Who was better at writing LYRICS?

[bran]

Breed is the best song on Nevermind. Couldnt give a fuck about the lyrics. When that song comes on its fuck shit up time.

thats what thrash metal is for lol

Yeah except that thrash metal is awful

*yawn*

your shit is so tired and played

[Johnny Drama]

Breed is the best song on Nevermind. Couldnt give a fuck about the lyrics. When that song comes on its fuck shit up time.

thats what thrash metal is for lol

No.

Breed is the best song on Nevermind. Couldnt give a fuck about the lyrics. When that song comes on its fuck shit up time.

thats what thrash metal is for lol

Yeah except that thrash metal is awful

Definite no.

Axl absolutely. Although Kurt's lyrics aren't bad by any means.

This.

[Ragnar]

Axl by miles NR, The Garden, GOE, DDM, DH, Coma, CW, Yesterdays, Breakdown, Locomotive, YCBM, Better, The Blues, TWAT, CITR and many more Kurt`s lyrics were mostly coke and heroin induced drunk, pathetic gibberish that hardly made any sense even Kurt admitted it himself

[Lithium]

Kurt. Axl's lyrics suck.

Not according to the poll results.

Because a poll on a Guns N' Roses message board is the perfect yardstick for lyrical quality.

Breed is the best song on Nevermind. Couldnt give a fuck about the lyrics. When that song comes on its fuck shit up time.

thats what thrash metal is for lol

Yes. Until you turn 16, cut your hair, quit wearing band shirts every day and grow up.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Kurt Cobain, by miles and miles and miles. Kurt was a magnificent lyricist. There is a lot of talk about Kurts lyrics being offhand and reeled off and i do think certain aspects were, he was a very protean sort of artist but make no mistake about it, those songs, lyrics and all, were the result of labour, you only need to check out his journals and the amount of crossing out and re-insertions and changes and polishing up and how, in their early rudimentary forms, lyrics from one song could be found on another and vice versa, the more reeled off aspects that were left in there were done so on purpose because sometimes, when you ad lib, some pretty cool shit comes out.

I see Bran criticising the lyrics to Breed there, i think those are wonderful lyrics, it's like a plea to love, it's someone that loves somebody so much that he'll just do anything to be with them, it sounds a million times more sincere than anything on November Rain or Sweet Child O Mine i reckon, there's something needy and desperate to them, which in turn gives them a more human quality, they give off a sense of emotional honesty whereas, quite frankly, Sweet Child O Mine and November Rain sound like fuckin' Hallmark Cards in comparison.

It's not the easiest comparison to make anyway because Axls style is very direct and Kurts more kind of set mood or tone or gave you like a set of images and then like one line or a couplet might tie the whole thing together or give you 4 or 5 different possible interpretation, which to my mind makes Kurt work more organic and alive because that creativity doesn't stop at the artist, each audience member can take something different from it, whereas songs like SCOM and November Rain are reasonably blunt.

Axls lyrics sound great when sung, which is what they're fuckin' meant to be so all credit to him there but Kurts worked when sung, they look great on paper, it's brilliant stuff.

Polly, see, a song like Polly could NEVER come out of a writer like Axl Rose, never, not in a million years. Writing a song, sympathetic to the victim, about a rape, from the perspective of the attacker, without clearly stating so in the lyrics and yet EVERYBODY gets that it's a sympathetic song, just by listening to it, even though the whole thing is written from the rapist perspective, Jesus Christ, do you realise the talent it takes to pull off something like that?!?! I mean listen to Polly, listen to the lyrics, read em...how is it that that song IMMEDIATELY sounds a sympathetic song? I honestly can't vouch for it. He's writing about a kidnapping/rape and there's lines in there about boredom, thirst, hunger, back pains, fuckin'...the vision that requires...and the heart, i totally get what Bob Dylan said when he heard Polly when he said the boy has heart, he's writing from the perspective of the attacker and he's writing these sort of observational lyrics from that perspective and it works but even which that perspective in mind the things he writes about hint at a kind of caring in a roundabout way. The only way that it's really commital is in the sense that it is talking about the victims pain and plight.

