Why did the original Punks hate The Stones, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd etc?

[Vincent Vega]

Why did the original Punks in the 70s hate on The Stones, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd and other bands? I mean Pink Floyd and ELO and Elton John I can understand their hate for, but The Stones were basically punks before the term was invented, at least musically and were still putting out pretty lewd and out of margins material in the '70s; Led Zeppelin had come and shaken up rock in '69 and had been putting out hard hitting records ever since....I don't get why they went after the two bands who helped redefine what raw rock n' roll was all about....I cna understand them going after ELO and Boston, a lot of that was very safe and parent friendly and pompous....But in the '70s, the Stones weren't yet a family institution and Led Zeppelin was still very much the band of American teenagers....

[Guest Len B'stard]

They didn't hate The Stones or Zeppelin, they just found them ridiculous and ridiculed them and that don't really take much understanding does it, everybody does that, it's the general concensus about all them lot, just like when you open the papers and it's like "Wrinkley Rocker Ronnie Wood Has Tryst With Au Pair Girl' or some such bullshit, it's just the way of the world, isn't it? Thats how it began anyway, people in magazines asking John Lydon what he thought of such and such band and he just took the piss out of them and a lot of people agreed and some took that pisstaking to levels of like, hatred and attack etc but generally speaking they just took the piss out of them and considered them foolish and thats no news, thats always been that way.

There's a sly under-current of pisstaking in most write ups involving the Stones and it's been that way for decades.

Edited June 14, 2013 by sugaraylen

[Vincent Vega]

They didn't hate The Stones or Zeppelin, they just found them ridiculous and ridiculed them and that don't really take much understanding does it, everybody does that, it's the general concensus about all them lot, just like when you open the papers and it's like "Wrinkley Rocker Ronnie Wood Has Tryst With Au Pair Girl' or some such bullshit, it's just the way of the world, isn't it? Thats how it began anyway, people in magazines asking John Lydon what he thought of such and such band and he just took the piss out of them and a lot of people agreed and some took that pisstaking to levels of like, hatred and attack etc but generally speaking they just took the piss out of them and considered them foolish and thats no news, thats always been that way.

There's a sly under-current of pisstaking in most write ups involving the Stones and it's been that way for decades.

You'd think though that John Lyndon or Sid Vicious would've listened to a Stones or a Zeppelin record growing up. I mean Exile on Main St (or going back even further to their 60s rock songs) is about as raw and unpolished as one could get in the '70s. And I mean the early Zeppelin records are straight blues rock, basically amplified, soulful sort of blues, with a lot of purity and raw sexual energy. I mean they didn't really start doing fantasy lyrics and stuff till their 4th album or so....

Edited June 14, 2013 by Vincent Vega

[Crash Diet]

this was your 1000th thread about this topic
i wish you were banned from this section....
enough is enough man, deal with this in PM with the appropriate members...

Edited June 14, 2013 by Crash Diet

[Guest Len B'stard]

Miser you look at this shit the wrong way, it's just music, it's not a war, a young man growing up probably listened to all sorts of music, Sid Vicious used to like ABBA for crying out loud, it's just the fans that take this shit all way too seriously, everybody listens to all kinds of music, it's everywhere, John Lydon talks in his youth about The Beatles being played tons around the house, you have such a 'design for life' mentality in your approach to music, it's just songs, entertainment.

John Lydon listened to Hawkwind, stuff like Can thats pretty much Prog Rock, or Kraftwerk and...Reggae and soul and Donna Summer he's professed a liking for as far back as 1979, it's just music man, drop your shoulders, learn to enjoy yourself.

[DieselDaisy]

The problem with your argument is, you seem to be discussing The Stones circa 1968-72 when the band were genuinly dangerous. The Stones changed sometime around 73/74 and became the cash grabbing monster we have today. Turn up at massive stadiums, blow up a few giant inflatables and release them into the air, play the hits to crowds miles away, grab the cash and leave. Jagger became a jetsetter and, establishment and the music had declined anyhow. This was the Stones the earliest punks faced.

