Old GNR Would Have Gotten Boring

[Naupis]

Regardless of what you think of Axl, he hasn't sucked corporate dick the way Slash has for years. He makes and releases music on his own terms completely. That's dignity.

If I am not mistaken, Slash, not Axl, is the only one of the 2 of them that believed in his own material enough to finance his own project rather than suck on and beg at the teet of the record companies so that he could release the album he wanted, how he wanted it released.

He also didn't pout, whine and complain that no one would give him a marketing budget like someone else we know. Instead, he was proud of the album and got out there and pounded the pavement to show it to the world. That is why it is easily one of the most successful independent releases of the year.

When an artist is proud of an album they work hard on, they go out and promote it rather than sitting at home moping thinking about who to sue because you're pissed they wouldn't give you the budget you wanted to promote it.

Now tell me who is really the one releasing music on their own terms?

The one who is a slave to his recording contract and willingly bent over and took it up the ass from his record label about how they wanted the release of the album handled. Or the guy who believed in his project enough to pay for it himself, go through the hassle of negotiating with a shithouse full of record labels to get the artists he wanted, and hustle his ass off to do create every opportunity he could to promote the album even though he had no label muscle helping him?

One of those 2 is the record label's bitch, and it isn't Slash.

So much for the "making and releasing music on his own terms" argument as it is completely bogus.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Naupis

[HB3]

And he doesn't give in to what the media and so-called "fans" want him to do.

releasing music more often? Is that such an impossible ask?

I was mainly referring to a reunion. And Chinese Democracy wasn't even released two years ago. Plus, GN'R are touring right now. Give them a break. Right now their focus is on wowing fans across the globe in their live performances.

And I would much rather have quality songs over quantity. So I'm sorry if the band can't release a new album every year for you. Do you even like current Guns?

[Mastodonny]

Axl and dignity used together in a sentence? That's a first. The dude has been a constant punchline for years now. Is that how you define dignity?

I know that this is bait and that you're a hardcore Slash cockrider/Axl hater but I'll bite anyway...

Regardless of what you think of Axl, he hasn't sucked corporate dick the way Slash has for years. He makes and releases music on his own terms completely. That's dignity. Something Saul and Duff wouldn't know much about.

Axl must have been sucking off someone to get 13 million for a lackluster album. Dignity is more than "doing what you want". Calling people names online is not what one would define as a dignified act.

[Axl Knows]

Axl must have been sucking off someone to get 13 million for a lackluster album. Dignity is more than "doing what you want". Calling people names online is not what one would define as a dignified act.

The only sucky-sucky going on here is you on Slash's 3 incher....

Dignity is not making concessions to please the population at large or for the sake of your image. Axl says what he thinks and feels. Most entertainers would NOT have the guts to do or say the things that Axl has. You may consider him an asshole but the fact that he won't stop being one because people like you think he should is a testament to the fact that he has dignity.

Man, people like you make me sick. You expect entertainers to be exactly what you think they should be instead of individuals. Get off your high horse.

[Nintari]

Not surprisingly this has turned into the typical Axl vs. Slash thread...............but have to say it is like a bad car accident you don't want to look but can overcome the curiosity

I knew where this stupid shit was headed the moment I read the title.

[Mastodonny]

Axl must have been sucking off someone to get 13 million for a lackluster album. Dignity is more than "doing what you want". Calling people names online is not what one would define as a dignified act.

The only sucky-sucky going on here is you on Slash's 3 incher....

Dignity is not making concessions to please the population at large or for the sake of your image. Axl says what he thinks and feels. Most entertainers would NOT have the guts to do or say the things that Axl has. You may consider him an asshole but the fact that he won't stop being one because people like you think he should is a testament to the fact that he has dignity.

Man, people like you make me sick. You expect entertainers to be exactly what you think they should be instead of individuals. Get off your high horse.

I think you are confusing dignity and narcissism.

[HB3]

And it seems like people have lost interest already.

[loved2deth]

I agree, it would have compared to what it was. At best they would be like Metallica is now or possibly something like Aerosmith or maybe even like Led Zeppelin-legendary.

At worst, assuming things kept going in that excessive direction, they could have ended up like Bon Jovi.

