Dr. Who

Izzy Stradlin has a track record of writing great songs with Slash. Fortus does not.

By 1991, Guns N' Roses' popularity, while still huge in terms of mainstream appeal, had largely decreased.

It is actually better GN'R broke up when they did as it allowed them to have a mystique ("What could have been") that didn't necessarily translate into reality.

- Guess you weren't around in 1991 when the clock struck midnight on the release date of the Illusion albums

- Better they broke up rather than continue on and create great music because...... a mystique is better than actual content? Because NIrvana fans might think GnR is lame?

You went from them having the highest selling debut of all time in 1987 to selling 7 million apiece in '91. They certainly weren't the biggest rock group in 1991 in terms of popularity, Metallica's self-titled from that year waaay outsold the UYI records for example. But they had retained enough of a fanbase to garner the midnight release lines, but it didn't translate into record sales. The Use Your Illusions were expected within the industry to outsell Thriller, and they didn't; they didn't have as much staying power on the charts as AFD did either.

AFD was certified 8x Platinum on July 26th 1989, two years after its' release and the closest certification AFD had to the release of the UYIs; it was certified 10x platinum in February 1993.

By two years of release (November 2nd 1992) Use Your Illusion I had only certified 4x Platnum; UYI 2 met this certification on October 12th 1992; by this same point, Metallica's self-titled had went 6x Platinum in October 1992; Nevermind had hit 5x Platinum by this point, and Ten had hit 3x Platinum (it would jump to 6x Platinum by Dec '93 whereas the UYIs wouldn't chart 6x platinum until 1995)

You don't get it. If you actually think album sales tell the whole story then I'm sorry there's not much I can say. If you think Nirvana's 5X platinum album made them a bigger band than GnR in 1991-1992 you're sadly mistaken. They were the new "it" thing but they weren't selling out arenas and stadiums like GnR was. Again you must not have been around for the frenzy that was the release of the Illusions. There hadn't been anythng like that in decades so. To say GnR's popularity had decreased by 1991 is absurd because the FACT is their popularity was at an all time high between 1991-1993

Maybe in 1991 Guns was big but by 1993 they were old-hat. Pearl Jam was better than both bands anyway.

No. Talk to people that were alive in 1993. GnR was still absolutely huge.

Illusions have sold more than 17 million copies each. Not 7 million.

Pearl Jam was better? That's your own personal preference. I found them boring and overplayed. I would be happy to never hear Jeremy or even flow ever again.

In a five year period GnR released four albums that went on to sell 75 million copies and produced several iconic songs that are still well known today.

Nobody can predict the future. But based on their success from 87-93, it's obvious they had the potential to be our generation's Stones or Aerosmith. Unfortunately the band broke up. And the main dynamic of the band, Axl Rose, decided to not release music any more.

Your topic is a good one.

Your reasoning in your posts - pretty terrible and pretty much flat out wrong.

They've only been certified 7x platinum. Which is 7 million.

Does anyone else agree that 1992 represents the year GN'R's popularity peaked?

Here's my reasons why:

-They were invited to, and stole the show at, the Freddie Mercury Tribute (April '92)
-Axl was invited to sing with U2 in June '92, who were a huge band themselves
-They were so big that they could host, on their own, a PPV special with Aerosmith, Lenny Kravitz and Jeff Beck (planned) as guests, June '92
-They were the main event at the 1992 VMAs in September '92
-November Rain, nearly 10 minutes long, hit #2 on the Billboard Hot 100 in the summer of 1992, and broke into the Top 40
-November Rain's video was the most requested video for the entire year of 1992.

Anyone else think '92 was GN'R's year - the apex of their fame/popularity?

Also wanted to add that, they were so big that the main music concert event of '92 was their summer tour with Metallica co-headlining and Soundgarden supporting.

i'd love to see Slash's reaction at the time when he first heard the song and heard that answer solo

he was pretty upset about it in the interview...the moment he heard it had to be hilarious

now im gonna laugh every time i hear it just picturing Slash's possible reaction

"What da fuck?!"

The best scenario is definitely some new material and a tour with slash, duff, izzy, steven and matt joining as "guests".

Join who?

Seriously. Axl has no band left. No Ron. No #Ashba. Probably no Tommy. Who the fuck are they joining? Axl, Pitman, Dizzy and the Drummer du jour? That's pathetic.