[Vincent Vega]

Miser you look at this shit the wrong way, it's just music, it's not a war, a young man growing up probably listened to all sorts of music, Sid Vicious used to like ABBA for crying out loud, it's just the fans that take this shit all way too seriously, everybody listens to all kinds of music, it's everywhere, John Lydon talks in his youth about The Beatles being played tons around the house, you have such a 'design for life' mentality in your approach to music, it's just songs, entertainment.

John Lydon listened to Hawkwind, stuff like Can thats pretty much Prog Rock, or Kraftwerk and...Reggae and soul and Donna Summer he's professed a liking for as far back as 1979, it's just music man, drop your shoulders, learn to enjoy yourself.

I enjoy everything but I enjoy the "kafabe" aspect of it, the pouting and little piss taking and the little wars between fans of this and that genre, it's kinda interesting to see, and how it starts is fascinating. I tend to think that the mid to late 70s were one of the most interesting times in music history, at least modern day, because you had so much going on; Rock of course and all of it's various subgenres all dominant, Metal beginning to separate into it's own subgenres, Glam hanging around and transforming into what it'd become in the 80s; New Wave rising slowly; Disco coming out of nowhere and outshining everything else for a few years; the earliest rumblings of rap beats thumping in the streets; Soul, R&B and the like further diversifying, and finally Punk emerging amidst all this.

And then it seems like you had, at least music fans in the late 70s, a three way war. The Rock kids hated the Disco kings; The Punks were disliked by both crowds it'd seem and probably didn't have much tolerance for Disco I'd imagine. I'm talking on the fan level, not the bands, but the bands helped stoke this sort of war for dominance with the piss taking and the press and media, being the lovers of drama that they are, pushed this 'war' and the kids ate it up. I mean there were instances of fights just over kids wearing "Disco sucks" pins. And as Zint said, if you were a punk in the mid-late 70s, you had legitimate fear of being treated like a weirdo, an outsider, a freak or even getting bashed. So I just find it all a very fascinating time musically, and the little feuds between the various groups and moreso their fans......

[Guest Len B'stard]

Miser you look at this shit the wrong way, it's just music, it's not a war, a young man growing up probably listened to all sorts of music, Sid Vicious used to like ABBA for crying out loud, it's just the fans that take this shit all way too seriously, everybody listens to all kinds of music, it's everywhere, John Lydon talks in his youth about The Beatles being played tons around the house, you have such a 'design for life' mentality in your approach to music, it's just songs, entertainment.

John Lydon listened to Hawkwind, stuff like Can thats pretty much Prog Rock, or Kraftwerk and...Reggae and soul and Donna Summer he's professed a liking for as far back as 1979, it's just music man, drop your shoulders, learn to enjoy yourself.

I enjoy everything but I enjoy the "kafabe" aspect of it, the pouting and little piss taking and the little wars between fans of this and that genre, it's kinda interesting to see, and how it starts is fascinating. I tend to think that the mid to late 70s were one of the most interesting times in music history, at least modern day, because you had so much going on; Rock of course and all of it's various subgenres all dominant, Metal beginning to separate into it's own subgenres, Glam hanging around and transforming into what it'd become in the 80s; New Wave rising slowly; Disco coming out of nowhere and outshining everything else for a few years; the earliest rumblings of rap beats thumping in the streets; Soul, R&B and the like further diversifying, and finally Punk emerging amidst all this.

And then it seems like you had, at least music fans in the late 70s, a three way war. The Rock kids hated the Disco kings; The Punks were disliked by both crowds it'd seem and probably didn't have much tolerance for Disco I'd imagine. I'm talking on the fan level, not the bands, but the bands helped stoke this sort of war for dominance with the piss taking and the press and media, being the lovers of drama that they are, pushed this 'war' and the kids ate it up. I mean there were instances of fights just over kids wearing "Disco sucks" pins. And as Zint said, if you were a punk in the mid-late 70s, you had legitimate fear of being treated like a weirdo, an outsider, a freak or even getting bashed. So I just find it all a very fascinating time musically, and the little feuds between the various groups and moreso their fans......

