Euchre

2 hours ago, 19AT5 said:

Don't do anything crazy? You've just advocated giving Steven Adler a control of the name! Haha!

Well the way I designed the above was that not even 3 members have control. Essentially 4 to approve a move and any 2 can veto. That way the outcome isn't dependent on any single member (who may or may not have some mental health or control issues going on) or even 3 members, who say were money hungry for instance. Think of it as a power sharing agreement where musical integrity and credibility are the main determinant in any steps forward.

ETA just on the Adler point, in the last 30 years, despite a debilitating drug addiction for much of the time and the added burden of being cut from the biggest band in the world at their peak - Adler has released 1 album, 4 EP's, another EPs worth of material across the Vain albums and guest appearances with Slash and Izzy - all of which was pretty great. So yeah if it came down to a choice of Adler being in control for the last 30 years vs what has happened, I know which way I'd jump !!

11 minutes ago, 19AT5 said:

I get what you're saying. Though I must confess I really like the MC94 album! Power To The Music is a banger!

I love MC94 as well. I saw Crabby perform the whole album a couple of years back !

Even though it went Top 5 and some fans like myself absolutely love it, I can say objectively that it would be considered an underwhelming release (ie akin to CD.) For me to try and maintain anything different just because I like it so much would be delusional.

Anyway, I'm going to crank it up right now !!

10 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Is he a musical genius? what's the criteria Euchre? I'd say writing a song that 30yrs later people still scream out loud, or cry when they hear it live suggests he might just be a musical genius. His small output means nothing against his ability as a songwriter. 

You're clearly not a CD fan, your loss it's one of my favourite records, right beside the UYI records. But saying it's not worthwhile (your opinion) is just ridiculous. Exactly how is that measured? did it need to go platinum worldwide to be worthwhile. Nope, it's worthwhile because thousands love the songs, even if you and many others don't.

I actually provided a lot of factual evidence to support my position - most of what I have got back in return is opinions.

I'll summarise again briefly, Out of a 40 year career :

* Axl had a number of bands prior to GNR that got at best to demo stage but then went nowhere. Those bands included other members who were able to establish new platinum selling bands.

* Axl then had a brief 5 year period when he was with 4 other people in Slash, Steve, Izzy, Duff wrote and recorded 3 albums + 2 EP's (well Steve missed the recording of UYI, but was there for most of the writing). During this period they became the biggest band in the world.

* Post that period Axl has had the benefit of owning the name of the biggest band in the world, the benefit of the record contract that went along that band name, all the infrastructure (ie management, publicists etc) of that band around him and funding to the tune of being able to make the most expensive album ever made. On top of that he has had numerous players around him that have achieved great success in other bands. Some even managed a side project album during this time that went Number 1. And with all that he has managed to release 1 single album.

* Despite all the advantages and in particular the name, that single album didn't perform as well as the debut album from a completely new band that some of those other 4 created anew from scratch. Touring of this album took the band from large venues to relatively small ones by the end (sorry I don't know exact numbers). All the other 4 members have had numerous releases during that time. 

Is any of the above untrue ?

How do you interpret the above -

Well, my very original post on the matter is that from my perspective from reading various GNR forums over 20 years now, is that it seems to me that some people take the view that Axl was the supreme musical genius of GNR and every year they are surprised and disappointed that he hasn't dropped his latest piece of epic recordings on their lap. They then go into ever more convoluted and complicated explanations trying to explain why things haven't happened. I think there is a much more simpler one, which is he just isn't capable.

My point was that the lens I look through is that far from being the creative genius of the band I see it as Axl was the guy most dependent on the others. He knew full will that without them he would struggle to produce anything, which is part of the reason he needed control of the name so badly and why he has never done anything outside of the GNR name. In fact, so many people who he has been in bands with have struck out and released a lot of great stuff and in some cases where they desire it to great commercial success. So that 5 year period that set GNR up for life, was more about the other 4's abilities that about Axl's. That's what I believe, that's what I think the evidence above points to and that is why I'm never surprised nor disappointed when another year goes by without a GNR release. It's a simple explanation that fits the facts.

If anyone wants to put forward some factual evidence that doesn't fit with that narrative I'm happy to listen. But arguments that basically boil down to Axl is a genius because he's a genius, or he's a genius because I like him are just opinions and isn't going to change my view. The other counters that seem to have come back was he was great in '85-'91, are true but in my mind just prove my point how heavily dependent he was on the other 4.

