GoodOlJohnnyK

Out of curiosity - how do we know this is confirmed? I'm not as up to date on the ever-evolving list of what's out there, what's changed, etc. I just heard the cellphone clip recently and couldn't pick apart any vocals. Also, when was it listed as a set alternate?

For the life of me, I can’t understand why anyone thinks The General is coming up next, and I’m even more confused as to why everyone wants it so bad - there is so little that can be heard in the cellphone clip. Stylistically, it doesn’t sound that much different from State of Grace.

Oh for sure! I totally agree, and I know a lot of these shred guys *hate* guys like Kurt Cobain because he completely delegitimized anything they ever tried to be. For another great example of this, check the comments section of any portion of It Might Get Loud on YouTube. It features Jimmy Page, Jack White, and The Edge from U2 playing guitar. And guitar shredders *hated* the fact that Edge was there, because he doesn’t shred at *all.* His approach to guitar is so unorthodox, using not only his guitar, but a slew of effects to create not only riffs but entire sonic landscapes. The guitar traditionalists, of course, hated it. They spent their lives playing a thousand notes a second, while Edge is making beautiful music with only four notes on two strings. One significant note though: guys like Cobain and Neil Young aren’t technically accomplished, but they shine with melody and feel and emotion. Slash does too, but it’s important to note that he *is* very technically proficient. Slash isn’t sloppy, despite what the folks in the concert threads might have you believe. Jimmy Page is sloppy. Joe Perry is sloppy. Slash plays with that loose *feel*, but it’s very intentional and fluid. He’s got blazing speed too, but his tastes run towards blues and latin music, while most shredders seem to idolize neoclassical guitarists for some reason. That said, guys like Slash and Kirk Hammett *really* chap guitar nerds’ asses because the world at large gives them credit for being shredders - which they are, by the way - but they’re not as acrobatic as say, a Nuno Bettencourt. So they try to denigrate Slash and Kirk because, while they were busy studying modal theory and practicing sweep picking, Slash and Kirk had their attention on what really matters in rock: attitude and soul. If you’ve ever played American football, you’ve probably been on a team with or played against a wide receiver who was fast as shit, could blaze by you, but could not catch a ball or run a route to save his life. He had amazing straight line speed, but couldn’t do what *actually mattered* in a game. That’s what these shred types remind me of. They don’t understand why their guitar athleticism isn’t enough. They’re putting out flashy but insubstantial shit like Rise for an audience of a few thousand, while Slash and Kirk are writing songs that move billions of people with songs like Sweet Child O’ Mine and Enter Sandman.

I agree. I actually think a deluxe remastered Chinese Democracy might do better than the initial album release, from a press perspective. Here’s a secret we all share on these Guns N’ Roses fan forums with regards to Chinese Democracy: it’s actually pretty good! It just has one fatal flaw: it was the single most mythical unreleased album in rock n’ roll history outside of the Beach Boys’ Smile. There’s no *way* it could have lived up to its expectations. For an album that took 13-14 years to make, an album shrouded in so much secrecy and so many rumors, it needed to be…well, it needed to be Rumours, by Fleetwood Mac. In other words, it needed to be an all-time classic. And it wasn’t. It sounded dated in parts, and it came out at a time when rock was at its most irrelevant, when hip hop reigned supreme and the throwback resurgence of 80s style hard rock and metal bands was still in its infancy. It sounded like yesterday’s fashion: an ode to 90s electronic and industrial styles in an era where that was no longer edgy or interesting. It just limped out of the gate with no promotion, no hype, nothing but a bizarre silence as the whole world collectively shrugged and moved on. It could have never lived up to the expectations that chained it. But free of those chains? Free of those expectations, when we already know what it is? It’s pretty good. Not as good as Appetite or Use Your Illusion, but a surprisingly tuneful and aggressive experiment. A fascinating document into the mind of a recluse who had once taunted the world, conquered it, and then locked himself away in it after he’d chased away anyone who had ever loved him. And that’s something that could actually get some good press and get some streams/vinyl sales: a critical reevaluation of Chinese Democracy in major publications, 20 years free from the weight of its own mystery. A new album isn’t supposed to sound dated, but a remaster doesn’t have that problem: the music, by definition, comes from another era, and the modern critical evaluation of it removes it from its place in time and listens to it with fresh ears, disregarding what’s cool or trending today. That’s an evaluation that I think Chinese Democracy would stand up quite well to. It would reframe the album not as the classic it should have been, not as the joke it was eventually expected to be, but finally as a fascinatingly adventurous album from a tortured artist who could never quite make anyone understand him.