Now tell me when Axl has every approached writing something that fuckin' good?

Drain You is like one of the most beautiful love songs i've ever heard and a lot of that is to do with the originality of his vision cuz, OK, Axl, well played, nice love songs but come on, walking in the rain and her hair reminds of me of such and such and etc etc, it's sweet, it really is and when sung, it works brilliantly but it's also very very trite, you have to engage in some degree in the suspension of ones corn-o-meter to embrace those songs. And then look at how Cobain writes a lyrics:

"chew your meat for you, pass it back and forth, in a passionate kiss from my mouth to yours"

How fuckin amazing is that? How fuckin different, how original, how fuckin' weird yet compelling is that as a line? It's really subtle in it's own way, a lot of Kurt songs have this sort of theme of like servitude through mutual need, chew your meat FOR you, i think the guy was a closet careworker there's this thing of feeding and caring for and weakness and that weakness being served and consequently empowered by love. That kinda shit takes fuckin' intelligence and talent and an inate way with words and it will always beat your run of the mill "oh baby, i'm all alone, on phone, without a home, listening to the dial tone" bullshit any fuckin' day.

There was a lot of pisstaking in Kurt lyrics too, a lot of cynicism so it was this balance between a sort of extreme cynicism juxtaposed with like, extreme childlike idealism, especially regarding ideas of love and such, they struck a perfect balance.

Sliver, every single person that reads this fuckin' post WISHES they could've wrote that song, how amazing is that song, how universal is that song, everybody understands that song on some level, everyones been a child before, everyones been placed somewhere by their parents they didn't wannabe and when your at that age thats your entire world and your emotional responses, what ever way they manifest themselves, to you at that age, it's as good as the end of the fuckin' world and Kurt tapped into that perfectly.

I'm gonna shut the fuck up now before i end up categorically going through Kurt Cobain entire fuckin' musical output song by song and explaining why i think it's fuckin' amazing.

So yeah, Kurt vs Axl? Pfft, Kurt was perhaps the greatest songwriter of our times, Axl was just very good. Well, good.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and possibly offend some people here but i think a great many of the people that criticise Kurts lyrics, particularly people that just write them off completely and say they're like, total garbage, are perhaps a touch too thick for em.

With all due respect to people and their taste and their inclinations, i've read posts on this forum before now lauding GnRs Sympathy for the Devil cover and one of the best songs ever recorded so uh, yeah...

I don't just think Kurts lyrics are better than Axls, i think they belong in a whole other category, Axls is sort of above average or very good hard rock lyricism whereas Kurts is just like...without quite hitting their fuckin' level of dogs-bollocks-ness, Axls shit shines among good music, Kurt shines in amongst great music.

Edited August 31, 2012 by sugaraylen

[Ragnar]

Kurt Cobain, by miles and miles and miles. Kurt was a magnificent lyricist. There is a lot of talk about Kurts lyrics being offhand and reeled off and i do think certain aspects were, he was a very protean sort of artist but make no mistake about it, those songs, lyrics and all, were the result of labour, you only need to check out his journals and the amount of crossing out and re-insertions and changes and polishing up and how, in their early rudimentary forms, lyrics from one song could be found on another and vice versa, the more reeled off aspects that were left in there were done so on purpose because sometimes, when you ad lib, some pretty cool shit comes out.

I see Bran criticising the lyrics to Breed there, i think those are wonderful lyrics, it's like a plea to love, it's someone that loves somebody so much that he'll just do anything to be with them, it sounds a million times more sincere than anything on November Rain or Sweet Child O Mine i reckon, there's something needy and desperate to them, which in turn gives them a more human quality, they give off a sense of emotional honesty whereas, quite frankly, Sweet Child O Mine and November Rain sound like fuckin' Hallmark Cards in comparison.

It's not the easiest comparison to make anyway because Axls style is very direct and Kurts more kind of set mood or tone or gave you like a set of images and then like one line or a couplet might tie the whole thing together or give you 4 or 5 different possible interpretation, which to my mind makes Kurt work more organic and alive because that creativity doesn't stop at the artist, each audience member can take something different from it, whereas songs like SCOM and November Rain are reasonably blunt.

