GoodOlJohnnyK

I’m concerned about his technique. When he hits the “freed of all the chains” line, he’s *pushing* his throat in a way that’s not healthy. It’s not the same technique he’s used in the past. Edited to add: Madagascar is one of my favorites on CD, but never one of my favorites live, so I don’t often listen to YouTube clips of it. Has Fortus always played the solo like this? It’s fantastic.

Yeah - I was following along with this thread without listening to the streams. After reading the thread, I was so excited to check out the YouTube vids of Axl’s tour de force performance. It was a big letdown. He sounds like he sounded on all the “decent” shows this year, which is a very low bar. Not even close to 2016. I’d say not even as good as the better 2021 shows - Indianapolis, for one.

He’s probably calling an audible. Saw something in the defense he didn’t like.

Boy, I’d sure love to disagree with you. But I can’t.

You can look at it the other way around. They could release the greatest album they've ever written, but the majority of people would say it's average because in their minds, Appetite is the only option for 'Best Guns Album.' For some reason we as a society have decided that it's impossible for artists to release their best work later in life, which is a shame. Slash is a good example - you say he hasn't written any memorable leads since Anastasia. I don't like Myles Kennedy, so I haven't listened to any of Slash's recent work, but his *live* work is thrilling to me, even today. A lot of people complain about it, but I find it exhilarating. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

I hear you, understood. Though to me, it's a little bit of splitting hairs at this point. Guns N' Roses in some way, shape, or form, has been working on the follow up to the Use Your Illusion albums since the mid-90s. Edited to add: And if we don't look at it that way, I bet the record company sure does - they were funding those early sessions. I think it's important to note that Slash was pretty pissed and disgusted by that point in time. He might have seen it that way, but I guarantee you Axl didn't. I think that was just Slash's anger talking.

This is a problem of Axl's own making. The label said they tried to get him to promote the album, and he wouldn't take their calls. Likely because he was angry that they force released the album. Why did they force release it? Because it took 15 years and they were tired of it! I can't fault them for that. I just can't put aside my bullshit detector for this one. Hell, the Dr. Pepper "mess" was the fault of his own lawyers. Axl himself said it was a non-issue. The Best Buy deal was actually far more profitable for him than it would have been otherwise! Best Buy took a loss on that one, not Axl! They were selling the album on *clearance* before long because, by 2008, no one cared. Yeah...but again, doesn't that point to Axl? At a certain point, if everyone he came into contact with was the problem...don't you think that maybe he was the problem? All those musicians and producers were incompetent? Axl getting 'fed up' is rich - I'm sure there were more than a few folks fed up with him. I can only imagine jamming for hours in a rehearsal space, coming up with riffs and song structures for a guy who rarely showed up and, when he did, never sang. Though I'm sure the paycheck made it easier to deal with. Now *this* is where I agree with you. I actually think the tepid reaction to Chinese Democracy really killed a lot of his drive. If Chinese Democracy came out and was hailed as a success, I have no doubt that the two follow up albums would have already been released, if not even more 'newer' material. I think the fact that he spent 15 years on an album and the world went 'meh' was probably the most devastating blow of all. After all, this is a guy who says he mainly listens to movie scores these days, right? I'm sure he'd rather be doing something like that. So I get why he *doesn't* want to create. I just refuse to feel sorry for him for how Chinese Democracy went down. Fair enough - though early sessions with Slash and Duff and Tobias began in the mid-90s, no? So wouldn't it be 13 years? And still - 10 years of mystery is an awful long time.