Your argument doesn’t make much sense. You say I can’t discredit Exteme’s music, because Richard hasn’t put out anything popular. Richard’s output is completely irrelevant here - I’m not discrediting Extreme’s music because of him, I’m discrediting their music because it’s not any good. I never gave it any credit to begin with. Then you say Nuno has outsold Richard, which begs the question of what sales has to do with this. They’re not discussing who makes more popular music. They’re discussing whether or not Slash has the prowess to play in Rihanna’s band - a job they’ve both done. So Nuno has outsold Richard - that means his opinion matters more? That’s nonsense. Then you say “more people know who Nuno is than Richard.” In Japan, I suppose. Anywhere else? Barely. The fact is, neither of them are getting recognized anywhere outside of a Guitar Center these days. Nuno Bettencourt was onstage at the Super Bowl half time show and if you blinked, you missed him in the background. He’s not a celebrity anywhere outside of guitar magazines and niche heavy metal blogs that still report on 1980s pop metal. And by the way, those people who read guitar magazines and are in to 1980s metal? If they still care about what Extreme is up to in 2023, then they likely still care about what Guns N’ Roses is up to in 2023. So they might even know Richard - those are some small circles. But it’s irrelevant because, just as in the last paragraph, the metrics you choose to rate Nuno’s argument don’t make sense. So I ask you: what the hell does Nuno Bettencourt’s non-existent fame have to do with him being wrong in his dispute with Richard?! Lastly, you close with “no one is impressed with who can or can’t play a lip synching pop artist’s shitty music.” But that’s exactly what the argument is: Nuno is impressed! He’s impressed with himself, and he wants everyone else to be. That’s why he chose Slash to put down: he knows the world recognizes Slash as being an internationally recognized Guitar God who is a household name and he’s saying “you see how impressive I am? This job I’m doing now? Even the great Slash couldn’t do it. That’s how good I am. Isn’t that impressive?” I’m sorry, but I honestly can’t see the other side at all on this one. Not only is Nuno wrong that Slash couldn’t do it, he comes off as an arrogant asshole, and his attack on Richard is not only bizarre, out of line, and dick behavior.

I'll take this any day over "Guns N' Roses comes up when I search for The General in Spotify! SPOTIFY HAS THE ALBUM AND IT WILL BE UPLOADED ANY DAY NOW! Quick - let's call customer support to see if those guys making $20/hr. know when the new Guns N' Roses album will appear online!" That was simultaneously my favorite and least favorite time ever to come on these message boards. What a time to be alive.

Which riff is Richard's? The "no one ever told me..." line? Or the "now I know you better..." line?

Re: point 2: Axl himself referred to Hard Skool as Jackie Chan in 2009 (or 2008), so that is fairly plausible. I agree. A lot of bands do this as well. Lars Ulrich frequently refers to Metallica songs, particularly newer ones, by their demo titles.

More Than Words is considered a late classic of the hair band era, just before grunge came through and wiped it away. These days, you can hear it at karaoke nights and just about every college acapella group gives it a try. Get The Funk Out was a minor hit at the time, but it was always incredibly cheesy and lame. The rest of those songs, the overwhelming majority of people have never heard and don't care about. It's irrelevant. Furthermore, no one's debating who wrote better songs (by the way, I count only *one* song that Nuno Bettencourt should boast of writing, and that's More Than Words). It's a debate over chops, and who could handle the Rihanna gig. Richard Fortus has handled the Rihanna gig, so that's not even a debate. And if you don't think he has chops, you're not paying attention. This is what Nuno Bettencourt is up to now, by the way: 'Keep rock and roll alive,' and 'the winner is rock 'n' roll,' are two of the cringiest, most embarrassing things I've ever read. Grow the fuck up. If you're over the age of, say, 25 and you're still talking about "rock n' roll forever," or shouting things like "rock ain't dead," or worrying over young people not listening to the same boring guitar shredders that they used to, then you're a loser. You're going to start an 'initiative to keep rock n' roll alive?' Maybe start by writing a song that people actually like to listen to. It's that simple. By the way - "rock n' roll" is doing just fine. Many of Extreme's contemporaries like Metallica, The Foo Fighters, The Red Hot Chili Peppers, Guns N' Roses, Pearl Jam, U2, Green Day, etc. are all selling out arenas and stadiums. It's just that no one gives a shit about 80s butt rock shredders like Extreme anymore, because that shit is boring and always has been.