No you don't, thats just you making up a load of crap, it effects you deeply when people take the piss out of the music you like, you react like a tart and start lashing out and trying your best to somehow sting the person in question back, like a grown up having a tantrum

The whole heart of the matter with you i think, the crux of it, is that you think The Stones and Zep are the height of cool, that they're just unassailably cool and it bothers you when people take the piss out of them because you don't have any kind sense of humour about yourself and by extension the things you like, thats why you can't let go of this topic, because it troubles you deeply that this thing that you think is cool and edgy that there are people out there that just took the piss out of it and thought it was a load of shit, thats why you always lash out like a little girl at punk and punk bands, cuz you feel like you're being made fun of and you can't bear it.

Edited June 14, 2013 by sugaraylen

[Chinaski]

Billy Bragg said something interesting on WTF recently. He said that by 76 The Who and the Stones weren't really people any more. Zeppelin were off flying around in big planes etc

He said everything he loved about The Who he now got from The Jam but they were his age and spoke to him more. He said everything he loved about the Stones he could get from The Clash plus a load more.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Chinaski

[Zint]

This thread again, wow.

[DieselDaisy]

They were 'old farts'. It is that simple. Todays cutting edge is tommorrow's has been.

[Vincent Vega]

Miser you look at this shit the wrong way, it's just music, it's not a war, a young man growing up probably listened to all sorts of music, Sid Vicious used to like ABBA for crying out loud, it's just the fans that take this shit all way too seriously, everybody listens to all kinds of music, it's everywhere, John Lydon talks in his youth about The Beatles being played tons around the house, you have such a 'design for life' mentality in your approach to music, it's just songs, entertainment.

John Lydon listened to Hawkwind, stuff like Can thats pretty much Prog Rock, or Kraftwerk and...Reggae and soul and Donna Summer he's professed a liking for as far back as 1979, it's just music man, drop your shoulders, learn to enjoy yourself.

I enjoy everything but I enjoy the "kafabe" aspect of it, the pouting and little piss taking and the little wars between fans of this and that genre, it's kinda interesting to see, and how it starts is fascinating. I tend to think that the mid to late 70s were one of the most interesting times in music history, at least modern day, because you had so much going on; Rock of course and all of it's various subgenres all dominant, Metal beginning to separate into it's own subgenres, Glam hanging around and transforming into what it'd become in the 80s; New Wave rising slowly; Disco coming out of nowhere and outshining everything else for a few years; the earliest rumblings of rap beats thumping in the streets; Soul, R&B and the like further diversifying, and finally Punk emerging amidst all this.

And then it seems like you had, at least music fans in the late 70s, a three way war. The Rock kids hated the Disco kings; The Punks were disliked by both crowds it'd seem and probably didn't have much tolerance for Disco I'd imagine. I'm talking on the fan level, not the bands, but the bands helped stoke this sort of war for dominance with the piss taking and the press and media, being the lovers of drama that they are, pushed this 'war' and the kids ate it up. I mean there were instances of fights just over kids wearing "Disco sucks" pins. And as Zint said, if you were a punk in the mid-late 70s, you had legitimate fear of being treated like a weirdo, an outsider, a freak or even getting bashed. So I just find it all a very fascinating time musically, and the little feuds between the various groups and moreso their fans......

No you don't, thats just you making up a load of crap, it effects you deeply when people take the piss out of the music you like, you react like a tart and start lashing out and trying your best to somehow sting the person in question back, like a grown up having a tantrum

The whole heart of the matter with you i think, the crux of it, is that you think The Stones and Zep are the height of cool, that they're just unassailably cool and it bothers you when people take the piss out of them because you don't have any kind sense of humour about yourself and by extension the things you like, thats why you can't let go of this topic, because it troubles you deeply that this thing that you think is cool and edgy that there are people out there that just took the piss out of it and thought it was a load of shit, thats why you always lash out like a little girl at punk and punk bands, cuz you feel like you're being made fun of and you can't bear it.

It really doesn't effect me. I find it amusing....and I'm not lashing out? I was giving you a very reasoned reply from my POV, why I go over this, cause I said, I enjoy the kafabe aspect of it. It's amusing but also interesting.

