"Tommorrow Never Comes"

[Georgy Zhukov]

It's my AP English teacher's all-time favorite book. He acts exactly like Holden, and he named his daughter Phoebe. He has some rare copy of the book, and he used to go to school with a red hunting hat and a shirt that says, "All morons hate it when you call them a moron." He was hardcore. When he went to New York, he made a point to take pictures of all the places mentioned in the book with that hat on.

He was probably my favorite teacher, though. Cynical motherfucker. I loved it.

Seems like he has some issues...

[Kill Devil Hill]

He also made it a homework assignment to walk around school and pretend like you got shot the way Holden did. Easiest Fifty points I ever received.

[sailaway]

I wonder if the trance like state that someone with holden caulfield syndrome goes into is a bit like time becoming a loop in Tomorrow Never Knows. Chapman seemed to get stuck in some state of mind but the following through with his ideas never happened, so tomorrow never comes, he just kind of got more and more fixated and angry.

Brilliant Insight as usual wasted

[wasted]

It's my AP English teacher's all-time favorite book. He acts exactly like Holden, and he named his daughter Phoebe. He has some rare copy of the book, and he used to go to school with a red hunting hat and a shirt that says, "All morons hate it when you call them a moron." He was hardcore. When he went to New York, he made a point to take pictures of all the places mentioned in the book with that hat on.

He was probably my favorite teacher, though. Cynical motherfucker. I loved it.

that's my guess that it's a 60s liberal propaganda. Salinger became a Hindu, basically he was a hippy who thought to remain childlike was sensitive or creative. He's really good at writing characters that have a lot of depth, picking apart the vanity of the upperclasses. but the times they are a changing. Holden meet NWA. I just don't think kids today really identify with Holden. Not saying he isnt a good writer or that it's really any danger, just there are other books. the CIA used it as a trigger for Chapman anyway lol

[sailaway]

He also made it a homework assignment to walk around school and pretend like you got shot the way Holden did. Easiest Fifty points I ever received.

That is disturbing,to say the least,School/and Teachers can warp your mind.

A Working Class Hero is something to be.

[Kill Devil Hill]

@sailaway Disturbing? Everybody thought it was funny and we had fun doing it because, in all honesty, a lot of us did something like that when we were little. Sure, it may seem like a twisted little fantasy, but that's what we did. I used to write stories when I was little, and my favorite part of writing the stories was killing off characters. Of course, I didn't write gross, disturbing things, but I'd, you know, drop bombs on characters on page three, or something, because it was fun to do.

I feel like my interpretation of the book is really different. I found this on one of the worst websites on the planet, I realize, but I completely agree with this person:

Do you think Holden Caulfield from the Catcher in the Rye was crazy?

Okay, so a lot of the “experts” seem to think Holden Caulfield has some mental illness. I didn’t see that though, at all. I believe, if anything, Holden is extremely mentally gifted. He is actually concerned about the world, ya know? He is a very unselfish person, which I believe is rare. And, yet, people are so eager to jump on the fact that there is something wrong with him. Yes, he thinks everyone is a phony, but isn’t that kinda how it really is? There are really so many people in this world who act like tools. How many people actually think about making a mark their mark in the world? And how many people actually go out and make their mark? How many care? Not many, they’re to busy buying fancy cars and expensive cloths for themselves, am I right? I mean, not everyone is selfish and ignorant like that, but I don’t think there is enough of people who aren’t. I mean, if people weren’t so concerned about appearing as something, if they weren’t social tools, but actually were who they are, wouldn’t there be so much more contributed to the world? Maybe there wouldn’t be people dying in Africa, or maybe we’d have a cure for cancer. I mean when the number of deaths in a day is just a number, there is something wrong. I think Holden sees this. And yet, people say Holden is depressed, but I think he just concerned for others. I think he sees what most people just put up blinders to. Furthermore, it frustrates him that some people don’t really care. I think Holden is a cynic, but I also think he is positive. If he was totally negative, like so many people say he is, why would he even care about the world? He is persistent in his feelings and I think he realizes that he probably can’t change the whole world, but I think he wants to change what he can. Ya know, at least lead some horses to water.

That's how I saw the book. I can see it the other way, too, but I thought this was the stronger message.

Sorry I'm keeping this discussion going. The Catcher in the Rye is my second favorite book (behind Ender's Game).

Edited November 25, 2011 by Kill Devil Hill

[wasted]

Holden is like the ultimate adolescent, not growing up is just saying what you want or the truth. and the adult world doesnt work like that, it's all about lying and greed. So I'm thinking Salinger is Holden really, it's like the part of himself he really likes, the truth teller, insightful etc. of course he ends up in a mental hospital because he's completely sane. it's like a Catch 22. and authenticity was really valued in the 60s, and in rock n roll to this day. and this is why Chapman got pissed with Lennon is because Lennon was all you need is Love then kind of left the Beatles and became more of an arch capitalist, like Dylan now. Lennon grew up a bit but Holden or Chapman would call him a phony. but everybody's a phony! So Holden is nailing everyone around him, but really he's the archetypal adolescent. so epic irony. hence the book is more of puzzle than an answer, it's an entertainment. but in someways it's very beautiful work of art.

