Last "Groundbreaking Album"

[ffrankwhite]

i agree with all of that but theres nothing, in terms of the meat and potatoes of music, that they did that was all that different. synthesisers had been used before, darkness had been mixed with sort of synthey dance before, look at Can...a lot of sort of German electronica. Joy Divisions venture into all that electronicey stuff almost as like a production-pushed thing. cant take nothing away from them and yes, the particular congregation of those facets created a pretty unique sound and it WAS influential (would we have a Morrisey without Curtis?) but you're REALLY REALLY overstating the point..

Maybe PiL - Metal Box? Right down to the actual release ideas.

I don't know. Depends what criteria you use.

its called Second Edition here mentioned it earlier....you have good taste. assuming that is that you like it

Yeah, to be honest i only got into it a month or so ago. Never really heard anything like it. Didn't even believe it was Lydon at first

One of those albums i've read about before i've actually discovered.

In a weird way, the more groundbreaking an album is, the more there is to write about it, and there's so much of interest about the album that can be discussed.

EDIT: As for Joy Division's impact, you can see it on a wave of the newer indie bands in the UK today such as Interpol, Editors etc...and thats beside what Gigger said about U2 and The Cure etc.

In a way, it's a good yardstick, if Joy Division hadn't broken any ground, surely the bands prior to them of a similar nature would have had just as much a similar impact and would be cited as an influence just as regularly?

i beg you, buy Flowers of Romance next...in fact, gimme ur email address, i'll send you it

[Gigger]

i agree with all of that but theres nothing, in terms of the meat and potatoes of music, that they did that was all that different. synthesisers had been used before, darkness had been mixed with sort of synthey dance before, look at Can...a lot of sort of German electronica. Joy Divisions venture into all that electronicey stuff almost as like a production-pushed thing. cant take nothing away from them and yes, the particular congregation of those facets created a pretty unique sound and it WAS influential (would we have a Morrisey without Curtis?) but you're REALLY REALLY overstating the point..

A "production pushed thing," that's ridiculous Martin Hannett was as much part of Joy Division as Ian Curtis.

Think what you like, but as far as I'm concerned you're underplaying their influence.

And if I'm overstating the point then I am in pretty good company.

Without Curtis, without Tony Wilson and without Martin Hannett, Morrissey wouldn't be the only artist we might not have. Their influence on modern music is enormous. Ask Morrissey or Bono or Robert Smith or Moby or Thom Yorke or Michael Stipe amongst others. And that's pretty good company I'm in already.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Gigger

[ffrankwhite]

i agree with all of that but theres nothing, in terms of the meat and potatoes of music, that they did that was all that different. synthesisers had been used before, darkness had been mixed with sort of synthey dance before, look at Can...a lot of sort of German electronica. Joy Divisions venture into all that electronicey stuff almost as like a production-pushed thing. cant take nothing away from them and yes, the particular congregation of those facets created a pretty unique sound and it WAS influential (would we have a Morrisey without Curtis?) but you're REALLY REALLY overstating the point..

A "production pushed thing," that's ridiculous Martin Hannett was as much part of Joy Division as Ian Curtis.

Think what you like, but as far as I'm concerned you're underplaying their influence.

And if I'm overstating the point then I am in pretty good company.

Without Curtis, without Tony Wilson and without Martin Hannett, Morrissey wouldn't be the only artist we might not have. Their influence on modern music is enormous. Ask Morrissey or Bono or Robert Smith or Moby or Thom Yorke or Michael Stipe amongst others. And that's pretty good company I'm in already.

a production pushed thing meaning it wasnt so much the bands work. i mean check their live stuff...its almost something they stumbled over. but like i said, thats not to take anything away from em.

Ask Morrissey or Bono or Robert Smith or Moby or Thom Yorke or Michael Stipe amongst others

stop it, you're nearly making me dislike Joy Division

[Gigger]

a production pushed thing meaning it wasnt so much the bands work. i mean check their live stuff...its almost something they stumbled over. but like i said, thats not to take anything away from em.

