Chinese democracy

[Chris 55]

It sold damn fucking well considering IMO. Not far behind Velvet Revolver's stuff and they had THREE EX-GUNS members and the ex lead singer of Stone Temple Pilots plugging them unashamedly like total cash whores. Axl didn't even need to promote the album. He wasn't looking to appeal to the general music listening public with CD. He was making the kind of album that he wanted to make regardless of public expectations and without wondering how much airplay he'd get. Props to Axl for not lowering himself to media/cash whore level as the other members of Guns have done.

The album sold largely off the GNR name. Velvet Revolver had to make themselves known regardless of who was in the band.

[Ali]

And the old band broke up because Slash and the others were afraid of a change of musical direction in general.

No, they realized it was beneath them to resort to trend chasing in an effort to be NIN 2.0. They had to the foresight to understand that people wanted Guns N' Roses to sound like Guns N' Roses, not a band doing their best to sound like Trent Reznor 2.0 because the sound was popular at the time.

Axl's quest to make an NIN industrial/techno/metal influenced album because it was the popular sound at the time is as shameless as KISS having made a disco album at the same time because that was the "in" sound at the time and represented a "change in musical direction" compared to their prior sound. I am proud of Slash and Duff from walking away from that as you would never have seen Zeppelin/Aerosmith/AC/DC or any of the pillars of rock succumbed to worrying about evolving the bands sound to fit the popular sound of the time rather than blazing their own trail.

But, Axl didn't make an industrial album. Sure, there are some songs with some industrial influences, but to say that this album is an effort to be NIN 2.0 is an absurd distortion of reality. Yeah, "Street of Dreams", "Catcher In The Rye", "Scraped", "I.R.S.", "This I Love", etc. are such industrial songs, I actually mistook them for NIN songs

Ali

[Axl Knows]

And the old band broke up because Slash and the others were afraid of a change of musical direction in general.

No, they realized it was beneath them to resort to trend chasing in an effort to be NIN 2.0. They had to the foresight to understand that people wanted Guns N' Roses to sound like Guns N' Roses, not a band doing their best to sound like Trent Reznor 2.0 because the sound was popular at the time.

Axl's quest to make an NIN industrial/techno/metal influenced album because it was the popular sound at the time is as shameless as KISS having made a disco album at the same time because that was the "in" sound at the time and represented a "change in musical direction" compared to their prior sound. I am proud of Slash and Duff from walking away from that as you would never have seen Zeppelin/Aerosmith/AC/DC or any of the pillars of rock succumbed to worrying about evolving the bands sound to fit the popular sound of the time rather than blazing their own trail.

But, Axl didn't make an industrial album. Sure, there are some songs with some industrial influences, but to say that this album is an effort to be NIN 2.0 is an absurd distortion of reality. Yeah, "Street of Dreams", "Catcher In The Rye", "Scraped", "I.R.S.", "This I Love", etc. are such industrial songs, I actually mistook them for NIN songs

Ali

Exactly. Yeah, I can totally imagine Trent Reznor singing This I Love. Totally his thing.

[Kickingthehabit]

Where did the five million come from? If I recall, the only source provided was Universal Chile. Is that still the case? Soundscan and the United World Chart (the two most credible sources available for domestic and international sales) don't have anything registered close to five million. The figure seems a little inflated. If it were true, it would be considered a major growth. I followed the album for several months and there was virtually no significant spike in sales after its debut week. Industry analysts would have commented on it, simply because the album was a relative failure in the beginning. If it somehow managed to shift five million copies, it would have turned heads..

-Kickingthehabit

[Ali]

Where did the five million come from? If I recall, the only source provided was Universal Chile. Is that still the case? Soundscan and the United World Chart (the two most credible sources available for domestic and international sales) don't have anything registered close to five million. The figure seems a little inflated. If it were true, it would be considered a major growth. I followed the album for several months and there was virtually no significant spike in sales after its debut week. Industry analysts would have commented on it, simply because the album was a relative failure in the beginning. If it somehow managed to shift five million copies, it would have turned heads..

-Kickingthehabit

First, Soundscan is only for the US and Canada. Second, United World Chart is not an official worldwide sales tally. The discrepancy between the numbers that chart showed and where CD ended up in the IFPI's 2008 worldwide sales chart prove that. The IFPI's chart is as official as it gets. Unfortunately, they didn't release the full top 50 for 2009, only the top 10 I believe.

