Liva

On 4/8/2021 at 2:00 PM, Sisyphus said:

Excuse me for being financially illiterate but what does this mean in layman's terms? I don't understand how can you keep getting more and more money mortgaging the same real estate. Do those number add up or did he pay some of the loans back and then remortgaged the house time and time again? How does this work? 

He was basically refinancing the previous mortgage and taking out a little bit more.  Did it several times.  Looks like he ended up with a $5,525,000 mortgage and a $500,000 home equity line of credit, or 2nd mortgage for a total of $6,025,000 by mid 2007.  He had an existing mortgage of $4,820,000 ($4,320,000 + $500,000) in 2006 that he refinanced.  So basically he paid off that 4.8m mortgage and took out another 1.2m.  

Now he could have paid that off in 2008, or 2016/2017, which I am sure he did especially with the windfall from the reunion.  Mortgages recorded against a property are relatively easy to find public record, the current balance or when it was paid off is harder to find.   I doubt as of 2021 Axl has any mortgages against his house.

5 minutes ago, allwaystired said:

Yeah that covers all bases, as well as what I posted above. Every single aspect of this line of conversation  around 'they don't need to release new material' has been debated and debated. 

My previous post was meant to be a bit sarcastic really, along the lines of 'here's the way the conversation will go, the things that will be said and how it will eventually wind-down' rather than my own thoughts. 

I think most people are probably pretty weary of trying to find reasons for why GNR never release music now. 

 

I did see Slash recording/demo'ing with SMKC a few days ago according to Meegans IG.  So his creative outlet is probably SMKC, GNR is play massive shows, have 20,000+ people screaming for most of the set and singing along, and sets him up financially.   I don't know if Duff is doing side projects still, I saw he was releasing something from his band prior to GNR, thing it was recorded in 1982.  Unfortunately seems like some of the band is doing other things, which most likely means, until GNR gets back to touring their attention is elsewhere.  

I still am convinced there is some issue with new music/ownership/release rights etc which is holding new music back.  They released a whole bunch of early era stuff with the AFD box set, those songs probably are not under whatever contract Axl got himself/GNR into with the ChiDem era.  They could've just as easily released new songs, but they didn't.  Something is there, there has to be someone in the business/works at the label on here that knows something along these lines.  I don't believe Axl is actually just tinkering with songs endlessly.

49 minutes ago, allwaystired said:

That's been discussed often on here.

The most common reason is that any and every other band do it. Then someone mentions a band that doesn't. Then someone mentions they actually do really. Then the conversation goes along the route of 'making new music is what a band does'. There might be a rabbit hole of discussion about the amount of money bands do actually make from new material too, and how it gives them a boost in terms of attention anyway which helps them sell more tickets. 

It'll probably go on for about five pages, then people will come to a general shared opinion that it's all irrelevant anyway, as GNR just don't seem to want to do anything new and no-one knows why. 

Hope that helps! 

I would guess 95% of the attendees for all tours since 2001 have been people that want to hear the classics, songs that were released from 1987 - 1991.  Add to the fact they more or less went dark from 1993 - 2006, discounting the 2001-2002 shows which there were only a few ( I was at Boston 2002).  They have consistently sold out or nearly sold out venues based on a combination of their back catalogue and the mystique of Axl, as well as the mystique following the band knowing all members are still alive, therefore a reunion one day was possible.  The current formula is good media coverage and selling out shows.  

If they release a new album, I don't think they can satisfy anyone as people always revert to a version of "its not as good as the past".  So a new album will be major hype and if it actually turns out to not be great, negative press will ensue.  They lost it, they suck, they should retire yada yada.  That would only hurt ticket sales for shows if the average person hears negative press.  Its a calculation they have to make and while I would personally LOVE new music from them, I don't see them putting any out until they have to in order to sell out shows.

Now if the band never broke up they probably could have toured after the Live Era release but that most likely would have been the end of the publics interest and final tour.  If the band was still together and CD was released 15 years later, the band would've been over in my opinion.  

It all goes back to making money, GNR is a big machine that needs to be fed a lot of $$$ to keep going, they aren't going to jeopardize the formula until they need to.

