the problem. This is much closer to his natural voice.

2 hours ago, MildlyArtistic said:

None of the above. Rework the setlist to feature songs that Axl can sound good singing, maybe actually releases new music so Axl has stuff to sing with his current range, and rework some existing songs for his current voice. And while they're at it, tell Axl there's no shame in tuning down.

I mostly agree, but honestly Axl tends to sound the best when he screams, so tuning down is not always the best solution. Nice Boys is a great example of this. He always sounds good on it when they play it fast and he can scream every word. But when they play it slower, Axl can't scream it from start to finish. He can't drag his screaming voice long enough when they play it slower, so he's forced to use his singing voice and then he automatically sounds worse.

My favorite angsty songs are Coma and Sorry.

When I don't want to feel angsty and kinda want to get into another headspace I'll rather listen to something faster like Double Talkin Jive, Shackler's Revenge or It's So Easy.

For some reason the song Chinese Democracy makes me feel ambitious.

Prostitute is a good song when I feel like I don't want to sell my soul.

The only GNR songs that have made me cry are This I Love and It's Alright. This I Love sometimes still brings a tear to my eye, so I'd say that one is probably the most emotional song for me.

8 hours ago, allwaystired said:

I'm still not too sure what your point is then......we know that a handful of GNR songs have slipped into the 80s kareoke bar nostalgia scene, for better or worse. That isn't really a revelation for anyone. 

If we think anyone outside of an increasingly small (dwindling by the day) hardcore of fans really care about a new GNR album we're deluding ourselves. Literally no-one I know that loves music could care a damn what GNR do. The forums are the only place that does now. 

The real world probably lost interest about 1993, when the music world moved on to other acts. A few of them stuck their heads round the door to play nostalgia and hear the old songs on the NITL tour. They've largely moved on now.

If we think a new GNR album is going to change music in any way, shape or form, we're in cloud cuckoo land. That's irrelevant though- we'd probably enjoy it. But let's not kid ourselves here about it's importance.

If the damn thing exists, just get it out there. 

A major reason why people stopped caring about a new GNR record is, because GNR kinda became a joke when Slash left the band. 

But when Slash and Axl reunited even many casuals wanted to witness that, because GNR is a legendary band.

But most people lump it in the same category with other old bands. Very few people are expecting them to release new material ever again. Most people have never even heard Chinese Democracy. 

That's why it's super important to create as much hype as possible when they release their next record. Not release it at the worst possible time. That has kinda been my point. When casuals hear the new GNR single  I guarantee you, there will still be people who are surprised to hear that Slash is back in the band. It's no secret that the mainstream media is bad at informing people about rock music. So people are more likely to hear about these things through friends. But people don't really meet their friends during quarantine. So the best time to make the release of the comeback album as big as it possibly can be is to release it after the pandemic is over. There should be a tour, press and promotion, a song in a movie and all that shit. That would be the best way to create hype and make as many casuals hear about the album as possible. At the same time the comeback album would also boost ticket sales, so I think it's very much understandable why they're not releasing the album during a pandemic.

Why did I talk about the streaming numbers then? Because people are downplaying the relevance of GNR. Streaming numbers don't tell you everything about what peoole are listening to obviously, because older people listen to albums mostly. But it tells you a lot about what kind of older music still resonate with younger audiences. People here are comparing GNR to Whitesnake for crying out loud. Most young people have never even heard of Whitesnake. Gnr wipes the floor with Whitesnake when it comes to streaming numbers. The fact that GNR is pretty much equal to The Rolling Stones when it comes to streaming numbers is a pretty big deal. It doesn't mean that GnR is as big as The Rolling Stones, but in the eyes of the younger audiences they are pretty close. The fact that GNR has songs in the top 500 most streamed songs is huge. Very few older bands are as streamed. Young people who like rock music most likely listen to Guns n' Roses. Not even the album Chinese Democracy is completely irrelevant. It's a more popular album than Black Sabbaths 13 or Mötley Crues Saints of Los Angeles at least with the younger audiences.