Ali

P.S. United World Chart put CD at #35 for 2008, while the IFPI chart had GN'R at #14.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Ali

[shotgunblues1978]

I don't see how Axl being influenced by a "current" artist or style of music (NIN, industrial) is any worse than him being influenced musically by Elton John or Aerosmith. In either case he's influenced by music he likes no different than most other artists. Also when you consider some of his musical idols (The Beatles, Queen) and how much their styles and sounds evolved over the course of their careers, is it really surprising that he would want to do the same?

Secondly, the only song on CD that even halfway resembles NIN is Shackler's, and only because of the arrangements. The instrumentation and vocals are nothing like NIN. The closest thing to NIN he did was Oh My God which is still a bad ass song

Edited July 17, 2010 by shotgunblues1978

[Kickingthehabit]

First, Soundscan is only for the US and Canada.Second, United World Chart is not an official worldwide sales tally. The discrepancy between the numbers that chart showed and where CD ended up in the IFPI's 2008 worldwide sales chart prove that. The IFPI's chart is as official as it gets. Unfortunately, they didn't release the full top 50 for 2009, only the top 10 I believe.

P.S. United World Chart put CD at #35 for 2008, while the IFPI chart had GN'R at #14.

The IFPI isn't as official as it gets because it is now tantamount to an industry driven machine affiliated with the RIAA. Prior to SoundScan and the United World Chart being introduced as the central tabulation methods for actual physical sales, stores could say whatever total they wanted, and more importantly so could labels and managers. If you read any of the books which have been written about the practices of the record labels over the years – I strongly recommend Hit Men by Frederic Dannen – you'll find out that not only did many labels inflate their actual sales numbers, they would also sell off huge amounts of albums for far less than the actual price in order to gain chart status quickly. This was happening as recently as the mid-80s. SoundScan’s introduction, specifically, was responsible for NWA’s “Straight Outta Compton” achieving top 5 chart success on Billboard, usurping Paula Abdul who at the time was consistently within the top 5. This was all happening while the IFPI was operational..

The organization itself is based on industry trade groups, and since 1997 has had a longstanding anti-piracy campaign. Between 2006-2008, analysts determined album sales were steadily improving, but the IFPI released a dire statement and started pushing hard for ISP legislative intervention. It isn't a credible or independent enough source, because labels are paying hundreds of millions of dollars into it for representation (anti-piracy enforcement, litigation, corporate-friendly laws, etc.) In 2008, major labels EMI, Warner, Universal and Sony BMG were threatening to leave the IFPI and effectively cut off all funding because they argued it was no longer an effective organization..

But if you want to believe in an organization that exists merely to satisfy its shareholders, by all means..

-Kickingthehabit

[shotgunblues1978]

First, Soundscan is only for the US and Canada.Second, United World Chart is not an official worldwide sales tally. The discrepancy between the numbers that chart showed and where CD ended up in the IFPI's 2008 worldwide sales chart prove that. The IFPI's chart is as official as it gets. Unfortunately, they didn't release the full top 50 for 2009, only the top 10 I believe.

P.S. United World Chart put CD at #35 for 2008, while the IFPI chart had GN'R at #14.

The IFPI isn't as official as it gets because it is now tantamount to an industry driven machine affiliated with the RIAA. Prior to SoundScan and the United World Chart being introduced as the central tabulation methods for actual physical sales, stores could say whatever total they wanted, and more importantly so could labels and managers. If you read any of the books which have been written about the practices of the record labels over the years – I strongly recommend Hit Men by Frederic Dannen – you'll find out that not only did many labels inflate their actual sales numbers, they would also sell off huge amounts of albums for far less than the actual price in order to gain chart status quickly. This was happening as recently as the mid-80s. SoundScan’s introduction, specifically, was responsible for NWA’s “Straight Outta Compton” achieving top 5 chart success on Billboard, usurping Paula Abdul who at the time was consistently within the top 5. This was all happening while the IFPI was operational..

