NBA Thread

[Apollo]

Oh lighting!!!!!!!!!!!

You keep contradicting yourself to try and make your argument appear stronger.

You keep going on and on about how Humphries helps you with the salary cap......but then later say that I value contracts too much!!!

Let's keep it simple.

You seem really high on Humphries salary cap relief. You are totally ignoring the facts.

At the time of the trade offer, Humphries had TWO years on his contract, 12 million per year. Vuc has four years at an average of two million per year. NO team in the NBA would trade Vuc and his contract for Humphries. Except for you.

Why would you play the worse player 24 million dollars for two years when you could get a younger, better player for 2 million a year for four years??? Why would Orlando want to cripple their salary cap for two years with humphries just so they could take 12 million off their cap in 3 years????

Orlando got the salary cap YOU Keep talking about..........by NOT taking on the 24 million dollar Humphries contract. IE: They didn't have to pay 24 million dollars over two years for him. Instead, they paid a more productive player 2 million a year. SAVING THEMSELVES 10 million dollars a year for the the next two years!

I am truly confused as how you don't see this. Taking Humphries instead of Vuc is a WORSE salary cap move for Orlando. A terrible one, in fact. In your way, Orlando is forced to spend 24 million dollars. In the deal they took, they spend 8 million. And get a better, younger player.

And you missed the point on the good team bad team comparison. You cannot take a good team/bad team comparison straight across the board like you are doing. Each team's situation is unique. YOu can't take one or two specific examples and use that as a comparison for every team in the history of the nba. If your team sucks and has one super star, guess what? That guy is going to draw the opposing team's BEST defender every night. You think that's an easier situation to be in than playing on a team that has an all pro point guard and you never get doubled teamed, because your team has 2-3 other studs?

You disregard stats for players on bad teams - I don't. People have to earn their playing time and have to earn their stats. It isn't like Miami doesn't bring Leborn, bosh and DWade to the arena when they play Orlando. Orlando players are putting up their stats against NBA competition - just like every other player is.

My way ensures they stay mediocre?

By compiling young players and first round draft picks..........with low salary............and building a team from the bottom up is a way to stay mediocre? Seriously?

Oh, and it looks like Bynum might now be out for the entire season. You still think he is a max player and that Philly made a good deal to get him?

Edited March 5, 2013 by Groghan

[LightningBolt]

You keep going on and on about how Humphries helps you with the salary cap......but then later say that I value contracts too much!!!

I absolutely never said this. I said you care too much about these value deals that Vucevic and Afflalo are on right now. Completely different. Yeah, Vucevic is on a cheap contract right now. Who fucking cares? They aren't going anywhere while he's on that deal. It's not like a championship team nabbed that missing piece on the cheap. They're a bad team with bad players so who cares if one decent one is on a cheap deal? They suck and will suck until his deal is up, then they'll either pay him a lot of money (and since it's the NBA, probably more money than he's worth) or let him go. His cheap contract does nothing to help them right now unless they acquire the superstar pieces they need in the immediate future and are suddenly contending for a title. But I'll take a wild guess and say that doesn't happen. How much per year Vucevic and Afflalo are making on their current contracts is completely irrelevant, is all I'm saying. They should have cared more about obtaining future cornerstones for a good team than getting value deals. Brook Lopez is making twice as much money as them, but he'd go a longer ways to helping them turn the corner.

Let's keep it simple.

You seem really high on Humphries salary cap relief. You are totally ignoring the facts.

At the time of the trade offer, Humphries had TWO years on his contract, 12 million per year. Vuc has four years at an average of two million per year. NO team in the NBA would trade Vuc and his contract for Humphries. Except for you.

Why would you play the worse player 24 million dollars for two years when you could get a younger, better player for 2 million a year for four years??? Why would Orlando want to cripple their salary cap for two years with humphries just so they could take 12 million off their cap in 3 years????

Orlando got the salary cap YOU Keep talking about..........by NOT taking on the 24 million dollar Humphries contract. IE: They didn't have to pay 24 million dollars over two years for him. Instead, they paid a more productive player 2 million a year. SAVING THEMSELVES 10 million dollars a year for the the next two years!