It doesn't bother me when people take the piss out of them. Maybe at one time. But now? No. I don't hate punk or punk fans. I enjoy some punk (Ramones, Clash, Dead Boys, Patti Smith, Jim Carroll, Fear, proto-punk like The New York Dolls, etc), but the thing I dislike is what I see as elitism on the punk of some (not all) punk fans. But every genre has it's elitists. I don't tie myself or my conception of whatever into the Stones and Zep, they're just my favorite bands, but even still it doesn't really bug me when they're mocked.

I've mocked both of em at times myself. Mick's an old tart and has been a tart and a sell out since he married Bianca Jagger in '71 and has always been probably the biggest phony in the group, always selling himself to the newest fad, and they really haven't made anything truly interesting or ground breaking since the early '80s....And Led Zeppelin has it's share of cringeworthy fantasy dragon teenage silly lyrics no doubt and In Through the Out Door is pretty mediocre and has none of the magic the previous albums had, and by then, '79, they'd become a shadow of what they once were. And Page's violin solos seemed a tad too gimmicky and poofy.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Vincent Vega

[Guest Len B'stard]

t really doesn't effect me.

But it does, doesn't it?

I was giving you a very reasoned reply from my POV

Yeah and it took you 40 goes at making this thread to do it And still ain't sayin' much.

It doesn't bother me when people take the piss out of them. Maybe at one time. But now? No. I don't hate punk or punk fans. I enjoy some punk, but the thing I dislike is what I see as elitism on the punk of some (not all) punk fans. But every genre has it's elitists. I don't tie myself or my conception of whatever into the Stones and Zep, they're just my favorite bands, but even still it doesn't really bug me when they're mocked. I've mocked both of em at times myself. Mick's an old tart and has been a tart and a sell out since he married Bianca Jagger in '71 and has always been probably the biggest phony in the group, always selling himself to the newest fad....And Led Zeppelin has it's share of cringeworthy fantasy dragon lyrics no doubt and In Through the Out Door is pretty mediocre and has none of the magic, and by then, '79, they'd become a shadow of what they once were. And Page's violin solos seemed a tad too gimmicky and poofy.

You try WAYYY too hard Miser

[Vincent Vega]

t really doesn't effect me.

But it does, doesn't it?

I was giving you a very reasoned reply from my POV

Yeah and it took you 40 goes at making this thread to do it And still ain't sayin' much.

It doesn't bother me when people take the piss out of them. Maybe at one time. But now? No. I don't hate punk or punk fans. I enjoy some punk, but the thing I dislike is what I see as elitism on the punk of some (not all) punk fans. But every genre has it's elitists. I don't tie myself or my conception of whatever into the Stones and Zep, they're just my favorite bands, but even still it doesn't really bug me when they're mocked. I've mocked both of em at times myself. Mick's an old tart and has been a tart and a sell out since he married Bianca Jagger in '71 and has always been probably the biggest phony in the group, always selling himself to the newest fad....And Led Zeppelin has it's share of cringeworthy fantasy dragon lyrics no doubt and In Through the Out Door is pretty mediocre and has none of the magic, and by then, '79, they'd become a shadow of what they once were. And Page's violin solos seemed a tad too gimmicky and poofy.

You try WAYYY too hard Miser

I'm not trying. It's pretty much an accepted fact that Mick has been a sell out to the latest musical fads since the mid '70s, he clearly expressed his desire to move beyond rock as early as around that time, and as others said he joined the whole jetset crowd and became sort of...a total celebrity, part of the high society establishment....And to this day he's still big in that, he's the one that turned the Stones into an institution.

And Led Zep's empire was derailed by car accidents and tragedies starting in '75, Presence being perceived as a lesser product in '76, a turbulent, violent American tour that ended horribly, and finally them disappearing for most of '77 and '78 and as such falling off the radar only to come back with an overly experimental, half assed sort of album that tried too hard to be whatever was in.

Some Girls with the Stones succeeded because it was the Stones taking elements of punk and disco into their OWN style and mixing it up and doing those genres their way...In Through the Out Door failed because half the band was addled with drugs and instead of trying to make these new musical trends their own, they tried to be punk, they tried to be new wave, it wasn't Led Zep's take, it was Zep poorly playing a part or trying to.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Whatever

[Careful with that axe]

Johnny Rotten didn't hate Pink Floyd quite the opposite. He wore the Pink Floyd shirt that he defaced with "I Hate" to be snarky. It worked. Malcom McClaren picked him in the audition for his punk rock outfit. Sid Vicious was more than a tragic victim, he was an early fashion victim named after a hamster that bit him. Said of hamster,"Sid is Vicious". Does it matter if he publicly recognized good music? Nah.