The organization itself is based on industry trade groups, and since 1997 has had a longstanding anti-piracy campaign. Between 2006-2008, analysts determined album sales were steadily improving, but the IFPI released a dire statement and started pushing hard for ISP legislative intervention. It isn't a credible or independent enough source, because labels are paying hundreds of millions of dollars into it for representation (anti-piracy enforcement, litigation, corporate-friendly laws, etc.) In 2008, major labels EMI, Warner, Universal and Sony BMG were threatening to leave the IFPI and effectively cut off all funding because they argued it was no longer an effective organization..

But if you want to believe in an organization that exists merely to satisfy its shareholders, by all means..

-Kickingthehabit

So how are they any worse than Soundscan (another company that exists merely to satisfy its shareholders, that is used by the IFPI) or the unofficial world charts you cited (which use a combination of album charts that the IFPI uses and deeply flawed "point system" projections that aren't based on any sort of sales measurements at all and are based on sales in other countries)

[Nintari]

I was just checking and saw that CM has sold more than 5 million copies. With hardly any promo and in today's music industry that isn't that bad..or how much was expected?

http://www.mygnrforum.com/index.php?showtopic=165334&hl=nintari&st=0

ah the thread in which you got your ass kicked like a dozen times

good timessss

You mean the thread where I completely exposed and destroyed the myth making lies and innuendo of a bunch of fucking lunatics who live on the planet make believe? Notice the OP didn't provide a link? See the trend here chachi?

[Guest Apollo]

Props to Axl for not lowering himself to media/cash whore level as the other members of Guns have done.

Props to the media/cash whores for not lowering themselves to trend chasing like Axl, as when they were in Guns they made sure to set trends instead of follow them.

I'm noticing that is a common theme with you when discussing Axl. Why do you insist that he is "chasing trends." Maybe Axl is creating the music he likes.

It's so funny that the slash lovers praise Slash for playing with so many different musicians in different genres............but then bash Axl for having some variety in his music. Slash plays with Rihanna or Fergy and he is just having fun and exploring other types of music. But if Axl doesn't put out Welcome to the Jungle part II, then he is "chasing trends."

Believe it or not, people's tastes change. It's OK for a musician to get creative and NOT just churn out music that sounds exactly the same as the last album they put out.

I'm not an emimen fan, but I think he tears it up in the B.O.B. song Airplanes. Because of that, I'm planning on checking out Em's new album. Doesn't mean I'm "chasing trends." It's fucking music - you enjoy it. You can enjoy musics from different genres. And if Axl was listening to a lot of industrial music at one point, it's OK if he recorded a song with that tone to it.

[Rovim]

Props to Axl for not lowering himself to media/cash whore level as the other members of Guns have done.

Props to the media/cash whores for not lowering themselves to trend chasing like Axl, as when they were in Guns they made sure to set trends instead of follow them.

I'm noticing that is a common theme with you when discussing Axl. Why do you insist that he is "chasing trends." Maybe Axl is creating the music he likes.

It's so funny that the slash lovers praise Slash for playing with so many different musicians in different genres............but then bash Axl for having some variety in his music. Slash plays with Rihanna or Fergy and he is just having fun and exploring other types of music. But if Axl doesn't put out Welcome to the Jungle part II, then he is "chasing trends."

Believe it or not, people's tastes change. It's OK for a musician to get creative and NOT just churn out music that sounds exactly the same as the last album they put out.

I'm not an emimen fan, but I think he tears it up in the B.O.B. song Airplanes. Because of that, I'm planning on checking out Em's new album. Doesn't mean I'm "chasing trends." It's fucking music - you enjoy it. You can enjoy musics from different genres. And if Axl was listening to a lot of industrial music at one point, it's OK if he recorded a song with that tone to it.

It's more than O.K. imo. I think Better is a great song.

[Liquor & Whores]

5 million copies? can anyone give a source proving that?

it would be a great success, if it's true...

[MK83]

5 million copies? can anyone give a source proving that?

it would be a great success, if it's true...

Nobody can give a source because it's not true.

USA: 1 million (to Best Buy)

Europe: 1 million

Rest of the World: 1 - 1.5 million

Since the mid of 2009 noboby is buying CD anymore...and in 2009 BBF talked about 3.2 million...

Edited July 17, 2010 by MK83

[The Glow Inc.]

So, basically, all the sources ( including Universal ) that say 5 millions are pure bullshit and we should trust faceless people on the internet saying it ain't so...because they say so.