I had a thread talking about that. I believe an average album in 94-97 would have done far worse than what doing nothing did. If Slash's album is any indication (5 o clock somewhere) and really what that album would have sounded like, the decline would have been rapid.

Now the public is hungry for RnR again apparently if that piece of shit Slash released is any indication.

Axl is respected by me because he has to make things perfect, things worth listening to in line with his vision and standards. Just making albums to buy yet another mansion or finance some bullshit lifestyle doesn't seem to be on his priority list. I love that about him, and I think every true fan feels the same.

On the flip side, Axl could make any song sound unique and good to people that like his style, so who knows.

Edited July 15, 2010 by loved2deth

[Kickingthehabit]

I don't buy the argument that Slash isn't a good songwriter. Do people really think Axl wouldn't sound good on Slither, Fall to Pieces, Starlight, Watch This, Serial Killer, Back and Forth Again, or Saint Is A Sinner? He certainly hasn't released a definitive album on his own, but there's a lot of interesting stuff in his solo catalogue. The notion that Axl needed to leave Slash behind is kind of silly when Chinese Democracy has duds like the title track, IRS and Scraped. Compared to the songs Axl and Slash have composed together; songs in which they literally reached Zeppelin-esque heights, there's really nothing on Chinese Democracy that compares. Even Axl said in the mid-to-late 90s they had incredible demos for the new record, so it's ridiculous to say they broke up over artistic differences. Their relationship ended because they didn't like each other anymore. Axl's freak-out-and-destroy-everything-attitude could not coexist with Slash's passive aggressiveness. And when you have as much money as they do, is it necessary to put up with someone's bullshit? No. They stopped talking, expecting the other to come crawling back, and the silence dragged on for years until there was no relationship left to repair..

-Kickingthehabit

[loved2deth]

I don't buy the argument that Slash isn't a good songwriter. Do people really think Axl wouldn't sound good on Slither, Fall to Pieces, Starlight, Watch This, Serial Killer, Back and Forth Again, or Saint Is A Sinner? He certainly hasn't released a definitive album on his own, but there's a lot of interesting stuff in his solo catalogue. The notion that Axl needed to leave Slash behind is kind of silly when Chinese Democracy has duds like the title track, IRS and Scraped. Compared to the songs Axl and Slash have composed together; songs in which they literally reached Zeppelin-esque heights, there's really nothing on Chinese Democracy that compares. Even Axl said in the mid-to-late 90s they had incredible demos for the new record, so it's ridiculous to say they broke up over artistic differences. Their relationship ended because they didn't like each other anymore. Axl's freak-out-and-destroy-everything-attitude could not coexist with Slash's passive aggressiveness. And when you have as much money as they do, is it necessary to put up with someone's bullshit? No. They stopped talking, expecting the other to come crawling back, and the silence dragged on for years until there was no relationship left to repair..

-Kickingthehabit

Chinese Democracy was killed from leaks and horrible advertising combined with people expecting the best material ever written and so on from all the bullshit said and written about over the years.

Slash had a gigantic push for VR with literally everyone pushing them, and they did not come near what GnR did.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but really, listen to the songs Slash makes on his own. It is like Axl pushed and pushed him, and he sounds like instead of being innovative he is a generic rock guitarist now. I seriously doubt Slash would have been famous outside of maybe a somewhat famous 80's hair metal band without Axl there to organize it all.

I realize that sales wise CD was crushed by Contraband, but consider the massive difference between the two situations.

[Lines&Noses]

But you have to admit, it's lots of fun to serve him his ass on a silver platter and laugh at his pathetic attempts to talk back.

That's funny considering I owned your easy-to-wind-up ass a minute ago... Note to Allen8R, if you're going to question someone's education, check your spelling first. And if you're going to criticise someone for being cliched, make sure you don't then come out with the generic "mom's basement" comments...

Fact is its true, though you are either ignoring or too dumb to realise.

People come back with reasoned arguemets and you just ignore them to keep your little tirade going.

Its fine to like the new band its A OK to prefer them but why do you always have to have a pop at the old band and Slash in particular?

