Chinese Democracy: A masterpiece

[Vincent Vega]

I'm a moderate on GN'R issues. I don't hate Axl or Slash, and don't really feel myself to be on any "team" anymore, aka the Axlite and Slashite crap, I love both Old GN'R and New GN'R equally at the end of the day...It's just about whatever the music says nowadays at least for me. I don't go back and listen to Chinese Democracy as often as I do the Use Your Illusion albums, which are probably amongst my favorite albums of all time, but when I do, I fucking love CD. A lot of times I've been ashamed to feel that way because of peer pressure, but it really is a good album, IMO. It's an album that's cool to hate, it's an album that you obviously must have bad taste in music to love according to many, it's an album that's definitely self indulgent, it's overproduced and overworked but somehow in spite of all of that, or perhaps, because of that, it's fucking brilliant. It's basically Axl's sort of "Fuck you", it's art, it's Axl's statement, It's got an amazing amount of variety, and while it's not as riff oriented as AFD or the UYI albums, the guitar work is beautiful, the experimentation and instrumentals are awesome, Axl's voice is on for the most part and most of his lyrics are actually really beautiful. It's art, pure and simple. Art rock in that grand old fashioned '70s style along the lines of Rush or Physical Graffiti yet with miminalist songwriting and songs that, beneath all the production, have very beautiful melodies.

I think it's a sadly underrated and unfortunately maligned album and while at times I've run with the crowd and mocked this or that, and while it has it's share of imperfections, I do believe it's art. It doesn't pull any punches or pretend to be something it doesn't. Axl didn't go out of his way to be either radio friendly nor did he go out of his way to be obscure either--He just made music that moved him. And that for me is the definition of being an artist.

[Rustycage]

Nah. It sucks.

An incredibly anti-climactic and boring album. So many songs I have to strain to hear the guitar fills. WTF.

[finck6]

chinese democracy the record is masterpiece. it's a modern rock masterpiece cause of axl's surprise intense vocals on better and twat. his surprise mellowing out on prostitute. and his syrupy vocals on if the world. it's a masterpiece cause of the big rock solos. rock solos which take rock 2 the next level. robin finck and buckethead accomplish on the record something not seen since slash. big solos in big spots. memorable. stinging. EPIC. make the album a masterpiece of music

[Madridista]

Having listened to it over and over again in the past few days, I've come to appreciate it more. I don't hate it anymore, it's grown on me. I like 11 out of its 14 songs. It's good, but I wouldn't call it a masterpiece. Very few albums can be called a masterpiece, an example being Metallica's Master of Puppets or Iron Maiden's Powerslave. I'm not even sure AFD is a masterpiece. I thought a masterpiece was a work of outstanding artistry and CD is far from being outstanding, IMO. It's very good, but outstanding, I'm not so sure. For CD to be a masterpiece I think it would've had to put GnR back there where it was in its heyday. You know, I'm not tupid, I know this is not 1992 anymore, but my point is, outside the die-hard GnR fanbase circle, most of us here, though I don't think of myself as a die-hard fan, nobody really cares about CD. It's sold for $3 online. That must mean something. When the UYI albums came out, people who didn't even listen to rock/metal knew what GnR was. And I know for a fact that a lot of people who didn't necessarily listen to rock did go to see GnR live in the 90's, 'cause everyone wanted to see THE BIGGEST BAND in the world. Hell, everybody listened to songs like Don't Cry and November Rain. CD has failed to do that for GnR. I know we don't care, 'cause we're faithful fans, and I'll say it again, now I like CD. But it's not a masterpiece.

The problem with threads like this is that it's all a matter of taste. It all boils down to what you like and as we all know, there's no accounting for taste.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Madridista

[Vincent Vega]

When I say masterpiece I mean it differently than most people. I don't mean like it's the best album ever, it's up there with this or that...It's not. It's not even close to the UYI albums or to anything the Beatles, Zep or the Stones ever put out. It's an odd, artistic album, it's something like 70s Rush or Queen, it's a masterpiece in that it's exactly what Axl wanted it to be. It's not an album which was made to be catchy or commercial or radio friendly like AFD is in many ways; It's not an album designed by committee like the UYIs are..It's a pure artistic statement, unsullied by nothing except the tinkering of it's creator. Masterpiece usually means like great or awesome or whatever. But I just mean it's so odd and out there that it just somehow works. Maybe it's one of those albums that is so bad it's actually good; I don't know. It's not a fun album, it's definitely not something to party to, it's not a classic, but it's something that I enjoy when I listen to it.

[WillieC]

I really didn't like it and haven't listened to it in a long time. I listen to There was a Time now and then but it doesn't have the same feel as when it first came out.