I've been arguing with people over if it's possible for GNR to still affect their legacy. Will they forever be remembered only because of AFD and UYI albums or can they still release a legendary album and songs that will be remembered as some of their best songs ever. Is the next GNR album doomed to be forgotten or is it possible that future generations will consider it one of the legendary GNR albums? I've been arguing about this and that's why I mentioned that when you look at the streaming numbers, it seems like in the eyes of the younger generations This I Love is already more popular than deep cuts like Coma, Locomotive and Double Talkin Jive and it's already almost as popular as Yesterdays. So is it really a far fetched idea that now when Slash is back in the band, they could create songs that future generations will consider some of their best songs? I think it's entirely possible. I'm not making predictions, but I think it's possible. That seems to be a controverial statement since I've had to defend that point of view here.

58 minutes ago, allwaystired said:

Oh please stop with the 'stramimg numbers' thing.

It's thorough nonsense to say that anything on CD comes anywhere near any of their previous material in terms of fans, and I say that as a big fan of CD.  

Steaming is an utterly discredited way of giving the popularity of anything.....as the notion that 'This I Love' is more popular than older material quite clearly shows. 

The waffle about GNR being as big as the Rolling Stones because of streaming numbers is even more fucking ludicrous. Has it not occured to you that perhaps all the billions and billions of Rolling Stones fans might not be streaming them day in day out and perhaps playing their billions and billions of owned albums? You seem absolutely OBSESSED with streaming figures as proof of everything. Who the hell is gauging how popular Black Sabbath are in 2020 by how many monthly listeners they have?! 

Springsteen sold 52,000 copies of his new album in the first week of release. One of the fastest selling albums of the year. 95 per cent of that was physical purchases, so in his case streaming is utterly irrelevant as his fans prefer to buy. A success of an album that went to number one. Streaming? Fuck all. I imagine he couldn't give a flying fuck about that. 

There are many cases like this, that run both ways, so for the love of God please stop telling people obvious nonsense like 'This I Love' is more popular than 'Pretty Tied Up'. It's not a 'fact' in any way shape or form. 

Copies of UYI and AFD sit in millions of homes. Copies of CD do not. There's a fact for you. 

 

 

I knew someone would get triggered.   But please respond to me if you're talking to me. I almost didn't even see your message cause I don't read every single message here.

Streaming numbers tell a lot about the future and what old music resonates with the younger generations. 

I'm sorry that I wasn't more clear with what I meant. I had no intention to ignore all the wonderful people who listen to albums. I'm perfectly aware that a huge amount of Rolling Stones and Bruce Springsteen fans only listen to albums and they don't stream music. 

And I know that many GNR fans too only listen to albums and in that sense streaming numbers don't tell you the whole truth about what songs are currently the most popular GNR songs.

My focus in these discussions isn't really on what happens to be the biggest band right now and what has been the biggest band before. I'm not really interested in what songs have traditionally been the most popular songs. I'm focusing on the future. I'm interested in what type of music is timeless and what type of old music even younger generations listen to.

12 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

Anyway! we've made peace but I had to answer a few of your comments😅✌️✌️✌️✌️✌️✌️✌️✌️✌️✌️

 

That's the thing! It's difficult to agree to disagree, when the conversation is still in many ways unfinished. But don't worry. I won't make this a long response. Just wanted to clear up a couple of things.

I don't think my comments about Black Sabbaths safe record were besides the point. Sure, the fanbase wanted that kind of a record, but you can't make timeless music if you're too concerned with pleasing fans. There's nothing wrong with focusing on pleasing fans only, but that kind of safe music will not be remebered for long

Every band will always be criticized by their fans for trying something new, but if you want to make timeless music you gotta create something new instead of repeating yourself.

I know that many GNR fans also want an AFD2. It's not easy to balance between creating something fresh and interesting and keeping your fanbase happy. But as long as Slash brings his signature sound to the songs, I believe that the fanbase will be more responsive towards the next GNR album. So hopefully they'll find a good balance between Axl's desire to not repeat himself and Slash's familiar guitar sounds.

The Hard School rehersal was different compared to all the Going Down stuff before, since back then we didn't really know if Axl was ever even involved with those rehearsals or if it was just the band. But this time we heard the whole band, including Axl practicing Hard School, so that was neat.