Say what ever else you want the nu band currently are out there playing songs written by the same guys you criticise? If you really hate Slash, Izzy rtc why go to a concert with cramed full of songs by these guys?

Edited July 15, 2010 by Lines&Noses

[Ed Vega]

I seriously doubt Slash would have been famous outside of maybe a somewhat famous 80's hair metal band without Axl there to organize it all.

Wow. Some of you people are crazy.

We've seen what Guns is like with Axl in full control. An anti-publicity machine. Do you really think anyone would have ever heard of Guns N' Roses if Axl had been the dicatator that he is now back in the '80s?

[Lines&Noses]

I don't buy the argument that Slash isn't a good songwriter. Do people really think Axl wouldn't sound good on Slither, Fall to Pieces, Starlight, Watch This, Serial Killer, Back and Forth Again, or Saint Is A Sinner? He certainly hasn't released a definitive album on his own, but there's a lot of interesting stuff in his solo catalogue. The notion that Axl needed to leave Slash behind is kind of silly when Chinese Democracy has duds like the title track, IRS and Scraped. Compared to the songs Axl and Slash have composed together; songs in which they literally reached Zeppelin-esque heights, there's really nothing on Chinese Democracy that compares. Even Axl said in the mid-to-late 90s they had incredible demos for the new record, so it's ridiculous to say they broke up over artistic differences. Their relationship ended because they didn't like each other anymore. Axl's freak-out-and-destroy-everything-attitude could not coexist with Slash's passive aggressiveness. And when you have as much money as they do, is it necessary to put up with someone's bullshit? No. They stopped talking, expecting the other to come crawling back, and the silence dragged on for years until there was no relationship left to repair..

-Kickingthehabit

Chinese Democracy was killed from leaks and horrible advertising combined with people expecting the best material ever written and so on from all the bullshit said and written about over the years.

Slash had a gigantic push for VR with literally everyone pushing them, and they did not come near what GnR did.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but really, listen to the songs Slash makes on his own. It is like Axl pushed and pushed him, and he sounds like instead of being innovative he is a generic rock guitarist now. I seriously doubt Slash would have been famous outside of maybe a somewhat famous 80's hair metal band without Axl there to organize it all.

I realize that sales wise CD was crushed by Contraband, but consider the massive difference between the two situations.

I don;t know where you are in the world but in the UK Chi Dem got pushed andpushed hard. They had television adverts, posters on public transport and full page adverts in newspapers. If anything the push for Chi Dem was bigger the Contraband?

The differnce was the VR boys got out there and helped push their record. I'm not even saying I think Contraband was better on balance I think Chi Dem shades it., but to say Chi Dem got no push just is not true at least not in the UK.

[Axl Knows]

Fact is its true, though you are either ignoring or too dumb to realise.

People come back with reasoned arguemets and you just ignore them to keep your little tirade going.

Its fine to like the new band its A OK to prefer them but why do you always have to have a pop at the old band and Slash in particular?

Say what ever else you want the nu band currently are out there playing songs written by the same guys you criticise? If you really hate Slash, Izzy rtc why go to a concert with cramed full of songs by these guys?

I've eliminated all of their arguments one by one.

I don't hate the old band. I've already stated before that I prefer the old lineup. I'm just a realist. They were losing their creativity and chemistry, Izzy, Duff and Slash were losing their drive and passion for songwriting and it just wasn't working. The second half of the UYI tour had Axl giving it his all while the rest of band went through the motions unenthusiastically. Axl should have fired them before they had a chance to quit.

[Lines&Noses]

Fact is its true, though you are either ignoring or too dumb to realise.

People come back with reasoned arguemets and you just ignore them to keep your little tirade going.

Its fine to like the new band its A OK to prefer them but why do you always have to have a pop at the old band and Slash in particular?

Say what ever else you want the nu band currently are out there playing songs written by the same guys you criticise? If you really hate Slash, Izzy rtc why go to a concert with cramed full of songs by these guys?

I've eliminated all of their arguments one by one. Where?

I don't hate the old band. I've already stated before that I prefer the old lineup. I'm just a realist. They were losing their creativity and chemistry, Izzy, Duff and Slash were losing their drive and passion for songwriting and it just wasn't working. The second half of the UYI tour had Axl giving it his all while the rest of band went through the motions unenthusiastically. Axl should have fired them before they had a chance to quit.

