Obama Authorizes Targeted Airstrikes and Humanitarian Missions In Iraq

[Ace Nova]

Yes, that's correct...I am absolutely linking the two because the two are related, but not because they are one in the same. Two things can be related or can be in a cause/effect relationship without being one in the same....I'm sorry if you can't grasp that distinction. And I'm not suggesting any type of conspiracy, but I realize that it is a common tactic on this forum to bring out the "tin foil hat, conspiracy theorist" accusations whenever someone disagrees with the accepted point of view. The Iraq war left the country destabilized and ripe for what is now taking place. Bush's regime change/nation building strategy hasn't played out so well.

Now you're starting to make sense. Most people (now, anyways), especially me, would NEVER defend Bush's decision to invade Iraq. I went ballistic when he decided to do so....unfortunately, I was in the minority at the time.

I honestly don't think there was any logic or strategy to Bush's actions other than his office trying to be "heroes" after 9/11. His cabinet surely didn't help his decision making. Those were very dark years (IMO) in the history of the U.S.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Kasanova King

[Georgy Zhukov]

Well it is true that without Saddam there is no dominant force keeping Iraq together. The same thing will happen if Assad's government falls, which is very important if it does not. Iraq's government is weak. Its army is pathetic. Saddam would have the Republican Guard, well paid, well fed and their job was to bully the other army units into submission. ISIS is simply filling the gap.

They are clearly the strongest group indepedent group in the region, the other being the Free Syrian Army in Syria and the Kurdish Peshmerga. So ISIS is a strong group, but the problem is that unlike Saddam, who ran a secular government and allowed people practice pretty much whatever they want, ISIS imposes Sharia law. Make women wear veils, encourage honor killings, hack off limbs of thieves. Christians are allowed to leave or pay a tax for praying. If they do neither of those things they are to be beheaded.

All of this is basically the consequences of the 2003 Invasion of Iraq to the removal of Saddam.

[Ace Nova]

Well it is true that without Saddam there is no dominant force keeping Iraq together. The same thing will happen if Assad's government falls, which is very important if it does not. Iraq's government is weak. Its army is pathetic. Saddam would have the Republican Guard, well paid, well fed and their job was to bully the other army units into submission. ISIS is simply filling the gap.

They are clearly the strongest group indepedent group in the region, the other being the Free Syrian Army in Syria and the Kurdish Peshmerga. So ISIS is a strong group, but the problem is that unlike Saddam, who ran a secular government and allowed people practice pretty much whatever they want, ISIS imposes Sharia law. Make women wear veils, encourage honor killings, hack off limbs of thieves. Christians are allowed to leave or pay a tax for praying. If they do neither of those things they are to be beheaded.

All of this is basically the consequences of the 2003 Invasion of Iraq to the removal of Saddam.

I can't really disagree with most of this.

The one thing that Iraq (and the U.S.) has going for it is that ISIS seem to think that they are a traditional military force. They storm and raid in the open. Their arrogance shall be their demise. We can pick them off from hundreds of miles away. As a matter of fact, we're already doing so.

[Georgy Zhukov]

They will change tactics as soon as fighting in the open doesn't go there way. They are smarter than than that.

A shame that this so-called Caliphate is giving the Caliphates in the past a bad name. The early ones were cool with having Christians and Jews living under them. They tax them of course but force conversion and executions were unheard of. As long they kept the peace and not live in Mecca or Medina.

[Ace Nova]

They will change tactics as soon as fighting in the open doesn't go there way. They are smarter than than that.

A shame that this so-called Caliphate is giving the Caliphates in the past a bad name. The early ones were cool with having Christians and Jews living under them. They tax them of course but force conversion and executions were unheard of. As long they kept the peace and not live in Mecca or Medina.

I recently spoke to a dear Arab friend of mine and he (more or less) told me that it ALL has to do with money, power and control. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion....they are using Islam as a front.

When everything is said and done, they are nothing but a bunch of prostitutes....they are no better than what they despise. Oh....the irony.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Holy fuck, they really are like Italians.

[Ace Nova]

Holy fuck, they really are like Italians.

[magisme]

So basically we're in fantasy land in this thread. We're just making stuff up? Good to know. Peace.

[magisme]

Right on cue:

WASHINGTON — President Obama’s authorization of limited military operations against militants in Iraq is not enough to counter a growing threat to the United States from “the richest, most powerful terrorist organization in history,” Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, said on Saturday.

Speaking by telephone from Vietnam, where he was part of a bipartisan congressional delegation visiting Asia, Mr. McCain said in an interview that Mr. Obama was showing a “fundamental misunderstanding of the threat” presented by the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, or ISIS, that is “deeply disturbing.”

