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Kittiara
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Posts posted by Kittiara
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Coma for me. I love that it's a regular in the set list now. It's the one song I really, really want to experience live. Love the lyrics, love the stucture, love the guitars. The Houston 2016 version was especially great.
I do like Locomotive, though, but yeah, Coma all the way for me.
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10 hours ago, Live Like a Suicide said:Possible, but others have said the police could use discretion to charge Axl without the consent of the alleged victim (Michelle). For what it's worth, here is what Michelle wrote in her opening remarks:
It sounds like Michelle's mother was actively attempting to press charges. Indeed, if we are to believe Michelle, Duff tried persuading her to 'drop the charges'. Were they filed or not? Possible since Michelle mentioned court. Either way, if the police thought there was enough evidence to convict Axl, they likely would have filed charges regardless of Michelle's actions. There were other possible avenues to investigate the incident without her involvement... Dizzy Reed, Vince, Johnny X, etc. Either this was done, and nothing turned up, or none of it was investigated at all. How do we know? Because nothing came of the situation.
Aye, though Michelle said that wasn't the case in 1985. I'm in the UK, so I haven't a clue if that route was open to the police in California at that point.
There is much that is unclear at the moment. I'm trying to wrap my head around it but, admittedly, I haven't been successful. I think that what we can say, from Raz Cue's story along with Michelle's, is that her mom's boyfriend was a musician who was recording in a studio next to GN'R's. That this led to Michelle being around the band for what seems like a good while. I can imagine that this would have seemed super cool to a 15-year-old girl. The adults should have stopped it, really, because by all accounts it wasn't a good place to be for a teenager.
Then Raz mentions that his brother told him that Axl had been physically intimate with Michelle. Regardless of anything else, with Axl being an adult and Michelle being 15, if that happened that wasn't good. And I think that most people agree that at one point or another a 15-year-old was indeed sent out into the streets without her clothes.
It feels kind of icky to even discuss all this, and I normally stay well clear of being an armchair detective. I also feel conflicted because with Raz Cue writing about Michelle, and us discussing her, I feel that she has the right to share her version of events and I don't want to dismiss them just because I happen to be a fan of the band. But I also don't want to condemn Axl on the basis of this, because I believe in the presumption of innocence rather than being a part of the pitchfork brigade.
I'd like to know the truth about this and other things I have read in this thread, like the story about the woman who worked for Penthouse, but due to the nature of these cases I know that that's difficult, if not impossible. It often does come down to he-said, she-said, especially after this amount of time. Which places me, as a fan, in a position of not knowing if my support for the band is reasonable - if these things are true, I don't think I can support them any longer, however much I love the music.
But it isn't about me. I guess all we can do is wait and see.
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11 hours ago, Blackstar said:
Michelle herself says that her mother pressed charges but she refused to go testify in court, so it seems there were charges that went up to a point in the legal process and then dropped.
I don't know if you have seen the quotes I posted on the first page of the thread. There are a couple more besides the ones @SoulMonster posted:
There was this one by Izzy, following what Slash said in the same interview (sorry if it's inappropriate, but that's what he said):
Slash: That was no big deal. What happened is Axl and me were with these two girls, and they got in a sexual situation and they decided to file rape charges. Me and Axl had to borrow suits one day to go down to the police station and turn ourselves in over this crap – and when it came down to the wire, they dropped the charges because it was all bogus. We didn’t fucking do anything to them [Spin, May 1988].
Izzy: It turned out that our drummer had fucked one of their mothers, so it was a complicated story [Spin, May 1988].
Kim Fowley, who had a brief involvement with the band at that time, would later remember this:
FOWLEY: This was on Tuesday, and we talked again on Thursday and the following Saturday. The last day, I was in the bathtub, and Izzy called imploring me to get out of the bathtub because he was having an emergency. I said: “Hey, I already told you I can’t work with you, but what’s the emergency?” It was about three of the guys in the band and probably a mother and a daughter, and there was a big argument of some kind at Sunset and Gardner, where the band lived at the time in this cramped space, and something about the police either coming in or watching the house, blah blah blah. The three Guns N’ Roses guys did not want to be interrogated, so they disappeared. [Metal Sludge, 2012]
Izzy would also say in an interview after he had left the band that the police were after Axl and Slash, so the band left the rehearsal space and ended up in Vicky Hamilton's apartment:
Izzy: The police were after Axl and Slash. We returned from the studio to a kind of house without neighbors. We lived in the hallway together with two or three other bands. The police had told us that they were going to beat the shit out of us when they got ahold of us. So, we went home, it didn’t have a door, and we told a friend of ours, Robert John, photographer, that had a big Cadillac, “Robert, you’re our roadie now” (laughs). We loaded the equipment in the car and we left that place in an hour. And Vicky Hamilton offered to help us [Popular 1, November 1992].