I am truly confused as how you don't see this. Taking Humphries instead of Vuc is a WORSE salary cap move for Orlando. A terrible one, in fact. In your way, Orlando is forced to spend 24 million dollars. In the deal they took, they spend 8 million. And get a better, younger player.

Humphries and Vucevic are only one piece of the proposed trades. Vucevic is more valuable by himself. He can still develop into a better player and he's certainly not bad for Orlando to have. But I still don't think you understand the value behind Humphries. I'll concede he's not as valuable as Vucevic (not sure I ever said he was more valuable since the trade occurred when Vucevic looked like trash), but that $12M in cap space is a big deal. But when you add in the rest of the deal (Lopez and Brooks vs. Afflalo and Harkless), I'm taking Lopez and Brooks all day.

And you missed the point on the good team bad team comparison. You cannot take a good team/bad team comparison straight across the board like you are doing. Each team's situation is unique. YOu can't take one or two specific examples and use that as a comparison for every team in the history of the nba. If your team sucks and has one super star, guess what? That guy is going to draw the opposing team's BEST defender every night. You think that's an easier situation to be in than playing on a team that has an all pro point guard and you never get doubled teamed, because your team has 2-3 other studs?

You disregard stats for players on bad teams - I don't. People have to earn their playing time and have to earn their stats. It isn't like Miami doesn't bring Leborn, bosh and DWade to the arena when they play Orlando. Orlando players are putting up their stats against NBA competition - just like every other player is.

Then give me some examples. I agree with your logic to an extent, but the stats have shown time and time and time and time again that decent players on bad teams will fill up the stat sheets a hell of a lot more. I'm not saying that 5 year olds would fill up the stat sheet. They need to be NBA caliber players, obviously. But Chris Bosh on the Raptors will put up way more stats than Chris Bosh on the Heat. It's a fact. Vucevic on the Magic would put up way more stats than Vucevic on Thunder.

My way ensures they stay mediocre?

By compiling young players and first round draft picks..........with low salary............and building a team from the bottom up is a way to stay mediocre? Seriously?

I don't think either of our ways "ensures" anything, to be honest. But you have to make the moves for the possible super stars. So many teams have put together good supporting casts and role players, but have failed to find the super star and they've done fuck all with all of those low salary decent players. Look at the Atlanta Hawks. Their best player has been Josh Smith. Despite a good roster built from the ground up, they went nowhere and they're going nowhere as long as they don't have those championship cornerstones.

Oh, and it looks like Bynum might now be out for the entire season. You still think he is a max player and that Philly made a good deal to get him?

When was the last time I said Philly made a good deal to get Bynum? It's obviously not worked out. I've stated as much in this thread. My point is that trading for Bynum was a risk worth taking. We were one of those good teams that drafted decent players on cheap contracts like you want the Magic to do. Guess where that got us? Absolutely fucking nowhere. That kind of rebuilding just rarely works in the NBA. You need to take the risks for the superstars and I don't regret for a second that the Sixers tried to do that with Byum. A team with Iguodala leading it peaked in the second round of the playoffs, and even they were lucky to get there. Bynum didn't work out, clearly, but the mentality was the right one, all the same. This isn't the goddamn NFL. I think you don't understand that. If you don't have a superstar, good luck doing anything in the NBA. That's why I'm fine with the Sixers rolling the dice to obtain a superstar, even if it didn't work out. Bynum didn't work out, but the fact that the front office realized that you can't win a championship in the NBA without a star player is nice all the same. And this is fucking Philadelphia. Nobody wants to come here. So we had two choices. 1) Trade for a superstar. 2) Tank and pray that you get one in the draft. Boom. There are your choices if you're the Philadelphia 76ers.

So, again, you're free to think the deal the Magic took was the best one. It turned out better than I thought. I still think the Nets one would have been preferable, mostly because of Brook Lopez being involved. He's the kind of guy a franchise can build around. There is nobody like that on the Magic roster right now. It's much harder to obtain the pieces you build around in the NBA than the role players. Orlando got nice, young role players in that deal. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. I hope you can at least admit that they still need legitimate star players before they can do anything. Neither trade was going to set up Orlando for life. They were going to need to do a lot of work either way. But holy shit you're acting like they're knocking on the door right now. They fucking blow. They got two good role players in a trade and you're acting like they're geniuses that just won the trade of the century.