“The stated purpose — stated by the president — is to save American lives, not to stop ISIS, not to change the battlefield, not to stop ISIS from moving equipment farther into Syria to destroy the Free Syrian Army,” Mr. McCain said. “Obviously, the president of the United States does not appreciate this is not just a threat to American troops on the ground or even Iraq or Kurdistan. This is a threat to America.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/us/politics/mccain-says-limited-us-strikes-on-militants-in-iraq-are-not-enough.html?hpw&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpHedThumbWell&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

[DieselDaisy]

They sound like the Italian army of a certain vintage.

Iraq's performance in Desert Storm was ranked as the most embarrassing since the Italian army's performance against the British in 1941.

It looks like they still have not improved.

Rommel said that he would rather fight one extra British division than have, an Italian division on his side! The German's had their own back on Italian ineptitude by stealing the Italian's vehicles for the retreat from El Alamein.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Italian vehicles were better made than a lot of the German ones. A lot of the vehicles the Wermacht drove in were French made because they took them along with France.

The Italians reportedly performed better in the Eastern Front. They even showed compassion towards the locals. The Romanians on the other hand, had the same respect for them the Germans did.

[DieselDaisy]

The German opinion on the effectiveness of the Italian army, as allies, was very poor. In some ways, the Italian army had never quite recovered from the Battle of Caporetto of 1917 when the whole Italian army effectively deserted on masse to the Hapsburg-German forces - including a young Rommel. The Italian navy however was excellent and considered a real threat by the British in the Mediterranean hence the Taranto raid of 1940. The Italian air force was also excellent; indeed, Italy had led the way in aviation for many years, winning the coveted Schneider Trophy three times in the 1920s. She had the technology and aviators when war broke out.

I think ultimately, the Pact of Steel hindered Germany rather than helped it as the Wehrmacht were forced to prop up the Italians in North Africa and Greece.

Incidentally, when I was in Rome I was surprised to find a statue - a bust - of Mussolini still standing. In fairness, it was covered in grafitti but I assumed things like this would have been pulled down in the general de-fascistization of Europe after 1945. It is opposite the termini railway station: across the bus stops which are outside Termini, and across the main road, there is a little park and there it stands.

[arnold layne]

What a goddam waste of money.

Why don't these clowns spend this money on people who actually need the money, instead of bombing places nobody gives a shit about?

I'm tired of this bullshit.

Obama, give me my tax returns and let me retire in a secluded location where I don't have to deal with these daft shit-for-brains cocksuckers anymore.

[DR DOOM]

You break it you buy it, I think the US and it's allies should have thought about this before deposing Saddam.

[shades]

I honestly don't think there was any logic or strategy to Bush's actions other than his office trying to be "heroes" after 9/11. His cabinet surely didn't help his decision making. Those were very dark years (IMO) in the history of the U.S.

yea and these of today are so bright.

Give the Bush bashing a break and join us in the real world.

where are we now in our foreign policy in regards to fighting terror?

humanitarian bombings sounds a little odd to me.

We assassinated the leader of Libya in the name of humanitarian duty.

We imposed a red line in Syria in the name of humanitarian duty, then hoped the media would just quit talking about it. which they did.

We suddenly decided that the Iraqi government held the keys to peace in the region so we abandoned our effort. Now the failed policy of both has come home to roost in Iraq, emboldened by inconsistency in the world order.

Look either we lead or get out of the way, I'm ok with either personally. But for Obama acting like he can do both simultaneously has became

the problem.

Edited August 11, 2014 by shades

[Lio]

Seriously sick: taking pictures of your 7 year old son with a decapitated head: 'That's my boy.' Or asking your little son what he wants to do with all the 'infidels'. Kill, of course.

What makes people such horrific things ? Apparently it attracts young radicals, they want to be part of the toughest guys, the IS. Plus, the horrific deeds cause fear, so IS doesn't even have to fight anymore, as the people/their adversaries have already fled. A third reason could be they try to provoke the West. They want to fight the West, but can only do that if the West comes to them, they don't have long distance weapons. By fighting the West, they hope to win over the locals. Bombing will always result in civilians being killed, and hatred for the west being fed.

It seems like you can never win.

[Georgy Zhukov]

The German opinion on the effectiveness of the Italian army, as allies, was very poor. In some ways, the Italian army had never quite recovered from the Battle of Caporetto of 1917 when the whole Italian army effectively deserted on masse to the Hapsburg-German forces - including a young Rommel. The Italian navy however was excellent and considered a real threat by the British in the Mediterranean hence the Taranto raid of 1940. The Italian air force was also excellent; indeed, Italy had led the way in aviation for many years, winning the coveted Schneider Trophy three times in the 1920s. She had the technology and aviators when war broke out.