Axls lyrics sound great when sung, which is what they're fuckin' meant to be so all credit to him there but Kurts worked when sung, they look great on paper, it's brilliant stuff.

Polly, see, a song like Polly could NEVER come out of a writer like Axl Rose, never, not in a million years. Writing a song, sympathetic to the victim, about a rape, from the perspective of the attacker, without clearly stating so in the lyrics and yet EVERYBODY gets that it's a sympathetic song, just by listening to it, even though the whole thing is written from the rapist perspective, Jesus Christ, do you realise the talent it takes to pull off something like that?!?! I mean listen to Polly, listen to the lyrics, read em...how is it that that song IMMEDIATELY sounds a sympathetic song? I honestly can't vouch for it. He's writing about a kidnapping/rape and there's lines in there about boredom, thirst, hunger, back pains, fuckin'...the vision that requires...and the heart, i totally get what Bob Dylan said when he heard Polly when he said the boy has heart, he's writing from the perspective of the attacker and he's writing these sort of observational lyrics from that perspective and it works but even which that perspective in mind the things he writes about hint at a kind of caring in a roundabout way. The only way that it's really commital is in the sense that it is talking about the victims pain and plight.

Now tell me when Axl has every approached writing something that fuckin' good?

Drain You is like one of the most beautiful love songs i've ever heard and a lot of that is to do with the originality of his vision cuz, OK, Axl, well played, nice love songs but come on, walking in the rain and her hair reminds of me of such and such and etc etc, it's sweet, it really is and when sung, it works brilliantly but it's also very very trite, you have to engage in some degree in the suspension of ones corn-o-meter to embrace those songs. And then look at how Cobain writes a lyrics:

"chew your meat for you, pass it back and forth, in a passionate kiss from my mouth to yours"

How fuckin amazing is that? How fuckin different, how original, how fuckin' weird yet compelling is that as a line? It's really subtle in it's own way, a lot of Kurt songs have this sort of theme of like servitude through mutual need, chew your meat FOR you, i think the guy was a closet careworker there's this thing of feeding and caring for and weakness and that weakness being served and consequently empowered by love. That kinda shit takes fuckin' intelligence and talent and an inate way with words and it will always beat your run of the mill "oh baby, i'm all alone, on phone, without a home, listening to the dial tone" bullshit any fuckin' day.

There was a lot of pisstaking in Kurt lyrics too, a lot of cynicism so it was this balance between a sort of extreme cynicism juxtaposed with like, extreme childlike idealism, especially regarding ideas of love and such, they struck a perfect balance.

Sliver, every single person that reads this fuckin' post WISHES they could've wrote that song, how amazing is that song, how universal is that song, everybody understands that song on some level, everyones been a child before, everyones been placed somewhere by their parents they didn't wannabe and when your at that age thats your entire world and your emotional responses, what ever way they manifest themselves, to you at that age, it's as good as the end of the fuckin' world and Kurt tapped into that perfectly.

I'm gonna shut the fuck up now before i end up categorically going through Kurt Cobain entire fuckin' musical output song by song and explaining why i think it's fuckin' amazing.

So yeah, Kurt vs Axl? Pfft, Kurt was perhaps the greatest songwriter of our times, Axl was just very good. Well, good.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and possibly offend some people here but i think a great many of the people that criticise Kurts lyrics, particularly people that just write them off completely and say they're like, total garbage, are perhaps a touch too thick for em.

With all due respect to people and their taste and their inclinations, i've read posts on this forum before now lauding GnRs Sympathy for the Devil cover and one of the best songs ever recorded so uh, yeah...

I don't just think Kurts lyrics are better than Axls, i think they belong in a whole other category, Axls is sort of above average or very good hard rock lyricism whereas Kurts is just like...without quite hitting their fuckin' level of dogs-bollocks-ness, Axls shit shines among good music, Kurt shines in amongst great music.

Too damn long did n`t read average lyricists can`t write lyrics like Coma Kurt`s nutpluggers` theories and assumptions about his greatness is fucking lolsworthy thank god these theories are result of their rich imagination

[Guest Len B'stard]

Too damn long did n`t read

But you thought you'd comment anyway?

average lyricists can`t write lyrics like Coma

I thought you didn't read it? I see you're a Coma fan, thats suprising, thought it might be too long for ya.