Regarding CD, yes its my opinion that I don't like it - I tried to give it a chance a couple of times but think its really poor - but I accept that others love it. There are a lot of bands where I love albums that most fans think are amongst their weakest. I think it is demonstratable however that CD was underwhelming. It is basically equivalent to the MC94 album - I'm not going to detail all the parallels here as I really can't be bothered getting into that one, but I think it would be disingenuous to suggest that it delivered what GNR and Geffen or whoever ended up financing it thought it would.

14 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Axl's turning 60 soon he'll probably be dead within the next 15years.

That kind of puts in in perspective - 1 album between ages 30 & 60 and counting...... nothing can undo that now.

If he is the musical genius some people suggest, that is failure of the most epic proportions.

That is some cool footage

3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

But I also think that "talented" goes beyond just being good at releasing music.

I accept I phrased that part badly - I more meant he isn't this musical genius, prolific talent that people seem to have him up on a pedestal over and then have to turn themselves in knots trying to explain why he can't output anything of note and is now basically reduced to appearing in cartoons - and hence their constant disappointment. Accept he is not that and everything makes sense and the disappointment goes away.

My point is the only time he has delivered anything worthwhile was in a 5 year period with Slash, Steve, Izzy and Duff around. They bought out the best in him and in each other. Axl tried it before and has tried it after and went nowhere. That's not going to change.

Hence, my surprise that people are still surprised or even expecting anything. Far from being the musical genius of GNR, he was more the guy heavily dependent on the others. And all of the output both before and after GNR points to this. Look at it through this lens, which is a much simpler explanation that fits the facts.

2 minutes ago, Tadsy said:

Listen I know this thread has a lot of people bagging axl for a lot of things, but this post is one of the most bizarre I’ve read! 
Axl isn’t talented??? 🤣 

Ok so prior to being around Slash, Duff, Izzy, Steve - he had what 2 bands that got to demo stage but didn't go any further ?

He was in a band with Tracii guns, who left and managed to start over and get a band signed and gold/platinum records - but that didn't go anywhere with Axl.

Finally he gets to Slash, Duff, Izzy, Steve and has 5 or so years of quality output - they become the biggest band in the world.

The 'band' leave one by one., and all start from scratch and put out a number great albums.

Axl meanwhile not only owns the name, but has the record contract and all the bands infrastructure around him - and yet in 30 years manages one underwhelming album. (And one that Slash/Duff's new band outperforms)

So in a 40 year career - there is 5 years of solid delivery and those 5 years happen to be when Slash, Duff, Izzy and Steve are around him. Numerous attempts before and after with out them went nowhere. Those others on their own still delivered a lot.  And yet I'm supposed to believe Axl was the supreme talent ? Sorry not buying it.

18 minutes ago, 19AT5 said:

At the very least, Axl is  (or at least was) a very talented singer in his heyday. 

I totally agree that for a few years there (when he had the others around him) he was great.

What I'm getting at is there is this perception that he is some sort of incredible talent and to keep this perpetuated people come up with ever more complicated and convoluted narratives to try and explain what he has basically managed to do jack shit in the last 30 years. Basically thinking there is some twisted, genius master plan and this next epic is just around the corner.

Occam's razor would suggest a far more simpler explanation is the correct one. That simpler one is that he just isn't capable and that is why we've seen nothing.

I'm surprised people are still surprised nothing is going on. How about look at GN'R through this lens :

Axl really isn't very talented at all. He pretty much 100% relied upon the 4 other people in the band to establish his career. He knew without them he'd fade into obscurity. Hence his only option was to get control of the name - that would guarantee him status and income, even without doing anything else of note.  He knew this was his only chance so took it.

Add in a dose of mental health issues and everything since '91 makes sense and why nothing now should be a surprise.

I'd change the ownership of the "GNR" name to being : 20% Izzy, Adler, Slash, Duff, Axl each and need 61% to make decisions.

You've got to get control away from crazy/anything for a $.

You'd see interesting things start to happen with the band then.

1 hour ago, k12 said:

Legit scary how fast the years go

It’s definitely an age thing, it goes faster as you get older.

The weird thing is the quasi reunion is now longer than the original band. I only became aware of the original band in late ‘87 so really lived it for a bit over 2 years, but as a kid it seemed like the original band was around for an eternity.

6 hours ago, MaskingApathy said:

And now the video is gone...

I don’t know if it is TB or Axl or who that calls the shots on this debacle, but they are clearly lacking in IQ.

Imagine putting so much more effort into ensuring your fans can’t see/hear stuff than to actually releasing stuff.

As has been alluded to if they put half as much effort into finding gems for the Boxset that they put into finding gems to remove from YouTube it could have been something really cool instead of the embarrassing exercise in useless merch and rehashing common tunes that it was.