[californiaz06]

Not a big fan of it

TWAT and Shacklers and maybe Sorry, but other than that it's not my cup of tea. I appreciate the work put into it and all and the songs have some potential but it doesn't compare to UYI's or AFD at all.

[Jakey Styley]

My favorite album ever. I can see how somebody else wouldn't enjoy it but to call it a "bad album" is just ignorant.

[Madridista]

When I say masterpiece I mean it differently than most people. I don't mean like it's the best album ever, it's up there with this or that...It's not. It's not even close to the UYI albums or to anything the Beatles, Zep or the Stones ever put out. It's an odd, artistic album, it's something like 70s Rush or Queen, it's a masterpiece in that it's exactly what Axl wanted it to be. It's not an album which was made to be catchy or commercial or radio friendly like AFD is in many ways; It's not an album designed by committee like the UYIs are..It's a pure artistic statement, unsullied by nothing except the tinkering of it's creator. Masterpiece usually means like great or awesome or whatever. But I just mean it's so odd and out there that it just somehow works. Maybe it's one of those albums that is so bad it's actually good; I don't know. It's not a fun album, it's definitely not something to party to, it's not a classic, but it's something that I enjoy when I listen to it.

I see what you mean, but the highlighted part makes no sense to me.

Anyway, yeah.. it's not exactly a fun album. God knows I hated it the first time I listened to it. I couldn't believe what I was listening to. But you know, after hanging out here, and reading how much people defend it, I thought I might as well listen to it without being judgmental and really listen to it.

Now I like it. This I love, Sorry, Chinese Democracy, Catcher, Revenge, Street... all good songs. They do take some serious getting used to though

But you know, I'm not sure if I like it because it's Axl's voice and I like his voice. Or if I like it because I've listened to it so many times I'm just used to it now or if it's because the songs I like are actually good. It's confusing because I am a fan.

Now, though I like CD, I still think of the new Gnr as Axl & friends. I'm not trolling or anything and I won't take sides on the whole Axl vs Slash thing, 'cause I wasn't there. I've never met them and frankly I don't care. They're two mature old men and I don't have anything to do with them. I'm just a fan. I buy the music and listen to it. Period.

But to me GnR will always be Axl, Slash, Duff, Izzy and Steven, or Gilby and Matt. I'm sorry. That's just the way I feel.

Which doesn't mean I don't like CD. But when I saw the new band onstage back in 2010 in South America, twice mind you, I didn't feel any special connection to them, like I would have if I'd seen the original lineup.

Don't bash me for stating my opinion, please. To me it was just a supporting band and Axl Rose onstage.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Madridista

[HisRoyalSweetness]

i don't like the music, but i like how it represents all that was bloated, top-heavy, indulgent and stupid about the record industry that died along with it.

azoff convincing best buy to recoup the 14 million wasted on that album is one of the great managerial coups of all time. i wonder if axl can even appreciate that.

[Rustycage]

to call it a "bad album" is just ignorant.

Really? Have something to back that up?

It's stupid that someone doesn't want to hear bitching and moaning with hardly any break? How about some actual riffs? Not just power chords. So much layered garbage that everything loses it's crunch. Unlike AFD or UYI's, there isn't one single riff I care to play myself because they are just boring. If you like GNR for Axl, I guess I can see why people like it but it's ignorant to suggest that the music is anything impressive. If it can't sound good stripped down to the RNR basics, then it's not good. Layer as much crap that you want in the studio. It isn't impressive musically. It's more impressive that they must have used about 100 tracks on a song.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Rustycage

[Jakey Styley]

to call it a "bad album" is just ignorant.

Really? Have something to back that up?

It's stupid that someone doesn't want to hear bitching and moaning with hardly any break? How about some actual riffs? Not just power chords. So much layered garbage that everything loses it's crunch. Unlike AFD or UYI's, there isn't one single riff I care to play myself because they are just boring. If you like GNR for Axl, I guess I can see why people like it but it's ignorant to suggest that the music is anything impressive. If it can't sound good stripped down to the RNR basics, then it's not good.

If you call it a bad album, I interpret that as you saying that not much talent went into its creation, which is far from the truth. It's cool if you don't enjoy it though.

[Madridista]

Hm, interesting point, Rustycage. But then again, Axl didn't want to do a raw and straightforward rock album. Read Slash's biography, Axl was the one that added all the synths and sound effects to the UYI albums. So CD is just the album he wanted to make. It's a very personal album if you see it that way.

If Slash were the one at the helm of GnR, we'd have gotten a straightforward rock album. But Axl is the one calling the shots. And since nobody challenges him or questions his decisions, CD is 101% an Axl Rose album.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Madridista

[moreblack]

this is a ship that failed to launch.