Kurt`s nutpluggers` theories and assumptions about his greatness is fucking lolsworthy

Assumptions? How about fact, Kurt Cobain is a legend, whether you like it or not, these are not theories, this shit is pretty commonly accepted, when you have millions of fans, the respect and admiration of your peers as an exceptional artist, spearhead a fuckin' movement that, for better or worse changes popular music in your time, THAT is pretty much the definition of greatness.

thank god these theories are result of their rich imagination

This is my favorite bit. So all of the above the respect Kurt had and still has from his peers, the millions of fans, the being lauded as the artist of his generation, the spearheading of a movement, this is a result of my rich imagination, HOWEVER, Axl Rose being some kind of John Lennonesque genius, something that, funnily enough, is only ever asserted on his fan messageboards, thats reality yeah?

[Redhead74]

Jesus Lenny, I reckon if you tried to convince me that the sky isn't blue, it never was blue and is never going to be blue, you'd succeed! I hadn't thought that much about the lyrics honestly and in fairness when both those bands were really big I was a teenager and teenagers don't think about a lot of things in great detail, do they? Well I didn't anyway But I'm definitely gonna have to go back over it all and listen from the perspective of an adult now. Well said!

[Guest Satanisk_Slakt]

Kurt. By a lot.

Yup.

How can anyone even consider voting for Axl in this poll?

[Guest Satanisk_Slakt]

We need a new "who betta?" thread.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Satanisk_Slakt

[Rovim]

Kurt. By a lot.

Yup.

How can anyone even consider voting for Axl in this poll?

I guess I could, and voted Axl in the poll cause to me, he was better at writing lyrics I could connect with.

If music is just this expression, a reflection of a person, and lyrics are a big part of this obviously, then it's natural imo that some musicians that write great lyrics, cause they are interesting human beings and very talented at expressing themselves that way,

will create shit that I can relate to more compared to others, just as great or even better musicians that I just don't have a strong of a connection with their lyrics.

Kurt was a great lyricist imo. I just think Axl perfectly expressed exactly what he wanted every time he wrote something, lyrics wise.

It was very clear, just very Axl like. I think that as a person he's very emotional, and that sort of power that is so present in his lyrics speaks to me and makes me think that maybe deep emotions like that, 'negative' too are valid somehow.

I just feel like it's very honest and warm, no matter how ugly or fucked up it can get when I read Axl's lyrics.

With Kurt it's completely different. It's detached in a sort of understanding way. It's from a distance, but there is something very real there. I like that a lot, it can be very personal but as mature as his thoughts could get, there was something not fully formed yet imo, and it lacked certain qualities that I've had from the very first time I've read Axl's lyrics.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Rovim

[Guest Len B'stard]

Kurt. By a lot.

Yup.

How can anyone even consider voting for Axl in this poll?

I guess I could, and voted Axl in the poll cause to me, he was better at writing lyrics I could connect with.

If music is just this expression, a reflection of a person, and lyrics are a big part of this obviously, then it's natural imo that some musicians that write great lyrics, cause they are interesting human beings and very talented at expressing themselves that way,

will create shit that I can relate to more compared to others, just as great or even better musicians that I just don't have a strong of a connection with their lyrics.

Kurt was a great lyricist imo. I just think Axl perfectly expressed exactly what he wanted every time he wrote somthing, lyrics wise.

It was very clear, just very Axl like. I think that as a person he's very emotional, and that sort of power that is so present in his lyrics speaks to me and makes me think that maybe deep emotions like that, 'negative' too are valid somehow.

I just feel like it's very honest and warm, no matter how ugly or fucked up it can get when I read Axl's lyrics.

With Kurt it's completely different. It's detached in a sort of understanding way. It's from a distance, but there is something very real there. I like that a lot, it can be very personal but as mature as his thoughts could get, there was something not fully formed yet imo, and it lacked certain qualities that I've had from the very first time I've read Axl's lyrics.