And even IF Axl would still have a band, it would be blown away by the "guest spots" of the only legitimate Guns n' Roses who are also the only band people actually want to see.

The only things that can happen that I'd still care for are:

1. A reunion tour. AFD lineup. I'd even prefer ditching Dizzy Reed, but I suppose that's not really an option. Having Steven and Matt both is acceptable. Possibly make an album after that, but really if they don't it's ok too. I'm fine with closing the book on GnR with a reunion tour and everybody going their own way afterwards.

2. The release of the 1998-2008 Chinese Leftovers 7-cd 3-dvd box set. Close the whole CD period permanently with how CD and it's 2 followups SHOULD have turned out and don't include anything that has Ashba on it. The only acceptable packaging for this product would be:

Steven wouldn't work for a reunion tour. A reunion concert with Steven? Yes. A full tour would just see him relapsing and wrecking havoc on the band.

I voted for Volume 2, as it represents a more mature and musically "smarter" side of GnR since the majority of the tracks on that record were written post-AFD and therefore better represent where the band was at that point.

Volume 1 is mostly just a collection of AFD leftovers, and my philosophy is that if a song is not considered for release the first time around (which in this case would be AFD), then chances are it's not that good at all. Most of the AFD leftovers on either Illusion feel that way to me (with the exception of a few gems like YCBM and such). But since the majority of these 80s leftovers are on the first disc, I tend to find that one to be less compelling or interesting.

The only UYI I songs written at the time of AFD were NR, The Garden, DC, Back off Bitch, and Bad Obsession. The rest were post '87.

Canter said the band played Perfect Crime at least a few times in 1985 (a video clip even exists of it), tho thag point is kinda mute since that's actually one of the few I like. Slash said in his book that Axl wrote Dead Horse years before they met (tho I'm not sure how accurate that is cause I coulda sworn Axl told Howard Stern in 1989 that he had only just started to learn guitar at that point).

I do get what you're trying to say overall tho. But even if the majority of tracks on volume1 were written post-AFD, the overall tone and feel of that particular collection still feels like the band was trying too hard to be something they just weren't anymore (which is an 80s metal band). Whereas on volume2 it generally sounds like they aren't afraid to grow and progress (but still be themselves, if that makes sense)

Yeah I think Dead Horse was written around 1989 or so because Axl didn't know much on the guitar at that point - just two chords.

I guess as far as your point. I like UYI I because I feel it's similar enough to AFD, but is sort of the 'next step' in the AFD direction, whereas UYI II is more experimental and ballad flavored.

I voted for Volume 2, as it represents a more mature and musically "smarter" side of GnR since the majority of the tracks on that record were written post-AFD and therefore better represent where the band was at that point.

Volume 1 is mostly just a collection of AFD leftovers, and my philosophy is that if a song is not considered for release the first time around (which in this case would be AFD), then chances are it's not that good at all. Most of the AFD leftovers on either Illusion feel that way to me (with the exception of a few gems like YCBM and such). But since the majority of these 80s leftovers are on the first disc, I tend to find that one to be less compelling or interesting.

The only UYI I songs written at the time of AFD were NR, The Garden, DC, Back off Bitch, and Bad Obsession. The rest were post '87.

4/10

I

This is not exactly on topic, but interesting

It's nice to hear Axl's vox clearer on that song, cause he's sort of low in the mix. His voice sounds great and utterly different than what we'd hear on Live Era and at Rio 5/6 years later. Sounds like vintage Axl there.

By 1991, Guns N' Roses' popularity, while still huge in terms of mainstream appeal, had largely decreased.

It is actually better GN'R broke up when they did as it allowed them to have a mystique ("What could have been") that didn't necessarily translate into reality.

- Guess you weren't around in 1991 when the clock struck midnight on the release date of the Illusion albums

- Better they broke up rather than continue on and create great music because...... a mystique is better than actual content? Because NIrvana fans might think GnR is lame?

You went from them having the highest selling debut of all time in 1987 to selling 7 million apiece in '91. They certainly weren't the biggest rock group in 1991 in terms of popularity, Metallica's self-titled from that year waaay outsold the UYI records for example. But they had retained enough of a fanbase to garner the midnight release lines, but it didn't translate into record sales. The Use Your Illusions were expected within the industry to outsell Thriller, and they didn't; they didn't have as much staying power on the charts as AFD did either.

