Do Axl's lyrics lack subtlety?

[Count Drugcula]

After reading the lyrics of people like Dylan, Jagger/Richards, Page/Plant, etc etc, I gotta ask:

Does anyone else think that Axl's lyrics (for the most part) are a little too direct? That they lack that metaphorical spirit that colors a lot of the songs by Jagger/Richards, Page/Plant, etc? I just feel at times that his lyrics like hammer you over the head with the message intended, that it's too direct, and he says in a ten minute song what another lyricists could say in a five minute song.

I always hated Cobain and the like, but as I write more of my own stuff, I've kind of come to have appreciation for shorter, more metaphorical stuff. Don't get me wrong, Axl does have some metaphorical lyrics--Rhiad, CD, Catcher--

But the bulk of his work over his career (not just CD) is VERY direct, and somewhat longwinded. I feel CD is just a bit too repetitive in it's themes.

One reason why I love the UYIs more than any other GN'R record is because the themes, stories, thoughts presented in the songs' lyrics are so diverse and all encompassing. AFD is all about partying and the dark side of life, for the most part, and thus it fixes on only a few major themes: sleaze, dirt, sex, corruption, the high flying rebel rebel. And CD is the exact opposite: It's the comedown after the party, the distraught lost soul, the beaten man, the underdog. And I like variety in music and lyrics, which is why I prefer the UYIs over all the rest.

I'm not talking about the music or any other factor, simply the lyrics. I don't think we've ever had a big discussion about Axl's lyrical style, skills or talent here before...And since there's nothing else to talk about, I figured it'd make for some interesting discussion.

You don't have to just argue or agree with my point, also give your own perspective on Axl's lyrics--What are your favorite lyrics? Why do they speak to you? What songs could've been written better? Etc, etc.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Count Drugcula

[Jakey Styley]

Subtlety can just be completely annoying sometimes. Axl is one of my favorite lyricists because I don't feel like he's thinking "man, I gotta sound really deep here" or "i have to sound witty..." when he writes his lyrics.

Edited March 17, 2011 by ItsSuchACrimeUKnowItsJAKE

[saber_]

What in the fuck are you talking about? No i mean... really... what teh fuck are you talking about?

Quite frankly, I think you've expressed an opinion. And one poorly backed up by broad, sweeping, vague generalizations with little merit. Nice stealth cupcake though.

[Count Drugcula]

What in the fuck are you talking about? No i mean... really... what teh fuck are you talking about?

Quite frankly, I think you've expressed an opinion. And one poorly backed up by broad, sweeping, vague generalizations with little merit. Nice stealth cupcake though.

Three examples:

Estranged

November Rain

Coma

Great songs but the lyrics are a little too direct. Like, we know what exactly he's trying to tell us, and it drags on a bit, cause we get the message.

A song like Stairway to Heaven is a long song, but the lyrics aren't the best direct, straight forward, you can really read anything you want into it. I think Axl takes himself/music/his lyrics way too seriously.

He's never written anything as sublime or just...natural...as like, Tumblin' Dice.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Count Drugcula

[saber_]

We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

I just checked the lyrics for all 3 songs you just listed. What if perhaps some of the subtlety is eluding you?

Edited March 17, 2011 by mindsaber

[Count Drugcula]

We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

I just checked the lyrics for all 3 songs you just listed. What if perhaps some of the subtlety is eluding you?

If it's eluding me, then it's too subtle.

[The Wicked Hand]

Mindsaber:

count stated his opinion about the lyrics and then told you why he felt that way.

Then you called him a cupcake without saying why you dig the lyrics therfore, you didn't back up your ideas. YOUR the fucking cupcake because you wait til anyone has any opinion that's not 100% positive about axl, and then jump in and say their full of shit without even backing your posts with even an explanation of why you think the way you do. You have no merit.

I think that the lyrics on CD are a comfirmation of him living in the past, holding on to anger, and I'm actually embarassed for him when I listen to it. I feel sorry for him.

I just don't like the themes of the songs. They are very self serving and irrelevant to the present times, which is fitting, considering.

I dig the music, arangements, and beastly shredding of the record though.

[Trilogy]

What in the fuck are you talking about? No i mean... really... what teh fuck are you talking about?