Great post

[Guest Satanisk_Slakt]

But saying Axl is a better lyricist than Kurt was is like saying that Iron Maiden's cheesy lyrics are better than The Doors. It's different leagues. Look, I don't even care much about lyrics myself, but it's still so obvious to me. Yeah, Axl's lyrics are great compared to Poison's or Skid Row's, but put it into some perspective here, it's Kurt Cobain he's compared to. A lyrical genius. it's not a matter of opinion to say that Kurt was far superior to Axl in this. It's a fact. Look at that other thread about who's the better pianist of Axl and Beethoven. Would you vote for Axl just because you like his music better than Beethoven, or would you be reasonable enough to be able to realise that Beethoven was far superior to Axl as a pianist?

[Guest Len B'stard]

But saying Axl is a better lyricist than Kurt was is like saying that Iron Maiden's cheesy lyrics are better than The Doors. It's different leagues. Look, I don't even care much about lyrics myself, but it's still so obvious to me. Yeah, Axl's lyrics are great compared to Poison's or Skid Row's, but put it into some perspective here, it's Kurt Cobain he's compared to. A lyrical genius. it's not a matter of opinion to say that Kurt was far superior to Axl in this. It's a fact. Look at that other thread about who's the better pianist of Axl and Beethoven. Would you vote for Axl just because you like his music better than Beethoven, or would you be reasonable enough to be able to realise that Beethoven was far superior to Axl as a pianist?

In defense of Axl though, aren't a set of lyrics as good as the response they get from people? For example, someone writes high fallutin intellectually stimulating lyrics that a handful of people "get", what good is it if people like Axl can write straightforward lyrics that appeal to and evoke a response from masses of people, whoose the better lyricist? Isn't it about whats effective?

[Redhead74]

^ it depends on the criteria for judgment I guess. Maybe it can be viewed from many different angles. All points discussed here are fair and valid IMO.

[Ragnar]

But saying Axl is a better lyricist than Kurt was is like saying that Iron Maiden's cheesy lyrics are better than The Doors. It's different leagues. Look, I don't even care much about lyrics myself, but it's still so obvious to me. Yeah, Axl's lyrics are great compared to Poison's or Skid Row's, but put it into some perspective here, it's Kurt Cobain he's compared to. A lyrical genius. it's not a matter of opinion to say that Kurt was far superior to Axl in this. It's a fact. Look at that other thread about who's the better pianist of Axl and Beethoven. Would you vote for Axl just because you like his music better than Beethoven, or would you be reasonable enough to be able to realise that Beethoven was far superior to Axl as a pianist?

Lyrical genius ? Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Leonard Cohen to name few are ten times better lyricists then Kurt ever was or could ever dream of being don`t overrate him to death

Edited August 31, 2012 by Son of a Guns

[Guest Len B'stard]

But saying Axl is a better lyricist than Kurt was is like saying that Iron Maiden's cheesy lyrics are better than The Doors. It's different leagues. Look, I don't even care much about lyrics myself, but it's still so obvious to me. Yeah, Axl's lyrics are great compared to Poison's or Skid Row's, but put it into some perspective here, it's Kurt Cobain he's compared to. A lyrical genius. it's not a matter of opinion to say that Kurt was far superior to Axl in this. It's a fact. Look at that other thread about who's the better pianist of Axl and Beethoven. Would you vote for Axl just because you like his music better than Beethoven, or would you be reasonable enough to be able to realise that Beethoven was far superior to Axl as a pianist?

Lyrical genius ? Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Leonard Cohen to name few are ten times better lyricists then Kurt ever was or could ever dream of being don`t overrate him to death

Could you explain to me why you think the above mentioned are great? As in your criteria for judgement?

[Ragnar]

Too damn long did n`t read

But you thought you'd comment anyway?

average lyricists can`t write lyrics like Coma

I thought you didn't read it? I see you're a Coma fan, thats suprising, thought it might be too long for ya.

