Romney's speech for NAACP

[Dazey]

Dazey, where is your evidence that he had no problem with the racism in Mormonism?

I would say the fact that he was an active member of the church at a time when the practice was condoned would be reasonable wouldn't you?

No, not necessarily. I'm not saying he was or he wasn't, because I do not know, but it is very conceivable that he was not in favor of the Church of Latter Day Saints' racist teachings and policies. If you are part of an organization that has an aspect that you find wrong, that does not necessarily mean that you bail on it. I think there are two main approaches that leave your moral integrity in tact. 1) You bail or 2) you do your part to change it and/or protest (this is not necessarily some grand gesture that will bring you all kinds of news and notoriety, by the way. In religious organizations, to work change from within, it's often best not to make grand gestures but a whole lot of small ones, which is absolutely not being passive about it. Religious organizations are like Silly Putty. If you pull gently over a longer period of time, it will stretch out gracefully.

If you yank hard all at once it snaps off abruptly). Another thing you can do is to grin and bear it or ignore it, but that's a spineless approach. The hardest, but probably best approach that helps to improve the world a little bit is to work to cause change. I'm not saying Romney did or did not do this because I don't know. That's why I was asking. He could have any number of reasons for staying Mormon. It is quite possible he chose to stay a Mormon because of his belief in most of the teachings and theology, despite parts that he wished would change. Again, not saying this is or is not true, but you don't necessarily just bail on something because it has an ugly part to it. If so, I don't think any of us would have a country, and a lot more of us would be voluntarily unemployed. In fact our whole societies would cease to exist. It's a good thing that people don't just leave something every time an aspect of it is wrong.

You see, I guess I just don't get the whole religion thing in general but that's no secret. I find it really odd and suspicious when religious orders do change these core elements of their faith because I find it hard to believe that any all powerful and omnipotent god would ever suddenly realise that something's a bit fucked up?

"Ooops I'm a silly old god at times, got it all wrong about the darkies. Sorry there chaps, have a revelation or two and go tell Winston he can come in from the fields and join in the fun and games."

I mean think about it really? God just happened to think to himself back in 78 that maybe he'd got it wrong this last 14 billion years and now the civil rights movement and more importantly an increasingly litigious public were changing the tune of the nation he should do something about it? God seems to be very sensitive to lawyers for somebody so powerful don't you think?

Edited July 11, 2012 by Dazey

[TeeJay410]

Dazey, where is your evidence that he had no problem with the racism in Mormonism?

I would say the fact that he was an active member of the church at a time when the practice was condoned would be reasonable wouldn't you?

No, not necessarily. I'm not saying he was or he wasn't, because I do not know, but it is very conceivable that he was not in favor of the Church of Latter Day Saints' racist teachings and policies. If you are part of an organization that has an aspect that you find wrong, that does not necessarily mean that you bail on it. I think there are two main approaches that leave your moral integrity in tact. 1) You bail or 2) you do your part to change it and/or protest (this is not necessarily some grand gesture that will bring you all kinds of news and notoriety, by the way. In religious organizations, to work change from within, it's often best not to make grand gestures but a whole lot of small ones, which is absolutely not being passive about it. Religious organizations are like Silly Putty. If you pull gently over a longer period of time, it will stretch out gracefully. If you yank hard all at once it snaps off abruptly). Another thing you can do is to grin and bear it or ignore it, but that's a spineless approach. The hardest, but probably best approach that helps to improve the world a little bit is to work to cause change. I'm not saying Romney did or did not do this because I don't know. That's why I was asking. He could have any number of reasons for staying Mormon. It is quite possible he chose to stay a Mormon because of his belief in most of the teachings and theology, despite parts that he wished would change. Again, not saying this is or is not true, but you don't necessarily just bail on something because it has an ugly part to it. If so, I don't think any of us would have a country, and a lot more of us would be voluntarily unemployed. In fact our whole societies would cease to exist. It's a good thing that people don't just leave something every time an aspect of it is wrong.

Well even take out the racist parts, how can a reasoned person follow a faith that is factually inaccurate. Not inaccurate as in not logically sound (though there's lots of that too) but verifiably wrong. These falsehoods being true are the very basis of the religion. I have a hard time believing someone who would do that would be a fine president.

However I'm sure Romney like all politicians and people can compartmentalize, but really the matter of his strange and provably false faith is something he should answer to.

[DirtyDeeds]

If you've paid any attention in the multitude of religious debate threads, I've not really hidden what religion I belong to, and it's not Mormonism. I'm personally not a fan of it, and I will never convert to it. Furthermore, I don't like Romney and I'm not voting for him. That said, there are many, many reasons that people belong to a faith community. Chief among those reasons ought to be belief in the core values, teachings, and theology (or at least most of it). Beyond that there are so many various reasons, with one of the biggest probably being community. There is also a sub-culture or sometimes a kind of counter-culture in religion that a lot of people find appealing. Because there is a teaching or policy in your religion that is seen as wrong does not automatically make you a supporter of that teaching or policy. Does every Texan support the death penalty by virtue of their being a part of the State of Texas? They may have a strong Texan pride and identity and abhor the death penalty. They may even act to abolish it. It doesn't mean they move from Texas just because Texas executes a lot of convicted people. You are simplifying something that is not simple.