[sailaway]

Cia and Salinger's Catcher in the rye

This article goes a bit more in depth,metioning that Hinkley and Chapman both had copies of "Catcher" in their possession.

Also look up The Manchurian Candidate and the Queen of hearts in the RFK assasination.

I'm trying to help,not meaning to derail the thread,might be better to continue in an appropriate section.

You can lead a horse to water but~

[Kill Devil Hill]

You can post as many articles as you want, but honestly, it's a book. It's open to interpretation. You and whoever wrote that article can interpret it one way, while I can interpret it another. That's the thing about books.

I don't get how you can see the humor in Axl using the Challenger explosion as AFD's album cover, but not the humor in walking around pretending like you got shot a la Holden Caulfield. For the record, I see humor in both.

@wasted Yeah, I think Holden and Salinger are one in the same. When Holden wanted to call himself H. V. Caulfield, I thought that's what J. D. Salinger was trying to portray. I agree with your whole post as well.

[Kill Devil Hill]

Just read your article, sailaway. It was a pretty good read (especially the bits about the Mansonoids), but I still don't see why The Catcher in the Rye (any book, really) should be banned from schools, nor do I see why it's to blame for John Lennon's death. It's not the epitome of evil; it's an honest account of a teenage boy. As the article put it, blaming the book is like blaming the Beatles for the Manson murders.

I liken things a lot, I realize haha.

[sailaway]

Holden is like the ultimate adolescent, not growing up is just saying what you want or the truth. and the adult world doesnt work like that, it's all about lying and greed. So I'm thinking Salinger is Holden really, it's like the part of himself he really likes, the truth teller, insightful etc. of course he ends up in a mental hospital because he's completely sane. it's like a Catch 22. and authenticity was really valued in the 60s, and in rock n roll to this day. and this is why Chapman got pissed with Lennon is because Lennon was all you need is Love then kind of left the Beatles and became more of an arch capitalist, like Dylan now. Lennon grew up a bit but Holden or Chapman would call him a phony. but everybody's a phony! So Holden is nailing everyone around him, but really he's the archetypal adolescent. so epic irony. hence the book is more of puzzle than an answer, it's an entertainment. but in someways it's very beautiful work of art.

Exactly,and killing someone because they don't measure up to your standards is a perfectly reasonable action.

Granted,Society places great value and merit on success,and people are rewarded with acception for following the rules,even if they are selling their souls in the process.

Authenticity is having integrity,and possessing the fortitude to stand for what you believe in,despite risking being blackballed by society. It is insanely hard to swim against the flow.

I still find the inserted lines in GNR's catcher to mirror "tomorrow never knows" I appreciate details like this.

Catch 22 was a great read too!

[Kill Devil Hill]

I like how we both agree with wasted's post.

[Guest gunns5]

haven't readthe book "yet" but from what I've read in this thread as well as the lyrics in the song, it. has definately prompted me to at some point do so in the near future.

Keep it up

[Kill Devil Hill]

haven't readthe book "yet" but from what I've read in this thread as well as the lyrics in the song, it. has definately prompted me to at some point do so in the near future.

Keep it up

Do it! It's a beautiful book that gets better and better every time you read it. Depending on if you see Holden as an annoying whiny little bitch or if you see him as an amusing teenage boy, I suppose.

You know what part of the book made me really sad, though? That whole Mr. Antolini thing. Holden totally, in my eyes, overreacted.

I'm really bad at staying on-topic.

[sailaway]

Just read your article, sailaway. It was a pretty good read (especially the bits about the Mansonoids), but I still don't see why The Catcher in the Rye (any book, really) should be banned from schools, nor do I see why it's to blame for John Lennon's death. It's not the epitome of evil; it's an honest account of a teenage boy. As the article put it, blaming the book is like blaming the Beatles for the Manson murders.

I liken things a lot, I realize haha.

Actually I never even hinted that it should be banned from schools,and its not an honest account of a teenage boy,it is a totally fictional work. I know I didn't like the debris it left in my mind. There are quite a few readily available articles online concerning "the Holden syndrome",as well as the books alledged connection with several unsavory affairs.

I have heard shit and negative uninformed opinions about Rock being evil,backwards masking,crossroads deals and such right wing fundamentalist malarky my entire life.I don't believe the fearmongers who perpetrate such goolash.

