Dr. Who

I think given how sensitive Axl is, Ash's comments probably killed any chance of a reunion ever happening and probably any renewed friendship between Axl and Slash.

I think he's a great player. Not sure if he's a great songwriter, though. In the end, he's just a session musician happy to play other people's music for money.

As for the statement "immensely overrated," not sure who and where are these people immensely overrating him.

The people on this forum mainly who are like cool with him, as opposed to every other guitarist who has been utterly shit on while they're in the band. People on this board seem cool with Fortus and I've seen some say he deserves a promotion etc. I'm not talking about the music world at large just this forum.

People on this board seem cool with him and that makes him "immensely overrated"?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+the+definition+of+overrated%3F

In Guns yeah. I think he's overrated by forumers.

Underrated in Guns, but I've never found his solo work to be anything special.

I would say he's less bloated by his voice

Fat men have higher pitched voices than thin men.

Axl would have beat his ass

How do you figure?

Is there a long line of guys who have had their ass kicked by him to make you come to that conclusion?

Stephanie. Erin. Sucker punched a random photographer at an airport. But a security guard's ankle. Chose not to fight Vince Neil. Got slapped by a fashion designer. Double teamed a drunk guy at the bar with DJ.

Is there evidence somewhere that Axl is a top notch fighter?

Well, Slash has said Axl "gets crazy" when he fights, and he was arrested many many times before being famous for getting into street fights, for a grand total of around 28 arrests. He got crazy to the point that he realized it was dangerous and a bad idea to get in between Axl and Matt one day when it almost got physical. But I guess Slash is lying there too.

I don't understand the last smart ass comment about Slash lying. Nobody is talking about Slash lying, so why bring that up? Weird.

Lol. Lots of people get crazy when they get angry. Doesn't mean they are good fighters.

Miser have you ever been in a fight? Have you ever watched top level boxers or MMA fighters go at it? Did you notice if they started the fight calm, cool and collected or were they going crazy and acting like rabid dogs?

If u are ever in the situation where a fight is about to break out let me give you some advice. If one guy rips his shirt off and is yelling like a mad man and acting like a fool yelling he is going to kill you and the second guy just calmly stands up, puts his beer down and smiles and says "let's do this".....if you have to fight one of those two, 99.85% of the time you should pick the guy acting crazy.

I've got a buddy who suffers from short mans disease and has anger issues. He has been in more fights than the entire rest of our group combined. He also lost most of his fights. He has also been arrested 12-15 times. More than the rest of us combined.

Doesn't mean he is a badass. Means he has anger issues and gets his ass kicked a lot.

People thought Glen Danzig was a badass. Until he actually got into a fight.

There is a reason Axl didn't show up to fight Vince Neil.

But sure. Because Axl is our favorite singer that probably also means he is an absolute badass as well. Dude could probably be MMA champion if he trained for a couple months.

Smh.

Nah man, you're right. He's the biggest pussy in the world and probably couldn't even throw a punch if he tried. Cause he broke up the old band and we're all still bitter about it. Two can play this game.

His voice was weak on some illusions songs. Its week on parts of breakdown, like "if someone really cared".

By 1993 his voice was starting to lose it's rasp. Honestly I don't mind his clean voice though.

Axl sounds fine here, perfectly raspy, and this was recorded Fall '94.

Axl was never as famous as Kanye West is. And Axl was never as much an asshole as Kanye was. He was more of a sonofabitch.

Axl Rose between the years of 1988 through 1994 was just as big, arguably bigger than Kanye West could ever dream of being. If you disagree, check the facts, more people bought albums back then. Music and music stars were more popular back in the 80s and 90s than arguably at anytime in human history. They were on magazines, mtv, and all over the radio. Today MTV barely even plays music, even mtv2 barely plays music. I just firmly beieve the music industry as a whole is nowhere near the level it was 30 years ago. Yes their are still stars, and Kayne is one of those, but 20 million people didn't buy his album, like they did for appetite. So clearly appetite was much more popular with the people.

Honestly I think Taylor Swift had the biggest album last year, and it barely sold a million copies. By comparison that would have been barely a blip on the music scene back then. Which yes illegal downloads do play a role, but even with those, the numbers are still not what they were. Times have changed, music is still relevant any important, it's just to a much smaller degree. Its probably because technology has given people so many different outlets. But whatever the reasosn, times have changed and music and musicians are just not nearly as important to people today.