14 hours ago, 31illusions said:

 Steven stops playing near the end and starts again. Steven also continues playing after they've ended. Still it's a fun Jam.

I didn't notice that before, but that's the sort of stuff I used to love from that era - made every show seem spontaneous and somehow more real. Half the time I don't even notice it, its when the stuff is played note perfect it sounds wrong and stands out to me. Ritz is the classic case, epic show with so many imperfections. I went back and watched that Taste's Good ending again -  it seemed between Slash, Duff & Steve no one was really sure when to end the thing, but somehow it all came together and worked - great stuff.

15 minutes ago, Sisyphus said:

I don't see it that way. They were a young and hungry band. I honestly don't think the number of releases had much to do with him.

He's resentful and bitter ever since he was booted. He can't let go off the fact Axl didn't want to work with him anymore so he's just badmouthing him any chance he gets while glorifying Izzy to death for obvious reasons.

On the first point I'd suggest the evidence suggests otherwise. GNR were screwing up big time, Geffen, Zutaut specifically, called in Niven to sort things out. He conceived LLAS, and suddenly their first release it out. Appetite got delivered under his watch, Jungle and the Ritz only happened due to his GW connections - he was also heavy in the concept of the Jungle video. Without him the Aerosmith tour doesn't happen which is pivotal for the band. Lies also comes out. UYI did take a long time I'll give you that, but during that time he did strategise to push the albums back and go out on tour to force Geffen to the re-negotiating table, which was a great commerical result for GNR. He left just shy of the UYI release (with incidently most of TSI in the can). Since then 30 years goes by and 1 album of original material with one original member. One thing Niven certianly had was he represented all 5 members - no 1 member got priority and he was no "yes man" to Axl. I certainly agree that once Axl got control implosion of the band was inevitable, but I don't believe Axl would have been able to get control if Niven was still there. TBH the only area I can fault Niven, is he didn't handle the Steven situation better - losing Steven was really the beginning of the implosion in my mind, the first domino, and I wonder if something could have been done differently.

Regarding the bitterness, there I totally agree with you. However for different reasons. I don't think Niven lives off GN'R, he talks just as much about GW and I've heard him talk about his involvement with the Pistols and early Motley a lot as well. I think he is proud of all the bands he was involved with. I think the reason he is bitter wrt GNR and particularly Axl is for monetary reasons. He signed away future royalties he was owed for a lump sum payout and this was because he didn't want to deal with Axl anymore. I think this was a serious mis-calcualtion as it was based off certified sales of albums that were much lower even at the time than reality. He probably collected a few mio in payout, even though he had done the work according to his contract that would have entitled him to 5-10x that much. I think he screwed up majorly in that regard and only realised what an error that was later and regretted it, leading to the bitterness. I'm sure it hurts for him as well if my assessment is correct in that he was so important to the success but has basically been written out of it.

2 minutes ago, Towelie said:

The covers always bothered me. I never listen to them and they're piss breaks during the concerts (especially the tedious KOHD).

I agree with KOHD totally - it is the only song I’ve heard the original band do live which I don’t like and they did it most shows since it was introduced. I just don’t get it.

So many great original GNR songs why waste setlist time with this ? If I wanted to hear KOHD I’d go to a Bob Dylan show.

I think there is an interview with Izzy where he says it was his favourite song to play live as they elevated it through the arrangement or similar - but it is BS they stole the idea of doing it in that style off a band called Heaven who did it  that way in about ‘85ish.

The ballads are probably the most polarising (aside from My World) . If you move them to their own EP, which would probably be close to album length anyway, those that love them can still enjoy them and those that hate them can avoid them and not have them messing up what they might find an otherwise great album.

Ditch the pointless covers and then there is probably only a couple of tracks to cull to make a decent album.

ETA - still won’t top Appetite though and IMO Lies either but I understand many wouldn’t agree with the Lies part. I do find Paitence infinitely more interesting, creative and flat out better than any of the UYI ballads.

On 3/17/2021 at 4:57 PM, Sisyphus said:

Niven comes off as such a gigantic prick to me. Good riddance.

Niven could be a total prick at times which is why he was so beneficial to GN’R - he was no yes man - so I’m not so sure about the ‘good riddance’ bit.

Under his management GNR went from an unheard of band to the biggest band in the world In no time and saw 4 separate releases in 5 years. Since his departure the band basically disintegrated and has managed 1 OG release with 1 OG member in 30 years.

Niven was both vital and under appreciated due to revisionist history as he wasn’t a yes man to the person who controls the legacy.