AFD was certified 8x Platinum on July 26th 1989, two years after its' release and the closest certification AFD had to the release of the UYIs; it was certified 10x platinum in February 1993.

By two years of release (November 2nd 1992) Use Your Illusion I had only certified 4x Platnum; UYI 2 met this certification on October 12th 1992; by this same point, Metallica's self-titled had went 6x Platinum in October 1992; Nevermind had hit 5x Platinum by this point, and Ten had hit 3x Platinum (it would jump to 6x Platinum by Dec '93 whereas the UYIs wouldn't chart 6x platinum until 1995)

You don't get it. If you actually think album sales tell the whole story then I'm sorry there's not much I can say. If you think Nirvana's 5X platinum album made them a bigger band than GnR in 1991-1992 you're sadly mistaken. They were the new "it" thing but they weren't selling out arenas and stadiums like GnR was. Again you must not have been around for the frenzy that was the release of the Illusions. There hadn't been anythng like that in decades so. To say GnR's popularity had decreased by 1991 is absurd because the FACT is their popularity was at an all time high between 1991-1993

Nirvana didn't want to tour stadiums. Maybe in 1991 Guns was big but by 1993 they were old-hat. Pearl Jam was better than both bands anyway.

Well my response is fuck Axl Rose and fuck Lemmy too. I've been made aware of the fact a number of time that, apparently, rockstars are not obliged to be nice to me or respectful so uh, to be quite honest with you I couldn't give a fuck if they get bottled, fuck em. If they don't have to be civil neither do I.

If you wanna go round givin' it large, smackin' photographers, actin' like you're a rudeboy well then you're gonna attract a certain kinda person like that, Cliff Richard don't have a problem with that kinda stuff, you get that kinda element when you project a certain image and set yourself up as being a certain kind of person, so don't whine when people treat you according to the way you act.

And as far as 'we can just end the show now and go home', well go on then, fuck off.

Well sorry to say, but your post is fucking stupid.

You're welcome to your opinion but quite frankly to me lifes simple right? Where i dont get respect i dont give respect and also, in an ideal world we'd all be lovey dovey kissey huggy all that fuckin bollocks right but the facts of life are thus, you play rowdy fuckin' rock n roll music you're gonna get rowdy fuckin people showing up, the odd punch up, a bottle flying here or there is par for the course, now you can moan about it for the rest of your fuckin' life it aint gonna make no fuckin difference and if you wanna walk off and cancel the gig cuz of a couple of bottles flying here or there well then goes to show whoose the fuckin' soft lad, doesnt it?

'Ooh what if a bottle hits someone in a particular spot on their head and kills them?!?'

Yeah well what if a photographer falls funny when you chin them at some fuckin' airport for taking pictures?

Whether its right or wrong or whatever this is music that came from dives and shitholes and its content and the aggressiveness of it is reflected in the lyrics and the style of the music and the general behaviour of at one time the band and to this day of the lead singer, you act fuckin' lairy make lairy music and yo attract lairy people to your gigs, it aint rocket science, no ones fuckin' bottling christian evangelical artists with their accoustic guitars and their praise Jesus stuff, you get treated like what you act like in this life I'm afraid.

Learn to fuckin' duck

If someone hurled a bottle at Kurt Cobain you'd be sayin how they're the biggest scumbag in human history cause he was Punk RAWK enuff.

Steven did

Marc I have a question, outside of Paul's image, do you think Paul had enough talent to be in GN'R? Duff and Slash felt he didn't have the 'chops' but what did you think? Did you ever witness Paul and Slash rehearsing together or in the same room together?

Axl wins thusly with prat and mithe

By 1991, Guns N' Roses' popularity, while still huge in terms of mainstream appeal, had largely decreased.

It is actually better GN'R broke up when they did as it allowed them to have a mystique ("What could have been") that didn't necessarily translate into reality.

- Guess you weren't around in 1991 when the clock struck midnight on the release date of the Illusion albums

- Better they broke up rather than continue on and create great music because...... a mystique is better than actual content? Because NIrvana fans might think GnR is lame?

You went from them having the highest selling debut of all time in 1987 to selling 7 million apiece in '91. They certainly weren't the biggest rock group in 1991 in terms of popularity, Metallica's self-titled from that year waaay outsold the UYI records for example. But they had retained enough of a fanbase to garner the midnight release lines, but it didn't translate into record sales. The Use Your Illusions were expected within the industry to outsell Thriller, and they didn't; they didn't have as much staying power on the charts as AFD did either.