Quite frankly, I think you've expressed an opinion. And one poorly backed up by broad, sweeping, vague generalizations with little merit. Nice stealth cupcake though.

Three examples:

Estranged

November Rain

Coma

Great songs but the lyrics are a little too direct. Like, we know what exactly he's trying to tell us, and it drags on a bit, cause we get the message.

A song like Stairway to Heaven is a long song, but the lyrics aren't the best direct, straight forward, you can really read anything you want into it. I think Axl takes himself/music/his lyrics way too seriously.

He's never written anything as sublime or just...natural...as like, Tumblin' Dice.

Oh Christ Almighty,Look people write differently,I enjoy the razor-sharp lyrics personally,and maybe you aren't

sharp enough to catch the random subtle references?

Nothing wrong with taking your writing seriously,when you are a lyricist/composer,take a gander around at what they are pumping down the septic tunnel that has been referred to as "popular music" and then complain,is it that difficult to comprehend that writing is an extension of your personality,to a degree,look at the interviews,no punches pulled,straight forward to the point no matter how it may be construed or misinterpreted.

[Lose Your Illusions]

What in the fuck are you talking about? No i mean... really... what teh fuck are you talking about?

Quite frankly, I think you've expressed an opinion. And one poorly backed up by broad, sweeping, vague generalizations with little merit. Nice stealth cupcake though.

Three examples:

Estranged

November Rain

Coma

Great songs but the lyrics are a little too direct. Like, we know what exactly he's trying to tell us, and it drags on a bit, cause we get the message.

A song like Stairway to Heaven is a long song, but the lyrics aren't the best direct, straight forward, you can really read anything you want into it. I think Axl takes himself/music/his lyrics way too seriously.

He's never written anything as sublime or just...natural...as like, Tumblin' Dice.

And why shouldn't he take it so seriously? Those songs are all lyrically about, more or less, something that happened in his life, be it relationships, love etc. And I dont know about you, but everyone I know takes those things seriously.

What makes Axl great, is that he lacks subtely. No bullshit, he's not hinting at anything, it's in your face.

With Chinese Democracy, on some tracks he is a bit more subtle. But then you have songs like Sorry and This I love which arent subtle at all.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Lose Your Illusions

[saber_]

Mindsaber:

count stated his opinion about the lyrics and then told you why he felt that way.

Then you called him a cupcake without saying why you dig the lyrics therfore, you didn't back up your ideas. YOUR the fucking cupcake because you wait til anyone has any opinion that's not 100% positive about axl, and then jump in and say their full of shit without even backing your posts with even an explanation of why you think the way you do. You have no merit.

I think that the lyrics on CD are a comfirmation of him living in the past, holding on to anger, and I'm actually embarassed for him when I listen to it. I feel sorry for him.

I just don't like the themes of the songs. They are very self serving and irrelevant to the present times, which is fitting, considering.

I dig the music, arangements, and beastly shredding of the record though.

First of all, pal, I called him a "stealth cupcake." Perhaps you should avail yourself of internet memes because "stealth cupcake" is a different term than "cupcake," and there typically is humor associated with "stealth cupcake." On another note, no need to freak out. Notice he didn't.

Second of all, the thread is not about "digging" the lyrics. The thread's opening post clearly talks about metaphor, subtlety, and things of that nature. I submitted my thought there is more subtlety than he's giving credit for.

Thirdly, once again on this site I run into a vehement whiner, who posts like he's been here forever, but only 'joined' a month ago. Hmmmm....ghosts of banned users' past? Or perhaps just someone who is obsessed with alts?

FINALLY, your little analysis of Chinese Democracy is utter garbage. The lyrics on CD don't confirm anything of the sort. You should be embarrassed you think you have some psychic connection with Axl that you are 100% in tune with all the songs' meanings and origins. You don't like the themes? Well who the fuck are you? We're talking about an artist here, not some employee of yours whom you feel the need to criticize. Songwriters are poets in their own right, and also are like painters. You appreciate what the artist is creating because you have an appreciation for the artist and his creativity. You don't pick apart his offerings and come up with lame, empty criticisms devoid of factual, evidential value. You shared your opinion, good for you. Quit trying to portray it as some commonly agreed upon reality.

