UK Voting 22/06/14

[Snake-Pit]

I met the first black one in year 4 at school on a school trip and asked him if he was rich 'because of his gold chain.

Sure you didn't' accidentally meet 2Pac?

Dude, DUDE!!!!!!!!!!!! - Dude;

I am literally about to make a 2Pac thread still.

[netcat]

With all due respect to your point of view about compulsory, I have to state that I absolutely abhor the idea. I mean the intention behind it is probably good, it'd be great to get all the layers of society to vote.. But, where it falls is, people people will either vote blank, OR which is much worse, randomly!

I also disagree that person doesn't have the right to complain if they don't vote if they simply feel they have to choose between equally bad options OR do not favor the current system at all. On the other hand, someone who'll vote random would actually have much less of that right to complain in my opinion. The very act of a blind vote is potential participation in what could make life worse for them by ignorantly supporting bad candidate.

In my country the turnout percentage for parliamentary vote is generally about 70%. It's relatively high I think. It's largely considered a virtue to vote which it often sort of is but I'd rather have a lower turnout if it'd weed out all the random votes. It's like in a scientific study some noise needs to be removed as it distracts getting the correct data. In this case the correct date is what the people who DO care wish and I think it's better that they'll get their voices heard clearly rather than have it drown in the noise - "random" votes.

And btw, is there such a thing as lower turnout threshold in Europe?

Unfortunately I don't know answer to that question, I hope someone else does. But the reason I quoted that is it sounds as if you don't consider Ukraine Europe? How do you and people in general feel about themselves over there as in do they identify "European" or something else?

sure Ukraine is Europe, but i understand where you question is coming from. in fact i wanted to ask about the lower turnout threshold in EU. but that was kind of a Freudian slip i guess Ukraine is still in a severe political and economical crisis, we must do a lot of reforms to be in Europe not only geographically, you know.

70% turnout is very impressive. i doubt we will get those numbers this Sunday

[Lio]

With all due respect to your point of view about compulsory, I have to state that I absolutely abhor the idea. I mean the intention behind it is probably good, it'd be great to get all the layers of society to vote.. But, where it falls is, people people will either vote blank, OR which is much worse, randomly!

I also disagree that person doesn't have the right to complain if they don't vote if they simply feel they have to choose between equally bad options OR do not favor the current system at all. On the other hand, someone who'll vote random would actually have much less of that right to complain in my opinion. The very act of a blind vote is potential participation in what could make life worse for them by ignorantly supporting bad candidate.

In my country the turnout percentage for parliamentary vote is generally about 70%. It's relatively high I think. It's largely considered a virtue to vote which it often sort of is but I'd rather have a lower turnout if it'd weed out all the random votes. It's like in a scientific study some noise needs to be removed as it distracts getting the correct data. In this case the correct date is what the people who DO care wish and I think it's better that they'll get their voices heard clearly rather than have it drown in the noise - "random" votes.

There aren't that many people who vote blank. I'll let you know tomorrow night A lot of people only decide who to vote for in the polling station, a newspaper today estimates that 10% of the voters decide in the cubicle. So that is rather a lot, I reckon. I'm absolutely sure a lot of people vote randomly. But is that in itself worse than just voting for your neighbour, like Snake-Pit said ? No offence, Snakepit, it's just an example, a lot of people vote for someone just because they know him/her or because they live in the neighbourhood. I think that's very difficult, because you could also state that some people don't understand what they're voting for, or grasp the meaning and ramifications of what they're voting for (which is quite often the case), shouldn't be allowed to vote.

There will always be pros and cons to every system, and I don't think I would oppose to abolishing compulsory voting. I guess when you have a turn-out of 70% that is quite good.

I stand by my point that people who choose not to exercise their right to vote, can't complain. I don't know how it is up there, but I just checked and I can choose from 12 or 13 parties respectively tomorrow. That's a lot. I figure that there will always be one party you can relate to. Plus, there are always many protest votes, they go to parties that will never be in the government, but if they gather enough votes, they can still weigh on the government by being a strong opposition. So you can always vote for one of those parties too.

[Lio]

sure Ukraine is Europe, but i understand where you question is coming from. in fact i wanted to ask about the lower turnout threshold in EU. but that was kind of a Freudian slip i guess Ukraine is still in a severe political and economical crisis, we must do a lot of reforms to be in Europe not only geographically, you know.

70% turnout is very impressive. i doubt we will get those numbers this Sunday

I view Ukraine as a struggling European nation. I hope some day you'll can join the EU but unfortunately it'll take a lot of time.

With all due respect to your point of view about compulsory, I have to state that I absolutely abhor the idea. I mean the intention behind it is probably good, it'd be great to get all the layers of society to vote.. But, where it falls is, people people will either vote blank, OR which is much worse, randomly!

I also disagree that person doesn't have the right to complain if they don't vote if they simply feel they have to choose between equally bad options OR do not favor the current system at all. On the other hand, someone who'll vote random would actually have much less of that right to complain in my opinion. The very act of a blind vote is potential participation in what could make life worse for them by ignorantly supporting bad candidate.