Thing is, Kanye is famous for being Kanye. He's practically his own brand. Axl was famous as the lead singer of Guns N' Roses.

If anyone in the history of GN'R is closest to Kanye West in terms of personality, it's DJ Ashba.

1980 arrest - assault and petty larceny:

1982 arrest, charges battery, criminal trespass, public intoxication, contributing to the deliquency of a minor, sentence 3 months in county jail

August 1, 1987: During filming of the WTTJ video, Axl went crazy and picked up a shotgun and fired it. Thankfully no one was hurt.

October 1987: While in New York, Axl and Del were in a hotel when someone threatened Del with a bat. Axl picked up a street sign post and challenged him. The cops showed up and arrested Axl.

November 22nd 1987: Arrested in Atlanta for assaulting a security guard, who was beating on the band's friends. Slash mentions this incident in his book.

December 18th 1987: Axl jailed for punching a man who said he looked like Bon Jovi.

December 30th 1987: Axl was arrested and carried off stage at Perkins Palace in Pasadena for assaulting a security guard.

August 4th or 5th 1988: Axl thrown in jail for punching a parking lot attendant who insulted his brother Stuart.

October 10th 1989: Axl arrested at the L.A. Cathouse for jumping into the crowd and beating a security guard who was hassling one of the band's friends. The band was there filming a video for It's So Easy.

Axl would have beat his ass

How do you figure?

Is there a long line of guys who have had their ass kicked by him to make you come to that conclusion?

Stephanie. Erin. Sucker punched a random photographer at an airport. But a security guard's ankle. Chose not to fight Vince Neil. Got slapped by a fashion designer. Double teamed a drunk guy at the bar with DJ.

Is there evidence somewhere that Axl is a top notch fighter?

Well, Slash has said Axl "gets crazy" when he fights, and he was arrested many many times before being famous for getting into street fights, for a grand total of around 28 arrests. He got crazy to the point that he realized it was dangerous and a bad idea to get in between Axl and Matt one day when it almost got physical. But I guess Slash is lying there too.

Axl was never as famous as Kanye West is. And Axl was never as much an asshole as Kanye was. He was more of a sonofabitch.

In the second part he does talk about Slash but I see it as he parralels what he was looking for, someone that was approaching music from the heart, like he felt Paul did?

It's just interesting that he refers to Paul as the guy who introduced Axl to the blues, to emotive guitar playing, which is what lead Axl to seek out and eventually find Slash, and yet Paul would also serve as the major reason Slash departed 8 years later. A little irony there.

I think he's a great player. Not sure if he's a great songwriter, though. In the end, he's just a session musician happy to play other people's music for money.

As for the statement "immensely overrated," not sure who and where are these people immensely overrating him.

The people on this forum mainly who are like cool with him, as opposed to every other guitarist who has been utterly shit on while they're in the band. People on this board seem cool with Fortus and I've seen some say he deserves a promotion etc. I'm not talking about the music world at large just this forum.

You dont need to be a guitar wizard no...knowing what you're talking about helps tho!

So, should I bow down and worship Joe Satriani cause he's good at the instrument?

Songwriting is what counts. I don't give a shit if you're the greatest guitarist who ever lived if you haven't written shit to prove it.

Or is this another one of AxlisOld's "I hate Miser and so does my wife so let's just be contradictory at every fucking turn" horseshit? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

He might not be a great songwriter (yet to be seen) but he is a great player. He has excellent timing, bending intonation, feel, and general musicality. A not so great / average player has an awareness of these things but hasn't really grasped them, or really tried to nail them down (DJ).

I don't want to pull the "I play guitar, so I know better" card as I respect that some guitar players don't do it for some people. For me he ticks all the boxes of what I consider a really good guitar player, your criteria is gonna be different.

It sounds small, and maybe not that impressive (if you don't know what to look for) but I think if you watch him setting up the intro to You're crazy you'll hear a great example of something that sounds effortless, but is actually one of the hardest things to do. A great player for me is the player that does all the "simple" things well, 'timing, bending, knowing when to, and when not to play etc."

Just listen to the guy, he's a fabulous player. I can't believe we're discussing him, DJ, Robin, Tobias? yeah I understood where people were coming from with those guys, but Richard is head and shoulders above them all as a player (not talking about songwriting ability).

And Bucket is head and shoulders above Richard. Which is why they went with him. He's got that x factor as a lead player. Robin has that too, and he doesn't have Richard's chops and is sloppy.