52 minutes ago, TAYLOR said:

i dont know much about usa and there rules but he had no prenup she apparenly was like his personal asstance aswell from what a read she got half of everthing all sales he made from his solo carerer and loads more and so much for the kids who one is like 17 and the other is like 19 or so 

wasnt a very wise move though marriage with no pre nup but hey thats there life but if he paid her millions and she got half of stuff could be the reason he is so skint or was who knows 

she took him to the cleaners,,, 

 

 

 

 

but did she?  He filed in 2014, so any earnings after that she would have no claim to.  If the reports about her lawyers claims are correct and Slash made 45m in 2017, then he most likely made similar amounts in 2018 and 2019 as it was all touring income.  135m top line, left with around 75m after tax.  If that is invested as a low rate of 5% (he can get much higher, this is low) it would throw off 3.75m per year in just INTEREST.  He pays Perla 1.2m, and he is left with 2.55m per year in INTEREST to do as he pleases...all the while the 75m principal isn't even being touched.  So who got the better of that deal is really behind the scenes with the parties involved only knowing that.  Not sure how this turned from an Axl was broke thread into a Slash is broke one.  

If Slash had $200 or $200 Million in the bank, if Axl called to reconcile GNR, Slash was coming back either way, I have always felt that to be the case unless Slash's role would be part of a 3-4 guitar circus, then I don't think he would come back.  Unless people have convinced themselves that Slash's divorce left him broke and Axl felt bad for him and therefore let him back in the band so he could make money and they go on a multi year tour.  I believe Axl admitted to asking Fernando to reach out to Slash or to get him Slash's number, this whole thing was started by Axl.

15 minutes ago, Spuffy78 said:

Same reason George Carlin did back in the day he needed the money. Axl's got a bunch of yes men around him. There was an article he had a property in Vancouver and he never bothered to ever live there. 

Looks like he sold that a while ago.  Looks like an owner bought it in 2004 for 3m and sold it in 2007 for 18.2m after building it out, prior to that it was an empty concrete shell.  It lists prior owners as Canucks Hockey player Pavel Bure, and before that Axl Rose.  Building was constructed in 1993 although when and how much Axl bought and sold it for is unknown.  Axl also rented a NYC apt in 2011 and 2012 which he never lived in, he did not renew the lease in 2013 for a 3rd year.

I think what happens with a lot of these famous people is they have other people "managing" their money and paying all their bills, so these guys spend and probably don't really know how much they have or what income vs expense ratio is, as long as the credit card swipes they continue on their way.  A musician that is touring 8+ months a year can't have bills mailed to their house, all hell would break loose, so it goes to their money manager that just pays the bills.  Most of the time, these people just approve whatever.  This practice is also how you see all the time musicians and actors suing managers alleging they stole millions from the artist, its cause the artist assumes its all being handled until the well is dry, which is when everyone on the payroll bails and then you know you have a problem.

2 minutes ago, PatrickS77 said:

If he really agreed to that, he's a fucking fool. Usually alimony is connected to the actual income.

In the USA, Alimony is usually a combination of income, assets and keeping the wife in a similar living situation that she has been accustomed to.  These are news reports on that number, it could be tied to a number of things, for instance if GNR goes away, it could go down to say 20k a month or a number of things might be tied to that 100k number.  If her lawyer was going for 250k a month and his income would've gotten her that legally, then agreeing to 100k is a deal for him.   Gotta put it in perspective.  And we don't know, what we don't know.

if you really take a step back, it is relatively easy to see how this all happened.  Slash and Duff would go back to GNR at anytime, they were just waiting for the call from Axl.  Slash and Duff are playing solo stuff, but their crowd goes nuts when SMKC plays a GNR song and Slash knows that, so why not play it together with the guys you created it with.  

Axl tried to go his own route, it didn't work out as planned and he had no next move. No one to finance endless Axl only GNR tours and no record, his vision ran its course without more financial backing, it was over.  Axl called Slash and Duff, they came back, im sure a little nervous but wheels are in motion.  They got a big nut to do Coachella and Vegas, once they realized they could make a killing and they were getting along, they let it rip.  Tour for years, now they are all loaded.

Slash and Duff wanted back in.  Axl needed them to make money.  Here we are now.

2 hours ago, Beto 22 said:

Maybe not broke for our standards of living. Maybe not broke for Slash standard in 2014...

But for a deal that lasts for his entire life, 100k a month it's a lot of money from when Slash is just touring alone.