Kurt`s nutpluggers` theories and assumptions about his greatness is fucking lolsworthy

Assumptions? How about fact, Kurt Cobain is a legend, whether you like it or not, these are not theories, this shit is pretty commonly accepted, when you have millions of fans, the respect and admiration of your peers as an exceptional artist, spearhead a fuckin' movement that, for better or worse changes popular music in your time, THAT is pretty much the definition of greatness.

thank god these theories are result of their rich imagination

This is my favorite bit. So all of the above the respect Kurt had and still has from his peers, the millions of fans, the being lauded as the artist of his generation, the spearheading of a movement, this is a result of my rich imagination, HOWEVER, Axl Rose being some kind of John Lennonesque genius, something that, funnily enough, is only ever asserted on his fan messageboards, thats reality yeah?

Can you point out where I said that Axl is some kind of John Lennonesque genius ? I don`t deny that Kurt is a legend my point is, he does n`t deserve such exeggarated worship and praise he gets and whether he spearheaded new movement or not is debatable yeah Nirvana helped "Grunge" to break mainstream but Soundgarden. Alice In Chains and Pearl Jam predate Nirvana Mike McGready`s and Stone Gossard`s pre Pearl Jam band Mother Love Bone is considered to be one of the pioneers of "Grunge" both were great lyricists and musicians ( were `cause Kurt`s dead ) but I prefer Axl`s lyrics, vocals, melodies and music I like Nirvana but I`ll take GNR over them any day of the week!!!

[luciusfunk]

But saying Axl is a better lyricist than Kurt was is like saying that Iron Maiden's cheesy lyrics are better than The Doors. It's different leagues. Look, I don't even care much about lyrics myself, but it's still so obvious to me. Yeah, Axl's lyrics are great compared to Poison's or Skid Row's, but put it into some perspective here, it's Kurt Cobain he's compared to. A lyrical genius. it's not a matter of opinion to say that Kurt was far superior to Axl in this. It's a fact. Look at that other thread about who's the better pianist of Axl and Beethoven. Would you vote for Axl just because you like his music better than Beethoven, or would you be reasonable enough to be able to realise that Beethoven was far superior to Axl as a pianist?

Fact, eh?

I think it's more opinion: a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

[Redhead74]

Look at that other thread about who's the better pianist of Axl and Beethoven. Would you vote for Axl just because you like his music better than Beethoven, or would you be reasonable enough to be able to realise that Beethoven was far superior to Axl as a pianist?

This point is a little off topic but I just can't let it pass. The thread about Axl and Beethoven was not about judging their abilities as pianists, it was just a general thread about preference of one over the other. I don't think anyone in any seriousness would claim that Axl is a better pianist than Beethoven was.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Can you point out where I said that Axl is some kind of John Lennonesque genius ?

I didn't say you said it, it was a question, look at the sentence, it ends in a question mark. It's saying, OK, you're speaking against Kurt in a Kurt vs Axl thing, despite Kurts obvious credentials, so what is it that you're trying to say regarding Axl, being that this is a comparitive discussion.

I

don`t deny that Kurt is a legend my point is, he does n`t deserve such exeggarated worship and praise he gets

Which aspect of my praise do you feel was exaggerated?

whether he spearheaded new movement or not is debatable yeah Nirvana helped "Grunge" to break mainstream but Soundgarden. Alice In Chains and Pearl Jam predate Nirvana Mike McGready`s and Stone Gossard`s pre Pearl Jam band Mother Love Bone is considered to be one of the pioneers of "Grunge" both were great lyricists and musicians ( were `cause Kurt`s dead )

This bit is just plain bullshit, just because other bands pre-date Nirvana don't mean that Nirvana couldn't spearhead the movement, Jesus, there were british bands playing rock n roll before The Beatles, you can't say that because of that The Beatles didn't spearhead the movement, they were the ones that bought it to international acclaim, same as Nirvana did with grunge, he broke grunge to the mainstream. It weren't a case of helped break, it was a case of signed to a major record label, blew up fuckin' huge and the floodgates opened, yeah there were people signed to a major record label before Nirvana out of the movement but it's the blowing up huge that bought the movement to peoples attention and that my friend, was Nirvanas doing.

[dalsh327]

Axl's songwriting stepped up for Chinese Democracy in my opinion. The older songs were more about serving the song, what the song made him feel, and what flowed out of his pen at the time. It would be kind of cool if he put out his original lyrics and revisions, and the stuff he wrote that will never be put to music some day.