Edited November 25, 2011 by sailaway

[sailaway]

You can post as many articles as you want, but honestly, it's a book. It's open to interpretation. You and whoever wrote that article can interpret it one way, while I can interpret it another. That's the thing about books.

I don't get how you can see the humor in Axl using the Challenger explosion as AFD's album cover, but not the humor in walking around pretending like you got shot a la Holden Caulfield. For the record, I see humor in both.

@wasted Yeah, I think Holden and Salinger are one in the same. When Holden wanted to call himself H. V. Caulfield, I thought that's what J. D. Salinger was trying to portray. I agree with your whole post as well.

That's the beauty about music and books,you can interpret it and mold it into a shape that you can apply to your own life.Nothing wrong with knowledge though,and seeing the multifaceted views.Catcher and The Bell Jar are two books I don't plan on revisiting.They are haunting,and I don't like my mind in those places.

I have one of the darkest,most irreverant,and sarcastic senses of humor you can imagine.So yeah,I totally got the challenger reference,as well as the original video idea for SCOM. I'm warped and bent,finding humor in unlikely places.Maybe its a defense mechanism to cope with issues,tasks,and the world/society in general.

[GnRDuff1]

You can post as many articles as you want, but honestly, it's a book. It's open to interpretation. You and whoever wrote that article can interpret it one way, while I can interpret it another. That's the thing about books.

I don't get how you can see the humor in Axl using the Challenger explosion as AFD's album cover, but not the humor in walking around pretending like you got shot a la Holden Caulfield. For the record, I see humor in both.

@wasted Yeah, I think Holden and Salinger are one in the same. When Holden wanted to call himself H. V. Caulfield, I thought that's what J. D. Salinger was trying to portray. I agree with your whole post as well.

That's the beauty about music and books,you can interpret it and mold it into a shape that you can apply to your own life.Nothing wrong with knowledge though,and seeing the multifaceted views.Catcher and The Bell Jar are two books I don't plan on revisiting.They are haunting,and I don't like my mind in those places.

I have one of the darkest,most irreverant,and sarcastic senses of humor you can imagine.So yeah,I totally got the challenger reference,as well as the original video idea for SCOM. I'm warped and bent,finding humor in unlikely places.Maybe its a defense mechanism to cope with issues,tasks,and the world/society in general.

I don't really get the hunor in either of those two things.. I do however appreciate the intent to shock and rattle some cages. I appreciate both ideas as art and wouldn't mind having access to them. I DO get how someone could see humor in both.

[Kill Devil Hill]

Just read your article, sailaway. It was a pretty good read (especially the bits about the Mansonoids), but I still don't see why The Catcher in the Rye (any book, really) should be banned from schools, nor do I see why it's to blame for John Lennon's death. It's not the epitome of evil; it's an honest account of a teenage boy. As the article put it, blaming the book is like blaming the Beatles for the Manson murders.

I liken things a lot, I realize haha.

Actually I never even hinted that it should be banned from schools,and its not an honest account of a teenage boy,it is a totally fictional work. I know I didn't like the debris it left in my mind. There are quite a few readily available articles online concerning "the Holden syndrome",as well as the books alledged connection with several unsavory affairs.

I have heard shit and negative uninformed opinions about Rock being evil,backwards masking,crossroads deals and such right wing fundamentalist malarky my entire life.I don't believe the fearmongers who perpetrate such goolash.

But you said kids shouldn't be required to read it at school. That's why I was arguing to begin with.

Yes, it may be "fictional," but that doesn't mean it's not honest. Sounds like an oxymoron, but it's not really, is it? Holden is such a real character because of the frankness of his thoughts (probably because of the colloquial diction). That's why it feels honest. Plus, I believe JD Salinger and Holden are the same person basically, which is why he got offended when people called Holden insane.

I don't mind reading other points (that's why I read your article), but I hate when people tell me my interpretation is wrong because of what some snobby book people say. I'll change my mind on a book MAYBE when the author comes out and says his motives.

This thread has taken an interesting turn.

[Georgy Zhukov]

I always saw Holden as a teenager disenchanted by adult life and just wants to go back to being a kid again.

[sailaway]

Just read your article, sailaway. It was a pretty good read (especially the bits about the Mansonoids), but I still don't see why The Catcher in the Rye (any book, really) should be banned from schools, nor do I see why it's to blame for John Lennon's death. It's not the epitome of evil; it's an honest account of a teenage boy. As the article put it, blaming the book is like blaming the Beatles for the Manson murders.

I liken things a lot, I realize haha.

Actually I never even hinted that it should be banned from schools,and its not an honest account of a teenage boy,it is a totally fictional work. I know I didn't like the debris it left in my mind. There are quite a few readily available articles online concerning "the Holden syndrome",as well as the books alledged connection with several unsavory affairs.