I think the way Richard plays You're Crazy is a very good example of why he should be in Guns. It sounds right. And I know we didn't get a chance to hear what he can bring to the table as a songwriter, but his chorus riff in Better is great.

But see, that's it right there. Richard is good because he plays You're Crazy well. Well, I respect and appreciate more the guy who wrote You're Crazy rather than the guy who just performs it well - that to me is what defines whether a guitarist is good or not. Not whether they can bend strings six ways from Sunday or sing in whistle register or not. That's just theoretical nonsense to me.

Well if songwriting is what counts go fuckin' argue the toss with some fucking songwriters, the guitar was no designed for the sole purpose of writing Beatle songs, dunno if you noticed.

No one cares what you do or dont give a shit about, the question is about a topic, the topic is based on a reality, whats going on in your head in terms of what you do or dont give a shit about is a matter for you and your therapist.

And whats Axlisold and his wifes opinion about you got to do with me?

They're your friends and you're inclined to agree with them against me. Like, I say "the sky is blue!", and AxlisOld says, "No it's not", you who don't really have any horse in the race will jump in and be like "He's right, the sky ain't blue and here's a hundred reasons why!"

The reality is, he's an average guitarist. Or do you think Joe Satriani is great, too? Bumblefoot? All of those guys have gotten praise for their technical skills. Are they the Da Vinci's of the guitar?

If there is one criticism that completely surprised me about Chinese Democracy, it was the mediocrity of Axl's lyrics on that album: ''Sitting in a Chinese Stew; I'll kick your ass like I said that I would''? Not a patch on lyrics such as Estranged and Breakdown.

Axl said he would sit by Slash's amp and write sometimes bc it was motivational to hear his guitar.

When he sat by Bucket's amp these are the lyrics that came to him. Just kinda all over the place and unorganized mess.

Axl just needs to hear Slash's guitar again and you'll hear some proper lyrics

I think Axl's well's run dry lyrically.

What does he have to talk about now? His mansion, pool and how much he loves the Lebeis family?

In 1991, the last time he and Slash wrote something together that's been released, he had a variety of things to talk about. He was on top of the world, went from literally the gutter to the top overnight and had the world at his feet yet was struggling at the same time with said fame and immense personal demons. But now he's 53 years old, semi-retired, in a much better place mentally, materially comfortable...What's he got to say?

You dont need to be a guitar wizard no...knowing what you're talking about helps tho!

So, should I bow down and worship Joe Satriani cause he's good at the instrument?

Songwriting is what counts. I don't give a shit if you're the greatest guitarist who ever lived if you haven't written shit to prove it.

Or is this another one of AxlisOld's "I hate Miser and so does my wife so let's just be contradictory at every fucking turn" horseshit? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

He might not be a great songwriter (yet to be seen) but he is a great player. He has excellent timing, bending intonation, feel, and general musicality. A not so great / average player has an awareness of these things but hasn't really grasped them, or really tried to nail them down (DJ).

I don't want to pull the "I play guitar, so I know better" card as I respect that some guitar players don't do it for some people. For me he ticks all the boxes of what I consider a really good guitar player, your criteria is gonna be different.

It sounds small, and maybe not that impressive (if you don't know what to look for) but I think if you watch him setting up the intro to You're crazy you'll hear a great example of something that sounds effortless, but is actually one of the hardest things to do. A great player for me is the player that does all the "simple" things well, 'timing, bending, knowing when to, and when not to play etc."

Just listen to the guy, he's a fabulous player. I can't believe we're discussing him, DJ, Robin, Tobias? yeah I understood where people were coming from with those guys, but Richard is head and shoulders above them all as a player (not talking about songwriting ability).

And Bucket is head and shoulders above Richard. Which is why they went with him. He's got that x factor as a lead player. Robin has that too, and he doesn't have Richard's chops and is sloppy.

I think the way Richard plays You're Crazy is a very good example of why he should be in Guns. It sounds right. And I know we didn't get a chance to hear what he can bring to the table as a songwriter, but his chorus riff in Better is great.

But see, that's it right there. Richard is good because he plays You're Crazy well. Well, I respect and appreciate more the guy who wrote You're Crazy rather than the guy who just performs it well - that to me is what defines whether a guitarist is good or not. Not whether they can bend strings six ways from Sunday or sing in whistle register or not. That's just theoretical nonsense to me.

Chuck Berry and Keith Richards, they're not really great guitarist, and there's guys who are way more technically proficient at the axe than Jimmy Page - but has say, Joe Satriani really contributed more to music or to the guitar, than Chuck Berry, Keith or Jimmy Page?