In my country the turnout percentage for parliamentary vote is generally about 70%. It's relatively high I think. It's largely considered a virtue to vote which it often sort of is but I'd rather have a lower turnout if it'd weed out all the random votes. It's like in a scientific study some noise needs to be removed as it distracts getting the correct data. In this case the correct date is what the people who DO care wish and I think it's better that they'll get their voices heard clearly rather than have it drown in the noise - "random" votes.

There aren't that many people who vote blank. I'll let you know tomorrow night A lot of people only decide who to vote for in the polling station, a newspaper today estimates that 10% of the voters decide in the cubicle. So that is rather a lot, I reckon. I'm absolutely sure a lot of people vote randomly. But is that in itself worse than just voting for your neighbour, like Snake-Pit said ? No offence, Snakepit, it's just an example, a lot of people vote for someone just because they know him/her or because they live in the neighbourhood. I think that's very difficult, because you could also state that some people don't understand what they're voting for, or grasp the meaning and ramifications of what they're voting for (which is quite often the case), shouldn't be allowed to vote.

There will always be pros and cons to every system, and I don't think I would oppose to abolishing compulsory voting. I guess when you have a turn-out of 70% that is quite good.

I stand by my point that people who choose not to exercise their right to vote, can't complain. I don't know how it is up there, but I just checked and I can choose from 12 or 13 parties respectively tomorrow. That's a lot. I figure that there will always be one party you can relate to. Plus, there are always many protest votes, they go to parties that will never be in the government, but if they gather enough votes, they can still weigh on the government by being a strong opposition. So you can always vote for one of those parties too.

I don't think voting someone just because you know them is a good idea either. About not allowing some group of people vote, I don't believe restricting or forcing people is a good thing in a democratic system. I'm just saying random voting's a problem, as much as people who always vote the same party no matter how much they've changed. Ignorant voting ruins the idea of a democratic vote.

What if you don't believe in parliamentary Democracy, why would you still have to vote to have the right to complain? As stated before, many ex-Communist countries had a compulsory vote.. but if one still didn't vote do you believe they didn't have the right to complain about Communism if they didn't believe in it?

In ex-communist countries it was more of a mock vote (still is in North-Korea), because you could only vote for one party, but you can't compare that to the vote here.

If you don't agree with the parliamentary democracy, you can always found a party and enter the election. I don't think you can enter with a party that is against democracy in se, I believe, I think that would be against the law. But I don't think there are a lot of those around. What are you hinting at ? Maybe extremists ?

[Guest Len B'stard]

I nominate SnakePit for mayor of Croydon.

I was sixteen when I met the Mayor of Croydon and... He's also a counselor who my dad knows (in fact he was the 2nd Mayor I ever met, I met the first black one in year 4 at school on a school trip and asked him if he was rich 'because of his gold chain and because he was the mayor', and he said it's enough to buy him bottles of wine, or something). I met the Mayor of Croydon when I was sixteen

When that photo was taken, and I remember I went out to the photo shoot, came home and told my dad what I did and he was like

'Oh, I know him' and where he lived was near us and one day he made a point of showing me his house.

My father always asked if we voted for his friends still lol, be it general election or local, and he knows MPs from all over London, like one time, girlfriend from North London who I bought back to the home, when he met her and found out she lived in Enfield, his reaction was 'I know your MP' lol, lucky for me she was actually into politics too... I swear I'm going to end up voting for her one day.

I remember when I met that Mayor in the photo, I was playing guitar, unplugged, and he said 'get this guy an amp' and then he sang '''xcuse me while I kiss the sky!' - I thought it was pretty cool at the time; I made The Mayor sing Purple Haze lol.

Is that old man Steptoe up the front?

Edited May 24, 2014 by sugaraylen

[Lio]

In ex-communist countries it was more of a mock vote (still is in North-Korea), because you could only vote for one party, but you can't compare that to the vote here.

If you don't agree with the parliamentary democracy, you can always found a party and enter the election. I don't think you can enter with a party that is against democracy in se, I believe, I think that would be against the law. But I don't think there are a lot of those around. What are you hinting at ? Maybe extremists ?

I'm saying people who don't believe in democracy have the right not to. And to say they shouldn't complain if they didn't vote for anyone in an election would be absurd. I suppose extremists then, if that means all people who disagree with the current form of government.

I just haven't met any people who are against democracy. That's why I asked. Maybe I'm missing something here. Yes, well... you can never stop people from complaining and I sure as hell complain about a lot of things I shouldn't complain about

[Lio]

In ex-communist countries it was more of a mock vote (still is in North-Korea), because you could only vote for one party, but you can't compare that to the vote here.

If you don't agree with the parliamentary democracy, you can always found a party and enter the election. I don't think you can enter with a party that is against democracy in se, I believe, I think that would be against the law. But I don't think there are a lot of those around. What are you hinting at ? Maybe extremists ?