I have heard shit and negative uninformed opinions about Rock being evil,backwards masking,crossroads deals and such right wing fundamentalist malarky my entire life.I don't believe the fearmongers who perpetrate such goolash.

But you said kids shouldn't be required to read it at school. That's why I was arguing to begin with.

Yes, it may be "fictional," but that doesn't mean it's not honest. Sounds like an oxymoron, but it's not really, is it? Holden is such a real character because of the frankness of his thoughts (probably because of the colloquial diction). That's why it feels honest. Plus, I believe JD Salinger and Holden are the same person basically, which is why he got offended when people called Holden insane.

I don't mind reading other points (that's why I read your article), but I hate when people tell me my interpretation is wrong because of what some snobby book people say. I'll change my mind on a book MAYBE when the author comes out and says his motives.

This thread has taken an interesting turn.

Nope,you must have misinterpreted my post,I never insinuated that it should be "banned" or in a book burning or any complete nonsense like that.

I was just encouraging you to dive in and read all that has been written concerning its alledged use by the CIA,numerous theories are out there,its interesting.

I too believe that JD Salinger was channeling his own personality into Holden,he was a well-known recluse,that had obviously rejected society,or had difficulty operating within its parameters,I can empathize with that.

However " real" the book seems,it is still a work of fiction,and Salinger won't be offering you any explanations,he died a few years ago.

I found I could definately relate to the book on every level,I didn't actually percieve Holden as insane.But like I said,I did not like the

negative debris it left in my head,this prompted me to research the book,and Salinger.It was an interesting trip down the rabbit hole.

I wasn't surprised that Chapman had the book in his possession when he shot Lennon,I am a huge Beatles fan and Lennon was brilliant,and interesting,I have his Albums and books.

I find GNRs catcher very captivating, and the fact that it also throws in a Subtle reference to " tomorrow never knows" is fucking brilliant. I enjoy the subtle nuances on songs. I love Chidem and have not tired of its layers and lyrical content,adjusting my stereo system to isolate the different blends that comprise the whole.

[wasted]

another element of the book is the symbolism Salinger uses to get over Holden's state of mind. I think this is part of the reason it could have this sinister edge. the writing is very rich and it could sort of subconsciously get in your head. Then you've got the part where Holden lays out his fantasies about the catcher in the rye. I can't remember exactly what he says but it's about saving all the children from growing up. At this point, I was thinking this kid wouldn't be so poetic and heavy handed really. Also we pick up on the symbolism that Salinger entrenches in the text, it's not Holden who does this. So I would say the book isnt all about Holden. It's really Salinger's manifesto of innocence. Holden is more the vehicle he uses.

But then when you look at the song it gets much more about identity. There's various characters playing into it, Holden obviously, and then Chapman in the real world. Then there's Lennon, who you could say had elements of Holden about him, and the book probably was at some point on his anti establishment reading list. Then you've got Axl playing the part of a Holden syndrome sufferer and also doing tribute to Lennon. It's all done in this weird psychedelic grey area where identities are shifting. Not to mention when people hear the song they think Axl is identifying with Holden Caulfield or singing in the first person. It's cool how Axl took the line from the book and turned it on Salinger, even though at some points in life you could be slipping into a holden state of mind.

[sailaway]

I appreciate wasted!

True enough about the rich symbolism,like a written subliminal message that gets stuck in your head.

With the book we have Salinger channeling himself into Holden,but much more insightful and cynical than Holden would have been at that age,and being a perpetual adolescent.

The way Holden described the catcher in the rye concept,if memory stands is that he (Holden) wanted the job of catching kids that were playing in a field of rye,before they fell ie:saving them from adulthood? The field of Rye being symbolic as well,and didn't Queen do Sea of Rye?

With the song,we have a pseudo-psychedelia remeniscent of The Beatles's "Rain",references to Salinger's book,mental images of Chapman,and also Lennon,who was distinctly counter-culture,and rebellious against society.Remember his remarks about "The rest of you just rattle your jewelry" and the religious furor his "The Beatles are more popular than Christ" triggered?

(Although taken out of context)

I definitely see GNRs catcher,as a Lennon tribute,and I like it as well as Elton's Tribute Song,both are Superior to Harrison's contributuon imo.

After all this Exchange about Salinger,Holden,Catcher,and the subliminal stickies that shift me into Manchurian candidate mode I need to Que up " Shaved Fish" "Chidem" and "Revolver" to save me from "Holden Syndrome" and Salingeritis :xmassrudolph:

[Georgy Zhukov]

Finally heard it!

[Guest gunns5]

Finally heard it!

lol better late than never , once you hear it , it's the only thing you hear lol

[Georgy Zhukov]

All I had to do was listen to the actual CD on headphones with the proper settings. It took several listens and finally the words became clear. And it is all I fucking hear!