[dalsh327]

The UK punks were more sad about what the Stones became, and Jagger's comments about it didn't help. I think Knebworth was where they were being written off as a dinosaur band. Mick also said some things about punk that didn't go over well.

I also think in the UK, it was a bigger part of mainstream media, and in the US, it was something that was more underground and unavailable to a lot of people, something you had to go search out, unless you were an artist or had a record store nearby that kept up on what was going on in England, maybe a college radio station that played it late at night.

There was also something more political about UK punk, some people had said it helped Thatcher get in office.

I just think they were kids wanting something to do, they were misfit kids going nowhere in life because the future looked pretty bleak, and I think 70s cinema captured a lot of that bleakness. Even when you watch Rocky and Saturday Night Fever, they show Rocky running or Tony dancing, but the overall tone of both films are about losers trying to get out of a bad situation. Maybe punk rock didn't go over in the US because they didn't need to have Johnny Rotten or Joe Strummer singing about how the world sucks and change has to happen now - they had Travis Bickle. Rocky, and Tony on the screen.

I also take into account the post Vietnam environment of Americans feeling beaten and lost at the time, and it was reflected more in movies than in music. That's why you had bands like The Eagles being as popular as they were, people wanted to have that "peaceful easy feeling" in the soundtrack of their lives. Most of the fans that initially supported bands like Led Zep or Black Sabbath kind of moved on to Fleetwood Mac, Billy Joel and the Eagles.

[dalsh327]

Johnny Rotten didn't hate Pink Floyd quite the opposite. He wore the Pink Floyd shirt that he defaced with "I Hate" to be snarky. It worked. Malcom McClaren picked him in the audition for his punk rock outfit. Sid Vicious was more than a tragic victim, he was an early fashion victim named after a hamster that bit him. Said of hamster,"Sid is Vicious". Does it matter if he publicly recognized good music? Nah.

http://thequietus.com/articles/03750-john-lydon-wants-to-re-record-dark-side-of-the-moon

[moreblack]

This thread again, wow.

yep, round ∞

[DieselDaisy]

It is true, there was a lot of escapist stuff in the America of the '70s, not just west coast rock which dominated the airwaves. Take glam for example; In Britain glam was more an, androgynous subversive thing (Bowie, T Rex - Queen even) whereas in America it was escapist and comic bookey (Alice Cooper and Kiss). And even Aerosmith favoured dick rock songs over political statements. They could have borrowed (lyrical) inspiration from songs like 'Street Fighting Man' and 'Sympathy for the Devil' but they didn't. They borrowed everything else from The Stones but they did not borrow that. But, Young put out the On the Beach album ('Revolution Blues') and Dylan put out 'Hurricane' so there were some saving graces.

Lennon's New York album was a real misguided attempt to bring back 1963 era Dylan direct protest songs. It failed miserable and Lennon followed it up with a series of middle-aged 'McCartney style' records.

[T.wa.T]

Miser, check out the documentary about the Sex Pistols called the Filth and the Fury. You'll have a better understanding of them and their outlook. It was sent to me from Len, I highly recommend.

Its on youtube.

Edited June 15, 2013 by T.wa.T

[dalsh327]

@JonesysJukebox @GlenMatlock

[Careful with that axe]

Johnny Rotten didn't hate Pink Floyd quite the opposite. He wore the Pink Floyd shirt that he defaced with "I Hate" to be snarky. It worked. Malcom McClaren picked him in the audition for his punk rock outfit. Sid Vicious was more than a tragic victim, he was an early fashion victim named after a hamster that bit him. Said of hamster,"Sid is Vicious". Does it matter if he publicly recognized good music? Nah.

http://thequietus.com/articles/03750-john-lydon-wants-to-re-record-dark-side-of-the-moon

Excellent, thanks much. He can be vile but he's got some taste there.

[Crash Diet]

This thread again, wow.

why don't you locked it?

You are a mod and this is spamming