I think ultimately, the Pact of Steel hindered Germany rather than helped it as the Wehrmacht were forced to prop up the Italians in North Africa and Greece.

Incidentally, when I was in Rome I was surprised to find a statue - a bust - of Mussolini still standing. In fairness, it was covered in grafitti but I assumed things like this would have been pulled down in the general de-fascistization of Europe after 1945. It is opposite the termini railway station: across the bus stops which are outside Termini, and across the main road, there is a little park and there it stands.

The Italians were the first to use aviation in warfare, bombing a Turkish port in Libya just three years before World War I stared.

The Italian army performed fine by the end of the war. The Hapsburg armies were the ones in decline. A theory I've read that the mass exodus from Italy to the Americas is what lead to a drainage in manpower. Also, Italians were reluctant to fire upon Americans because a lot of them had families in the states and they were not enthusiastic in fighting the British because many Italians in the North were anglophiles. They were okay with fighting the French though. Especially Italians from Piedmont.

Seriously sick: taking pictures of your 7 year old son with a decapitated head: 'That's my boy.' Or asking your little son what he wants to do with all the 'infidels'. Kill, of course.

What makes people such horrific things ? Apparently it attracts young radicals, they want to be part of the toughest guys, the IS. Plus, the horrific deeds cause fear, so IS doesn't even have to fight anymore, as the people/their adversaries have already fled. A third reason could be they try to provoke the West. They want to fight the West, but can only do that if the West comes to them, they don't have long distance weapons. By fighting the West, they hope to win over the locals. Bombing will always result in civilians being killed, and hatred for the west being fed.

It seems like you can never win.

Lack of jobs and education helps. These kids can't read so they rely on others to tell them what the Koran says. So that is what they do.

[Lio]

Seriously sick: taking pictures of your 7 year old son with a decapitated head: 'That's my boy.' Or asking your little son what he wants to do with all the 'infidels'. Kill, of course.

What makes people such horrific things ? Apparently it attracts young radicals, they want to be part of the toughest guys, the IS. Plus, the horrific deeds cause fear, so IS doesn't even have to fight anymore, as the people/their adversaries have already fled. A third reason could be they try to provoke the West. They want to fight the West, but can only do that if the West comes to them, they don't have long distance weapons. By fighting the West, they hope to win over the locals. Bombing will always result in civilians being killed, and hatred for the west being fed.

It seems like you can never win.

Lack of jobs and education helps. These kids can't read so they rely on others to tell them what the Koran says. So that is what they do.

It's not only that. The man with the 7 year old with the decapitated head comes from Australia; the second one from Belgium. I think they can read, well, maybe not the children, but the fathers. But often they are recently converted and don't know the Koran well. They get told what the Koran says by the radicals.

They don't come from a life in the worst conditions. Many young people from the west go and fight in Syria (and now IS), and they're not uneducated.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Educated people can be stupid too. Like those who believe any conspiracy theory they've read.

There are a lot of Muslims where I live, and they don't do stupid things. I think people just want to have a reason to kill.

[DieselDaisy]

The German opinion on the effectiveness of the Italian army, as allies, was very poor. In some ways, the Italian army had never quite recovered from the Battle of Caporetto of 1917 when the whole Italian army effectively deserted on masse to the Hapsburg-German forces - including a young Rommel. The Italian navy however was excellent and considered a real threat by the British in the Mediterranean hence the Taranto raid of 1940. The Italian air force was also excellent; indeed, Italy had led the way in aviation for many years, winning the coveted Schneider Trophy three times in the 1920s. She had the technology and aviators when war broke out.

I think ultimately, the Pact of Steel hindered Germany rather than helped it as the Wehrmacht were forced to prop up the Italians in North Africa and Greece.

Incidentally, when I was in Rome I was surprised to find a statue - a bust - of Mussolini still standing. In fairness, it was covered in grafitti but I assumed things like this would have been pulled down in the general de-fascistization of Europe after 1945. It is opposite the termini railway station: across the bus stops which are outside Termini, and across the main road, there is a little park and there it stands.

The Italians were the first to use aviation in warfare, bombing a Turkish port in Libya just three years before World War I stared.

The Italian army performed fine by the end of the war. The Hapsburg armies were the ones in decline. A theory I've read that the mass exodus from Italy to the Americas is what lead to a drainage in manpower. Also, Italians were reluctant to fire upon Americans because a lot of them had families in the states and they were not enthusiastic in fighting the British because many Italians in the North were anglophiles. They were okay with fighting the French though. Especially Italians from Piedmont.