No, not at all. Pele liked State of Grace, and I don’t. *hides*

I believe Absurd was released after the 3rd show of the 2021 NA summer tour, in early August. Hard Skool came I think a month or so later.

I really hope you're right. I just really doubt it. I also wonder how much interest Axl even has left in recording rock music. He seems to enjoy performing the songs he already has, but when he's asked about it, he often points out that he likes listening to movie soundtracks and things of that nature. If he has any creative muse left, I wouldn't be surprised if it's more in that direction than anywhere else.

I hate to say this, but I think we're pretty far apart. I used to think that the Village Leaks didn't represent the entirety of the vault - and I still don't, I guess. I'm sure there are earlier versions of, say, Madagascar and Prostitute and all of the other songs that made it on to Chinese Democracy. But in terms of 'new' music? Yeah, I think the vaults are what they've got. Perhaps, Atlas, SoG, and maybe The General. After Absurd got leaked, that was one. Hard Skool being leaked was two. Now that it looks like Perhaps is up next, it's just too much smoke for me to not call it fire. I hope I'm wrong.

Yeah I hear you - I guess where we differ is that I believe that all of the songs that were complete have been released or are going to be. Catcher, TWAT, Chinese, Riad, Better, etc. all have demos that leaked - and they were all included on Chinese. Of the other demos, it just sounds like Hard Skool, Absurd, Perhaps, State of Grace, and Atlas Shrugged are the only completed ones with vocals. *Possibly* The General as well - some state they can hear vocals in the cellphone clip but I certainly can't. Also I'm leaving open the possibility that Zodiac has vocals, simply because it's listed on CD#2 as "(no vox)" which implies that a version with vocals exists (though it's also possible that it's like Quicksong - which has a scratch melody but no lyrics). I just don't buy that there's another album in the can.

I'd certainly heard *about* it - I just never heard the cell phone recording until a few weeks ago. A poster here was kind enough to forward it to me (thanks again!). I didn't hear a whole lot there. There were moments where I was like 'wait - is that an Axl vocal or just some ambient background noise?' I was a bit disappointed, because the way people talk about it like it's a sure thing, I figured there'd be more to hear.

Sure, I suppose - though I guess we're speaking in personal metrics. If Axl's telling me Tonto is complete, he just has to put a melody, lyrics, and vocals to it, then he might consider it complete, but I sure don't. Sometimes this is true even within a band. Adam Clayton says in U2's biography 'U2 By U2' that often Bono will present him with a very rough melody over some chords and think he's playing Adam a new single - because he can hear how it's going to go in head head, whereas Adam Clayton simply hears some chords and a melody that need a lot of work before they can be considered a song, let alone the band's next single. Out of curiosity though - if it's not lack of material, or quality material, what do you think the reason is that Axl is so guarded of his music?

I don't know if the metric is that they have to be played and/or released, but I'm not counting anything as more than an idea unless I hear Axl on it. Especially after the numerous reports that for so long it was just the band going into the studio and jamming on ideas without any input from Axl. Zodiac we know from the Village Leaks, but have you heard it with vocals? Have you heard any piece of Soul Monster or Seven? I'm just curious why you consider them the Big Guns. Is it just based off their titles/descriptions in previous interviews? I'm not being snarky - I'm legitimately asking to make sure I haven't missed any leaks (I've only heard what people are calling The General about a week or two ago).