But it was the bands work. It was Martin Hannett's work and he was as much part of Joy Division as anyone. He meticulously crafted their albums. Maybe Hook stumbled upon it but Curtis, Hannett and even Wilson knew what they were doing.

The pre-Unknown Pleasures stuff was more aggressive but it was the sound Hannett created with them which was ground breaking.

[ffrankwhite]

a production pushed thing meaning it wasnt so much the bands work. i mean check their live stuff...its almost something they stumbled over. but like i said, thats not to take anything away from em.

But it was the bands work. It was Martin Hannett's work and he was as much part of Joy Division as anyone. He meticulously crafted their albums. Maybe Hook stumbled upon it but Curtis, Hannett and even Wilson knew what they were doing.

The pre-Unknown Pleasures stuff was more aggressive but it was the sound Hannett created with them which was ground breaking.

im not saying they were like clueless and manipulated but...come on, Martin Hannett was a producer and thats that...he wasnt a member of the band and it was largely him that was responsible for all that stuff. its just a fact, saying that he was as much a part of Joy Division is just not true, he wasnt a member of the band...i do understand what you mean, he was as reponsible for...where their sound was at insofar as he was one of the ingridients...as key as Hook or Sumner or anyone but...come on man, the proofs in the pudding with that one.

[Gigger]

a production pushed thing meaning it wasnt so much the bands work. i mean check their live stuff...its almost something they stumbled over. but like i said, thats not to take anything away from em.

But it was the bands work. It was Martin Hannett's work and he was as much part of Joy Division as anyone. He meticulously crafted their albums. Maybe Hook stumbled upon it but Curtis, Hannett and even Wilson knew what they were doing.

The pre-Unknown Pleasures stuff was more aggressive but it was the sound Hannett created with them which was ground breaking.

im not saying they were like clueless and manipulated but...come on, Martin Hannett was a producer and thats that...he wasnt a member of the band and it was largely him that was responsible for all that stuff. its just a fact, saying that he was as much a part of Joy Division is just not true, he wasnt a member of the band...i do understand what you mean, he was as reponsible for...where their sound was at insofar as he was one of the ingridients...as key as Hook or Sumner or anyone but...come on man, the proofs in the pudding with that one.

Although using wikipedia as a source is hugely questionable i'm gonna be lazy and do it anyway:

"Hannett became most closely associated with Joy Division and had a unique producer/band relationship"

Thing is, he wasn't just a producer when it came to Joy Division, he was as much pat of the band as the others and if you question that then you clearly don't know about the history of Joy Division, Wilson, Hannett and Factory Records (which he was a partner in).

[ffrankwhite]

a production pushed thing meaning it wasnt so much the bands work. i mean check their live stuff...its almost something they stumbled over. but like i said, thats not to take anything away from em.

But it was the bands work. It was Martin Hannett's work and he was as much part of Joy Division as anyone. He meticulously crafted their albums. Maybe Hook stumbled upon it but Curtis, Hannett and even Wilson knew what they were doing.

The pre-Unknown Pleasures stuff was more aggressive but it was the sound Hannett created with them which was ground breaking.

im not saying they were like clueless and manipulated but...come on, Martin Hannett was a producer and thats that...he wasnt a member of the band and it was largely him that was responsible for all that stuff. its just a fact, saying that he was as much a part of Joy Division is just not true, he wasnt a member of the band...i do understand what you mean, he was as reponsible for...where their sound was at insofar as he was one of the ingridients...as key as Hook or Sumner or anyone but...come on man, the proofs in the pudding with that one.