Not true the UYI albums show the band under strain because the band and Axl were pulling in different directions. Like I said Axl even thanks Slash for the killer riff on Estranged hardly a sign that he thinks he's past it?

How do you back your argument up. Going by your theses Axl has had pretty much 15 years "enencumbered" by his old band mates. But what has he produced? 4 good songs and 10 average to ropey ones?

Even if you put the arguments over the music to one side he has hardly been productive? He has not even held the line up together? There has been more line up changed than tourss, infact almost more line up changes than songs??

It seems obvious that none of the original line up have come even remotely close to achieving what they did when they were together, I just hopw that one da they can put theor differences aside and reunite.

[Naupis]

I realize that sales wise CD was crushed by Contraband, but consider the massive difference between the two situations.

You're right.

One had the Guns N' Roses brand name and the other was a brand new name with no market awareness.

It really was an unfair fight I guess.

By the logic that just having members from famous bands guarantees sales, shouldn't Them Crooked Vultures be the biggest rock band out there right now considering the bands their members represent?

Fact is that Contraband was a kick ass album and was successful because the music was there. It was music the public wanted to hear. Slither (Grammy for Rock Song of the Year) and Fall to Pieces spent forever at #1 on the rock charts because they were good songs. The album sold well and received critical acclaim (higher than CD on metacritic) because it was a great album.

They had their own sound, instead of looking around and trying to copy what was popular at the time they recorded it.

People shit on CD because we already have bands they wanted to hear an album that sounded like GNR. If they wanted to listen to Korn or NIN style metal/industrial stuff they would listen to those bands.

GNR was a band that pushed/developed their own sound without regard to what was in, not a band that looked around and tried to copy what everyone else was doing to try and seem relevant. That philosophy was clearly lost by Axl in the late 90's.

If the 90's Axl were fronting the 80's GNR, we would have gotten a cock rock album instead of Appetite because that's what everyone was doing at the time. Lucky for us though he waited until later in his career to decide to become a follower instead of a leader because we were graced with Appetite and the Illusions.

[WilliamBruceBailey]

What he said. Plus Axl would have never let the band become "boring", or "irrelevant". They would have been a combination of U2's constant innovation with the Stones edge. They would have a beautifully produced website, have been more fan friendly, and put out music more consistently because they would have an excellent management team in place. No one hear can say for a minute they wouldn't trade the path that a band like Metallica took for the one that Guns n Roses took. That being said, I love the new band, I love chinese democracy, and I will support whatever Axl does. But don't think I wouldn't trade all of it for Guns having stayed together and became the Rolling Stones of Gen X.

U2 were constantly innovative? Don't make me laugh. U2 were one of those bands like Queen who were garbage after their first four/five albums and continued to mail it in for the extra dough.

I'd rather Axl maintain some dignity than become another Bono or Mercury, who put shit on record knowing that the brainwashed public will lap it up.

Are you retarded?? Seriously??? U2's first 4 albums Boy, October, War, The Unforgettable Fire all solid. The Joshua Tree which was their 5TH album was when they finally made a true masterpiece. Then they went a completely different direction sound and style wise with achtung baby, another masterpiece. They changed the way stadium shows were set up and performed with visual displays and media. Then they made two so so albums with zooropa and pop. Then they come back full circle with All you can't leave behind, and how to dismantle an atomic bomb, then just last year they put out another album that had a completely unique sound and style No line on the horizon. All of which sold well and were critically acclaimed. All the while changing the landscape of the audience experience of arena and stadium shows. And again do you honestly think that had the original incarnation of GNR stayed together that Axl would have put out crap? Perfectionism is a mental disorder that does not go away because someone becomes successful. I honestly believe had the original GNR not imploded, and had no one died from drugs or alcohol, GNR would already be in the pantheon of bands along with the Stones, Beatles, Led Zep, U2 ect.....Hell they came close just with what they did between 87-93.

Edited July 15, 2010 by WilliamBruceBailey

[Kickingthehabit]

Chinese Democracy was killed from leaks and horrible advertising combined with people expecting the best material ever written and so on from all the bullshit said and written about over the years.