AFD was certified 8x Platinum on July 26th 1989, two years after its' release and the closest certification AFD had to the release of the UYIs; it was certified 10x platinum in February 1993.

By two years of release (November 2nd 1992) Use Your Illusion I had only certified 4x Platnum; UYI 2 met this certification on October 12th 1992; by this same point, Metallica's self-titled had went 6x Platinum in October 1992; Nevermind had hit 5x Platinum by this point, and Ten had hit 3x Platinum (it would jump to 6x Platinum by Dec '93 whereas the UYIs wouldn't chart 6x platinum until 1995)

You don't get it. If you actually think album sales tell the whole story then I'm sorry there's not much I can say. If you think Nirvana's 5X platinum album made them a bigger band than GnR in 1991-1992 you're sadly mistaken. They were the new "it" thing but they weren't selling out arenas and stadiums like GnR was. Again you must not have been around for the frenzy that was the release of the Illusions. There hadn't been anythng like that in decades so. To say GnR's popularity had decreased by 1991 is absurd because the FACT is their popularity was at an all time high between 1991-1993

By 1991, Guns N' Roses' popularity, while still huge in terms of mainstream appeal, had largely decreased.

It is actually better GN'R broke up when they did as it allowed them to have a mystique ("What could have been") that didn't necessarily translate into reality.

- Guess you weren't around in 1991 when the clock struck midnight on the release date of the Illusion albums

- Better they broke up rather than continue on and create great music because...... a mystique is better than actual content? Because NIrvana fans might think GnR is lame?

You went from them having the highest selling debut of all time in 1987 to selling 7 million apiece in '91. They certainly weren't the biggest rock group in 1991 in terms of popularity, Metallica's self-titled from that year waaay outsold the UYI records for example. But they had retained enough of a fanbase to garner the midnight release lines, but it didn't translate into record sales. The Use Your Illusions were expected within the industry to outsell Thriller, and they didn't; they didn't have as much staying power on the charts as AFD did either.

AFD was certified 8x Platinum on July 26th 1989, two years after its' release and the closest certification AFD had to the release of the UYIs; it was certified 10x platinum in February 1993.

By two years of release (November 2nd 1992) Use Your Illusion I had only certified 4x Platnum; UYI 2 met this certification on October 12th 1992; by this same point, Metallica's self-titled had went 6x Platinum in October 1992; Nevermind had hit 5x Platinum by this point, and Ten had hit 3x Platinum (it would jump to 6x Platinum by Dec '93 whereas the UYIs wouldn't chart 6x platinum until 1995)

Comparing bands throughout eras is like comparing Quarterback stats in football throughout eras: it's all about context.

The Stones themselves were not releasing albums every year or two anymore by the time GnR released AFD.

The UYI Albums combined to sell about 14 million, AFD is at 18 (in the US). Definitely a drop-off, but not as severe as you make it seem. TSI was a cover album with "Since I Don't Have You" released as a single. Are you really surprised it didn't sell well in the grunge era?

GnR had toured the US several times by 1993. It makes perfect sense they'd scale back a bit.

I'm not even trying to question the sentiment (I agree, btw), but some of the things you listed are quite easy to debunk.

But when people say "they were the next Stones", it doesn't seem like they're talking about the Stones of the late 80s, but more that Guns were going to be what the Stones in the 70s were or the enduring brand that Aerosmith became. One of the big players, game changers in rock n' roll. Whereas I look at Guns increasingly, as simply a bridge between Motley Crue and Pearl Jam - both feet planted in that world. WTTJ, SCOM, NR are great tunes but they're not the gamechangers that say, Gimme Shelter or Satisfaction were. They're nowhere near as legendary as Sweet Emotion etc. I don't think Guns, even if the original/UYI band stayed together, had much more left in them in terms of popularity or relevance. They'd be in a better position than Axl's Guns are, but they wouldn't be as big as U2 say. The only reason they have this mythos surrounding them is because they had an amazing debut album and wild live shows and they ended so prematurely, so people think 'Wow, what might've been would've been so cool." But the reality is they were fading even by the mid 90s. They weren't going to be like the Stones and Aerosmith were.