 

When he now has to basically finance his arts and records... If you think that he used to brag to record only on tape and now says that record his albuns in Pro Tools in his home studio.

Maybe he's not broke now or even then... But he knows that startin a month with -100k is something he has to think and look seriously when the time comes and he's not able tontour and record as he would like to do.

He wouldn't sign that deal if he couldn't afford it, he signed it in 2018/2019.  Perla's lawyers claimed Slash made 45 million in 2017 alone, if that is true or not, I have no idea, but that is just 1 out of the 4 years this tour trucked on.  If anyone was so inclined I am sure they can look up court records to see filings and what was alleged as this is usually public record, don't know if final settlements are under seal though.  

He has recorded 1 album on Pro Tools which I think I remember him saying, to paraphrase, it wasn't his first choice but they got good results and he seemed ok with it.  Livin The Dream was released on September 21, 2018.  Look at his touring schedule, he was on the road non stop from June 2016 - Dec 2018.  His breaks were

• 8/23/16 - 10/26/16: 2 months
• 1/20/16 - 1/20/17: 2 months
• 3/3/17 - 5/26/17: just under 3 months, last show in Dubai, return show in Ireland
• 9/9/17 - 9/22/17: 13 days
• 11/30/17 - 6/2/18: 6 months 
• 7/25/18 - 11/2/18: Album released during this period

I would venture to guess that recording to tape takes longer, requires all instrument members be present as its recording more "live", lots of run thru's and re-recording etc.  Given his hectic schedule, I would think the ONLY way he could release it is if they did it via pro tools where members could record at different times and do stuff while Slash is on the road with GNR, Slash comes home, lays his stuff down, goes back out.  There were 12 songs on this record vs 17 on the previous one, 15 on Apocalyptic Love etc.  To say in 2017/2018 whenever he got a chance to record the album that it went the Pro Tools route due to money, while money was pouring in, and not due to time constraints would be a stretch.  

I am not sure I buy that Slash was broke after the divorce, he was the one who filed it so I am sure he knew what he was getting into and also did some pre-planning.  They bought their Sherman Oaks house in 2009 for 7.3 million and sold it in November 2017 for 8.7m, that's a 1.4m profit which after the 100k real estate taxes per year, holding costs on the house and the 4.4m mortgage they took out, they probably broke even and ended up with 3 million in cold hard cash after that sale.  The divorce was filed around Christmas 2014 and wasn't finalized until late 2018/2019 I believe.  Perla got a lump sum of 6.6m and 100k per month for life unless she remarries, she is 45 yrs old, that is 1.2m a year and she will probably live another 40 years, so yes that is a chunk of change over 40 years.  In addition she gets child support of 39k per month, usually ends when the kids turn 18, which I think they are close if not over the age.  Now lets say she got HALF...do the math, that doesn't exactly leave the other half (slash) hurting for money.  I still think all said and done, Slash has the most money out of all the members, he has endorsed so many things from Guitar Hero, Gibson guitar lines, Marshall amps, his likeness on merch, appearances everywhere, interviews all the time before the reunion.  Like it or not, SLASH is a brand, gotta give a guitarist that doesn't sing or speak very much a lot of credit for that accomplishment.

I would venture to guess SMKC was almost a break even for Slash, MAYBE took home a few hundred thousand a year, if that.  I think that whole venture was because Slash loved writing, playing live and touring, and he has always had plenty of money to be able to be creative and active the way he wants.  Since the divorce was finalized 2-3 year AFTER the reunion, I don't see how the two connect to be honest.  

@Euchre you made some solid points there.   I think back in 2005 Axl sold the publishing rights, or at least tried to sell them for $19 million to Sanctuary Music Group.  I don't know if the deal went thru, I believe there was a lawsuit from Slash and Duff as they were cut out of their publishing, I think in the end Axl ended up giving them their royalty checks.  This article states the 1st quarter 2005 total GNR royalty check was 92k...which annualized is roughly 400k.  Split that however many times and if you aren't doing anything else, that 100-200k isn't gonna give you that rockstar life.  I wonder if that Sanctuary deal ever went through in the end, but you don't attempt it if you are flush with cash...