Although using wikipedia as a source is hugely questionable i'm gonna be lazy and do it anyway:

"Hannett became most closely associated with Joy Division and had a unique producer/band relationship"

Thing is, he wasn't just a producer when it came to Joy Division, he was as much pat of the band as the others and if you question that then you clearly don't know about the history of Joy Division, Wilson, Hannett and Factory Records (which he was a partner in).

the reason thats said is cuz his influence on the sound is so pronnounced and obvious that you cant get away from it and that in itself says something. the fact that what is ostensibly a producer, no matter how special their relationship is, should lead the sound of a band in that way REALLY says something about the band...you cant get away from that. they had a special relationship...oh, ok, well great but...still a producer isnt he? not a member of the band was he? wasnt onstage playing was he? i mean that synth element is too huge a part of their sound to be something that was not as a direct result of the line up. point of fact, Joy Division were and always will be Sumner Hook Morris and Curtis. not Sumner Hook Morris Curtis and Hannett.

im lazy too..

"In April 1979, the band began recording their debut album, Unknown Pleasures, at Strawberry Studios in Stockport. Producer Martin Hannett contributed significantly to the final sound. The band initially disliked the "spacious, atmospheric sound" of the album, which did not reflect their more aggressive live sound. Hook said in 2006, "It definitely didn't turn out sounding the way I wanted it.... But now I can see that Martin did a good job on it.... There's no two ways about it, Martin Hannett created the Joy Division sound." "

not my words

[aidlook]

Muse...pick any album

[Gigger]

a production pushed thing meaning it wasnt so much the bands work. i mean check their live stuff...its almost something they stumbled over. but like i said, thats not to take anything away from em.

But it was the bands work. It was Martin Hannett's work and he was as much part of Joy Division as anyone. He meticulously crafted their albums. Maybe Hook stumbled upon it but Curtis, Hannett and even Wilson knew what they were doing.

The pre-Unknown Pleasures stuff was more aggressive but it was the sound Hannett created with them which was ground breaking.

im not saying they were like clueless and manipulated but...come on, Martin Hannett was a producer and thats that...he wasnt a member of the band and it was largely him that was responsible for all that stuff. its just a fact, saying that he was as much a part of Joy Division is just not true, he wasnt a member of the band...i do understand what you mean, he was as reponsible for...where their sound was at insofar as he was one of the ingridients...as key as Hook or Sumner or anyone but...come on man, the proofs in the pudding with that one.

Although using wikipedia as a source is hugely questionable i'm gonna be lazy and do it anyway:

"Hannett became most closely associated with Joy Division and had a unique producer/band relationship"

Thing is, he wasn't just a producer when it came to Joy Division, he was as much pat of the band as the others and if you question that then you clearly don't know about the history of Joy Division, Wilson, Hannett and Factory Records (which he was a partner in).

the reason thats said is cuz his influence on the sound is so pronnounced and obvious that you cant get away from it and that in itself says something. the fact that what is ostensibly a producer, no matter how special their relationship is, should lead the sound of a band in that way REALLY says something about the band...you cant get away from that. they had a special relationship...oh, ok, well great but...still a producer isnt he? not a member of the band was he? wasnt onstage playing was he? i mean that synth element is too huge a part of their sound to be something that was not as a direct result of the line up. point of fact, Joy Division were and always will be Sumner Hook Morris and Curtis. not Sumner Hook Morris Curtis and Hannett.

im lazy too..

"In April 1979, the band began recording their debut album, Unknown Pleasures, at Strawberry Studios in Stockport. Producer Martin Hannett contributed significantly to the final sound. The band initially disliked the "spacious, atmospheric sound" of the album, which did not reflect their more aggressive live sound. Hook said in 2006, "It definitely didn't turn out sounding the way I wanted it.... But now I can see that Martin did a good job on it.... There's no two ways about it, Martin Hannett created the Joy Division sound." "

not my words

No they are Hook's. Not Curtis'. Or Wilson's, or Hannett's for that matter.

Go read up on Tony Wilson, Factory Records and the history of Joy Division in relation to those two - they are all inextricably linked. Until then you simply won't get it.