On the one hand, I completely agree with you: anyone expecting Guns N' Roses to release new music is likely to be wildly disappointed and would probably be better off just considering the band a touring-only entity, even if they've never explicitly said that. I guess I'm just confused at the shift in tone between when the hype is building and when the inevitable let down occurs. When this forum is excited and certain that new music is coming, and everybody's writing to Spotify customer support about their algorithm, and we're talking about The General and Seven and Thyme as if they're things we can accurately evaluate, that's when I grouch like myself usually pours cold water on the whole thing and tells everyone it ain't happening. Hell, in a prior thread about Perhaps, I showed some frustration at those who were complaining that it wasn't released yet and said 'Jesus Christ...' and almost uniformly I was met with "stop being so negative - just let us be excited!" Then, when a single doesn't drop the day everyone expects it to, it's "well you should never be excited. This band doesn't release much new music." I'm having a hard time reconciling the two positions. It's okay to buy into the hype...but not to be disappointed by it? I also agree that there are many bands who simply stop creating while continuing to tour. Billy Joel is the example I've used a thousand times as being the case most similar to Axl in my opinion: he loves performing but is very open about the fact that he doesn't want to write songs anymore. I don't begrudge him that, and I don't begrudge Axl that, if that's how he feels. But, just as there are plenty of artists who have quit touring, there are plenty of bands on Guns N' Roses' level, age group, and older who are still at it and producing new material: Metallica, U2, The Red Hot Chili Peppers, Pearl Jam, Green Day, The Foo Fighters, Bon Jovi, even older bands like AC/DC, Bruce Springsteen, Iron Maiden, and even The Rolling Stones have been far more prolific than Guns N' Roses have in the span since Chinese Democracy. But, of course - those bands aren't Guns N' Roses and so it's irrelevant, right? I'd say so. But I'd also say that the bands that simply stopped producing material aren't Guns N' Roses and so the fact that 'a lot of bands stop releasing new music' is equally as irrelevant. The fact is that this band has captured our fascination for a few reasons: 1.) The songs they *have* written and released are, frankly, great. Even the Chinese Democracy songs, while not up to the standard of their prior work, are still damn good. This is a good rock band. 2.) The mythology around Chinese Democracy is not something that's common in rock n' roll at all. The only other two albums that come close to holding that amount of mystery are The Beach Boys' Smile and Dr. Dre's Detox, and I'd argue that Chinese Democracy was more mythical than either of those. And it's not just the album that was released - it was all the sessions and unreleased material as well. After all, it took some 15 years to release. And it's not something that was completely media driven - Axl himself, and many other major players involved in the recording, contributed to the myth. Suddenly there were *two* or *three* albums of material ready to go. The song you've borrowed your online handle from has been described as one of the 'meanest' things he's ever sang - by Axl himself! Why would fans *not* want to hear that? 3.) Slash and Duff rejoining the band is something no one thought would ever happen - hence the 'not in this lifetime' joke. With their rejoining, it's only human nature to expect that the team that was able to write so many classic songs would simply...want to continue doing so. And, by the way, Slash has specifically said that there is new music on the way. And I understand that there will, eventually, be Perhaps and maybe even another single after it. But all that does is show that the band *does* intend to release something...it's just obviously disappointing to the fanbase how they choose to do so. And isn't that what a message board is for? To discuss these things? It's no different than the setlist. I could easily say "stop complaining about the setlist - they're obviously doing just fine with it!" But we're not talking about their financial prospects. Everyone is talking about their personal level of satisfaction with the band's output. No one's unraveling, we're just voicing our discontent. Which, again, seems to annoy some people for some reason when it's done in certain ways. It's just...frustrating. Oh chill out, dude. You haven't contributed at all to any conversation. You came out of the gate swinging and now you're still picking a fight. Get on topic.

Thank you! The euphoria I feel that he’s gone is equal to the simultaneous release of 4 Chinese Democracy sequel albums. Never thought it would happen.

I can only imagine the forums if this actually happened. Slash: “So Axl sent me a bunch of songs in the fall of 2020 while we were locked down and asked if I could come out to Malibu to record some guitars for them, and…” MyGNRForum: “A bunch? Slash said a bunch. There can be up to 100 bananas in a bunch. That’s 100 songs. Minus Absurd, Hard Skool, and Perhaps, that means Slash worked on 97 more songs! They’re releasing the vault! I think The General comes out next month and then P.R.L.!”

I thought about pulling the trigger, but my Commanders have a preseason game tomorrow night.

Agreed, I think Spotify and all streaming services should pay more. Hell, I’m on Spotify myself (I’ve earned enough for not one but two Starbucks coffees). Though, from the little I’ve read about this, it seems a lot of the issue comes from the record labels, no? Aren’t they keeping a sizable cut of the streaming revenues? It’s not a perfect system, but it’s one that works for now. I still have my old CD collection because I’m too nostalgic to throw it out, but it’s collecting dust in my laundry room closet. I will say the passengers in my car, and everyone else on the road, is grateful that I’m no longer flipping through my CD book trying to find a different album while I’m on the highway.

I pay for a monthly Spotify Premium and Apple Music account. My guess is you think that’s not good enough? Practicality wins for me. I’ve discovered more artists that way, and spent money on their concerts than I would have if I’d have had to convince myself to take a chance on buying a CD. More importantly, I like having my entire music collection right here on my phone. Works for me. Works for them, too, by the way. That’s why they’re releasing Perhaps and why they released Absurd and Hard Skool - as promotional tools to promote the tour. See, up until 2016 I never got to see them live. So the prospect of seeing them in Washington DC was amazing - I gladly shelled out money to hear all my favorites. Jungle, Nightrain, Civil War. Fantastic show. Axl sounded great. Moved great. Band was on their game. Loved every second of it. In 2021, they dropped Absurd. It intrigued me enough to think new things were coming and I grabbed a ticket to the Baltimore show. They dropped Hard Skool and debuted at the show and, despite Axl’s lackluster voice, I still had a good time at the show - though certainly not as good as I did in 2016. But two years after *that*, I don’t really have a reason to buy a ticket. Bad Obsession and Pretty Tied Up are awesome, but I’m not gonna drive to Hershey for them. But if there was new material? Perhaps and one or two others? With the idea that there would be more on the way? I might! New music benefits them. It can’t hurt.