EDIT: For the record, I'm done discussing this. We've already dragged this shit out enough in this thread and we've done nothing but debate in circles, and it's annoying. I've already conceded that the deal turned out a lot better than I was expecting. It is not, however, some amazing trade that set up the Magic to suddenly turn into a great team like you're making it out to be. They flipped Dwight Howard for two good role players. Whatever. This isn't the fucking NFL and I think you're looking at rebuilding from an NFL view point. So yeah, I'm done. You clearly don't comprehend where I'm coming from, even though I've conceded more than enough with this argument.

Edited March 5, 2013 by LightningBolt

[ronaldo9]

Remember Renaldo Balkman? Looks like he decided to channel his inner-Sprewell in the Philippines.

[Apollo]

Agreed that we will never agree on most of your main points. So I will let you have the last word on most of it.

I still don't understand your obsession with Humphries 12 million dollar contract though. You ramble on about how I'm missing the point and Vuc's contract means nothing in your first rant. But then later you say I don't understand the value of Humpries 12 million!!!!! Dude, you can't argue both sides.

Let me carefully make my point ONE more time, as you seem to be completely ignoring the obvious.

Vuc is a better player than Humphries. Younger, cheaper and more talented.

WHY in the world would adding Humphries 12 million dollar contract for two years.......just so you can drop that number from your salary cap in two years..........be a good thing???? You think that deleting the 12 million - in two years - is going to help them.

By NOT taking Humprhies and instead taking a more productive player at 2 million a year, they ACCOMPLISHED your goal of lowering their salary cap............THIS YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They didn't have to pay out 24 million to Humphries before REMOVING his salary from their cap.

Your way they spend 24 million dollars on a crap player.

The way they did it, they spend 4 million on a better player. SAVING themselves 20 million dollars in the process.

Humphries salary was one of the worst things about that proposed deal.

As for our difference of opinion on building teams.

I'm more old school. I like to see teams build up their franchise through the draft and developing their own players. With a free agent or two. And that's regardles of the sport.

You are more of the new school espn video game fantasy league age. I appreciate what they do and that they can win, but you have to admit, teams like the Lakers, Celtics and Heat are basically BUYING NBA championships. They don't need to build and develop a team. They just need to add a Garnett and Ray Allen or a Lebron and Bosh.

I'm a Dodger fan for life.

And I will be happy if they win the championship this year.

But it won't mean any where near the same as when the boys were winning with players like Steve Garvey, Fernando and Hershiser.

[LightningBolt]

Agreed that we will never agree on most of your main points. So I will let you have the last word on most of it.

I still don't understand your obsession with Humphries 12 million dollar contract though. You ramble on about how I'm missing the point and Vuc's contract means nothing in your first rant. But then later you say I don't understand the value of Humpries 12 million!!!!! Dude, you can't argue both sides.

Let me carefully make my point ONE more time, as you seem to be completely ignoring the obvious.

Vuc is a better player than Humphries. Younger, cheaper and more talented.

WHY in the world would adding Humphries 12 million dollar contract for two years.......just so you can drop that number from your salary cap in two years..........be a good thing???? You think that deleting the 12 million - in two years - is going to help them.[

By NOT taking Humprhies and instead taking a more productive player at 2 million a year, they ACCOMPLISHED your goal of lowering their salary cap............THIS YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They didn't have to pay out 24 million to Humphries before REMOVING his salary from their cap.

Well honestly the idea I'd personally have in mind is that the cap space would come later on. Cap space means nothing to them at this point in time, since even if they had cap space no one would want to go there. Being crappy for three years and getting high draft picks and building an appealing landing spot with Brook Lopez and highly drafted prospects would probably be the smartest route. I've already said that Vucevic is more valuable in an earlier post, but Humphries' contract definitely does have value, which is all I was ever trying to say. The biggest reason I'm taking that deal is because of Brook, again.