Do you honestly believe the millions of people who truly enjoyed Better and IRS simply decided to not buy the album? That somehow they absolutely loved what they heard but decided it wasn't worth going to the store to purchase? Of course not, because most people did not like the leaks. Granted, a few critics happily discussed them with positive feedback, but it didn't interest the greater public. Axl had also been touring the leaked material for nearly a decade before Chinese Democracy was actually released. Where were the record breaking 8 million people who listened to the album on Myspace courtesy the band? Why didn't they go to the store? If the public had been genuinely impressed by the material, it would have created more intrigue. There were no hits, nothing for the greater public to identify with, so the album failed commercially..

You cannot sensibly blame "expectations" for any record's failure. Axl chose to continue using the Guns N' Roses name. Naturally, there's going to be expectations. Were people at fault for having expectations with the Illusion records? Almost every critic at the time said they weren't as good as Appetite for Destruction. Yet they sold a combined 14 million copies. Why? Because it had hit singles and an audience that identified with the material. This is a strawman argument at best, because we're talking about an established band. Any band with an audience is going to have expectations from their audience. Bruce Springsteen isn't just going to release an album without his fans anticipating the very best. He either delivers, or he doesn't. That's how it works..

The poor advertising campaign falls soley on Axl's shoulders. Rolling Stone Magazine offered him the cover with an exclusive interview. He turned them down, in favor of doing a one-on-one with Del James. He also did an interview with Billboard weeks after the album had been released, but in both instances, he spent more time ranting about Slash's personal faults as a human being and how deplorable the media is than anything related to Chinese Democracy. And as others have pointed out, there were commercials on television, and advertising posters in subways and on buses in virtually every major market. BestBuy released 30 second snippets of the album through a YouTube campaign. And, as I previously mentioned, there was the record breaking stream of the album on Myspace where an average of 25 people per second were listening to one of the songs on the album, which is the largest amount of listeners for an album stream launch on Myspace to date..

Slash had a gigantic push for VR with literally everyone pushing them, and they did not come near what GnR did.

Slash is forthcoming to the media. He doesn't tell them to fuck off and die, so he's treated with respect. That is not to say he's immune from criticism. Contraband leaked weeks before the album's released date and received mixed reviews from most critics. Yet it sold in excess of millions because it had two hit singles. Slither was #1 for 8 weeks on the Mainstream Rock Chart. Fall to Pieces was #1 for 11 weeks..

Are you starting to realize there was no conspiracy?

-Kickingthehabit

[loved2deth]

I seriously doubt Slash would have been famous outside of maybe a somewhat famous 80's hair metal band without Axl there to organize it all.

Wow. Some of you people are crazy.

We've seen what Guns is like with Axl in full control. An anti-publicity machine. Do you really think anyone would have ever heard of Guns N' Roses if Axl had been the dicatator that he is now back in the '80s?

Was Guns ever pro publicity then really? No, you had a massive interest based on an Earth shattering record. Axl has never been to the best of my knowledge the type to find people to interview him.

I made a typo there, and I apologize. I am saying Axl seems to be the organizer, the composer if you will and the other guys have always seemed to fill in the blanks. UYI would have been the same with or without Adler pretty much in overall arrangement.

Listen to the stuff Slash is doing, notice how it is almost great and epic yet it is missing something special, and not just Axl's voice.

I am just saying he did way more than snake dance and sing for the musical parts.

[loved2deth]

Chinese Democracy was killed from leaks and horrible advertising combined with people expecting the best material ever written and so on from all the bullshit said and written about over the years.

Do you honestly believe the millions of people who truly enjoyed Better and IRS simply decided to not buy the album? That somehow they absolutely loved what they heard but decided it wasn't worth going to the store to purchase? Of course not, because most people did not like the leaks. Granted, a few critics happily discussed them with positive feedback, but it didn't interest the greater public. Axl had also been touring the leaked material for nearly a decade before Chinese Democracy was actually released. Where were the record breaking 8 million people who listened to the album on Myspace courtesy the band? Why didn't they go to the store? If the public had been genuinely impressed by the material, it would have created more intrigue. There were no hits, nothing for the greater public to identify with, so the album failed commercially..