Thank you, Blackstar. It's all so messy, isn't it? I mean, these quotes combined with the others could have all been related to one incident, or two, or there could have been several incidents where the guys got into a mess with women for one reason or another. Like, these quotes appear to possibly be linked to the bungalow incident, but then again they might not be because of the mention of a situation with a woman and her mother. So, that seems like a different scenario than the Dio Boots one, and according to Raz Cue that was a different situation again to what happened to Michelle, and I don't even know anymore!
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2 minutes ago, Blackstar said:
According to Raz Cue's revision, the thing with the "Dio boots" girl was trivial and didn't lead to a charge. Furthermore, he says that girl was obsessed with Axl, so it would have nothing to do with Slash.
Aye true. Just saw that it was the bungalow incident that led to a charge involving both Axl and Slash.
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3 minutes ago, Live Like a Suicide said:
I agree, there are too many stories that it is hard to tell what's what. but with deduction, we should be able to assess some of them. The problem i have with this case is that Raz Cue indicated that Axl wasn't involved with the Dio Boots incident, yet he was still charged with rape during Guns' early years. Michelle also claims that Axl was charged with rape in her incident. Where does Slash fit in then? Either he and Axl were charged during the false Dio Boots case or they were charged in Michelle's case. Either way you cut it, we only know of one charge for each. That's an inconsistency.
At the end of the day though, the charges were dropped, so we can safely assume there was little evidence to convict Axl or Slash of the alleged crimes.
Just scrolling through the thread now and @SoulMonster posted a quote from Slash about the bungalow incident where it does appear that he and Axl were charged over that one, but those charges were indeed dropped. Then there was the Dio Boots case, where the police was brought into it but it didn't really go anywhere, rightfully so from what I can make out. Could it be that in Michelle's case her mother contacted the police, but as Michelle decided to not press charges, no charges were indeed brought? That'd make the bungalow incident the one that people know about.
Though, in the same post by SoulMonster, Axl refers to an "old girlfriend trying to get back at us" which, if that refers to Michelle, would be problematic because regardless of anything else, her being 15 at the time, and him being an adult, and the age of consent being 18... But, obviously, we can't know who he was referring to.
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2 minutes ago, Live Like a Suicide said:
Then Axl would have been charged twice with rape during Guns N' Roses' early years, no? Once for this (Michelle claims charges were filed but didn't get anywhere because she never went to court) and once for another incident. Both were dropped. The problem? We only know of one incident where Axl was charged with rape, and that included Slash.
The simple fact is there are too many stories floating around that involve little evidence other than witness statements. These stories have also been subject to numerous alterations since the very beginning (even regarding the early statements of band members). It's no wonder why the original charges were dropped.
I will readily admit that I am a lot less clued up about the history of Guns N' Roses than most people on this forum, and I may be getting things confused. There's a lot in this thread that I was unaware of before and there are several incidents with women mentioned - like the bungalow one as well. So, I don't know what's what anymore.
What I do know is that I'm pretty shocked at some of the stuff I've read. Which probably sounds incredibly naive for a GN'R fan, but until I became a member here I was just one of those fans who just listened to the songs and attended the occasional concert. This forum has been an education, but obviously there's a lot I don't know still. And on occasions like this I really understand the saying that ignorance is bliss, because if even half this shit is true I don't know what kinda band I've been following, much as I love a lot of the music!
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9 minutes ago, Live Like a Suicide said:
You say Izzy was the only other GN'R member there, and you don't know the people who assaulted you, other than Axl and a friend of Duff's. Can you please tell us why Slash was charged if he was not involved then?
From what I understand from the second Raz Cue piece, that was another incident with another girl? The "Dio boots" one?
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I've been following this discussion and I can understand why Michelle chose to post here. As part of this discussion people are discussing her, after all, so it's only natural that she wishes to share her story.
It can't be easy seeing yourself discussed in books that you had no input in, and now seeing your name and your past discussed by complete strangers on message forums. I think if that were me, about any aspect of my life, I'd probably want to let my voice be heard, too. Yeah, it's a risk, because people can be unpleasant, especially on the Internet, but I think that as we're all adults here, we can surely discuss this in a polite manner. We're not that horrible a lot on this board, after all.