I think you're on the money. Again, language can be tricky - especially with this band (no trickery my ass!). Slash calls some new songs 'epic' and people assume he means it's a Coma/TWAT-esque song, when in reality he could just be using 'epic' as a synonym for 'cool,' as people often do. A crew member says a new song is dropping any day now and people assume that means within the week, when in reality it could be weeks and weeks. It's like when someone says something is coming "soon." There's no definition on the timeline. Similarly - when Axl/others involved say they have vaults worth of songs they've worked on, I believe them! I just think their definition of 'song' is different than mine. Brain, Buckethead, Robin Finck, Stinson, Dizzy, Fortus, Tobias, Bumblefoot, DJ Ashba, Frank, Pitman, Shaquille O'Neal, James Earl Jones, Fuckface Johnson, and whoever else has been in the band over the last 27 years have probably worked up dozens if not hundreds of pieces of music - complete with multiple sections. And I'm sure the band counts those as songs. But until Axl touches them or lays something down on them, they're not completed songs to me. They're ideas. My personal favorite of the Village Leaks is an idea called Tonto. Seems ready to go to me. It's energetic, aggressive, and perfect for the band. But, as far as I can tell, Axl hasn't given it a thought because there's no evidence to suggest he has. Perhaps, State of Grace, and Atlas Shrugged are songs we know they have in the tank. I've heard rumors of The General, but I've been sent a clip of it and it doesn't sound clear enough to hear anything outside of a basic tempo and vibe. It just seems to me that Axl put in some work in the mid 2000s and finished the best of what he had - and we got Chinese Democracy. I'm just having a hard time believing there's much more. I commend your brevity. While I was typing my long-winded response, you summed up everything I was trying to say in just a sentence.

I don't see how 'no explanation is needed.' If the band has vaults of music ready to go, why not release them? Absurd got a mostly terrible reception (though I quite like it) but that didn't stop Axl from putting out Hard Skool and playing them both live every night. All these plans - multiple albums! - and they're suddenly just gone? I just think there's not much left. I really think the process of having Chinese Democracy wrested from him and released to a very tepid reaction killed any excitement Axl had for creating anything new. His attitude is probably "why bother? Let's just release the shit we have left to drum up some ticket sales while we still can." Wait, "songs like Soul Monster"? How do we know Soul Monster is good? Has *anyone* heard it? How is it already better than Scraped?

Yet there’s no great explanation for why it never happened.

It’s also possible that a lot of the solos were comped in the studio. So Axl and the producer could have listened to a bunch of takes of Robin doing different solos and taking a lick from this take, a lick from that, and editing them together in the studio. Metallica records their solos this way - Kirk improvs over the solo section a few times and then Lars and Greg Fidelman compile their favorite parts into one solo. It could explain why some of Robin’s parts sound choppy or as if he has interesting perspective on timing. After all, Chinese Democracy is full of some very choppy edits on Axl’s vocals as well, so it wouldn’t surprise me. Edited to add: Buckethead’s solo on TWAT is also comped, seeing as how licks were added in between the demos and the final product.

What’s ironic is that, again contrary to Nuno’s point of view, I would argue that someone like The Edge from U2 is a vastly better and more influential guitarist, and he’s never shredded a day in his life. It’s not about technical skills, and it never was.

If they leave, they’re not selling out stadiums or arenas either. All three are necessary to the success of this thing (though Axl and Slash together onstage is the real moneymaker).

By “melodic significance” I think he just means it’s not something like the TWAT solo, which is an epic that’s been structured in a certain way and to stray from it too much would be jarring. I actually like Slash’s take on the Better solo. That descending lick he does is beautiful. Finck’s solo, of course, is beautiful as well.