You cannot sensibly blame "expectations" for any record's failure. Axl chose to continue using the Guns N' Roses name. Naturally, there's going to be expectations. Were people at fault for having expectations with the Illusion records? Almost every critic at the time said they weren't as good as Appetite for Destruction. Yet they sold a combined 14 million copies. Why? Because it had hit singles and an audience that identified with the material. This is a strawman argument at best, because we're talking about an established band. Any band with an audience is going to have expectations from their audience. Bruce Springsteen isn't just going to release an album without his fans anticipating the very best. He either delivers, or he doesn't. That's how it works..

The poor advertising campaign falls soley on Axl's shoulders. Rolling Stone Magazine offered him the cover with an exclusive interview. He turned them down, in favor of doing a one-on-one with Del James. He also did an interview with Billboard weeks after the album had been released, but in both instances, he spent more time ranting about Slash's personal faults as a human being and how deplorable the media is than anything related to Chinese Democracy. And as others have pointed out, there were commercials on television, and advertising posters in subways and on buses in virtually every major market. BestBuy released 30 second snippets of the album through a YouTube campaign. And, as I previously mentioned, there was the record breaking stream of the album on Myspace where an average of 25 people per second were listening to one of the songs on the album, which is the largest amount of listeners for an album stream launch on Myspace to date..

Slash had a gigantic push for VR with literally everyone pushing them, and they did not come near what GnR did.

Slash is forthcoming to the media. He doesn't tell them to fuck off and die, so he's treated with respect. That is not to say he's immune from criticism. Contraband leaked weeks before the album's released date and received mixed reviews from most critics. Yet it sold in excess of millions because it had two hit singles. Slither was #1 for 8 weeks on the Mainstream Rock Chart. Fall to Pieces was #1 for 11 weeks..

Are you starting to realize there was no conspiracy?

-Kickingthehabit

Never said there was a conspiracy my friend. I am saying that people now don't buy albums, at least in the US if they can steal them. The rest copy them or get them from friends.

If the album sold 500,000 copies here (USA), that would be good for 2 million in 1990.

I have not met another person besides me in person that actually still wants a CD to go with their ITunes.

Axl's actions, to me, keep him and the band interesting. We also have the rumors that CD was made up of the weaker material, so we will just have to wait and see.

For the record, I too want Slash and Izzy back in the band, who doesn't really want that?

I am just saying Axl has somehow gotten this bad rap of being a nobody moron while Slash carried him.

[Lines&Noses]

I seriously doubt Slash would have been famous outside of maybe a somewhat famous 80's hair metal band without Axl there to organize it all.

Wow. Some of you people are crazy.

We've seen what Guns is like with Axl in full control. An anti-publicity machine. Do you really think anyone would have ever heard of Guns N' Roses if Axl had been the dicatator that he is now back in the '80s?

Was Guns ever pro publicity then really? No, you had a massive interest based on an Earth shattering record. Axl has never been to the best of my knowledge the type to find people to interview him.

I made a typo there, and I apologize. I am saying Axl seems to be the organizer, the composer if you will and the other guys have always seemed to fill in the blanks. UYI would have been the same with or without Adler pretty much in overall arrangement.

Listen to the stuff Slash is doing, notice how it is almost great and epic yet it is missing something special, and not just Axl's voice.

I am just saying he did way more than snake dance and sing for the musical parts.

Going by the descriptions of the song writing process that I have read most of the music was written by Slash and Izzy, Axl would come along later and add lyrics. So it was a collaberative effort for the most part.

I do agree with what you say about what slash is doing but the same can be said for Axl's material lacking Slash and the old band? The fact is together there was a synergy that the can not hope to reproduce as individuals.