M'kay.

Anyway, as I said before, the only people interested in how many copies the album sold usually don't genuinely care about that number ( who cares beside GnR and UMG anyway ? ) but want to use that number for their own agenda :

( "OMG it sold 20 000 copies, lol it flopped HARD" ; "OMG it sold 25 million copies, LOL SLASH" )

[MK83]

So, basically, all the sources ( including Universal ) that say 5 millions are pure bullshit and we should trust faceless people on the internet saying it ain't so...because they say so.

I don't say it's pure bullshit, but with all the numbers and facts we have, it's more realistic that CD sold between 3 and 3.5 million copies worldwide (BBF talked about 3.2 million). And I don't think that Universal Chile or Wiki are reliable sources...

Edited July 17, 2010 by MK83

[HB3]

Who cares? We got the album and it's great. One of the best albums in a very long time. Let's just enjoy it.

[Ali]

First, Soundscan is only for the US and Canada.Second, United World Chart is not an official worldwide sales tally. The discrepancy between the numbers that chart showed and where CD ended up in the IFPI's 2008 worldwide sales chart prove that. The IFPI's chart is as official as it gets. Unfortunately, they didn't release the full top 50 for 2009, only the top 10 I believe.

P.S. United World Chart put CD at #35 for 2008, while the IFPI chart had GN'R at #14.

The IFPI isn't as official as it gets because it is now tantamount to an industry driven machine affiliated with the RIAA. Prior to SoundScan and the United World Chart being introduced as the central tabulation methods for actual physical sales, stores could say whatever total they wanted, and more importantly so could labels and managers. If you read any of the books which have been written about the practices of the record labels over the years – I strongly recommend Hit Men by Frederic Dannen – you'll find out that not only did many labels inflate their actual sales numbers, they would also sell off huge amounts of albums for far less than the actual price in order to gain chart status quickly. This was happening as recently as the mid-80s. SoundScan’s introduction, specifically, was responsible for NWA’s “Straight Outta Compton” achieving top 5 chart success on Billboard, usurping Paula Abdul who at the time was consistently within the top 5. This was all happening while the IFPI was operational..

The organization itself is based on industry trade groups, and since 1997 has had a longstanding anti-piracy campaign. Between 2006-2008, analysts determined album sales were steadily improving, but the IFPI released a dire statement and started pushing hard for ISP legislative intervention. It isn't a credible or independent enough source, because labels are paying hundreds of millions of dollars into it for representation (anti-piracy enforcement, litigation, corporate-friendly laws, etc.) In 2008, major labels EMI, Warner, Universal and Sony BMG were threatening to leave the IFPI and effectively cut off all funding because they argued it was no longer an effective organization..

But if you want to believe in an organization that exists merely to satisfy its shareholders, by all means..

-Kickingthehabit

United World Chart is the central tabulation method for physical sales? Have you seen their tabulation methodology? Denigrate the IFPI as much as you want, but when it comes to tallying worldwide sales, the IFPI's list is accepted by many major publications as the definitive list of worldwide sales, not some website run by two German guys that actually weight the sales of several countries BASED ON IFPI STATISTICS.

Ali

[dimitrisaxl]

I don't see how Axl being influenced by a "current" artist or style of music (NIN, industrial) is any worse than him being influenced musically by Elton John or Aerosmith. In either case he's influenced by music he likes no different than most other artists. Also when you consider some of his musical idols (The Beatles, Queen) and how much their styles and sounds evolved over the course of their careers, is it really surprising that he would want to do the same?

Secondly, the only song on CD that even halfway resembles NIN is Shackler's, and only because of the arrangements. The instrumentation and vocals are nothing like NIN. The closest thing to NIN he did was Oh My God which is still a bad ass song

Good postt shotgunblues1978!

[Lines&Noses]

Props to Axl for not lowering himself to media/cash whore level as the other members of Guns have done.

Props to the media/cash whores for not lowering themselves to trend chasing like Axl, as when they were in Guns they made sure to set trends instead of follow them.