"Self serving and irrelevant to the present times"? Did you really just say that? Who died and made you the arbiter of lyrical interpretation?

In your case I'm gonna definitely say the subtlety of the lyrics are going over your head.

Edited March 17, 2011 by mindsaber

[Trilogy]

Mindsaber:

count stated his opinion about the lyrics and then told you why he felt that way.

Then you called him a cupcake without saying why you dig the lyrics therfore, you didn't back up your ideas. YOUR the fucking cupcake because you wait til anyone has any opinion that's not 100% positive about axl, and then jump in and say their full of shit without even backing your posts with even an explanation of why you think the way you do. You have no merit.

I think that the lyrics on CD are a comfirmation of him living in the past, holding on to anger, and I'm actually embarassed for him when I listen to it. I feel sorry for him.

I just don't like the themes of the songs. They are very self serving and irrelevant to the present times, which is fitting, considering.

I dig the music, arangements, and beastly shredding of the record though.

First of all, pal, I called him a "stealth cupcake." Perhaps you should avail yourself of internet memes because "stealth cupcake" is a different term than "cupcake," and there typically is humor associated with "stealth cupcake." On another note, no need to freak out. Notice he didn't.

Second of all, the thread is not about "digging" the lyrics. The thread's opening post clearly talks about metaphor, subtlety, and things of that nature. I submitted my thought there is more subtlety than he's giving credit for.

Thirdly, once again on this site I run into a vehement whiner, who posts like he's been here forever, but only 'joined' a month ago. Hmmmm....ghosts of banned users' past? Or perhaps just someone who is obsessed with alts?

FINALLY, your little analysis of Chinese Democracy is utter garbage. The lyrics on CD don't confirm anything of the sort. You should be embarrassed you think you have some psychic connection with Axl that you are 100% in tune with all the songs' meanings and origins. You don't like the themes? Well who the fuck are you? We're talking about an artist here, not some employee of yours whom you feel the need to criticize. Songwriters are poets in their own right, and also are like painters. You appreciate what the artist is creating because you have an appreciate for the artist and his creativity. You don't pick apart his offerings and come up with lame, empty criticisms devoid of factual, evidential value. You shared your opinion, good for you. Quit trying to portray it as some commonly agreed upon reality.

"Self serving and irrelevant to the present times"? Did you really just say that? Who died and made you the arbiter of lyrical interpretation?

In your case I'm gonna definitely say the subtlety of the lyrics are going over your head.

Let's not be subtle,it's obviously over the heads of some, Whacked Hand is obviously here not to participate in civilized conversations,but is a bitter,shit-stirring,uninformed troublemaker who came armed with a deep-seated,irrational,and unhinged agenda to cause havoc in every thread,That said, the interviews were not subtle, but aimed straight at the heart of the topic being discussed,regardless of popular opinion,the onstage replies to the bottle-throwing dicks,and promoters who challenge GNR with arbirary "time restrictions" are dealt with the same way,how anyone overlooks this aspect is beyond me,and beyond any rational explanation that could be given.

[wasted]

I don't mind the direct stuff, GNR seemed to be about expressing emotions. I see it getting more ambiguous or metaphorical on CD. maybe because the emotions, feelings are mixed. Axl seems to write lyrics like Elton or Dylan, it's almost stream of consciousness.

[FuddMckagan]

Axl's lyrics are near perfect.

Most of the time.

[Shooting Star]

Nah, they're are just perfect for me. Axl's lyrics are one of the reasons why I like GNR songs so much. Some lyrics are really direct, but you can't say they're simple (like Bon Jovi happy dumb songs, for example). To tell the truth, I think most of GNR songs are very complex.

I don't know why, but I always preferred bitterness and direct messages for songs, like Sorry ("It's harder to live with the truth about you than to live with the lies about me"= masterpiece),

Prostitute ("Ask yourself, why I would choose, to prostitute, myself, to live with fortune and shame"), Oh My God, Coma and the list goes on...

[The Wicked Hand]

I gave my opinion of axl lyrics on Chinese democracy.

That's what the thread is about you FOOLS.