I think Cobain was able to do the Dylan thing and obscure what he was writing about, and play with words. If the debate's over Nevermind & In Utero vs Appetite and AFD, Kurt at that time was better with how he used words, Axl didn't have as much guesswork in what he was writing about. Chinese Democracy was a whole other way of writing for him. It just seems like he went from rhyming stuff together to actually composing a song and putting effort into the words. But I know in songwriting, the words themselves have a pace and a rhythm to them, and when you hear people developing a song, they're usually a few lines of words, and a lot of ad libbed stuff. Sometimes they keep the ad libs in the song. A song can be 80 percent finished, and it might take someone else in the band 5 seconds to throw a couple of lines in, and it's done. Songwriting credit for them sometimes.

Leonard Cohen was in a folk group in Canada I think, but he was known in poetry circles, and Dylan was an influence for him to basically find a way to put his poetry to music. Same with Patti Smith, she was more of a spoken word artist (& rock critic, funny enough) who wound up in a rock band, and not being a great singer, was def. a major influence on punk as far as throwing herself into reckless abandon when she got up on stage and sang, yet a really sweet woman. I love "Just Kids", it was a snapshot of NYC in the late 60s-early 70s where she was right there in the mix of things and got to know all the cool people, the real Jersey Girl crossing the river into Manhattan and finding her voice as an artist.

I hear a lot of Michael Stipe in how Cobain wrote.

[Guest Len B'stard]

But saying Axl is a better lyricist than Kurt was is like saying that Iron Maiden's cheesy lyrics are better than The Doors. It's different leagues. Look, I don't even care much about lyrics myself, but it's still so obvious to me. Yeah, Axl's lyrics are great compared to Poison's or Skid Row's, but put it into some perspective here, it's Kurt Cobain he's compared to. A lyrical genius. it's not a matter of opinion to say that Kurt was far superior to Axl in this. It's a fact. Look at that other thread about who's the better pianist of Axl and Beethoven. Would you vote for Axl just because you like his music better than Beethoven, or would you be reasonable enough to be able to realise that Beethoven was far superior to Axl as a pianist?

Lyrical genius ? Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Leonard Cohen to name few are ten times better lyricists then Kurt ever was or could ever dream of being don`t overrate him to death

Could you explain to me why you think the above mentioned are great? As in your criteria for judgement?

Let`s start I don`t have too much time so I`ll be as brief as possible I prefer Dylan`s and Lennon`s lyrics to Kurt`s `cause I can relate more to them, their lyrics are more thought provoking, honest and mature not just teenage angst and frustration written on paper when you listen to Working Class Hero, Like a Rolling Stone, Masters of War or Woman Is the hooray for tolerance! of the World you realize that they were ahead of their time they did something innovative new and fresh Masters of Was is as relevant today as it was in early 60`s this is impact for me, timeless influence that`ll never fade away I don`t see SLTS being as influential now as it was back in 91 it was for short time and then vanished from the earth Kurt could n`t hold either Dylan`s or Lennon`s jocks don`t get me wrong Kurt has brilliant lyrical highlights in my opinion his best set of lyrics can be found in Polly, Hear Shaped Box and Something in the Way but still he`s not even close to aforementioned greats to claim that Kurt is a lyrical genius sounds bit bald to me!

Thats sort of a personal preference criteria though, thats sort of like explaining the thing you respond to, greatness is kinda more universal than that, i'm talking about variables grounded in reality, boxes that you gotta tick that signifying a certain transcedence over other artists, whether that be record sales or acclaim or...y'know, sort of more fact-based variables as opposed to your personal feelings, cuz those differ from person to person.

But aside from all that, just looking at your post you say some really quite strange things. You seem to perhaps be prey to a sort of blinkered retro-nostalgia thing cuz, OK, for example, you cite a lack of maturity in Kurts songwriting and then you cite Working Class Hero by John Lennon as an example of thought provoking maturity. Have you actually listened to the song you're talking about?

As soon as you're born they make you feel small

By giving you no time instead of it all

Til the pain is so big you feel nothing at all

No teenage angst there, no? A little maybe?