2 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

Funny you mentioned psychology and yet you underestimate people's connection to songs like Yesterday or or whatever other deep cut from 30yrs ago. Those songs have history and most people have memories attached to hearing them for the first time or hearing them at a specific moment. I loved the last Metallica album, I really like Moth Into Flame and think it's a great song as good as a lot of their other material! it's about as good as Holier than thou... but when push comes to shove, Holier than thou is going to prevail! if I have to make my top 50 favourite songs from them. 

But I'm not underestimating anyone's connection to any song. One of the main reasons why I think that they should release the comeback album after the pandemic is over is because that way people have the chance to enjoy the songs more fully.  They can make roadtrips with their friends and listen to the new album on the road. They can have parties and discover the album there. People can have fond memories of going to their first GNR concert and hearing all the brand new GNR songs there. You get much richer memories from the songs when you can connect the release of the GNR comeback album to a happier time in your life. You don't get all that interesting memories from the songs, if you just listen to the album bored at home in quarantine.

You see, the connection argument applies just as well to the new songs. That is one reason why it would be madness to release the album now because people won't associate the songs to great memories when they're just sitting at home. The album would have much stronger impact if they release it after the pandemic is over.

You say that people have strong emotional connections to the deep cuts from 30 years ago and because of that new GNR material can never compete with that. What if I told you that This I Love is already a more popular song than Coma or Double Talkin Jive? This I Love has over 21 million streams on Spotify and Coma has over 12 million streams. Double Talkin Jive has over 13 million streams. And This I Love isn't the only song from CD that beats those deep cuts. Chinese Democracy and Better have 18 million streams. In fact most songs from the Use Your Illusion albums have less streams than these Chinese Democracy songs. So if Chinese Democracy, an album without Slash, and an album that wasn't hyped much after it's release, still manages to compete with the Use Your Illusion albums, why do you think it's far fetched to think that a new GNR album with Slash and Duff could fair even better?

20 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

You keep saying it's the worst time to release a record, but I and many others have pointed out that it's actually a great time to do it, I really don't get how you can't understand that.

If you've read all my counter arguments, you know why I disagree. You need much better arguments to convince me. 

24 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

I want to hear new GNR music, but I perfectly understand that it will be forgotten, just like Black Sabbaths 13. A reunion record that was anticipated for 30 years? it got some media up front and then slowly but surely once radio didn't really support it (as radio does for all old rock bands) it fell off the face of the earth. GNRs fate will be the same, and you are delusional to think it'll be different whether they release it today or in a years time when touring freely is allowed. 

Black Sabbaths 13 is a good record, but it's a pretty typical Black Sabbath record. It's not surprising that the album is largely forgotten because it doesn't really bring much new to the table. If you want to make iconic songs that stand the test of time, you should do something differently. Black Sabbath became popular in the 70s because it was something totally different that nobody had heard before. But you can't make timeless songs by doing the same thing over and over again. Chinese Democracy is a more streamed album than Black Sabbath's 13. The main reason for that is of course the fact that Guns n' Roses is in general a more streamed band than Black Sabbath. Black Sabbath has almost 8 million monthly listeners. Guns N' Roses has over 18 million monthly listeners.  I think it's safe to say that the next GNR album will be more popular than Chinese Democracy because Slash is back, so because of that reason alone people will be much more responsive towards the album. And if they actually promote the album and tour and all that jazz, it could be a much more popular album compared to CD. So based on all that it's very likely that the next GNR album will be a much more popular album than Black Sabbaths 13.  

The reason why I have faith that GNR could still release an album that will go down in history and won't be forgotten is because Axl doesn't really repeat himself much. He actually tries to reinvent himself. Sorry was unlike anything we had heard from GNR before. This I Love was unlike anything we had heard from GNR before. Better was unlike anything we had heard from GNR before. Even unreleased songs like Atlas Shrugged sound different compared to anything we've heard from GNR before. This is the reason why I believe that GNR could still deliver an album that will be remembered, because almost every song that Axl writes sounds different from other songs that he has written. When you combine Axl's songwriting skills with Slash's ability to create iconic guitar solos, there's an enormous amount of potential there.