I've heard it said here at times that, if only GN'R hadn't broken up in 1996, they would've been the next Rolling Stones, they'd be the Rolling Stones of Gen X. I'm increasingly coming to rebuke this train of thought. GN'R, more and more it seems to me, were a bit of a flash in the pan. They came out with one huge album in 1987 and several good albums until 1991. But their activity, for one, was nowhere near as prolific as the Stones were in the 1960s or 1970s. Secondly, in the public consciousness (outside of GN'R forums), the UYI records, while huge in 1991, are largely forgotten or considered mixed works. By 1991, Guns N' Roses' popularity, while still huge in terms of mainstream appeal, had largely decreased. Where Appetite sold 15 million album copies (in the US), the Use Your Illusions only sold 7 million copies, a drop of almost 8 million records. Their next album, cover album aside, just broke 1 million. After Appetite, in terms of sales we see a trend of diminishing returns. By 1993, GN'R, while still popular, had lost a lot of their cultural relevance due to Axl's on stage antics and the rise of Pearl Jam and other bands. I read an article once from 1997 which stated that Guns were touring stadiums (in the US) in 1992 and arenas in 1993, indicating a decline in popularity even in terms of the live act.

Compare this to the Stones, who aren't known for just one album and whose career didn't hit it's peak until they had been at the game for a decade - roughly the early 1970s. The Stones also averaged one album per year from 1962 to 1972 and had by 1971 put out 9 albums, where GN'R put out 5 records in the same amount of time.

I contend that even if GN'R had stayed together, they would not have become the Rolling Stones of the 1990s and beyond; they would've just faded away. It is actually better GN'R broke up when they did as it allowed them to have a mystique ("What could have been") that didn't necessarily translate into reality. It's becoming more and more clear - due to the general public not remembering GN'R outside of Appetite + UYI singles - that GN'R were a flash in the pan, just a late 80s trend - not really primed to become one of the legendary acts like the Stones or Aerosmith.

You're getting yourself psyched for no reason. The diet thing seems like such a weird thing for Ash to say (what, did Beta contact him and say "hey, he's not fat! He's dieting!" That just seems weird. Why would they even respond to the fat thing?) and I'm thinking Axl will look exactly the same the next time we see him.

I think the reason we don't see him much is he legitimately doesn't go out much, and when he does its a combination of no one caring its him or not recognizing him. But like if he did normal stuff like go out to dinner, we'd have a picture by this point. No question. I think he just doesn't leave the house.

He was leaving the house all the time in the 90s and very few, if any pictures were taken of him. He went to Coney Island, to concerts, to bars etc and he just went unnoticed. He even says himself when on downtime, he goes out. Just places he knows the press won't be.

Sorum

Nosaj is a big Axl fan. I can relate to his words whenever he talks about how Axl sounded great in a show he attended recently. He's not a fanatic though. We are all Axl fans but when he fucks things up there's no need to kiss his ass or protect him.

Yeah but saying things like "Axl should BEG Slash to take him back" and whatnot goes a little too far. Has Axl sounded like crap since 2011 with the exception of the last Vegas run? Yeah, he has. But then again he sounded like crap in 2002 yet came back swinging in 2006.

So some of you love Axl because he has no filter and will bash anybody he doesn't like. You even praised him for his homophobic rant against a member if this forum.

But then you whine and get angry anytime somebody else says something negative about Axl.

The double standard is funny to watch.

Pretty much.

Watching them shift their own principles when Axl is involved is priceless.

And I'd go as far as saying that those are not their own principles. I mean, these are fanatics we're talking about. They only know one thing: Praise lord Axl. Common sense and rational thinking must be ignored.

I feel sorry for them, I really do.

It goes the other way as well, some here like to simply bash Axl. Like you. Is there anything you can honestly say you like about Axl?

Izzy Stradlin is the best guitarist of Guns N' Roses - enough said.

Agree on that.

Giving someone credit for their mastery of an instrument is not overrating them. Pointing out when someone makes a dumb statement is not conspiring again them. Though every other poster in this thread agrees that your overrated theory is wrong, it must be my fault.

Okay, I bow to your almighty, infallible, Republican wisdom. Richard Fortus is the best guitarist of our time. Fuck that Slash guy. He's so 80s.

Axl was such a pussy back in the day. Just like Cobain.

Cobain started the feud, though. Axl was doing nothing but promoting and praising Nirvana all the time and Cobain was going around saying how GN'R sucked and made crappy music.