And I ain't explaining it to you anymore.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Gigger

[sweetness]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1u489DqbMQ

listen to the sounds of ground being broken

"turn off your mind, relax and float down stream"

yeeeaaahh, tell em bout it Johnny but please, dont hurt em :xmasssanta:

But is any of that "groundbreaking" music very entertaining?

i don't think so, even if its more creative and origional than lets just say appetite for destruction, it really doesnt climb inside of me quite the same way. just leaves me with the thought "well that was different" with no true desire to really go back to it.

each to his own brother, you got some pretty cool taste but GODDAAAMMNN!! i cant possibly tell you how that shit turns me on...yyeeeaahh, man, more of it...its exciting, i lap it up...its like WOAH...what the fuck was that?!?! opens my eyes...i want my music to be far out and freaky...like Electricladyland, like Second Edition - PiL, like some shit that makes me lose my mind (literally). Or explore its depth/breadth.

i know what you mean though, y'gotta have that spark up the ass that makes you move...like Jerry Lee Lewis or The Stones doin Rip This Joint but...i dunno man, i just want just plain fucking WEIRD shit..

haha alright man fair enough, i see what youre sayin

theres definetly music that blows my mind that i know most people cant really get into, thats new, fresh, and interesting

maybe when it comes to breaking musical ground it would make more sense to compare it to how the majority recieves it?

otherwise its broken way more often than anybody can imagine

[ffrankwhite]

a production pushed thing meaning it wasnt so much the bands work. i mean check their live stuff...its almost something they stumbled over. but like i said, thats not to take anything away from em.

But it was the bands work. It was Martin Hannett's work and he was as much part of Joy Division as anyone. He meticulously crafted their albums. Maybe Hook stumbled upon it but Curtis, Hannett and even Wilson knew what they were doing.

The pre-Unknown Pleasures stuff was more aggressive but it was the sound Hannett created with them which was ground breaking.

im not saying they were like clueless and manipulated but...come on, Martin Hannett was a producer and thats that...he wasnt a member of the band and it was largely him that was responsible for all that stuff. its just a fact, saying that he was as much a part of Joy Division is just not true, he wasnt a member of the band...i do understand what you mean, he was as reponsible for...where their sound was at insofar as he was one of the ingridients...as key as Hook or Sumner or anyone but...come on man, the proofs in the pudding with that one.

Although using wikipedia as a source is hugely questionable i'm gonna be lazy and do it anyway:

"Hannett became most closely associated with Joy Division and had a unique producer/band relationship"

Thing is, he wasn't just a producer when it came to Joy Division, he was as much pat of the band as the others and if you question that then you clearly don't know about the history of Joy Division, Wilson, Hannett and Factory Records (which he was a partner in).

the reason thats said is cuz his influence on the sound is so pronnounced and obvious that you cant get away from it and that in itself says something. the fact that what is ostensibly a producer, no matter how special their relationship is, should lead the sound of a band in that way REALLY says something about the band...you cant get away from that. they had a special relationship...oh, ok, well great but...still a producer isnt he? not a member of the band was he? wasnt onstage playing was he? i mean that synth element is too huge a part of their sound to be something that was not as a direct result of the line up. point of fact, Joy Division were and always will be Sumner Hook Morris and Curtis. not Sumner Hook Morris Curtis and Hannett.

im lazy too..

"In April 1979, the band began recording their debut album, Unknown Pleasures, at Strawberry Studios in Stockport. Producer Martin Hannett contributed significantly to the final sound. The band initially disliked the "spacious, atmospheric sound" of the album, which did not reflect their more aggressive live sound. Hook said in 2006, "It definitely didn't turn out sounding the way I wanted it.... But now I can see that Martin did a good job on it.... There's no two ways about it, Martin Hannett created the Joy Division sound." "

not my words

No they are Hook's. Not Curtis'. Or Wilson's, or Hannett's for that matter.

Go read up on Tony Wilson, Factory Records and the history of Joy Division in relation to those two - they are all inextricably linked. Until then you simply won't get it.