[Rustycage]

to call it a "bad album" is just ignorant.

Really? Have something to back that up?

It's stupid that someone doesn't want to hear bitching and moaning with hardly any break? How about some actual riffs? Not just power chords. So much layered garbage that everything loses it's crunch. Unlike AFD or UYI's, there isn't one single riff I care to play myself because they are just boring. If you like GNR for Axl, I guess I can see why people like it but it's ignorant to suggest that the music is anything impressive. If it can't sound good stripped down to the RNR basics, then it's not good.

If you call it a bad album, I interpret that as you saying that not much talent went into its creation, which is far from the truth. It's cool if you don't enjoy it though.

No, I am not saying there isn't talent. My point is that in a studio, you can layer so many things to make it "big." You have an infinite amount of tools at your disposal and that doesn't impress me. I don't hear one riff that makes me go, "damn, that's a bad ass sound and catchy." Don't Damn Me has that riff. And the sound makes it even more mean. I like GNR from the musical aspect. Mostly guitar. When there's so much power chords, it's lame. It's my opinion and I'm not going to concede anyone is ignorant for feeling that way.

Good is HOW you play it not how many times you stack it.

[Vincent Vega]

Hm, interesting point, Rustycage. But then again, Axl didn't want to do a raw and straightforward rock album. Read Slash's biography, Axl was the one that added all the synths and sound effects to the UYI albums. So CD is just the album he wanted to make. It's a very personal album if you see it that way.

If Slash were the one at the helm of GnR, we'd have gotten a straightforward rock album. But Axl is the one calling the shots. And since nobody challenges him or questions his decisions, CD is 101% an Axl Rose album.

We've gotten Slash's vision of what he wanted the next GN'R album to be with the first Snakepit album. CD is Axl's vision. Both are brilliant for very different reasons. I'm generally tolerant when it comes to music though given that I have 24,000 songs on my IPod and pretty much try to absorb everything I can from all sorts of music.

[shotgunblues1978]

to call it a "bad album" is just ignorant.

Really? Have something to back that up?

It's stupid that someone doesn't want to hear bitching and moaning with hardly any break? How about some actual riffs? Not just power chords. So much layered garbage that everything loses it's crunch. Unlike AFD or UYI's, there isn't one single riff I care to play myself because they are just boring. If you like GNR for Axl, I guess I can see why people like it but it's ignorant to suggest that the music is anything impressive. If it can't sound good stripped down to the RNR basics, then it's not good. Layer as much crap that you want in the studio. It isn't impressive musically. It's more impressive that they must have used about 100 tracks on a song.

So basically your conclusion is that since it's not a stripped down riff-based rock album that it's bad? If you don't like it that's cool, but none of the things you mentioned inherently make it a bad album

[finck6]

this is a ship that failed to launch.

me disagree

[Rustycage]

Hm, interesting point, Rustycage. But then again, Axl didn't want to do a raw and straightforward rock album. Read Slash's biography, Axl was the one that added all the synths and sound effects to the UYI albums. So CD is just the album he wanted to make. It's a very personal album if you see it that way.

If Slash were the one at the helm of GnR, we'd have gotten a straightforward rock album. But Axl is the one calling the shots. And since nobody challenges him or questions his decisions, CD is 101% an Axl Rose album.

Yeah, I've read his book. That part stuck out to me that he was using vocal time to lay on synth. He credits him for the difficulty of it since he didn't have the tools available to him then that he does now. I know it's an Axl Rose album and that leads to the age old solo artist argument that I don't want to get into.

[finck6]

Hm, interesting point, Rustycage. But then again, Axl didn't want to do a raw and straightforward rock album. Read Slash's biography, Axl was the one that added all the synths and sound effects to the UYI albums. So CD is just the album he wanted to make. It's a very personal album if you see it that way.

If Slash were the one at the helm of GnR, we'd have gotten a straightforward rock album. But Axl is the one calling the shots. And since nobody challenges him or questions his decisions, CD is 101% an Axl Rose album.

Yeah, I've read his book. That part stuck out to me that he was using vocal time to lay on synth. He credits him for the difficulty of it since he didn't have the tools available to him then that he does now. I know it's an Axl Rose album and that leads to the age old solo artist argument that I don't want to get into.

chinese democracy sounds like a guns n roses record. not a solo effort from axl rose

[Rustycage]

to call it a "bad album" is just ignorant.

Really? Have something to back that up?