The fact that I have been on here a month does not mean anything at all.

It's hillariois how anytime anyone says anything negative about Axl you automatically name call and insult peoples intellegence.

O the song sorry isn't about slash.... Please

this I love he didn't write 20 years ago... Crying all over the mic

almost every post you down everyone for not being able to comprehend things on your level. But you back your arguements and points with nothing. That's ignorance.

Opinions are one thing but facts are another. And you have an arsenal of opinion but no evidence of actual things that have happend.

I am allowed to not like the lyrics, and you shouldn't take it so personally how I interpret them ( which is how most people interpret them.)

so what do you think the lyrics are about?

What are these hidden messages that no one understands but you.?

I bet you won't answer that with a posted lyric and explanation.

[Trilogy]

I gave my opinion of axl lyrics on Chinese democracy.

That's what the thread is about you FOOLS.

The fact that I have been on here a month does not mean anything at all.

It's hillariois how anytime anyone says anything negative about Axl you automatically name call and insult peoples intellegence.

O the song sorry isn't about slash.... Please

this I love he didn't write 20 years ago... Crying all over the mic

almost every post you down everyone for not being able to comprehend things on your level. But you back your arguements and points with nothing. That's ignorance.

Opinions are one thing but facts are another. And you have an arsenal of opinion but no evidence of actual things that have happend.

I am allowed to not like the lyrics, and you shouldn't take it so personally how I interpret them ( which is how most people interpret them.)

so what do you think the lyrics are about?

What are these hidden messages that no one understands but you.?

I bet you won't answer that with a posted lyric and explanation.

Do you require more attention? I seriously doubt you have anything to "bet" that I would remotely be interested in,so what prompts you to come to the conclusion that "everyone interprets the lyrics as you do?" Sure,you are "allowed" not to like songs but please stop polluting the forum with your unending piles of cyber bullshit,you have no way of "magically"

knowing what inspired any song,you have no psychic connection,or magic beans to grow a beanstalk with,

the voices in your head are not audible to the rest of us,and judging from a few posts preceding this one,some people actually like the lyrics *shock*,please take your petty hatred elsewhere,it's nonsensical,hateful,irrelevant,childish,scumfuckery of the worst kind,if you hate it so bad,why are you so obsessed with it? That can't be healthy,and it certainly isn't productive,you get exactly what you deal out,and your deck of cards is made of imaginary shit running around in your unbalanced little head unchecked,when you stop throwing negativity and puzzling hatred into each and every thread,you just might get a more positive reaction and a more essentially polite reply,Feel free to take a few minutes or hours to contemplate and compute that.

[wasted]

I sort of agree that GNR isn't a psychedelic band. Catcher is the only song, or maybe Sorry, that has that vibe. Plant sang about Hobbits n shit and some of the Stones kind of voodoo. GNR are more real than that, a brutal band for brutal times? I guess you could say Brownstone is their Tumbling Dice and Nov Rain is like Stairway. I don't think Jagger has written a song as deep as Estranged or Catcher, neither has Plant, he just read Lord of the Rings. It would be awesome if Guns did a song about Han Solo or Darth Vader.

[Count Drugcula]

I sort of agree that GNR isn't a psychedelic band. Catcher is the only song, or maybe Sorry, that has that vibe. Plant sang about Hobbits n shit and some of the Stones kind of voodoo. GNR are more real than that, a brutal band for brutal times? I guess you could say Brownstone is their Tumbling Dice and Nov Rain is like Stairway. I don't think Jagger has written a song as deep as Estranged or Catcher, neither has Plant, he just read Lord of the Rings. It would be awesome if Guns did a song about Han Solo or Darth Vader.

The Rain Song is a deep song by Plant.

All of My Love as well.

Carouselambra too.

No Quarter

Waiting on a Friend by Mick

Plundered My Soul by Mick

Sympathy for the Devil

As Tears Go By

All deep

[Changes]

I actually appreciate that. Lyrics where there is no possibility to figure out by yourself what they are about are just frustrating. And to be honest I don't think it's a sign of superior writing skills either, often I think it's just lack of inspiration or being able to keep the lyrics together.