There is more to a new record that meets the eye.  They have released old stuff recently, but I feel like there are some ownership battles over the ChiDem material, and I wonder if GNR/Axl is still under a record deal and he kinda has to release the Chi Dam stuff to satisfy the deal before he can release new new stuff made since 2016 with Slash and Duff.  Maybe Axl doesn't want to release those songs, and they have a record with new songs or hybrid of chi dem and new songs, but the record company won't get their cut on new songs so they won't let the record out.  Something is going on behind the scenes and I don't think its Axl being lazy or a perfectionist.  If the record company forces the next records to be ChiDem 2 and ChiDem 3 and its not a Slash/old GNR type bluesy rock record, I don't think the public will have an appetite for it.  They didn't in 2008.  I wish we knew the real reason, but if they are in litigation with the record company, #1 rule is to keep your mouth shut, let the lawyers do the talking.  

Slash I doubt was financially struggling, he has constant cash flow from licensing deals all over the place plus writing/performing royalties coming in from tons of artists he has worked with over the decades.  Yea his divorce was a big number, but you don't get to that number unless you have big numbers to split, I am sure slash was fine even without the reunion.  Now, he filed for divorce back around 2009, when his first solo record came out, so they have been rocky for years.  Knowing that, of course he isn't gonna sign the GNR deal until the divorce is in motion or it can be excluded.  Even if he had plenty of money, that would've been a rookie mistake.

I saw an interview with duff after VR was done, and he basically said that he still needed to work, he wasn't just a loaded rockstar.  Yea he has some investments, but I doubt he had millions in the bank.  I think Axl/Slash/Duff are all flush with cash now though.

guess I killed the discussion...

On 1/9/2021 at 2:43 PM, mystery said:

I'm surprised Axl hasn't posted much since election day. Especially since what happened at the Capitol. Such irony that Trump said he's his favorite rockstar and loves November Rain. Meanwhile Axl hates his guts.

When did trump say this?  any video of it?

5 hours ago, RussTCB said:

As seen by the dismal sales of the US stadium tour so far, Axl will soon be looking out at far less people. 

If the idea is "as long as Axl and GNR are getting their money, then they still won't care", then it won't matter anyway. But if they're doing these tours for anywhere near the right reasons, then it should absolutely matter to them what their die hard fans think. 

Other than their first run through each city starting in 2016, their 2nd runs everyone was pointing out how bad ticket sales were and how arena's were half empty a few days/weeks/months after they went on sale.  And those were 15,000 seat arena's.  Turns out they sold out or near sold out most of those shows, if they didnt, they wouldnt be making another run around NA in even larger venue's, they would do Arena's not Stadiums.  I think the demand is there, but the urgency to purchase immediately is not, so people will wait until closer to the show date to buy their tickets.  In 2016, people were scared to not get a seat and were scared about stubhub prices being through the roof, so tickets went fast.  In 2017, shows sold out closer to the show date, in my case, the 2020 NJ show at Metlife is July 18, thats a long time away.  With around a 50,000 seat capacity for concerts, 82k for football, I believe they will sell out and possibly add a 2nd date down the road.  I have seen no promotion for the show in this area yet either, so outside the forum or following them on social media, most people in the area arent even aware they are playing yet.  I would expect promotion to ramp up in May/June.

3 minutes ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

ahhh u made my bite again lol 

gaslighting along with jaded were indeed correct terms to describe your positioning 

for the last time, my use of cheapskate was joking at the irony of how much you've spent and I expressed humor in having a pissing match on how much I've spent 

since we already agreed on the jaded statement let me explain the gas lighting for u

your POV doesn't help at all GNR to change their ways, it encourages them and others to follow this logic of encouragement and to remain solvent while milking the shitty ass set list and lineup that they've thrown down everyones throats for what will be 4+ years with no new music 

 i am sure many others who have either already ejected themselves from following the ludicrous act that this band has become would agree with me - you expressing that everything is A ok gets under my skin a little, not a lot but enough for me to make it known 

now if they indeed change their ways i'll be on board with you and i'll pay for the uber coming via Newark to the show - if they don't then i will indeed shut the fuck up for good 

 

 

once again...if you hate the band, dont go to the shows, and stop coming here and insulting members.  They are selling MILLIONS of tickets, unless you plan to organize massive protests outside each arena/stadium, you are accomplishing nothing other than running your mouth.  To think what you are doing is taking a stand and going to change GNR's ways is a joke. 