None of us can predict the future and it would be delusional to think that you can. It's true that the mainstream radio doesn't really play rock music much these days and even rock music stations usually just play the old stuff. But I still don't think that it's impossible that GNR could write an album that will go down in history.  I mean there's people on this forum who consider Chinese Democracy the best GNR album of all times. So there's a good chance that a lot more people will consider the next GNR album the best GNR record ever because it's much more socially acceptable in the rock scene to love a GNR album that has Slash on it. There's a chance that the next GNR album won't be appreciated all that much when it's released, but as time goes by, it will gain more and more fans and some day many of the songs on that album might be among the most streamed GNR songs. All of this is of course speculation, but you only need to look at the streaming numbers of Chinese Democracy songs to see that what I'm saying is not far fetched.

It's a fact that This I Love is a more streamed song than Locomotive, 14 Years or Pretty Tied Up. It's something that you people just have to learn to deal with. I mentioned earlier that it's perfectly possible that GNR could still write a song that's more popular than Yesterdays. Well Yesterdays has 31 million streams and This I Love has 21 million streams., so even This I Love is already pretty close to breaking Yesterdays's streaming numbers. Is it really far fetched to think that with a lot of hype and with Slash's input they could write a song that is more popular than Yesterdays? I'll tell you, it's not.

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

A new record doesn't make much difference to their career (no it won't course correct and make them the new Stones)

Guns N' Roses will never be considered as important as The Rolling Stones, but they are already almost as popular, when it comes to streaming numbers. The Rolling Stones has currently 18 921 530 monthly listeners and Guns N' Roses has 18 236 734 monthly listeners. I'd say it's safe to assume that GNR will take the lead when they release their next album. Of course that doesn't actually make them the new Stones. I'm just saying that GNR is a very big band with lots of potential. I'm not expecting miracles from them, but it's not far fetched to think that they might still do great things that will leave an impact on their legacy.

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Also, you're saying "if they tour with no new music when they come back I'll criticise them" I mean, where have you been all this time? every leg that same thing is said. Then they go away for a few months, people get excited and then someone drops the line... sure enough, no new music. Rise repeat. Just criticise them now, get the jump on them! 

I've been here all the time. Sometimes I've criticized them and sometimes I've defended them. I think it was very understandable that they couldn't release a new album right after the reunion. It would've been dumb to release a Buckethead GNR album without Slash and Duff in the middle of a reunion. But remaking the album with Slash and Duff takes time, especially if they want to write brand new songs for the album too. So it's understandable that they didn't release a new album right away. But as the tour continued and there was no sign of a new album I got frustrated too and I've criticized them. I've been vocal about the fact that I'll never go to a GNR show again, before they release a new album. But when they rehearsed Hard School at the start of this year they kinda earned my trust again. We actually know that they were planning to play a new song. This pandemic of course sucks, but I can't blame them for not releasing the album now.  I wouldn't release the album while there's a pandemic either. But if they start touring with no signs of new music then I'll criticize them again. It's really simple. I criticize them when I feel like they deserve to be criticized.

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

best thing to do is agree to disagree. peace 😃

Sure! Peace!

35 minutes ago, adamsapple said:

Depends on the music and the integrity of the artist behind it. Until recently, GNR was successfully touring behind albums that have been released decades ago. Your point is totally valid for Justin Bieber but not for acts like GNR. If they release an album during the pandemic while people have nothing to do, do home office, lose their jobs or just be bored to exhaustion in quarantine, they will come to appreciate the music even more as it may grow on them beyond the flavour of the day and agressive marketing shoves down their throats, Actually, now is the perfect time to release music of substance as people have time to let it sink in.

I get your point but I disagree. I mean sure, they could release the album during the pandemic and sure they could make a somewhat successful tour afterwards.  But I don't think it would be as impactful as if they released the comeback album after the pandemic. If they released the album during the pandemic, it would be kinda like the Chinese Democracy situation. There were lots of die hard GNR fans who were super stoked to hear the songs finally played live. But Chinese Democracy didn't attract all that many casuals, because there was so little hype around it when it was released.

If they want to continue selling out stadiums, I believe that they need to attract casual people more. And the best way to do that is by generating as much hype as possible. You need to get people to talk about GNR. You can't really do that properly when everyone's in quarantine.

1 minute ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

We agree that they could still write some great songs. They could put out a really great album. But at this stage of their careers, unless one of them dies right after it's released, their legacy will always be AFD and UYI.