As for our difference of opinion on building teams.

I'm more old school. I like to see teams build up their franchise through the draft and developing their own players. With a free agent or two. And that's regardles of the sport.

You are more of the new school espn video game fantasy league age. I appreciate what they do and that they can win, but you have to admit, teams like the Lakers, Celtics and Heat are basically BUYING NBA championships. They don't need to build and develop a team. They just need to add a Garnett and Ray Allen or a Lebron and Bosh.

You're actually wrong about this. I'm a fan of draft builded teams in the NFL and NHL definitely. I just don't think it's really a viable strategy in the NBA. In the NBA, you almost NEED to use free agency and trading to become good. It's very rare to build a legitimate championship caliber team through the draft. OKC is a legit contender with that philosophy. The Spurs used this philosophy. I'm not sure who else did. I don't LIKE that teams are "buying" championships, but in the NBA you almost have to, since you have to luck into championship pieces in the draft. Sixers tried building through the draft. They got Iguodala, Holiday, Thad Young, and Evan Turner, but it didn't work out for them. They were stuck as a 6-8 seed and got mediocre draft picks year in and year out and were essentially stuck in mediocrity. Same with the Hawks, though they were a bit better. If you're not a championship team in the NBA, there are two things you should try to do. You should either tank and get the best pick possible to land a franchise player in the draft (the only time the draft works is when you're terrible), or you should try blowing up your mediocre core and maybe try trading some good-not-great guys for superstars (what the Sixers tried doing, but it obviously backfired for them).

In a perfect world, the NBA wouldn't be so fundamentally flawed with their contracts and it'd be more feasible to build homegrown teams, but outside of some very rare cases it's not possible.

Anyway, do we all agree that the Heat are almost definitely winning the championship this year?

Edited April 3, 2013 by LightningBolt

[Apollo]

I guess part of our disagreement is that I don't value Lopez as much as you do. For 15 million bucks a year (or whatever he gets), I expect more than 19 points and 6 rebounds a game. Just me personally, I would take a center who is younger, makes 2 million compared to 15 million, and gives me 13 points and 12 rebs a game.

13 and 12...........2 million

19 and 6..........15 million

Especially when you throw in having to eat Humphries contract of 12 million a year for two years!

6 points and 6 boards............12 million a year for two years

or

16.5 points, 4 rebs, 3 assists for 7 million

8 points, 4 rebounds...........19 years old, 2 million a year

I would rather have the low salaries and the combined talent of Vuc, Affalo and Harkless..........over the salary of the two Nets, as well as building my franchise around Lopez. Especially if you throw in the fact of Orlando also receiving a basket full of draft picks.

I get your point - and agree with it for the most part!!!!!!!!!! I just don't think that Lopez fits the bill as a player to build your franchise around. Think about it............New Jersey was willing to trade him away for DHoward!!!!!

And you agree with me about the records thing! With Lopez and Humphries, maybe Orlando goes 30-50 instead of 20-60..........what is the point of that? A top five pick this year is better than winning 10 extra games and getting the 15th pick!

THIS SEASON

Ya, is it really even feasable to think of anybody winning it all besides Miami?

OK City is going to be tough again, but you can never trust Westbrook.

The Clippers are fun to watch. I used to actually be a fan of theirs, but I can't stand the way Blake and Chris Paul and really about 75% of their team whines and cries all game long about every call or non-call. Watch big Blake.....he seems like a huge baby. Always whining.

San Antonio.........is this the year they finally crack through again?

That seems to be the only competition.

What do you think? Anybody have a chance?

[LightningBolt]

Yeah, I can't really see anyone other than the Heat winning this.

I really hope LeBron goes to another team after next season. The NBA is boring right now. This superteam bullshit with these BFF's joining forces sucks.

[LightningBolt]

Russell Westbrook is going to be out until at least the WCF. A possible Clippers/Thunder series just got way more interesting.

[DirtyDeeds]

Bump over Miser threads.

[Coma16]

Rose and rondo have been out all season but it sucks for the Lakers and OKC to lose such big parts at this stage.