And I ain't explaining it to you anymore.

cuz you cant. i really dont see your problem, i've said umpteen times that its not taking anything away from the band but you seem stuck on this sort of revisionist thinking where Joy Division were like...Messiahs ushering in a new breed or something, things are never that neat man, its just not real. Thats not to say theres not a great degree of truth in it but c'mon man, dont kid yourself. i dont need to read up on factory and Tony the Lonely, i already have. you just cant seem to get over or around the fact that when a producer is THAT instrumental in how a band sounds it doesnt make him a fucking member, it just means that it werent all the bands work. theres nothing wrong with that, producers are artists too and they are part of the creative process but that does not mean that they are somehow the missing member, thats just your mind trying to make Joy Division out to be bigger geniuses than they were...its simply not the truth of it. im a great admirer and fan of Joy Division but that doesnt mean i'm gonna delude myself. lifes too short and the truth is always more interesting.

maybe when it comes to breaking musical ground it would make more sense to compare it to how the majority recieves it?

otherwise its broken way more often than anybody can imagine

never thought of it like that. thats very interesting...makes a lot of sense actually

[ffrankwhite]

According to Hannett: "There was a lot of space in their sound. They were a gift to a producer, because they didn't have a clue. They didn't argue. The Factory Sampler was the first thing I did with them. I think I'd had the new AMS delay line for about two weeks. It was called 'Digital'. It was heaven sent."

theres another quote for ya...evidently not just Hookys opinion..

[SunnyDRE]

I don't want to get into this debate.

Just want to say, I always thought Joy Division was a Metal band who knew how to write pop songs. Similiar to the band Unwound, if you guys have ever heard of them.

[ffrankwhite]

I don't want to get into this debate.

Just want to say, I always thought Joy Division was a Metal band who knew how to write pop songs. Similiar to the band Unwound, if you guys have ever heard of them.

i always thought of Joy Division as a band, like many other punk bands of their era, had this glorious thing to their credit where...because they were so green, they were original cuz, like Siouxsie Sioux once said "we couldnt sound like anybody else if we tried". thats part of what was so cool about punk early on, or certain areas of it, these people like...finding their instrument...so original and beautiful the way it came out. it was the opposite of academia..and heres me intellectualising it...missing the point while finding it

Edited July 14, 2008 by ffrankwhite

[Gigger]

According to Hannett: "There was a lot of space in their sound. They were a gift to a producer, because they didn't have a clue. They didn't argue. The Factory Sampler was the first thing I did with them. I think I'd had the new AMS delay line for about two weeks. It was called 'Digital'. It was heaven sent."

theres another quote for ya...evidently not just Hookys opinion..

Here's another Hannett quote for you:

"Touched by the hand of God"

Guess who he said that about.

The thing with Joy Division is that their impact was almost instant... Go listen to A Day Without Me - U2's first ever single which was released less than six months after Curtis' death. Guess who that was about?

Hannett played a major part, obviously. But he was there when Joy Division started (not Warsaw but Joy Division). As was Wilson, and he played a massive part too. Between the band, Wilson and Hannett they launched Factory Records. The three entities are inextricably linked and as such they are as much part of the story as each other.

I didn't say they were Messiah's. I said that in 79 and 80 they blew people's mind and as far as I'm concerned, they were the last truly groundbreaking band. The rest of it you just put in my mouth.

For me, nothing has sounded like Closer, before or since.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Gigger

[SunnyDRE]

I don't want to get into this debate.

Just want to say, I always thought Joy Division was a Metal band who knew how to write pop songs. Similiar to the band Unwound, if you guys have ever heard of them.

i always thought of Joy Division as a band, like many other punk bands of their era, had this glorious thing to their credit where...because they were so green, they were original cuz, like Siouxsie Sioux once said "we couldnt sound like anybody else if we tried". thats part of what was so cool about punk early on, or certain areas of it, these people like...finding their instrument...so original and beautiful the way it came out. it was the opposite of academia..and heres me intellectualising it...missing the point while finding it

Joy Division was definitely not punk frank, in fact (I know you hate to hear this) but they're sound is closer to emo than punk.

Hey, that is JMO.

I'd love to here what Zint has to say about Joy Division, cause I own all their albums and I never heard or felt a "punk sense", more of a "self-loathing" emo type of music.

Edited July 14, 2008 by SunnyDRE

[Gigger]

I don't want to get into this debate.