Let's agree to disagree then. I don't think we can predict the future. I don't think either one needs to die necessarily for them to affect their legacy. Time will tell how things will go eventually, but I don't think we can predict it.

2 hours ago, Gordon Comstock said:

 

The numbers would be bigger for GNR, but the general sentiment is the same. It won't be as good as their early albums, it will still be successful, and it won't have any grand effect one way or the other on GNR's legacy.

An album released by 60-year-olds who are 3+ decades into their careers isn't going to be nearly as important as you'd like to believe. It's simply not going to "add to their legacy" or "create rock history" or anything dramatic like that.

Unlike you I'm not pretending to know the future and everything. What I'm saying is that they could still make songs that will be remembered as some of their best songs. They can still make an impact in the bands legacy both in positive and negative ways. I'm not saying that any of this will happen. I'm saying that it could happen. You're the only wannabe know it all here thinking that you know how things will go eventually.

Many artists have released some of their biggest hits when they were older. Hurt is by far the most streamed song by Johnny Cash and he was 71 when he released that song. My Way is one of Frank Sinatras biggest songs and he was 54 years old when he released that song. Cher had her biggest hit at the age of 52. Louis Armstrong was 66 years old when he recorded What A Wonderful World. It makes no sense to me that you act like you know exactly what Axl and Slash are capable of.

1 hour ago, Tom2112 said:

The chances of guns releasing even one song that is viewed in the same league as of their old now classic songs is unlikely. 

Depends what classic songs we're talking about. Making a song that's bigger than SCOM is almost impossible. But making a song that's bigger than Yesterdays is entirely possible.

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

What makes you think they won't bungle the marketing for a new record as bad as CD? 

When have I ever said that they won't bungle the marketing? I'm not making predictions here. I'm just saying that releasing their comeback album now is not a very good idea. If they play their cards right, there's a lot of potential in GNR still. But who know what's gonna happen.

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

A  new album obviously helps when it comes to touring, give everything a bit more excitement yada, yada!

Exactly!

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

The people who intended on buying your album have probably bought it within the 1st week these days. Outside of bands giving their albums alongside concert tickets it doesn't really move the  needle anymore. 

Well most people don't really buy albums these days, so I'm more interested in how many people will listen to their album on streaming services. Let's be real here for a second, most people who will listen to the next GNR record are casuals and not die hard fans. So no, most of their audience is definitely not people who buy their record within the 1st week. There's a huge number of casual fans of rock music, who probably haven't even heard that a new GNR album has been released within the 1st week. These are the people that they need to reach. And the more there's hype the more likely they will reach these people. If they want to release their comeback album in a big way, they need to get people to talk about the album. One way to get people to talk about the album is to announce a tour. When there's tour advertisements here and there, people will talk about it. Someone might mention that their friend is really excited about the GNR tour. Then the other person will ask, "did you hear the new GNR single?" Through this kind of chit chat most people will first hear about the album. If they want people to talk about the new GNR album, GNR has to be everywhere. Their music should be in movies and maybe even in videogames, there should be a tour that makes people talk about GNR too. One of the essential differences between releasing an album during a pandemic and releasing an album in normal circumstances, is the fact that in normal circumstances people spend a lot more time with their friends. In normal circumstances people are constantly visiting their friends and having parties. Then someone might start playing the new GNR album and that's one way the album will find new audiences.

Simply put, it's a much better time to release a new album, when there's no pandemic going on. It should be pretty obvious and I don't know why people act like it's a controversial statement. 

2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Finally, IF they release a good/great album that excitement doesn't just disappear!

Do you understand anything about psychology? Of course the excitement will mostly disappear if the band doesn't tour after the album has been released. Well obviously it depends on the person. Some (mainly die hard fans) will be super stoked when the band finally starts to tour, but for others the excitement has passed already. When the album is new and people are super excited about it, they're more likely to buy tickets without hesitation. If the band starts to tour a long time after the excitement has worn off already, people are more likely to focus on other things that are more relevant at that moment and their less likely to buy tickets to the shows.  You gotta strike while the iron is hot.

I feel like I've said everything I have to say about this topic. People have a weird tendency to assume that if I defend GNR on one issue (not releasing their comeback album during a pandemic) that must mean that I defend GNR on every issue and ignore all the faults that the band has ever done.