There’s nothing more boring than a guitarist who thinks that technical proficiency means greatness. Not that anyone cares but I received an offer to audition for a major pop act when I was fresh out of college in 2010, (again, this is actually irrelevant because this shouldn’t matter). I was in my early 20s at the time. I can say that, as hard as I practiced for the gig, the hardest part wasn’t the music - it was competing against guitarists who could do absolutely amazing things on guitar and, more importantly, look cool doing it. I was a recent college grad with no money for cool rock star clothing, so I showed up in what I thought would be a decent replacement: some ripped up jeans and a white t-shirt. A lot of the other folks there looked like extras from Sons of Anarchy, while others looked right off of a runway. Some could play circles around me, others I actually thought I was “better” then. But all of the ones who moved on had one thing I didn’t at the time - showmanship. I did my best “rock star” but I fell short. The purpose of this story is to poke holes in Nuno’s premise that a gig like that requires a level of musicianship unattainable to a good guitarist: that’s not necessarily true. Fortus, for example, could have probably sleepwalked through his Rihanna gig. Showmanship plays a *big* part in it. And those touring guitarists often are amazing because that tends to be who gets invited to and selected for those gigs. You have to have chops. But you often don’t use them. Nuno Bettencourt can shred up and down the neck at an incredible rate of speed, playing clean, fluid licks with exceptional technique.… …and no one fucking cares. Because the point is that, until you write something worth a damn, all the fast licks and sweep picking and tapping don’t mean a damn thing. The press that Nuno is getting for the Rise solo dubbing him the new Eddie Van Halen is so annoying and it seems to have gone to his head. First of all, it’s only guitar-centric media that acts this way. No one outside of hard rock or guitar nerd culture cares. Second of all, Eddie Van Halen changed guitar playing forever not just through his incredible technical ability but also his sense of melody and songwriting. So many of Eddie’s solos weren’t actually that difficult (think Ain’t Talkin’ Bout Love or Everybody Wants Some) - but damn were they tuneful and memorable! The Rise solo is…impressive, I guess? But the song sucks, so who cares? There are plenty of songs with flashy guitar playing - why has this one been falsely propped up as some sort of spiritual successor to Eruption? Third of all, these days technical ability is overrated because as good as Nuno Bettencourt or Slash are, there’s always gonna be some dude on Instagram who can play faster, cleaner, and more complex licks, two hand tapping while diving the whammy bar with his dick. So at that point, you have to move on to songwriting chops. Nuno wrote “More Than Words,” which is a classic song that people know and remember. That’s incredible. It’s very hard to do. But Slash wrote Sweet Child O’ Mine, the November Rain solos, Welcome to the Jungle, Paradise City, Nightrain, Brownstone, the guitar melodies and solos on Estranged, the list goes on. In a competition over who is more important to rock history, it’s not even debatable. And in terms of who could handle the Rihanna gig? Slash would walk in with his top hat and the musical director would fire Nuno Bettencourt before Slash was done plugging in his guitar. Because while Nuno’s busy whipping his hair around, Slash is an icon of rock n’ roll and his *look alone* would nail the gig. There’s no musical style that Nuno performs on those Rihanna songs that Slash couldn’t do - the idea that Slash couldn’t handle switching between reggae and dance pop is particularly absurd - and anything he does that is outside of Slash’s repertoire, like sweep picking, isn’t necessary for the gig. Nuno’s a dickhead because all of his false modesty (“Slash is a hero of mine!”) doesn’t make sense when the clear premise of what he was saying was “this gig is so fucking tough that even the best guitarists like Slash can’t do it - but I can! I’m more than rock n’ roll, I’m a *real* musician!” Only to walk it back like a little bitch once Fortus disagreed (and disagreed incredibly respectfully). For him to then knock Fortus makes even less sense. “I’ve never heard of you outside of the Rihanna camp and as a replacement player in Guns N’ Roses.” Well no one knows Nuno Bettencourt outside of Extreme. And no one under, say 42 knows Nuno Bettencourt at all except for maybe some older shredders working on their skills at your local Guitar Center. Furthermore, Fortus has played THE EXACT SAME GIG! Before Nuno! The amount of nerve to then turn around and slam the guy who just did your exact gig, and then try to big time him by saying you’ve never heard of him, when Nuno himself hasn’t been relevant since 1991 is staggering. So on the one hand, he’s talking some bullshit about Slash. Then he tries to walk it back and say he’d never do such a thing and deflects and tries to turn it on Fortus. So he’s talking out of both sides of his mouth and it’s all bullshit. Sounds like Double Talkin’ Jive to me. I wish Axl would let this home fuck have it on stage.