And I don't think Axl's lyrics are overly obvious either, it is often easy to apply your own problems etc

What I don't get about this thread though, is how the fuck it was possible to start fighting at post 2. There's nothing remotely provoking with the topic.

[wasted]

I sort of agree that GNR isn't a psychedelic band. Catcher is the only song, or maybe Sorry, that has that vibe. Plant sang about Hobbits n shit and some of the Stones kind of voodoo. GNR are more real than that, a brutal band for brutal times? I guess you could say Brownstone is their Tumbling Dice and Nov Rain is like Stairway. I don't think Jagger has written a song as deep as Estranged or Catcher, neither has Plant, he just read Lord of the Rings. It would be awesome if Guns did a song about Han Solo or Darth Vader.

The Rain Song is a deep song by Plant.

All of My Love as well.

Carouselambra too.

No Quarter

Waiting on a Friend by Mick

Plundered My Soul by Mick

Sympathy for the Devil

As Tears Go By

All deep

but I don't think that those songs are deeper than Catcher or Estranged etc. that's all. i guess it's subjective. I think maybe Plant Jagger tackle deeper subject matter more often? But Axl has his moments.

So, I think All of My Love, As Tears Go By, Waiting on a Friend are similar to If The World/Patience, they make you think but really they are just some touching lyrics.

Sympathy for the Devil is more like a book review type song like Catcher or based off a news story.

Whereas No Quarter/Stairway have more Symbolic lyrics, and Zepp have some mysticism, quasi-religious vibe going on that GNR doesn't have.

I give it to Zepp by a head based on symbolism and general exploration of mystic/pagan writings. they read more.

GNR might hit home harder on emotions. like capturing an emotion. Zepp could almost be like a spirtual experience but is incohenrence sensitivity? etc. etc. and on and on.

Edited March 17, 2011 by wasted

[STARABOSTES]

no.

ok let me elaborate here, as when I first post I didn't had the time to do it.

So, Axl has subtlety, see "The Garden", "Coma", "Locomotive", "Breakdown", "Estranged",

but his style is yes more as strait forward then the singers you've compared him with.

To be sincere about one's emotions is a quality that I appreciate at Axl, and he's conveying that into a brilliant writing style. And yes simple/direct is better, as that's where the art lies, that is to transmit emotions in the most simple manner.

I guess that after Jim Morrison, Axl Rose stands as "the rock-poet" in my books.

I never thought of Morrison style as being subtle, and that could be just because I understand his lyrics, but I do put him first if I'll have to make a list about singers lyrical style.

and when discussing lyrical style one can't look at it from the point of view of subtlety to be the first quality of an poet, rather the capacity to be meaningful.

so, there you have it, my take on the matter.

I think this thread is great, and... when seeing how "much" attention it got one must ask himself about the quality of the forum users and readers...

on n' all, it's a matter of perception.

Edited March 20, 2011 by STARABOSTES

[Anonymity]

Axl's lyrics are near perfect.

Most of the time.

as close to perfection as one could get i'd say

[MB.]

I love the lack of subtlety, I love the 'in your face' lyrics.

I like lyrics which really tells a story (like Dylan's or Wait's) or lyrics which are very direct (like Axl's).

So it's just fine by me.

[wasted]

I think Dylan is the only one who gets recognition from the literary world, maybe Stipe as well.

Dylan said to Keef "I could write Satisfaction, you could never write Desolation Row."

[steveysham]

I thought this way about a few tracks on Chinese. Namely This I love and Sorry and initially I was a little put off by these tracks. But recently I take the album as a whole to be about injustice. So to some extent Axl is fighting a war against injustice be it romantic, political, historical etc. He's saying "fuck you" to the shades of grey and that makes it a very powerful emotion. I think in these instances it works. You also have to be careful cause he could be ironic such as 'If the World'. I think 'This I love' is trying to capture a particular voice from someone whose been in a relationship.

For the most part lyrics will tend to be less subtle to poetry but poetry is a different form and not all poetic lyrics are good. When you have a piece of music which balances rhythm, emotion, imagery and mood and can still be counted in the genre of rock. You've done something right and for most part this is what Axl's lyrics do. If you can read into it and get your own value, then it's a good lyric. The author is dead. It gives birth to the reader.