No, I think it's a reasonable excuse to not release one of your most important records at the worst possible time, but I'm not claiming that they will handle the release of the next GNR properly. I can't see the future. If they start touring again at some point and there's no new music in sight, I think they deserve all the criticism they get. At that point it's fair to say that the band is a nostalgia act and nothing else. But not releasing their comeback album during a pandemic is a wise choice if you ask me.

9 hours ago, Gordon Comstock said:

I think a good comparison to this will be Motley Crue's album Saints Of Los Angeles. It was their 'comeback' record, the tour was huge, tons of press, and it was honestly a pretty good Motley record (or so I thought at the time). It gave them some hype and fans enjoyed it, but in the end it didn't effect their "story". It wasn't even mentioned at the end of The Dirt movie. Their legacy had been established decades earlier... like GNR's has.

Yes, Motley Crue failed at making a great comeback album that would have affected their story in a meaningful way. Saints Of Los Angeles was decent, but even Chinese Democracy is a lot more streamed album than Saints Of Los Angeles is. At the end of the day Motley Crue is nowhere near GNR in terms of popularity. GNR has over 18 million monthly listeners on Spotify. Motley Crue has about 5 million monthly listeners. They're not in the same league.

So if Chinese Democracy is a lot more popular album than Saints Of Los Angeles, even though SOLA was heavily toured and Axl didn't tour at all for a year after CD was released, what would happen, if GNR actually toured when they release their comeback album and if they promoted it and if there was tons of press? I'm not saying that they're gonna save rock music or shit like that, but there's a good chance that they could still add to the legacy of Guns N' Roses in a positive way and affect how people write about the band in the future. There's still a good chance that some of the most popular GNR songs of all times will be written by this current incarnation of the band, Both Axl and Slash are hugely talented. They're not Kiss or Bon Jovi for crying out loud. They can still create rock history, if they play their cards right and don't release one of their most important records during the worst possible time.

9 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Now is as good a time as any to release a new record.

Don't act dumb. Of course it's a better time to release the record when they can actually tour along with it. The album will increase ticket sales and the concerts will increase album sales. It's not rocket science. I'm not saying that their comeback album wouldn't be popular if it was released now. But if it was released in a time when they can actually tour, the hype of the album wouldn't go to waste, but it would boost their ticket sales. Besides, the hype is just on a whole another level, if people are excited about a new GNR song and then they can tell their friend that they're gonna go see a GNR show the next month. Alternately they could release their album now and people would listen to the new album. They would ask their friend if they heard the new record. They would agree that it was great, but that's it. They would have nothing to look forward to. The hype is on a totally different level, when there's both an album and a tour that people can be excited about. Maybe a new GNR song could be added to a movie too and people would go crazy when they hear it in the cinema. It wouldn't be the same if they just heard the song on a Netflix show or something. I really shouldn't even have to explain these things to anyone. It is OBVIOUS that this is not as good of a time to release an album as a time when there is no pandemic ruining everything.

9 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Also, now that a vaccine is around the corner now is even more of a perfect time to release a new album.

Or you know, maybe just maybe, they could first wait and see how things go with the vaccine and then, when it's clear that the vaccine is working and all experts agree that things will go relatively back to normal soon, then they could announce a new album and a new world tour. 

9 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

last time they released an album they waited a full year to tour it!! SO touring obviously wasn't a huge promotional tool to them then, what has changed??

At least one thing has changed. Slash and Duff are back in the band, so when they release their next album the medias focus isn't on the lack of Slash. Axl doesn't have to explain to everyone why he's not working things out with Slash. Axl doesn't have to change peoples opinions about whether or not it's a good idea to continue with the band without Slash. There was so much negativity towards Axl's GNR back then because Slash was missing. Now all of that is history. This time the media hype will be positive, if the album is good. This time the focus will be on the fact that it's the first new album with Axl and Slash and for many it's the first real GNR record since the nineties. It's all positive. Back then so much of the hype around Chinese Democracy was negative, that it raises the question if it was actually a good thing that the hype died pretty soon. This time the hype will most likely be all positive, so we don't want the hype to die soon. We want the positive hype to continue as long as possible and a tour along with the album will help that for sure.