In World War One the Italians were fighting in literally the most absurd conditions ever at the Isonzo river, perfect Alpine defensive terrain. They were literally having to attack massive vertical cliff surfaces. They were tunnelling caves and fighting through these cave networks. The Italians would have been better off leaving a token force there, crossing over the French border and forming the bulk of their armies on the right flank of the Western Front. But they wanted to reclaim those little pockets of Italians that belonged to the Hapsburgs - ‘irredentism’ you see?

Yes, there is some truth in that. But this did not happen with the Germans quite so much, fighting Americans of German extraction. You sort of sense that the Italians had not really, thrown themselves into Mussolini's imperial project in the same way that the Japanese and Germans had regarding their imperial designs. Il Duce had not been quite as successful as Hitler or the Japanese military in turning his population into mindless drones, hence his own death by a Communist mob. The mafia for instance utilised their influence in Sicily and facilitated Operation Husky.

There is something in the Italian character also. The Germans - at least the Prussians - have a tradition of militaristic obedience while the Japanese were weaned on absolute Shintoistic loyalty to the Emperor to such an extent that it was considered 'glorious' to die for him. Not so the Italians who like dolce vita a bit too much, the (puts on best Italian accent) ‘’pasta, vino and romancing the beautiful senorinas’’. Everybody loves the Italians. I mean who would you rather be, a farty old Junker officer in a Prussian uniform, a servile Japanese puppet or an Italian?

[Georgy Zhukov]

Also the Italians at the time were more locally oriented. There's that North and South divide, they were loyal to their own region. Sure the Germans had their regional identity as well as the Japanese but Italians were more resentful to their overlords in Rome and the North.

The man who have helped provided Mafia contacts for the US military in Sicily was Charles "Lucky" Luciano in a deal for better treatment in prison. He was rewarded for his cooperation by Governor Thomas E. Dewey, by allowing him to return to Italy. He wasn't really supposed to go back to crime but he did anyway. Dewey may or may not be aware that it was Lucky and Meyer Lansky who prevented him from being murdered by Dutch Schultz. Dewey's murder would have been too high profiled and demand an all-out crackdown. So they killed Schultz instead.

Probably another reason why Italians in Southern Italy did not support the war as much as the Germans did. They feared retaliations from Mafia that had business dealings with their partners in the States.

[DieselDaisy]

About German regionalism, I was just reading a book on the British soldier during World War One and apparently the Saxons used to shout across no man's land to the British, ''hey, Tom' eee, there is a Prussian regiment taking our place in a hour so make sure you bomb the hell out of them'' or something of that character. Prussia had swallowed up Saxony in the Napoleonic Wars and there was a well known hatred between the two.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Been reading up on a bit of German history how the German dukes ditched the Carolingian kings and set up their own kingdom. Swallowing up smaller kingdoms that eventually became apart of Germany. They chose the Duke of Saxony Henry the Fowler who was succeeded by Otto the Great. So yeah, can see why the Saxons have resentment for Prussia.

[DieselDaisy]

Most states possess an army. Prussia was virtually an army which possessed a state. Still, it was an enigma, Prussia - as was Frederick the Great who prided himself on his Enlightened despotism; incredibly militaristic yet one of the few states to grant religious toleration and allow Jews to attain high office in the bureaucracy; writers of the Enlightenment like Voltaire passed through there; it was advanced in regards to social welfare, e.g. poor relief; yet, it made constant war against its neighbours, converting slices of the European map.

Napoleon smashed Prussian pride and honour at the Battle of Jena in 1806 (he carried the Brandenburg Gate's Quadriga back to Paris), yet, under those twin military reformers, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, she reformed the military creating the rudiments of the world's first Military General Staff. This was the military machine which was bestowed on Molke and his successors.

[magisme]

Area Man Feels Even Lazier When He Thinks About How Much ISIS Has Accomplished This Year

PEORIA, IL—Saying he was already dissatisfied by how little he’d accomplished, 33-year-old Kevin McDouglas told reporters Monday he felt even lazier when looking at the impressive list of achievements the militant Islamist organization ISIS had accumulated this year. “Jeez, in the same time it’s taken me to restain half the back deck, these guys have been out there making some real, tangible progress toward establishing a regional caliphate,” said McDouglas, noting that he couldn’t help but feel like he had wasted his summer after comparing how rapidly the jihadist group had swept through northern Iraq to his own inability to schedule a dentist appointment or clean out his car even with the week off he took in July. “I’d never even heard of them a few months ago, and now they’ve nearly wiped out an entire ethnic group? And here I’ve still got that pile of bricks in the driveway waiting to be placed around the edge of the garden.” At press time, McDouglas was reportedly feeling much better about himself after thinking about the eight pounds he’d recently lost in comparison to the leadership crisis al-Qaeda has been experiencing.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-feels-even-lazier-when-he-thinks-about-ho,36664/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=Pic:1:Default

Edited August 11, 2014 by magisme