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Okay, so I have watched the documentary as well as the Oprah interview. Earlier in this thread I said that I had questions. I still do. As others have said, the documentary doesn't offer any actual evidence of sexual abuse. That would have been impossible. It did, however, lead me to draw some conclusions:
- The documentary showed video footage, pictures, recordings etc of just how close Michael Jackson was to these boys. Some of it was pretty creepy, like that interview on the plane, and those faxes, and one of those answer machine messages. The relationship he had with the boys seemed very... intense. Overwhelming. It's easy to see how he made them feel special, and loved, and then he replaced them with the next boy, and the hurt that caused is easily understood. Regardless of whether or not any sexual abuse took place, I would class that as emotional abuse.
- I still stand firm that regardless of whether or not any sexual abuse took place, it was wrong of Jackson to share a bedroom, let alone a bed, with unrelated children.
- The parents, and especially the mothers, came across terribly in the documentary. Their reputation is in pieces forever. I am not sure why they would participate in the documentary if the allegations aren't true. No amount of money would surely make up for being seen as a terrible person, globally, for the rest of your life...
- Like @downzy it was the second half of part 2 that I found the most convincing. If there isn't something to these allegations then the brother and sister especially deserve an Oscar.
- The same goes for James Safechuck towards the end of the Oprah interview. If he isn't being genuine the guy deserves some kind of acting award.
I can't, of course, be 100 percent certain that these guys are telling the truth. On balance, however, I find it difficult to believe they and their families could lie like that. I also find it difficult to understand why they would. They didn't seek to make this documentary. In the Oprah interview, the producer says he was the one who approached them. They, nor their families, received any monetary reward for it. The doors to any monetary reward are pretty much closed. They've made themselves hate figures in the eyes of many, and the same goes for their families and especially their mothers.
Even if they are liars, though, as I mentioned above, it is clear that Jackson wasn't a nice person. As someone who was once a fan, that's not pleasant to admit, but enough evidence was presented for me to conclude that much...
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I haven't yet watched this documentary and I am not sure that I want to. However, I did read about it because, as I said in another thread, I read some of the trial transcripts due to a conversation on another forum and I was left with some questions. Questions that will no doubt never be answered.
I have questions about these accusers as well. It does seem questionable that one of them claimed at that trial that Michael Jackson had never touched him inappropriately and now he claims the opposite. I am pretty sure that I read, though, that neither of the men were paid to be a part of this documentary. Why, then, are they exposing themselves to what will no doubt amount to a lot of vitriol?
I just don't know. I do, however, agree with Len that regardless of his innocence regarding the actions he was accused of, there was some dodgy stuff going on at Neverland. I, too, stated in the other thread that if it were Bob the plumber from down the road sharing a bedroom with unrelated children I doubt anyone would rush to excuse this behaviour. And, indeed, there was the dodgy "art" book. And who leaves porn magazines lying around when there are kids staying over?
I know people say Michael Jackson was an innocent, childlike soul but is that because that was just the image he meant to project, or something we're projecting onto him? Or is it the truth? And how far does that go?
As said, many questions...
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This is something that I have pondered as well on occasion, and especially over the last year.
When I was a kid, I loved Michael Jackson's music. I guess he was the first artist who I was a fan of. I had the opportunity to meet him once, and I remember him being really nice. A bit shy. When the accusations emerged, I didn't believe them. I didn't want to believe them. Last year, due to a discussion on another forum, I ended up reading some of the trial transcripts and whilst he was found to be not guilty, there was some questionable stuff going on. I am no longer a kid and I see no justification for having unrelated children sleeping in one's bedroom. If it weren't Michael Jackson, but Bob, the plumber down the road, would anyone make excuses for that?
Yet, I do like some of his music. It's music I grew up with. So, like others say in this thread, where do you draw the line? I was never into the Lostprophets but I do feel that it would be difficult for me to listen to an artist who was found guilty of a crime of that nature.
I can't completely separate the art from the artist, because to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the piece, there will always be something of the artist that shines through in the art. I love to write and I know that even if I write a fantasy story, for example, there's something of me in there. It's inevitable. What we create stems from who we are - our feelings, our thoughts, our emotions, our personalities.
I haven't known about Axl's alleged past for that long, despite having loved GN'R's music since '87. I was the kind of person who listened to the music and attended the occasional concert, and that's about it. Sure, I sometimes read music magazines aimed at teenagers but they were the kind where you mainly learned about an artist's favourite colour and food, not the serious kind of stuff. It's only through this forum that I have become more informed. And if it's true that Axl did those things then that's not something I can condone and that does somewhat diminish my enjoyment of his art. It also makes those t-shirts he wears at times, like the one with the woman in the trash can, all the more distasteful.