GNR Camp Member: Hey Axl, a couple of guys on this forum have some complaints and demand changes

Axl: How many are complaining?

GNR Camp Member:  I dunno, maybe 200 of them

Axl: How many tickets have we sold, and out of those 200, how many have actually seen this tour in person

GNR Camp Member:  over 4 million ticket sold, currently top 5 grossing tours of ALL time, should we change it up to please these 200 people, maybe half have seen a live show on the NITL tour?

Axl:  Nah, Im all set, I look out every night to smiling faces and cheering people, think we are doing ok.

If these complaints actually even get to Axl, that is probably what the convo goes like.  Come on man.

44 minutes ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

agreed but in GNR's case I don't know what they value more die hards who spend a lot (doubtful) vs the masses of casual fans that buy 80% of the tickets - for now GNR sells tickets based on the name and slash being back in the mix nothing else 

I would assume they value any fan, anyone who is impacted or enjoys their music.  The band provides a service (3 hour show) and in return fans pay for a ticket to see the show.  So I paid for a service which happens to be a live concert by my favorite band.  GNR most likely gets a guarantee and arent directly collecting on ticket sales, there may be kickers and milestones if they sell out or reach a certain milestone.  But if face value is $250 and a DIE HARD fans buys that ticket for $500 off stubhub,  GNR doesnt get the difference, they dont get $500...they dont even get the $250. They get the guarantee or whatever their contract stipulates.  Over the years I have bought tickets off stubhub and overpaid.  Should Axl give me preferential treatment cause a scalper made money off me?  Your arguments validity are decreasing at an increasing rate

2 hours ago, IrishgunnerII said:

 Where did I say you weren't entitled to your opinion ? I never say you weren't. "Ok newbie" ? I may be a newbie in this incarnation of my username here but I'm not a newbie as it pertains to GNR. 

So you went from saying people were gaslighting(among other words)by buying tickets to the see the band to now saying you might buy tickets to see them this year. How does that work ? 

 

i escaped the "newbie" moniker because my username dates back to 2005, thanks for taking that one for the team.  Among other words he used, gas lighting was another misuse.  It would be insinuating the I am a victim of GNR and they have been somehow physiologically manipulating me.  Guy prob things the moon is made out of cheese too.  GNR offers a show, I am not forced to go, the price of admission is upfront.  I can choose on my own to buy tickets or not.  I feel pretty free to make my own decision.  I live 20 minutes from MSG, so maybe if I take a helicopter or private jet there, i will fulfill his criteria of not being a cheapskate, and finally work my way to genuine fan status. 

1 hour ago, RussTCB said:

Side note to the discussion above: the amount of money you spend on a band has absolutely nothing to do with whether you're a fan or not. 

agreed, lets keep it about the love of the music they made and are performing (still) and not airlines miles accrued to get to shows.  Sure we all want more music from them, just some reasonable minds need to prevail on what will actually happen vs what will most likely happen.  Solid forum you run here, thanks for all you do.  I come to the forum for news and updates and cool tidbits, the constant whining brings the mood down.  The arrogant members are a drag, but in general its been a solid 15+ years of lurking for me and provided me with a wealth of knowledge.  This will be my 36th post in 15+ years, gotta be some record low on the interaction spectrum.

thank you RussTCB!

6 minutes ago, IrishgunnerII said:

You being a bitter and abused( abuse or abused aren't words I'd throw around but that's just me) fan is your issue. I'm going to see GNR this year for the fourth time in Dublin. Going by your logic in the two posts I've seen I'm an idiot for seeing them again. 

 

Nobody is forcing anyone including you or me to buy tickets to see the band you know. You don't want to see the band live again, then knock yourself out and don't but people are and honestly if the last two posts by you calling people cheapskates and saying we are gaslighting is reflective of your posting history then it's good I've not seen them before now. 

hey man, I cant believe you are going to see GNR and plan on having a great time.  I think you have to ask permission to enjoy them now?!?  make sure you run it by the financial advisors first to ensure you arent wasting your money.

nahhhhh....ffff that.   Enjoy the show!