It's the same argument for Richard. Richard might have some good technical skill. But if we're setting how well he can cover Slash and Izzy's parts as the bar of what makes him a good guitarist or fit for Guns - that's an incredibly low bar. When he writes a song as good as Welcome to the Jungle, or records a solo as good as TWAT's, let me know.

https://youtu.be/AvNZV1dADkY?t=2m55s

"Coming from Indiana, I used to play with this guitar player named Paul, and I learned about blues and emotionalism and stuff through him, and he was a big Page fanatic. And then I came to L.A. and saw all these people trying to be Eddie Van Halen, and it took five years to find somebody who played more from the heart rather than just trying to be the fastest, and trying to do this and that to be a big rockstar, someone who, like, he'll be very quiet and stuff most of the time and really won't let a lot of himself out until he picks up the guitar - and then his heart and soul seems to pour out through the guitar, and it's just like, I sit down a lot of times at shows, I'll sit down right on the stage right in front of his amp when he (Slash) is doing a solo, because it means so much to me just to hear that."

A disappointing GnR album but a great album in itself.

That's a great way to categorize CD.

Any great way to categorize CD should involve the words "steaming pile of cow dung"

Ok you won't like any of the maybe- speculative- possible one day-new album, be assured. Meanwhile no other ex band members have written, or even played on, anything nearing the riches of "The Blues", "Madagascar", "Sorry", "Twat", "Catcher", or "TIL" since departing.

Sorry is cringeworthy, TIL is downright boring. The Blues, Madagascar, TWAT and Catcher are all potentially stellar songs that were completely ruined by their horrilble overproduction. Their 2002 versions completely blow them out of the water. Nothing about CD sounds organic. Nothing sounds like a bunch of guys in a room making music. I don't like that.

So, when you're talking about potential you may haeve been right. But when you talk about end result, hell no.

There's not one single memorable tune on the album. That the biggest problem.

Would anyone be opposed to a reunion album starting with a 20 minute multi-part suite similar to Yes' "Close to the Edge"?
Think Axl wails and interwoven Slash and Izzy guitars, a very bluesy progressive number that goes through a number of changes.

Don't bother. He still believes that Sorum came up with the notorious UYI drum fill.

Precisely: that damn repetitive tom-tom fill was all Axl. Matt was playing around and hit that fill, and Axl was all "use this fill!" It's stated in interviews.

That fact alone makes me wonder how different UYI would've sounded with Steven. Stevie just doesn't play fills like that, so Axl would never have heard it.

Can you imagine Steven coming up with parts for Estranged? Steven is a great drummer, but he had a limited range. Maybe now he could take a stab at putting drums to a song like that. Matt was the best choice for a more progressive GnR. I know most of the songs on UYI were pretty straight ahead but some of them would have eluded Steven and his bare bones skill set, and the songs would have suffered for it. Anyway! the main point and only important fact is that Steven was completely unable to continue in GnR so the whole what could have been stuff just doesn't hold and water.

Although I have no audio to back me up concerning Estranged, It is well understood Steven wrote all songs for UYI. Sure Matt put his own flare on some songs but Steven wrote most before he got fired. There are demos out there to prove most if it, Back off, Garden, Locomotive, Perfect Crime, Don't Damn Me and Don't cry, ect... ect...

Alan Niven***

Axl spent 1994-2000, the prime of his life, away from the spotlight, purposely avoiding any and all media contact as much as he could. He didn't even want pictures taken of him in private. According to a former friend of his named Brooks, Axl didn't even want anyone to take pictures of him in private around '95, '96, at private parties at his own house because he "had had a camera in his face for ten years." Kanye's in his 30s and whoring the spotlight as much as he can; We didn't see much of Axl between the ages of 31 and 39.

Listen to the second Dead Daisies album and listen to his lead parts and THEN come back and tell us he's nothing special.

I suppose people like Slash, Bowie or Trent Reznor must be tone-deaf for thinking he's special too.

Slash - music legend. Bowie - music legend. Reznor - music legend. All like Fortus.

Dude on internet that doesn't play instrument thinks nothing special. Fortus must suck.

Seems legit.

It's called having an opinion. Sorry I forgot I'm not allowed to have one cause you said so.