Lol. Axl never went trend chasing. When he was allegedly "trend-chasing" according to you he wasn't even releasing any music, aside from the one song on the End of Days soundtrack. You're fabricating things in order to show Axl up in a bad light. If Axl was a trend chaser he would have done what Slash and the boys did and release a generic retro hard rock album as soon as generic retro hard rock started coming back into style. But Axl has more integrity than that. He released an album he likely knew would be disliked by many old GNR fans and many critics because it contained the music that he WANTED to make rather than what he thought the critics and the public wanted to hear. Slash and the boys have been pandering to the braindead average music consumers for years.

Look the original GnR did not invent blues rock but they did take it make it their own they also did it better than any other band and are remembered because of that.

I don;t see why you criticise the original members for keeping producing the music they have always loved and shock horror promoting it. Why would you not want to promote an album you worked hard and are proud of?

I see some poeple seem to doubt that CD did have insutrial tendencies. Well to my ear Chi Dem, Shacklers and Better could all easily have been on NIN record with reznors vocals. Also Madagascar with it hip hop beats is reminiscent of Korn's Trash and TWAT has mobyesque opening. While street of Dreams is Axl's take on Eltom John in the 70's. I do take your point in that just because Axl for the most part took more contemporary influences it doesn't make them less valid. However, although the new stuff has the Axl lyrics and vocal melodies we all love none of the new material surpasses the material from which it draws unlike the songs of the original band.

Anyway back on topic. I think 5 million (or even 3.5 million depending which figure you believe) is pretty damn good in this day and age. However it would seem that the GnR camp were hoping for something more. In the online chats didn't Axl mention about "we don't knonw how much the streams hurt us" and now he is using it again as part of his case against Azoff. More over the 14 milion paid by Best buy would suggest that they were anticipating better sales too. So while I think the sales are pretty respectible it seems Axl and co were expecting more.

[Tater Totts]

Props to Axl for not lowering himself to media/cash whore level as the other members of Guns have done.

Props to the media/cash whores for not lowering themselves to trend chasing like Axl, as when they were in Guns they made sure to set trends instead of follow them.

Lol. Axl never went trend chasing. When he was allegedly "trend-chasing" according to you he wasn't even releasing any music, aside from the one song on the End of Days soundtrack. You're fabricating things in order to show Axl up in a bad light. If Axl was a trend chaser he would have done what Slash and the boys did and release a generic retro hard rock album as soon as generic retro hard rock started coming back into style. But Axl has more integrity than that. He released an album he likely knew would be disliked by many old GNR fans and many critics because it contained the music that he WANTED to make rather than what he thought the critics and the public wanted to hear. Slash and the boys have been pandering to the braindead average music consumers for years.

I see some poeple seem to doubt that CD did have insutrial tendencies. Well to my ear Chi Dem, Shacklers and Better could all easily have been on NIN record with reznors vocals

I don't get that really, those sounds while having vague industrial tendencies sound nothing like NIN ever did period. I mean Chin Dem maybe but the other two are really not NIN and I say that as a fan of both bands.

[Ali]

Anyone that thinks that "Shackler's Revenge" is an industrial song either doesn't know what industrial music is or doesn't realize what instrument is making what sound in the song.

Ali

[Lines&Noses]

Anyone that thinks that "Shackler's Revenge" is an industrial song either doesn't know what industrial music is or doesn't realize what instrument is making what sound in the song.

Ali

Well it opens with a lot of synch/sampling which reappears in the chorus? Also the distorted vocals are reminiscent of NIN.

Also the change of tempo as you move from the verse to the chorus seems NIN esque to me? Indeed shacklers in general is reminiscent of "Oh My God" in the way its tempo changes and the base line in general .OMG is widely regarded to have strong industrial influences? "mr self destruct" shows you some of the parts I was refering to.

To be fair NIN are so eclectic that its hard not to sound lie one of their songs but I really think Shacklers has industrial elements?

Edited July 18, 2010 by Lines&Noses

[Tater Totts]

I have NINs entire discography and I honestly don't think like Shacklers sounds like any of their sounds really. In particular the shredding.

[SunnyDRE]

I have NINs entire discography and I honestly don't think like Shacklers sounds like any of their sounds really. In particular the shredding.

I could see it on pretty hate machine.

I think CD could a B-sides to The Fragile.

[Axl Knows]

I could see it on pretty hate machine.

I think CD could a B-sides to The Fragile.

You don't know music. Nothing on CD would sound at home on a NIN album. Yah, I can really see Reznor singing "There Was a Time"