4 minutes ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

jaded isn't an insult, its honest but not insulting and i was joking about the cheapskate comment - sorry i hadn't read about you flying to vegas but that show sucked as well, however i am slightly jealous you saw coma for the first time that must've been cool 

look, i want to make this pissing match with no offense intended you've spent way too much on shows and seem prepared to spend a lot more, that's why I'm trying to be your friend 

For me I've seen 5 shows and 4 of them were good - in 2017 I gave away the 5 tickets i bought because i saw the nose dive happening, i don't know why you think things are so hunky dory now to continue supporting them, that being said I will admit i am a very bitter and abused fan looking for more so i don't want others to go in that rabbit hole 

you make no sense and are making excuses now that you realize what an ass you made yourself out to be. 

I can spend my money on whatever I want, I didnt come here for financial advice or an accountant.  I enjoy seeing live music, i chose to spend my money on that.  I saw Dirty Honey last week and the Glorious Sons 2 weeks ago, if you think they are not good bands, should I feel like I wasted my money? No thanks dude.

Giving away 5 paid for tickets, thats a waste of money, dont know any other way to characterize that.

People spend money as they please on what makes them happy

If I spend $200 for a 3+ hour live GNR show, and leave entertained and happy, does that make it any better or worse than 

1.  spending $200 on a great dinner

2. spending $200 on drinks at a bar

3. spending $200 on flowers for a girl

4. spending $200 on a drum throne

5. spending $200 on a jacket

6. spending $200 on a broadway show

Drop the "trying to be friend" stuff...you have a list of negative things to call GNR, but i think you can call yourself "fake"

If you are here for financial advice, I would say, stop visiting this forum since you seem to hate everything about this band and use your internet connection for something more useful.  If this is the only thing you do online, then cancel your internet contract and save that money.

Pissing match over

1 minute ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

u didn't fly anywhere like i have cheapskate 

and if you're motivated to see them in 2020 after this hurting non-changing attitude of theirs than i admire you gas lighting their non-fan friendly non stop touring which brings them down 10 hundred levels of authenticity 

so again, i don't want to repeat myself but be happy for the two good shows you've seen and cash out while you can, i'm trying to be your friend 

"jaded" "not a genuine fan" "cheapskate"  all at the same time AND you want to be my friend?  You're wrong on everything you said, just admit it, clearly you cant and make little to no sense in your ramblings.

oh and I flew to see them in Vegas night 1 2016...i took my "cheapskate" ass on a jet plane to go see them, you just cant stop making yourself look dumber and dumber...  you done yet?  Lets move on, shall we?

6 minutes ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

buddy out of the many shows you've seen, you've seen two good ones - cash out while you can and get over yourself 

soooo....guessing you cant find those magical NYC area GNR shows I missed in 2018 and 2019.  Admit it, your argument fell flat on its face.  You called me out, you look dumb now, admit it, might make you feel better.  The person deciding who is a fan and who isnt is quite rich, maybe you should take your own advice and get over yourself.  I am a pretty happy GNR fan, only had to prove myself after your snarky comments.

If you are so dissatisfied with the band, why continue to follow them? 

Let me know when you find those 2018 and 2019 NYC area shows I missed...HAHA!

14 minutes ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

i've noticed one anomoly you've neglected to see GNR post 2017 and prioritized SMKC instead

so jaded indeed considering were talking about GNR 2017 and onwards so when you go and see them in 2020 pls send me a box of gnr trinkets for proof 

also looking at your list the only two shows you've seen are the 2002 boston one and 2006 hammerstein one when izzy showed up

man...you should do some research before you open your mouth.   I live in NJ and primarily go to shows in my area which is pretty obvious other than a few here and there.  I am Jaded because I havent seen GNR since 2017 you say...show me on this list where they have played near NJ or NYC since the last 10/16/2017 MSG show https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_in_This_Lifetime..._Tour .  Ahhh, lightblub, they haven't...2020 Metlife will be the first time in this area since that 2017 show...so WRONG

I didnt prioritize any band, I saw as many shows as I could, no matter who was playing within a reasonable driving distance.  SMKC was touring in 2018 and 2019 in the NYC area, GNR was not.

So out of this list of shows, you arbitrarily think I only saw 2002 boston and 1 2006 hammerstein when izzy showed up?  Just those two?  Those are the ones you convinced yourself are legit?  If that is what you got out of that post and this thread in general, its no wonder you are confused.