And yeah, it's a cognitive dissonance thing. I can tell myself that with some artists whose music I love, that they may have done some awful things but they haven't been found guilty so we can't know for sure, but that if they had I would stop listening. Would I really?
I think what that uncertainty says about me is not something I like.
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I'm fine with Axl posting his political views. I mean, I'm quite opinionated when it comes to politics and, on occasion, I share my views online, so I'm not about to tell anyone else that they can't do the same, whether they're politicians, artists, or Bob down the road. Politics affects us all, so we can all have our say about it.
I know quite a few people who have become more interested in politics, and more engaged with it these past years. Like, here in the UK, Brexit is obviously a very divisive issue, and Trump's presidency seems to be similarly divisive. Him posting on Twitter every day in a way that previous presidents haven't encourages people to tweet to him and about him, I think. Not that Axl was completely apolitical before. We all know that some GN'R songs are political, or have political elements.
Of course, Axl's tweets don't carry any more weight for me than the political views of others. We all have our own views and our own reasons for those views.
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Still lovin' Coma.
Just now, Gibbo said:Think so
Thanks! Thought so, but wasn't sure I'd missed it.
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Thanks for the links, everyone!
Did they skip TIL?
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I will never understand why some people think it's cool/funny/whatever to mock other people's looks. I see it all over the Internet. It's one reason I don't tend to post pictures of myself online - I'm not exactly a supermodel (not that supermodels don't receive criticism).
I think it's a particularly unpleasant way of mocking people, because it's pretty much guaranteed to be hurtful and undermine people's confidence, whilst there's not a whole lot anyone can do about their appearance, and especially not about aging. Sure, there are some small things - a haircut etc. Some might resort to plastic surgery, but that can go terribly wrong and often looks unnatural.
In the case of Axl, there are things he can be criticised about. He hasn't exactly been a paragon of virtue throughout his lifetime. Attacking his looks, though, I think is indeed unfair and petty. Age happens to all of us. There's nothing we can do to stop it.
But it's not just random people around the Internet who resort to this. I've seen it on this forum. That's surprised me before, because other members of the band don't tend to receive many comments about their looks (maybe Melissa at times). If I were Axl, I'd probably be hiding out in a bunker somewhere.
All credit to him for still going out there in front of large audiences.
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I don't know. For the last year or so, I've felt conflicted about the band. I think it's one of those cases where ignorance is bliss...
I got into GN'R in 1987, when I was still a young 'un. English was my second language, and my knowledge of it was very limited at the time, so I didn't realise the meaning of certain songs. Even by the time I first saw them in concert, in '93, I had no clue Brownstone's about drugs, Nightrain about alcohol etc.
I was your typical fan - I loved the music, bought the albums, attended some concerts, had the posters on my wall. I've never been one to read up on celeb news. Until I joined this forum I didn't have a clue about TB or, indeed, about the band members' pasts. I didn't know about the violence and the drugs and the load of other bad stuff going on. It's especially the Women's Thread that enlightened me - those ladies are really knowledgeable. I didn't know the extent with which the management treats fans with contempt. I joined the Nightrain site after learning about it on here and had a really bad experience there. And whilst I can brush off the alcohol and drug use in the band's past, as that's hardly unusual in the music world, the abuse and the sexism don't sit welll with me.
And I can't even say that that's long ago, because there are Axl's t-shirts, like the one with the lady in the trash can, and the rapist robot still seems popular with them, and there's the new artwork in that $1000 box set. I don't expect artists to be paragons of virtue, but increasingly I find the band to be distinctly unlikeable. Hence the conflict - I still love a lot of their music, and that music feels like a part of me, but there's a big value clash there and I don't know why I should chuck money in the direction of people who don't seem to give a shit about their fanbase.
How do you separate the art from the artist? Where do you draw the line? I don't know. A part of me wants to just give up on the band, but here I am.
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4 minutes ago, cooker said:
fair fair. Just makes me wonder how big a cluster this band's management is behind the scenes. I'd love a TB Brazil documentary. No band interviews, just following the management around while on tour. The next Netflix docuseries.
Thank you for understanding.
And ha, that would sure be interesting. When it comes to the band's circle, my mind is well and truly boggled.
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12 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:
We posted on there together a few years ago. The mods tbere were worthless. They seemed to make you a mod just to bare the brunt of the abuse. Dispocable behavior on Jarmo and Catcher/GNR Mods (who the eff are those goons?) part
You are a great poster
Aye, I remember you posting there! It was a nightmare, wasn't it?
And thank you.
You are a wonderful poster as well.
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4 minutes ago, cooker said:
curious about the racist angle.. especially with TB having issues with this being done to them in the past.