Just want to say, I always thought Joy Division was a Metal band who knew how to write pop songs. Similiar to the band Unwound, if you guys have ever heard of them.

i always thought of Joy Division as a band, like many other punk bands of their era, had this glorious thing to their credit where...because they were so green, they were original cuz, like Siouxsie Sioux once said "we couldnt sound like anybody else if we tried". thats part of what was so cool about punk early on, or certain areas of it, these people like...finding their instrument...so original and beautiful the way it came out. it was the opposite of academia..and heres me intellectualising it...missing the point while finding it

Joy Division was definitely not punk frank, in fact (I know you hate to hear this) but they're sound is closer to emo than punk.

Joy Division were most definitely a post-punk band. Though they certainly influenced emo. Although as I've already said, they influenced a whole lot of stuff.

[SunnyDRE]

I don't want to get into this debate.

Just want to say, I always thought Joy Division was a Metal band who knew how to write pop songs. Similiar to the band Unwound, if you guys have ever heard of them.

i always thought of Joy Division as a band, like many other punk bands of their era, had this glorious thing to their credit where...because they were so green, they were original cuz, like Siouxsie Sioux once said "we couldnt sound like anybody else if we tried". thats part of what was so cool about punk early on, or certain areas of it, these people like...finding their instrument...so original and beautiful the way it came out. it was the opposite of academia..and heres me intellectualising it...missing the point while finding it

Joy Division was definitely not punk frank, in fact (I know you hate to hear this) but they're sound is closer to emo than punk.

Joy Division were most definitely a post-punk band. Though they certainly influenced emo. Although as I've already said, they influenced a whole lot of stuff.

Post-Punk = After punk.

Joy Divison was one of the first emo bands, if not the first. U2 the second......U2 just used different themes.

Edited July 14, 2008 by SunnyDRE

[ffrankwhite]

According to Hannett: "There was a lot of space in their sound. They were a gift to a producer, because they didn't have a clue. They didn't argue. The Factory Sampler was the first thing I did with them. I think I'd had the new AMS delay line for about two weeks. It was called 'Digital'. It was heaven sent."

theres another quote for ya...evidently not just Hookys opinion..

Here's another Hannett quote for you:

"Touched by the hand of God"

Guess who he said that about.

The thing with Joy Division is that their impact was almost instant... Go listen to A Day Without Me - U2's first ever single which was released less than six months after Curtis' death. Guess who that was about?

Hannett played a major part, obviously. But he was there when Joy Division started (not Warsaw but Joy Division). As was Wilson, and he played a massive part too. Between the band, Wilson and Hannett they launched Factory Records. The three entities are inextricably linked and as such they are as much part of the story as each other.

I didn't say they were Messiah's. I said that in 79 and 80 they blew people's mind and as far as I'm concerned, they were the last truly groundbreaking band. The rest of it you just put in my mouth.

For me, nothing has sounded like Closer, before or since.

now you're just ignoring my points

Joy Division was definitely not punk frank, in fact (I know you hate to hear this) but they're sound is closer to emo than punk.

Hey, that is JMO.

founded off the back of the sex pistols playing at the lesser free trade hall in Manchester...yeah, im sorry but they were a punk band...or post punk. why would i hate to hear that their sound is closer to emo? the fact that it isnt at all not withstanding...its not really about opinions at this point, its sort of a fact...they were one of a whole crop of punk bands that came out of the Manchester scene off the back of my favoritest band in the whole universe (Sex Pistols...probably Beatles too)

They were most definitely punk. what you gotta understand is that punk isnt...really something identifiable by sound...it just doesnt work that way. its an attitude, its a spirit, the spirit of invention and authenticity. in fact, like Glenn Matlock once said "the more something sounds like carbon copy punk the less punk it usually is". its not defineable by sound. i mean just look at the bands from the early punk rock scene like Television or Richard Hell and The Voidoids or Johnny Thunders and The Heartbreakers or The Slits or The Adverts...these bands had very little in common sonically...and even further into like...The No Wave Scene and then Hardcore and even Emo (which is a sub-genre of punk so its really kinda odd that you say they dont sound like punk to you but more like Emo) i mean i dont pretend to know anything about Emo so im not sure where the presumption that i dont or wouldn't like em comes from.