They hurt you at home and they hit you at school

They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool

Till you're so ****ing crazy you can't follow their rules

A working class hero is something to be

Still no teen angst?

When they've tortured and scared you for twenty-odd years

Then they expect you to pick a career

When you can't really function you're so full of fear

A working class hero is something to be

Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV

And you think you're so clever and classless and free

It really makes me wonder as to what level of maturity you're at yourself because, and this coming from an avowed Lennon fanatic. Deeply fanatical about this man but i'm not fuckin' blind either and i don't ride someone just cuz i like their music, a HUGE case could be made for Lennon being very very immature in his songwriting, particularly the more political stuff, i mean this is your typical left wing teen student stuff really, isn't it? Whats mature and insightful about it, really? And "ahead of it's time", it's pretty much college campus stuff. I love it and i think it's VERY powerful as a song but not cuz it's mature, thats just ridiculous, i like it for the innocence of it's perspective and it's directness but to call Lennon mature and then slag Kurt off for being immature and angsty is to know nothing about Lennon.

I mean Lennon, mature, really? "Attica State, Attica State, we're all mates with Attica State...free the prisoners, jail the judges, free all prisoners everywhere, all they want is truth and justice all they need is love and care"

Thats a mature appraisal of our judiciary/penal system, is it? I could go on ALL day with this stuff, Lennon was, by his own admission, the absolute opposite of mature in his songwriting, he was dreamy and quixotic and idealistic and extremely damaged, obssessed almost, with his youth and the resultant angst, Jesus, listen to the fucking song Mother, "Momma don't go, Daddy come home!", not a million miles from "grandma take me home, grandma take me home" is it?

I mean think about this shit man..

And Masters of War, again, mature, really?!?! Have you heard the song? You think thats someone with a mature perspective assessing the world of politics and the way it works and what those people are due?

And I hope that you die

And your death'll come soon

I will follow your casket

In the pale afternoon

And I'll watch while you're lowered

Down to your deathbed

And I'll stand over your grave

'Til I'm sure that you're dead.

This is maturity, is it? This is someone whoose perspectives on world politics are to be taken seriously, yeah? Now again, i love Bobby Dylan, i think he's an amazing artist but maturity man, really? And honesty as well, you think this stuff is all honesty, this is honestly the way these millionaires feel as they write songs for the people.

Seriously, maturity, have you listened to Imagine lately? This is a guy that had to hire out entire floors of the Dakota just to store his extra shit in, singing about no possessions? (now i'm being immature).

I really don't think you've thought your ideas through fella. And, y'know, just to reiterate, i love John Lennon and Bob Dylan, Lennon in particular in a fanatical way. Dylan and Lennons stuff (in Dylans case particularly earlier stuff) was far from mature, in fact it was purposely emotive and made to appeal to peoples feelings and emotions to evoke strong responses, it is the very opposite of mature. Dylan was capable of great maturity i think, with stuff like Only A Pawn In Their Game, which is saying something quite insightful if you think about it, i think Masters of War was purposely and unashamedly immature though.

You cited some quite awful examples. Sorry if this has been too long.

[Ragnar]

Let`s start I don`t have too much time so I`ll be as brief as possible I prefer Dylan`s and Lennon`s lyrics to Kurt`s `cause I can relate more to them, their lyrics are more thought provoking, honest and mature not just teenage angst and frustration written on paper when you listen to Working Class Hero, Like a Rolling Stone, Masters of War or Woman Is the hooray for tolerance! of the World you realize that they were ahead of their time they did something innovative new and fresh Masters of Was is as relevant today as it was in early 60`s this is impact for me, timeless influence that`ll never fade away I don`t see SLTS being as influential now as it was back in 91 it was for short time and then vanished from the earth Kurt could n`t hold either Dylan`s or Lennon`s jocks don`t get me wrong Kurt has brilliant lyrical highlights in my opinion his best set of lyrics can be found in Polly, Hear Shaped Box and Something in the Way but still he`s not even close to aforementioned greats to claim that Kurt is a lyrical genius sounds bit bald to me!

[Guest Len B'stard]

A PINT OF WEBSTERS!