The problem is Miser you are talking about the specifics of music and/or the playing of a musical instrument and the styles therein without very much knowledge of understanding of that stuff...and in some instances with people who are quite profficient with said instrument by all accounts (meaning Axlisold), it's sort of like the difference between a half baked opinion and knowing what you are talking about.

I know this because I fall into your category too I can say very broad sweeping general things about music and musical styles and sounds but I'm not gonna get into guitar specifics with someone like Axlisold because he has the ability to probably make me look a cunt when discussing such things, cuz he knows what he's talking about and i don't

But I don't think one needs to be a guitar wiz to have their ears determine if they think someone is good or not.

Take Bumblefoot. He's an amazingly skilled guitarist by technical and guitar player accounts. Some of the best guitarists in the world like Joe Satriani have spoken of his talent. Yet, just because someone is either technically good, or because their "more well-informed peers" praise them, that doesn't mean they're necessarily objectively good or that I have to like them. With Fortus it's similar. Is he an okay guitarist? Yeah, sure, makes for a nice rhythm player. But I think because of the horrible quality of some of the post-1996 guitarists like Robin Finck or Ashba, Richard's greatness is exaggerated. I don't care that Slash praised Fortus, because Slash also thinks Fergie is a great artist and thought Eric Dover was a good enough singer to cut a record with. Even musicians' sentiments are fallible, even if they technically "know more" than me. I think Fortus is good at being what he is: An Izzy look-alike and a session player. But not a great guitarist overall.

Fortus replaced Tobias who replaced Gilby who replaced Izzy. He's so far removed from the original band that there's no trauma associated to him; if anything he was an improvement.

But then, why was there no trauma with Bumble or Ashba? Both of those guys were pretty far removed from the original band, and Bumble is objectively a good player too, even if I dislike him and his music as well.

It at least invalidates the argument that Axl ceased singing on July 17th 1993 and didn't sing at all for the next 4 years.

There's been a lot of contradictory statements about Axl's activity at that time, like Slash saying in 1996 they were working on mostly Axl's material - then years later claiming Axl never brought any ideas to the table post 1993.

That's not what I was talking about though, is it?

I said that Slash (and IIRC others) said they didn't witness Axl sing after their last show in 93, I didn't say Slash or anybody else claimed Axl did not sing a note post 93.

Think of that Brain/Bryan Mantia podcast where he said he hadn't witnessed Axl sing until that Rock In Rio show...come on now Miser.

And yet we have evidence that the vox to CD were mostly done between '99 and 2002...When Brian was in the band.

Just because they didn't see Axl singing doesn't mean he couldn't have laid down parts separately or done his own demos of singing etc.

It became impossible for the guys to deal with axlAxl. They wanted to move forward. Axl preferred to hang out with his lawyers and not make music. At all. I'm sure it was very hard for Slash and Duff to leave but they had to. Axl would end up driving them insane with his lack of work and diva behavior. A solo album by Axl would have solved everything.

Indeed.

Let's not forget, Slash (and the other guys, if I recall correctly) didn't witness Axl sing a damn thing since their last gig together in 93 until they respectively quit or were fired, 3-4 years later.

Slash and Axl, '96.

Yeah, a song with them both on it- doesn't equate to the two of them in the same studio at the same time laying down their parts together does it?

Even if they did, that one example somehow validates the argument?

It at least invalidates the argument that Axl ceased singing on July 17th 1993 and didn't sing at all for the next 4 years.

There's been a lot of contradictory statements about Axl's activity at that time, like Slash saying in 1996 they were working on mostly Axl's material - then years later claiming Axl never brought any ideas to the table post 1993.

It became impossible for the guys to deal with axlAxl. They wanted to move forward. Axl preferred to hang out with his lawyers and not make music. At all.

It became impossible for the guys to deal with axlAxl. They wanted to move forward. Axl preferred to hang out with his lawyers and not make music. At all. I'm sure it was very hard for Slash and Duff to leave but they had to. Axl would end up driving them insane with his lack of work and diva behavior. A solo album by Axl would have solved everything.

Indeed.

Let's not forget, Slash (and the other guys, if I recall correctly) didn't witness Axl sing a damn thing since their last gig together in 93 until they respectively quit or were fired, 3-4 years later.

Slash and Axl, '96.

Shut. The. Fuck. Up. Steven.

So we - fans - can share our opinion. But a guy who was actually in the band isn't allowed to talk about it?

Steven's mouth has a habit of fucking shit up. Axl was all set to come to the HoF until Steven had to go on his "hacks n' scabs" rant.