Post Punk is a term applied to bands like Joy Division and PiL who came after the first wave of punk rock bands and took it in a more artsier direction...it doesnt mean "music that came after punk" it refers to where the sound or what the sound of punk evolved into. Its known as art punk too. the first Emo band?? no, im sorry, but you're just wrong there...Emo was like an offshoot of Hardcore and thats an 80s thing...you're getting your chronology skewed here bro.

Edited July 14, 2008 by ffrankwhite

[Gigger]

I don't want to get into this debate.

Just want to say, I always thought Joy Division was a Metal band who knew how to write pop songs. Similiar to the band Unwound, if you guys have ever heard of them.

i always thought of Joy Division as a band, like many other punk bands of their era, had this glorious thing to their credit where...because they were so green, they were original cuz, like Siouxsie Sioux once said "we couldnt sound like anybody else if we tried". thats part of what was so cool about punk early on, or certain areas of it, these people like...finding their instrument...so original and beautiful the way it came out. it was the opposite of academia..and heres me intellectualising it...missing the point while finding it

Joy Division was definitely not punk frank, in fact (I know you hate to hear this) but they're sound is closer to emo than punk.

Joy Division were most definitely a post-punk band. Though they certainly influenced emo. Although as I've already said, they influenced a whole lot of stuff.

Post-Punk = After punk.

Thanks for explaining that.

Joy Divison was one of the first emo bands, if not the first. U2 the second......U2 just used different themes.

Neither of them were emo bands. But both have elements of what we know define as emo in them. Joy Division certainly. They undoubtedly had massive influence on the emo which emerged in the 90s.

[SunnyDRE]

I don't want to get into this debate.

Just want to say, I always thought Joy Division was a Metal band who knew how to write pop songs. Similiar to the band Unwound, if you guys have ever heard of them.

i always thought of Joy Division as a band, like many other punk bands of their era, had this glorious thing to their credit where...because they were so green, they were original cuz, like Siouxsie Sioux once said "we couldnt sound like anybody else if we tried". thats part of what was so cool about punk early on, or certain areas of it, these people like...finding their instrument...so original and beautiful the way it came out. it was the opposite of academia..and heres me intellectualising it...missing the point while finding it

Joy Division was definitely not punk frank, in fact (I know you hate to hear this) but they're sound is closer to emo than punk.

Joy Division were most definitely a post-punk band. Though they certainly influenced emo. Although as I've already said, they influenced a whole lot of stuff.

Post-Punk = After punk.

Thanks for explaining that.

Joy Divison was one of the first emo bands, if not the first. U2 the second......U2 just used different themes.

Neither of them were emo bands. But both have elements of what we know define as emo in them. Joy Division certainly. They undoubtedly had massive influence on the emo which emerged in the 90s.

So what are the end all when it comes to music. The final word?

haha

Edited July 14, 2008 by SunnyDRE

[Gigger]

According to Hannett: "There was a lot of space in their sound. They were a gift to a producer, because they didn't have a clue. They didn't argue. The Factory Sampler was the first thing I did with them. I think I'd had the new AMS delay line for about two weeks. It was called 'Digital'. It was heaven sent."

theres another quote for ya...evidently not just Hookys opinion..

Here's another Hannett quote for you:

"Touched by the hand of God"

Guess who he said that about.

The thing with Joy Division is that their impact was almost instant... Go listen to A Day Without Me - U2's first ever single which was released less than six months after Curtis' death. Guess who that was about?

Hannett played a major part, obviously. But he was there when Joy Division started (not Warsaw but Joy Division). As was Wilson, and he played a massive part too. Between the band, Wilson and Hannett they launched Factory Records. The three entities are inextricably linked and as such they are as much part of the story as each other.