[loved2deth]

I don't buy the argument that Slash isn't a good songwriter. Do people really think Axl wouldn't sound good on Slither, Fall to Pieces, Starlight, Watch This, Serial Killer, Back and Forth Again, or Saint Is A Sinner? He certainly hasn't released a definitive album on his own, but there's a lot of interesting stuff in his solo catalogue. The notion that Axl needed to leave Slash behind is kind of silly when Chinese Democracy has duds like the title track, IRS and Scraped. Compared to the songs Axl and Slash have composed together; songs in which they literally reached Zeppelin-esque heights, there's really nothing on Chinese Democracy that compares. Even Axl said in the mid-to-late 90s they had incredible demos for the new record, so it's ridiculous to say they broke up over artistic differences. Their relationship ended because they didn't like each other anymore. Axl's freak-out-and-destroy-everything-attitude could not coexist with Slash's passive aggressiveness. And when you have as much money as they do, is it necessary to put up with someone's bullshit? No. They stopped talking, expecting the other to come crawling back, and the silence dragged on for years until there was no relationship left to repair..

-Kickingthehabit

Chinese Democracy was killed from leaks and horrible advertising combined with people expecting the best material ever written and so on from all the bullshit said and written about over the years.

Slash had a gigantic push for VR with literally everyone pushing them, and they did not come near what GnR did.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but really, listen to the songs Slash makes on his own. It is like Axl pushed and pushed him, and he sounds like instead of being innovative he is a generic rock guitarist now. I seriously doubt Slash would have been famous outside of maybe a somewhat famous 80's hair metal band without Axl there to organize it all.

I realize that sales wise CD was crushed by Contraband, but consider the massive difference between the two situations.

I don;t know where you are in the world but in the UK Chi Dem got pushed andpushed hard. They had television adverts, posters on public transport and full page adverts in newspapers. If anything the push for Chi Dem was bigger the Contraband?

The differnce was the VR boys got out there and helped push their record. I'm not even saying I think Contraband was better on balance I think Chi Dem shades it., but to say Chi Dem got no push just is not true at least not in the UK.

Southeast USA. One or two TV ads and a small ad in the sales paper, and of course the SNL advertising.

Contraband was everywhere though.

[loved2deth]

I seriously doubt Slash would have been famous outside of maybe a somewhat famous 80's hair metal band without Axl there to organize it all.

Wow. Some of you people are crazy.

We've seen what Guns is like with Axl in full control. An anti-publicity machine. Do you really think anyone would have ever heard of Guns N' Roses if Axl had been the dicatator that he is now back in the '80s?

Was Guns ever pro publicity then really? No, you had a massive interest based on an Earth shattering record. Axl has never been to the best of my knowledge the type to find people to interview him.

I made a typo there, and I apologize. I am saying Axl seems to be the organizer, the composer if you will and the other guys have always seemed to fill in the blanks. UYI would have been the same with or without Adler pretty much in overall arrangement.

Listen to the stuff Slash is doing, notice how it is almost great and epic yet it is missing something special, and not just Axl's voice.

I am just saying he did way more than snake dance and sing for the musical parts.

Going by the descriptions of the song writing process that I have read most of the music was written by Slash and Izzy, Axl would come along later and add lyrics. So it was a collaberative effort for the most part.

I do agree with what you say about what slash is doing but the same can be said for Axl's material lacking Slash and the old band? The fact is together there was a synergy that the can not hope to reproduce as individuals.

I have always read the opposite, that Axl would compose stuff, then the others would add and so on, a true collaboration.

I agree though, neither of them without Izzy would have a hope of capturing the lightening in the bottle they had. Right now would be a good time though, since the media seems to be scrambling and a growing number of people hate the crap that is out there now in pop culture.

We are at that point like in 1991 where the door is wide open for another Nirvana type revolution, just like people were ready for the rap thing in 2000 or so. Outside of a few bright spots, things need to change yet no one is stepping up.

Edited July 15, 2010 by loved2deth

[seely]

I don't buy the argument that Slash isn't a good songwriter. Do people really think Axl wouldn't sound good on Slither, Fall to Pieces, Starlight, Watch This, Serial Killer, Back and Forth Again, or Saint Is A Sinner? He certainly hasn't released a definitive album on his own, but there's a lot of interesting stuff in his solo catalogue. The notion that Axl needed to leave Slash behind is kind of silly when Chinese Democracy has duds like the title track, IRS and Scraped. Compared to the songs Axl and Slash have composed together; songs in which they literally reached Zeppelin-esque heights, there's really nothing on Chinese Democracy that compares. Even Axl said in the mid-to-late 90s they had incredible demos for the new record, so it's ridiculous to say they broke up over artistic differences. Their relationship ended because they didn't like each other anymore. Axl's freak-out-and-destroy-everything-attitude could not coexist with Slash's passive aggressiveness. And when you have as much money as they do, is it necessary to put up with someone's bullshit? No. They stopped talking, expecting the other to come crawling back, and the silence dragged on for years until there was no relationship left to repair..