Oh I say this all the time. I just don’t think he feels creative anymore. The muse has left him, in my opinion. He clearly still loves performing and looks like he’s having a great time playing the hits. But I don’t think he’s too interested in sitting down with the band and starting from scratch. Eh, I think he’s to blame for most of that shitstorm, as stated in the posts preceding this one.

Honestly that’s a big part of it. Let’s get Perhaps, Atlas, and State of Grace out of the way so we can either get to something new or, at worst, unheard.

It’s the oddest thing. I don’t even *like* Perhaps. I’ve been very vocal about that. Yet I realllly want it to be released tomorrow.

Yup. It kind of reminds me of when people blame Bob Rock for Metallica moving away from thrash on The Black Album. He didn’t write the songs, he just tried to make them sound good. He didn’t show up and tell James and Lars what to do - he just did what they asked him to: produce a great sounding album with a solid low end and groove. The songs, however, were theirs. The direction was theirs. If they weren’t happy with the final product, they wouldn’t have worked with him for the next 13 years. The same goes for Axl. He’s notoriously one of the most controlling, demanding, volatile rock stars of all time…but *Beta* tells him what to do? It doesn’t line up. I do have some sympathy for him, though, because Beta and Fernando - in addition to being his employees - are also his friends and makeshift little family. He seems to have genuine love for them, which probably makes it hard for *Axl* to be hard on *them.* If we think about it, he probably enables them just as much as they enable him.

Didn’t the label cut Axl off after a while? I can’t recall exactly, but I seem to remember them pulling their funding at a certain point. I think Merck’s comments were in reference to Axl having to tour to earn the income to fund the last few years of CD.

Certainly not. I understand wanting them to have your desired interests at heart, but you have to let the people you hire do the job you hired them for. I want my accountant to get me a fat return every year, but I don’t tell him how to calculate the numbers. I want my lawyer to protect my legal interests, but I don’t tell him which argument to make. I want my personal trainer to get me nice and ripped, but I don’t tell him “oh and by the way, I don’t like weight lifting, so find another way.” As much as I hate to say it, this might be as good as it gets! TB enables Axl’s behavior…but they remain employed, the band is a regularly touring entity, everyone seems to be generally happy (except for fans hoping for new music). Anybody who challenged Axl ended up fired. My bullshit armchair psychoanalysis is that it’s going to take some real internal work for Axl to loosen the reins a little bit. If *everyone* he hired ended up being an incompetent fool who undermined him…at some point there has to be a moment of self awareness when he realizes the common denominator.

Yep. And on a certain level, I understand the idea of wanting your management to do what you want them to, but it’s sort of like hiring a football coach and then telling him what plays to call. It’s not gonna work.

Bingo. If anything, the label really fleeced Best Buy, who bought a million copies or so of the album - many of which had to be sold on clearance.

I’m not disagreeing with you, but I do want to add on to this conversation: I notice on this forum that a lot of times we refer to Team Brazil as being strictly Beta and Fernando. Axl is Team Brazil too. It really should be called Team Axl. I read posts that refer to TB as if they’re controlling things and as if Axl is a bystander, ignorant to all of poor choices TB has made. Axl is running the show. It’s not Beta masterminding years of stagnation by whispering in Axl’s ear. These are Axl’s choices.

Exactly. The fact is that the labels bankrolled Chinese Democracy for *years*. Eventually, they’re going to want to see some return on their investment. That’s not corporate greed, that’s common sense. If Axl started a Kickstarter for Chinese Democracy and we all contributed, after 10 years with nothing to show for it, we’d all want our money back. The lack of promotion for Chinese Democracy I can chalk up to a few things: they had already poured so much money into the project and they knew that pouring a ton more into a promotion for a band that, in 2008, was pretty irrelevant was a waste of money. Or the fact that they had to force the album out of Axl’s hands caused a lot of bad blood. Or Axl was simply too difficult and demanding and they were probably like “you know what? Fuck this guy. If he doesn’t want to be cooperative, why bother?” None of which I can blame on the label. And, like you said, it’s easier than ever to release music now. And for a band that just had one of the most lucrative tours of all time, any label would be falling over themselves to release music and keep the momentum rolling. It just doesn’t add up.

Well that’s where I have a really hard time giving Axl the benefit of the doubt. I just have a hard time believing that every other major artist seems to be able to work with the label and get their product on the shelves, but for Axl they make it too difficult. I’m sure everything was a mess for Chinese Democracy, and I’m sure a lot of that had to with Axl and GNR management.

At this point I don’t know if the issue is the writing so much as the singing. I’m still a believer that studio magic can work wonders on Axl’s voice and get us a record that sounds like it should. But he might not think that way.