It's stupid that someone doesn't want to hear bitching and moaning with hardly any break? How about some actual riffs? Not just power chords. So much layered garbage that everything loses it's crunch. Unlike AFD or UYI's, there isn't one single riff I care to play myself because they are just boring. If you like GNR for Axl, I guess I can see why people like it but it's ignorant to suggest that the music is anything impressive. If it can't sound good stripped down to the RNR basics, then it's not good. Layer as much crap that you want in the studio. It isn't impressive musically. It's more impressive that they must have used about 100 tracks on a song.

So basically your conclusion is that since it's not a stripped down riff-based rock album that it's bad? If you don't like it that's cool, but none of the things you mentioned inherently make it a bad album

It doesn't make it interesting. I really don't need approval to carry that opinion. I have my reasons and it isn't because it's Axl. It's just boring to me.

[Guest Broskirose]

My favorite album ever

[Madridista]

Hm, interesting point, Rustycage. But then again, Axl didn't want to do a raw and straightforward rock album. Read Slash's biography, Axl was the one that added all the synths and sound effects to the UYI albums. So CD is just the album he wanted to make. It's a very personal album if you see it that way.

If Slash were the one at the helm of GnR, we'd have gotten a straightforward rock album. But Axl is the one calling the shots. And since nobody challenges him or questions his decisions, CD is 101% an Axl Rose album.

We've gotten Slash's vision of what he wanted the next GN'R album to be with the first Snakepit album. CD is Axl's vision. Both are brilliant for very different reasons. I'm generally tolerant when it comes to music though given that I have 24,000 songs on my IPod and pretty much try to absorb everything I can from all sorts of music.

Now I'm also trying to be more tolerant when I listen to music.

But you know, I wonder why Axl and Slash couldn't find some middle ground when it came to writing the new album. Granted, UYI has its fair share of mullti-layered songs like Estranged and plenty of ballads like So Fine and two versions of Don't cry. As you know, Slash is not into ballads, but UYI also has plenty of straightforward rock songs like Back off bitch or YCBM or Shotgun blues.

If they had come to an agreement regarding the new album, it'd have had something to please everybody. Ballads and synths for Axl, rock songs for Slash.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Madridista

[Rustycage]

Hm, interesting point, Rustycage. But then again, Axl didn't want to do a raw and straightforward rock album. Read Slash's biography, Axl was the one that added all the synths and sound effects to the UYI albums. So CD is just the album he wanted to make. It's a very personal album if you see it that way.

If Slash were the one at the helm of GnR, we'd have gotten a straightforward rock album. But Axl is the one calling the shots. And since nobody challenges him or questions his decisions, CD is 101% an Axl Rose album.

Yeah, I've read his book. That part stuck out to me that he was using vocal time to lay on synth. He credits him for the difficulty of it since he didn't have the tools available to him then that he does now. I know it's an Axl Rose album and that leads to the age old solo artist argument that I don't want to get into.

chinese democracy sounds like a guns n roses record. not a solo effort from axl rose

Thank you for that deep input. Instrumentally, it is not a GNR sound. The songs go nowhere. I don't think of GNR as just throwing any shit on the bars and letting Axl sing on it and that making it GNR. It was more than a singer.

[Vincent Vega]

Hm, interesting point, Rustycage. But then again, Axl didn't want to do a raw and straightforward rock album. Read Slash's biography, Axl was the one that added all the synths and sound effects to the UYI albums. So CD is just the album he wanted to make. It's a very personal album if you see it that way.

If Slash were the one at the helm of GnR, we'd have gotten a straightforward rock album. But Axl is the one calling the shots. And since nobody challenges him or questions his decisions, CD is 101% an Axl Rose album.

We've gotten Slash's vision of what he wanted the next GN'R album to be with the first Snakepit album. CD is Axl's vision. Both are brilliant for very different reasons. I'm generally tolerant when it comes to music though given that I have 24,000 songs on my IPod and pretty much try to absorb everything I can from all sorts of music.

Now I'm also trying to be more tolerant when I listen to music.

But you know, I wonder why Axl and Slash couldn't find some middle ground when it came to writing the new album. Granted, UYI has its fair share of mullti-layered songs like Estranged and plenty of ballads like So Fine and two versions of Don't cry. As you know, Slash is not into ballads, but UYI also has plenty of straightforward rock songs like Back off bitch or YCBM or Shotgun blues.

If they had come to an agreement regarding the new álbum, it'd have had something to please everybody. Ballads and synths for Axl, rock songs for Slash.

My feeling is that they should've released a double album. CD1 would be more traditional rock. CD2 would be more experimental. Basically two albums in one but with the band contributing of course and helping write the material.

Off topic but I'm feeling so calm and relaxed right now...Listened to R.E.M, then In The Summertime by Mungo Jerry, then Paranoid by Sabbath and listening to How Deep is Your Love by the Bee Gees now. It feels almost like a natural high.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Indigo Miser