I didn't say they were Messiah's. I said that in 79 and 80 they blew people's mind and as far as I'm concerned, they were the last truly groundbreaking band. The rest of it you just put in my mouth.

For me, nothing has sounded like Closer, before or since.

now you're just ignoring my points

Not at all. I've put it bold for you so it's easier to locate.

Your point was that Hannett developed the sound, mine is that Hannett plays as much of a part in the Joy Division story as anyone else. It was a creative process and the result - Joy Division had huge influence on what came after it. But Hannett's quote about Curtis would suggest that he thought pretty highly of him.

The rest of my post was just addressing the various words you had put in my mouth.

As I said in my last post: For me, nothing has sounded like Closer, before or since.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Gigger

[ffrankwhite]

Your point was that Hannett developed the sound, mine is that Hannett plays as much of a part in the Joy Division story as anyone else. It was a creative process and the result - Joy Division had huge influence on what came after it.

exactly, which basically goes back to my original post about them "stumbling" (for want of a better word) over the whole synth thing, it wasnt a part of their sound until Hannett made it so...thats all my point ever was, yes he played a HUGE part in the Joy Division story, thats what im sayin here...and my insinuation that they stumbled on it is further compounded by the Hannett quote i offered:

There was a lot of space in their sound. They were a gift to a producer, because they didn't have a clue. They didn't argue. The Factory Sampler was the first thing I did with them. I think I'd had the new AMS delay line for about two weeks. It was called 'Digital'. It was heaven sent

i never meant to give the impression that Hannett thought any of them were idiots, just that he was ostensibly a producer, however much he was linked to the inception of Factory and the whole Joy Division thing, he's still just a producer, a producer that informed their sound to the degree that he made it what it was, this really special thing that it was...which goes back to my original point about them and whether or not they were musically groundbreaking as a band, they were but the groundbreaking aspect was largely due to the producer not something that they were or even something that they concieved as a band.

Im not saying they were shit and he was the svengali puppetmaster that invented them but the fact remains, his contribution is what differentiated them from just being y'know...a good band to a great band. his input in their legacy is immeasurable. so its one of those things y'know, as a band unto themselves...they werent that, they werent what you hear on Closer and Unknown Pleasures.

Edited July 14, 2008 by ffrankwhite

[Gigger]

Your point was that Hannett developed the sound, mine is that Hannett plays as much of a part in the Joy Division story as anyone else. It was a creative process and the result - Joy Division had huge influence on what came after it.

exactly, which basically goes back to my original post about them "stumbling" (for want of a better word) over the whole synth thing, it wasnt a part of their sound until Hannett made it so...thats all my point ever was, yes he played a HUGE part in the Joy Division story, thats what im sayin here...and my insinuation that they stumbled on it is further compounded by the Hannett quote i offered:

There was a lot of space in their sound. They were a gift to a producer, because they didn't have a clue. They didn't argue. The Factory Sampler was the first thing I did with them. I think I'd had the new AMS delay line for about two weeks. It was called 'Digital'. It was heaven sent

Yes but stumbling suggests it was an accident. It wasn't. The collaboration between Hannett and Joy Division may have seemed an unnatural one but Hannett himself, Wilson and also Curtis knew what was happening. Wilson recalls Hannett using AMS delay line on day one with Joy Division, which would suggest that this was known when the collaboration began bearing in mind that Wilson and Hannett were close friends.

"The first time he ever worked with that Digital delay machine was on the song Digital. And that was on the Factory Sample, his first day with Joy Division. And then of course he used it on Unknown Pleasures and it changed the way drums sound forever, he used it on ESG and everything else. So the first thing is he changed the drum sound of the world forever by the Digital Delay."

Hannett's story and Joy Division are inextricably linked and therefore he is as much part of the Joy Division story as anyone else. His work with Joy Division as much as Curtis' influenced what followed.

Curtis himself was undoubtedly a genius imo. Lyrically and in terms of delivery if nothing else. Plus his stage performance was a sight to behold.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Gigger

[stevGNR666]

Deloused in the Comotorium.