10 hours ago, allwaystired said:

Not sure streaming figures should be used as a barometer of anything really. I know of at least one (not very big) band who are rigging their streaming figures, so I imagine that sort of thing is absolutely rife higher up in the industry! 

First of all everything can be rigged to a certain degree. Album sales are constantly rigged when labels and artists buy their own albums. I do think that streaming figures are a much better barometer of measuring artists popularity than album sales is, because streams actually tell you how much people listen to your music. Many people buy albums because of the hype and then they never listen to those albums again. Streaming numbers on the other hand actually tell us about how much people actually listen to those songs.

Usually when streaming figures are rigged, it's done to boost the popularity of a new album. As far as I know it's not really something that artists do to keep their old songs relevant. If GNR was rigging their streaming numbers year by year, they would have been caught already. Why is it so hard to admit that GNR is a popular band? They just had one of the most successful tours of all times. Was that rigged too?They are popular. They don't need to manipulate their streaming numbers.

10 hours ago, allwaystired said:

It's all irrelevant anyway. We're yet to hear a note of new material, and until we do, I don't believe it exists. 

We have heard Slash play Hard School, so that's something.

40 minutes ago, Gordon Comstock said:

It's impossible to say how people will perceive the band decades from now, but yes, obviously the classic songs have stood the test of time so far. That doesn't really have anything to do with the current band, though.

Of course it has a lot to do with the current band. The current band is still writing the story of the band called Guns n' Roses. When people in the future write about Guns N' Roses they might either concentrate only on the first years and write that the band became a nostalgia act after that, or they might write that the band ended up creating some of their best songs at the end of their career.

Axl didn't tour for over a year after CD was released and it killed all the hype around that album. Whether or not that was a good thing is debatable since there was a lot of negative hype around the album. Who knows, maybe it was a good thing for the legacy of GNR, that the negative hype around CD ended as soon as possible. Nevertheless the fact is that many people didn't even notice that CD was released cause the hype around it ended so quickly.

So yes, not touring after you've released an album is a very effective way to kill all the hype around it. We don't want the hype to die quickly when they release their comeback album and the best way to keep the hype going is to have a tour along the album. The more there's hype around the album, the more people will listen to it and the bigger impact the album will leave on people. And the bigger impact they manage to leave on people, the more positively people will write about the last days of GNR in the future. So if they do the release of their comeback album right, it affects the way people will write about the legacy of GNR in the future.

1 hour ago, Gordon Comstock said:

And honestly, for the last 4 years I've been reading comments about how they couldn't release or work on new material because of the touring. Now they can't release an album because they've stopped touring?

If there's no new music in sight when they start to tour again, they're out of excuses. But I do think that not releasing a comeback album during a pandemic when you can't tour is a fair excuse.

12 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

@Lies They Tell is that spotify list the most recent? They update them every month, GNR made it to 198 on that list with SCOM. I can't see any other GNR tracks on there

It's the most recent I found. Welcome To The Jungle is there as well.

8 minutes ago, James Bond said:

Then why wasn't it announced ahead of the latest cash grab? They played the first show of "the next chapter" and had nothing new to show for it.

I don't have answers for everything, but we do know that they were rehearsing Hard School, so we know that there were plans to play new music.

12 minutes ago, James Bond said:

Sure, new music will help boost something different but at the end of the day the casuals will just go for the hits one way or another.

Many casuals only care about the hits, but I'd argue that they may not be able to sell out stadiums for long, if they don't release new music. It's not 1991, but obviously the comeback album of GNR will create hype, especially in the rock scene. It would be pointless to let the hype go to waste. Besides, the next album is important also when you look at the legacy of GNR and how people will be writing about the history of GNR in the future. If they want to release their come back album in a big way, the only way they can do it right is if there's a tour going along with it. The tour will increase album sales and streams and the album will increase ticket sales. 

29 minutes ago, James Bond said:

They'll be on to the next excuse.

If they start touring again with no new music in sight, then I'll agree with you. At that point there's NO EXCUSES for no new music. They've got plenty of time to work on the album now with the pandemic. They must have new music when they start touring again. Otherwise the band is dead. 

All I'm saying is that I actually think it's a good excuse to not release your comeback album now when there's a pandemic and they can't tour. But if they continue touring without new music after all of this, then there's no excuses whatsoever.