Aye. I won't go into it further here, as very bad language was used which I don't want to replicate. But that's one thing you'd think any decent forum/site would not, under any circumstances, condone.
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People were threatened and had their families threatened?
That is so, so horrible and wrong!
I hope the people who did this are just making up their connections to GN'R/TB. I really, really do.
I do, however, also agree with @killuridols that there are fans who have been subjected to bullying and abuse, and the Staff at Nightrain, at least, were aware of it. Not only were the abusers not warned, let alone banned... they were allowed to feel special. I have seen them be praised. I don't tend to speak out about this, for fear of being targetted more, but I was one of the people attacked and bullied, in public as well as in private. I was subjected to racism and sexism. Nothing was done. Unsurprisingly, I am no longer a member there.
That's nothing compared to people being threatened and having their families threatened, of course. I am not trying to make this about me. But it does illustrate that sometimes the people in the GN'R circle, if they're not actually behind it, do condone bad treatment of fans.
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The Locked & Loaded video isn't available in my country, apparently. Can anyone tell me if the purple banner replica is the same size as the original? That's the only item in the $1000 box I am kinda interested in and if it's the same size, I might keep my eye out for it on Ebay. If it's just a tiny thing, I won't bother.
Glad I watched the unpacking of the Super Deluxe box - I was slightly tempted to buy that version for the book, as I thought it was going to contain lots of pictures from Axl's private collection. But it seems to be mostly pics that have been around on the Internet for ages. So I'm definitely not going to bother now.
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I know my mind works in weird ways, but... if the art was meant to contain an anti-rape message, isn't it kinda odd that GN'R's Nightrain membership packages contain a t-shirt and laminate (and maybe more, haven't checked in a while as I let my membership expire) of the rapist robot? Like, "We're totally anti-rape, of course, but we think you really want to wear rapist robot stuff!" If the monster is the good guy in this scenario, shouldn't they put him/her/it on there instead?
When Appetite was released I was a kid and didn't look into it/think about it too deeply. But if that's the message being sold what with the unpacking of the box, then yeah, I don't really see that piece of art in that light. And that comment from Axl about women getting jealous because they think their husbands want to fuck the lady in the picture...
Like @killuridols, I don't think those of us not buying into this being an anti-rape thing are the ones who are removed from reality here...
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Not sure if I'd call myself an artist, but I like to write. Mostly just for fun - poetry and short stories - but I have published some articles and comment pieces both in the UK and the US, had some of my poems published in the US, and I've just been accepted by a publisher to release a poetry collection.
I know that's not exactly gonna make me a lot of money, as the market for poetry isn't huge, but it'll be fun to see it out there. I'm also hoping to get a story collection published, and some children's books.
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Just catching up on this and I am baffled. Completely and utterly baffled.
The one thing that popped into my head is... wasn't there something about one of the $1000 boxes containing some sort of "golden opportunity"? Can't remember where I read that. Possibly the big thread on the box releases.
So... if there is indeed such a thing, maybe it's tied in with this? And anyone who doesn't get that "golden opportunity" can spend more money buying merch?
I'm likely to be completely wrong here, but if this isn't tied in with anything, then I dunno, man... I just don't know anymore.
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All credit to him for still going out there in front of large audiences.
You are a wonderful poster as well.
That is so, so horrible and wrong!
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Copyright Strikes....
in GUNS N' ROSES - DISCUSSION & NEWS
Posted
I've been reading this thread and there's something I don't understand... just why does the band/the management favour fans who display horrible behaviour?
I remember one of the people under discussion in this thread. I joined Nightrain a few months before the reunion. That person really made the forum a terrible place to be. He and his friends very much made it clear that they wanted me gone. At times he properly tore into me. Called me a slut and a whore and all sorts of rude and crude things, including xenophobic shit. Just because there are GN'R songs I like more than others, and line-ups I like more than others, and I thought that changing membership perks part of the way through wasn't a great decision. Lots of people didn't even dare post on the forum and the moderators didn't do a thing about him or his behaviour. That was 2015/2016 and it seems like he's still there, making the place miserable, and now being racist as well? I thought GN'R and TB were against racism and xenophobia. Guess not...
I don't really know the lady who Beta was rude to, but from what I have seen of her she seems nice and pleasant. So, manners do not matter. Attending lots of concerts does not matter. What then? To never, ever question anything? No suggestions, ever? No favourite songs, no favourite anything, everything has to be just as great as anything else? A willingness to be sexist and racist and xenophobic and classist towards anyone who does not conform? That's troubling. Especially for a band who used to display a good dose of irreverence.
I'm just... baffled.