-Kickingthehabit

Chinese Democracy was killed from leaks and horrible advertising combined with people expecting the best material ever written and so on from all the bullshit said and written about over the years.

Slash had a gigantic push for VR with literally everyone pushing them, and they did not come near what GnR did.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but really, listen to the songs Slash makes on his own. It is like Axl pushed and pushed him, and he sounds like instead of being innovative he is a generic rock guitarist now. I seriously doubt Slash would have been famous outside of maybe a somewhat famous 80's hair metal band without Axl there to organize it all.

I realize that sales wise CD was crushed by Contraband, but consider the massive difference between the two situations.

I don;t know where you are in the world but in the UK Chi Dem got pushed andpushed hard. They had television adverts, posters on public transport and full page adverts in newspapers. If anything the push for Chi Dem was bigger the Contraband?

The differnce was the VR boys got out there and helped push their record. I'm not even saying I think Contraband was better on balance I think Chi Dem shades it., but to say Chi Dem got no push just is not true at least not in the UK.

Southeast USA. One or two TV ads and a small ad in the sales paper, and of course the SNL advertising.

Contraband was everywhere though.

I live in the UK and all i saw for CD was one TV advert at about midnight. Other than that, i saw nothing, sad to say

[Lines&Noses]

I don't buy the argument that Slash isn't a good songwriter. Do people really think Axl wouldn't sound good on Slither, Fall to Pieces, Starlight, Watch This, Serial Killer, Back and Forth Again, or Saint Is A Sinner? He certainly hasn't released a definitive album on his own, but there's a lot of interesting stuff in his solo catalogue. The notion that Axl needed to leave Slash behind is kind of silly when Chinese Democracy has duds like the title track, IRS and Scraped. Compared to the songs Axl and Slash have composed together; songs in which they literally reached Zeppelin-esque heights, there's really nothing on Chinese Democracy that compares. Even Axl said in the mid-to-late 90s they had incredible demos for the new record, so it's ridiculous to say they broke up over artistic differences. Their relationship ended because they didn't like each other anymore. Axl's freak-out-and-destroy-everything-attitude could not coexist with Slash's passive aggressiveness. And when you have as much money as they do, is it necessary to put up with someone's bullshit? No. They stopped talking, expecting the other to come crawling back, and the silence dragged on for years until there was no relationship left to repair..

-Kickingthehabit

Chinese Democracy was killed from leaks and horrible advertising combined with people expecting the best material ever written and so on from all the bullshit said and written about over the years.

Slash had a gigantic push for VR with literally everyone pushing them, and they did not come near what GnR did.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but really, listen to the songs Slash makes on his own. It is like Axl pushed and pushed him, and he sounds like instead of being innovative he is a generic rock guitarist now. I seriously doubt Slash would have been famous outside of maybe a somewhat famous 80's hair metal band without Axl there to organize it all.

I realize that sales wise CD was crushed by Contraband, but consider the massive difference between the two situations.

I don;t know where you are in the world but in the UK Chi Dem got pushed andpushed hard. They had television adverts, posters on public transport and full page adverts in newspapers. If anything the push for Chi Dem was bigger the Contraband?

The differnce was the VR boys got out there and helped push their record. I'm not even saying I think Contraband was better on balance I think Chi Dem shades it., but to say Chi Dem got no push just is not true at least not in the UK.

Southeast USA. One or two TV ads and a small ad in the sales paper, and of course the SNL advertising.

Contraband was everywhere though.

I live in the UK and all i saw for CD was one TV advert at about midnight. Other than that, i saw nothing, sad to say

Well in London as wella s TV you had posters ont eh tube/trains and buses + full page adverts in national papers?