[Dazey]

If you've paid any attention in the multitude of religious debate threads, I've not really hidden what religion I belong to, and it's not Mormonism. I'm personally not a fan of it, and I will never convert to it. Furthermore, I don't like Romney and I'm not voting for him. That said, there are many, many reasons that people belong to a faith community. Chief among those reasons ought to be belief in the core values, teachings, and theology (or at least most of it). Beyond that there are so many various reasons, with one of the biggest probably being community. There is also a sub-culture or sometimes a kind of counter-culture in religion that a lot of people find appealing. Because there is a teaching or policy in your religion that is seen as wrong does not automatically make you a supporter of that teaching or policy. Does every Texan support the death penalty by virtue of their being a part of the State of Texas? They may have a strong Texan pride and identity and abhor the death penalty. They may even act to abolish it. It doesn't mean they move from Texas just because Texas executes a lot of convicted people. You are simplifying something that is not simple.

Core values and teachings are fine, I'd just prefer they didn't try to muddy the waters by saying they were of divine provenance. I'm cool with the need to belong and longing for a sense of community cos don't we all yearn for that if we're honest? The thing is when you try to say it's all cos god said so then you remove the right of the people to question things in many cases. Romney was being interviewed about the church's stance pre 78 and though he said he was glad to have seen things change he simply would not condemn the old way of doing things. That tells me that though he may not have agreed with the idea or it may have made him uncomfortable, his stance was basically one of acceptance no matter what his objection as "our's is not to question the word of god" and that worries me.

[DirtyDeeds]

Core values and teachings are fine, I'd just prefer they didn't try to muddy the waters by saying they were of divine provenance. I'm cool with the need to belong and longing for a sense of community cos don't we all yearn for that if we're honest? The thing is when you try to say it's all cos god said so then you remove the right of the people to question things in many cases. Romney was being interviewed about the church's stance pre 78 and though he said he was glad to have seen things change he simply would not condemn the old way of doing things. That tells me that though he may not have agreed with the idea or it may have made him uncomfortable, his stance was basically one of acceptance no matter what his objection as "our's is not to question the word of god" and that worries me.

Ok, there, that's all I was asking for. That's a piece of evidence. Thank you.

[Dazey]

Ok, there, that's all I was asking for. That's a piece of evidence. Thank you.

Oh sorry, silly me. I wasn't even answering that other question there but I'm glad I did.

This was the clip.

[shades]

Oh sorry, silly me. I wasn't even answering that other question there but I'm glad I did.

This was the clip.

If you want to act like most others on the Obama bandwagon, and not listen to what "Romney" SAID in the clip, but rather the bait trapping set up the interviewer spewed at the onset of the interview, thats your right.

Romney, Obama, me, you and every other man or woman on the face of the earth has things they both regret, and or have to wrestle with in total faith because of a mixed message or at the very least not being able to accept something in its entirety that we may otherwise 95% believe in in principle.

I believe in God and in Jesus and all the good things my faith represents, being kind to others, respecting others beliefs, the whole love thy neighbor thing, but theres a lot of things, especially in the old testemant I struggle with.

But I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bath water.

That being said,

Simply put, anyone that votes for Obama in November, is either stubborn, doesnt understand how bad he is for the country, or stupid.

you pick one of those because theres no 4th choice my friend.

And as far as the NAACP speech is concerned, they booed when he mentioned the possibility of losing another welfare program.

otherwise they heard him out and agreed on a number of things.

and if black people want to make this a white vs black thing, at least now we know where they stand.

But they may want to recount the numbers.

fool you once, shame on them, fool you twice, shame on you.

Edited July 12, 2012 by shades

[Dazey]

If you want to act like most others on the Obama bandwagon, and not listen to what "Romney" SAID in the clip, but rather the bait trapping set up the interviewer spewed at the onset of the interview, thats your right.

Romney, Obama, me, you and every other man or woman on the face of the earth has things they both regret, and or have to wrestle with in total faith because of a mixed message or at the very least not being able to accept something in its entirety that we may otherwise 95% believe in in principle.

I believe in God and in Jesus and all the good things my faith represents, being kind to others, respecting others beliefs, the whole love thy neighbor thing, but theres a lot of things, especially in the old testemant I struggle with.

But I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bath water.

That being said,

Simply put, anyone that votes for Obama in November, is either stubborn, doesnt understand how bad he is for the country, or stupid.

you pick one of those because theres no 4th choice my friend.

And as far as the NAACP speech is concerned, they booed when he mentioned the possibility of losing another welfare program.

otherwise they heard him out and agreed on a number of things.

and if black people want to make this a white vs black thing, at least now we know where they stand.

But they may want to recount the numbers.

fool you once, shame on them, fool you twice, shame on you.

I simply said he refused to condemn the past actions of his church which is the truth. I'm not bringing Obama or even politics at all into it; he should just have had the balls to simply say that the church was in the wrong before 78 should he not? I don't recall saying he should abandon his faith at all but he made himself look silly by refusing to answer the question.

I listened very carefully to what "Romney" SAID in the clip and this was my comment on it.

Romney was being interviewed about the church's stance pre 78 and though he said he was glad to have seen things change he simply would not condemn the old way of doing things. That tells me that though he may not have agreed with the idea or it may have made him uncomfortable, his stance was basically one of acceptance no matter what his objection as "our's is not to question the word of god" and that worries me.

At what point in that statement did I make an error cos I'm pretty sure that's fairly accurate?

Edited July 12, 2012 by Dazey