I'm saying people who don't believe in democracy have the right not to. And to say they shouldn't complain if they didn't vote for anyone in an election would be absurd. I suppose extremists then, if that means all people who disagree with the current form of government.

I just haven't met any people who are against democracy. That's why I asked. Maybe I'm missing something here. Yes, well... you can never stop people from complaining and I sure as hell complain about a lot of things I shouldn't complain about

Maybe I should have specified to representative democracy. Have you never seen absolute monarchists, anarchists, (totalitarian) fascists etc. demonstrate?

Okay, hadn't thought about them. Don't think I've ever seen them demonstrate, not here anyway. Well, if they live here, they'll have to go vote tomorrow, or face possible consequences. And then they can complain about the system.

[Lio]

Okay, hadn't thought about them. Don't think I've ever seen them demonstrate, not here anyway. Well, if they live here, they'll have to go vote tomorrow, or face possible consequences. And then they can complain about the system.

Blank vote makes the eligible to complain?

Sorry, I don't follow. By system I meant the democracy, not the vote.

[Lio]

Okay, hadn't thought about them. Don't think I've ever seen them demonstrate, not here anyway. Well, if they live here, they'll have to go vote tomorrow, or face possible consequences. And then they can complain about the system.

Blank vote makes the eligible to complain?

Sorry, I don't follow. By system I meant the democracy, not the vote.

What I'm asking is: do you think people who oppose parliamentary democracy are allowed to complain only if they vote?

For example let's say an absolute royalist refuses to vote because he doesn't believe in the current form of the government, does he not in your opinion have the right to complain about it? But if he gives a blank vote, then he has the right to do so?

Well, no, I suppose they can complain. I was more thinking about the average person who is not an absolute royalist/fascist whatever, complaining about it. But if you look at it from their point of view, I get your point.

For the record: it turns out that a little less than 5% voted blank yesterday. Five years ago, it was 5.5%.

[netcat]

maybe more of the EU countries need to adopt compulsory voting system, as i think this time at EU Parliament eceltions voters set the new record of the low turnout, especially in Eastern Europe.

Czech Republic 18%, Slovakia 13%

plus far right anti-EU parties gain in European elections.

i wonder how long will EU last in a present form and shape

[Lio]

Well, that's the problem when there's no compulsory vote, only people who are dissatisfied will vote. You see it in referendums too. People don't bother to vote, unless they're outraged by something.

[sturginho]

maybe more of the EU countries need to adopt compulsory voting system, as i think this time at EU Parliament eceltions voters set the new record of the low turnout, especially in Eastern Europe.

Czech Republic 18%, Slovakia 13%

plus far right anti-EU parties gain in European elections.

i wonder how long will EU last in a present form and shape

wow and I thought Uk turnout was bad

[Snake-Pit]

I don't understand the EU parliament.

How many of those arseholes are from the UK, and out of the UK arseholes; what political parties are they from?

How many did the UK actually elect to this thing?

Edited May 29, 2014 by Snake-Pit

[DieselDaisy]

Nobody understands the EU; the EU like it this way so we do not realise what a con it essentially is. Incidentally, Farage - who apparently has only one testicle - runs in the EU election, the very institution he wishes to leave!

[sturginho]

I don't understand the EU parliament.

How many of those arseholes are from the UK, and out of the UK arseholes; what political parties are they from?

How many did the UK actually elect to this thing?

The UK has 73 MEPs I believe.

Tory MEPs are affiliated with a wider pan-europrean centre-right party, ditto Lib-Dems. As far as I know UKIP don't have any affiliation with any other European party, although there has been talk of them forming a coalition with other nut job parties from other countries (there seem to be plenty of them about)

[netcat]

it seems that "nutjobs" hate each other even more than they hate EU and immigrants, so i probably wouldn't worry about them forming a strong coalition. but they can create situational alliances

[Snake-Pit]

If we loose faith in the system, it'll all fall apart.

If we blindly put faith into a system we're an ass.

Power is about trade.

Starting wars creating laws is a job.

Trade does not count for morals.

Wished it did but don't, that's relative.

We'd trade with China, because what

They do in China is up to China.

I recycle, in Croydon, and am asked

To sort it out by Papar/Plastic and

Food-Waste <- A scheme coming soon

If successful coming to you too, UK...

Reduced service to a 2 week pickup

On my landfill but they'd take the food

Everyweek, I've had since 2012, and

Croydon, sells that.

[Snake-Pit]

I really really really don't want to see UKIP at 10 Downing Street.

That DOES scare me.

[sturginho]

I really really really don't want to see UKIP at 10 Downing Street.

That DOES scare me.

Luckily for us our parliamentary system penalises smaller parties

[netcat]

http://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2014/05/28/next-time-you-hear-about-a-fascist-coup-in-ukraine-remember-this-chart/?fb_action_ids=801979759812369&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B811107518899281%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.recommends%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

[Guest Len B'stard]

'Four ugly birds'