23 hours ago, Sweersa said:

In this world, I would say most commercially released art (music, movies) etc. are done so to maximize profits. (In many cases this is unfortunate) 

Star Wars, Marvel, and the like are brands. GN'R is no different. 

It seems like you are trying to defend GNR here - but you do realise that this is literally the definition of a ‘sell out’ ?

BTW - don’t get me wrong, I agree with you, they care much more about $ than musical integrity.

8 hours ago, DurhamGirl said:

  First of all Axl was not a 'well known wife beater' get your facts right, accusations are just that, anybody can accuse us of anything to make a point/dosh for themselves, stop believinng everything you read.  So do we outlaw all films, books, tv before 1990 or do we allow folk to use their intelligence and just enjoy.

 

You assumed I was talking about Axl even though I didn't mention any names....... now I wonder why that is ?

It's almost as if its because that is the person that has had numerous such allegations put to them over the years from wives, girlfriends, friends of girlfriends, band mates, musician friends, other friends, first hand witnesses.......and someone who also puts lines like "Wife Beating Has Been Around for 10,000 Years" and other similar sentiments on their album covers and lyrics.

I don't believe in cancel culture at all and I certainly don't believe things should be banned before 1990. My issue is the phoney, hypocritical nature of the way Duff is going about things and the attitude of 'when me or my friends say this stuff, <insert some sort of explanation here of why it shouldn't be interpreted that way>, but when anyone else does cancel them as they must be pure evil'

On 2/26/2021 at 3:58 AM, DownUnderScott said:

Nope, I’ve been following this band for 30 years and rule no.1: Nothing is ever confirmed in the world of Gn’fn’R unless it is released, in the shops, and in your possession 😁

This is the right.

Here’s another little known example and something that would have been cool for the box set. I’ve got a video interview with Adler that has never made it onto YouTube or anywhere else on the net that I know of. It’s from ‘89 I think - when he was at that baseball match the rockers did. The interviewer is a German lady so I’m guessing it was for German MTV.

Anyways he tells her that the night before the band were all out the Rainbow recording themselves sitting around talking about the old days and it was going to be released as the b-side of the upcoming Nightrain single.

Obviously this never got released, but Cleary happened and the recording must be in the vault somewhere.

A bit off topic but while we are on Nightrain and the box set, a guy named Jeff Fenster recorded a harmonica part for the song for Appetite that never made the final cut but would have been cool for the box set. Steve and Izzy also used to do a cool little intro that they played live at least once (Music Machine) and demo’d on the Pasha demos. Again something that would have been a nice addition as it isn’t that well known.

2 hours ago, Draguns said:

I still post there. I have followed that message board since 1996. Jarmo and there was another person that had a website, which I followed. I think his name was Jeff. They were the first two that came on the web which I followed. 

Jeff Boerio.....that is the first one I remember popping up it was certainly pre-Slash leaving and there was some Axl fax or something early on that I remember being talked about on there...

I think I've mentioned a few times on here, the debates today are the same as the debates then, it's just about 5 generations of posters on. I remember having Adler V Sorum debates back then now its Adler v Frank (well actually there aren't many Frank boosters around).

And as far as new music goes.....well that one even went back to the magazines in '89.

But in terms of internet fans, I've seen successive generations get excited, slowly lose enthusiasm, ending up hostile and then disappearing. There just seems to have been another generation pop up each time to replace them !

2 hours ago, lame ass security said:

Man, do you think everything Axl does has to be about Guns and "huge career decisions"? He's just having some fun. 

Ahhh it was a joke (ie me 'just having some fun').

Or maybe I do genuinely believe that someone's kid is managing GNR (the contract is signed in red crayon) and that Axl voted in a fan poll flagging his next move (it's edgy to announce your news that way) ? The truth will only be revealed next poll.....

Hilarious. Doesn’t one of TB have a kid ? It’s almost like they  (ie the kid) are running the show now - “Loony Tunes and bed time stories was all the rage last year, but everyone has moved on. Scooby Doo is so hot right now amongst my peers, that’s where I think we should focus - it’ll be a huge career move”

When I started the below thread, I threw the cartoon bit in as a joke. I assumed the one person who voted for it was joking - in hindsight it was probably Axl being serious. I never though for a second it would be the next move :
 

22 hours ago, allwaystired said:

I think the Pistols did it alright though - a few gigs, then knock it on the head. I don't think they should have done those other reformations though. I think they did it twice more didn't they? 

I think 2 more was right - 02/03 for the Jubilee and then again 07/08. They never came to Oz again so unfortunately I didn't get to see them on those runs.

There is footage of one of the Brixton shows and it was really awesome, I know you're not into nostalgia but I think you'll like it as they are still on fire :