[Apollo]

Wow. Without Rose, the Bulls shock the Heat! This series could be over in 4 more games, but if Chicago somehow managed to knock off the Heat........top 10 upsets of all time?

The guy who voted for Mello over Lebron for MVP should be ashamed of himself. Not only did Carmello miss almost 20% of the season because of injuries, but Lebron clearly had the superior season and it wasn't even close. Plus throw in that Lebron is a more dominant defensive player than Carmello.

Lighting.....how ya feeling about Brook Lopez now? Remember the talk about how you wouldn't want your team to be mired in mediocrity (sp)???? I'd rather a rebuilding team go 20-62 two years in a row and get a couple top draft picks to build around..........as opposed to making the playoffs but losing in the first round and getting bottom of the round draft picks! Lopez isn't the building block of a championship contender, we just witnessed that. Nor his Humphries and his partying the night before the last game!

[Coma16]

Wow. Without Rose, the Bulls shock the Heat! This series could be over in 4 more games, but if Chicago somehow managed to knock off the Heat........top 10 upsets of all time?

Don't forget that the Rose-less Bulls put an end to the Heat's crazy winning streak. They match up well against the Heat but I don't think they will be able to beat them 3 more times.

Great comeback by the Spurs last night!

[LightningBolt]

Lighting.....how ya feeling about Brook Lopez now? Remember the talk about how you wouldn't want your team to be mired in mediocrity (sp)???? I'd rather a rebuilding team go 20-62 two years in a row and get a couple top draft picks to build around..........as opposed to making the playoffs but losing in the first round and getting bottom of the round draft picks! Lopez isn't the building block of a championship contender, we just witnessed that. Nor his Humphries and his partying the night before the last game!

This is the stupidest shit I've ever read in my life.

The Grizzlies look awesome right now. I think they can definitely make it to the Finals, and they match up very interestingly with the Heat.

[drtydane]

I'd b happy if Miami doesn't win. At this point the celtics are you so I just wanna see James and wade cry.

[bran]

I'd b happy if Miami doesn't win. At this point the celtics are you so I just wanna see James and wade cry.

the nba and the refs are making sure the heat win it all.

[ronaldo9]

Want to see either K-Mart or Born Ready win it all. Guess their respected teams have as good a shot as any against Miami, considering New York and Indiana were the only two to win their regular season series against the Heat.

[Apollo]

Lighting.....how ya feeling about Brook Lopez now? Remember the talk about how you wouldn't want your team to be mired in mediocrity (sp)???? I'd rather a rebuilding team go 20-62 two years in a row and get a couple top draft picks to build around..........as opposed to making the playoffs but losing in the first round and getting bottom of the round draft picks! Lopez isn't the building block of a championship contender, we just witnessed that. Nor his Humphries and his partying the night before the last game!

This is the stupidest shit I've ever read in my life.

The Grizzlies look awesome right now. I think they can definitely make it to the Finals, and they match up very interestingly with the Heat.

" In the NBA, you either stick with mediocrity and sit in that 5-8 seed purgatory, or you take a chance (either through blowing up the roster and hoping for a super star in the draft or free agency, or you trade established players for that guy who will actually take you places)."........that is a quote from you in this topic. Sounds like you just described the Nets and the Magic.

One team went with a big name big money off season signing and has your boys Lopze and Humphries (and lost in the first round of the playoffs) and has little salary cap relief..........the other team blew it up, received a bunch of young talent and first round draft picks, and didn't kill their salary cap.

But sure. My post is the stupiest thing you've ever seen. Even though it was basically quoting you from earlier in this topic!!!!!!!!!!

And no Arnold, the refs aren't cheating to make sure the Heat win.

[Coma16]

Spurs cost me some coin last night. I can't believe they blow the lead in the 4th...

[Crazyman]

The Bucks interviewed Jerry Sloan. WTF? Why in the world would he be interested in taking over such a shitty team at his age?

[Forsaken]

[LightningBolt]

lol what the fuck

Anyways I love watching the Knicks lose. Fuck 'em. It'll be interesting to see who overpays for JR Smith this off-season.

[batman007]

The Pacers mean serious business. I want Lebron to win another ring. I do have a soft spot for the Pacers though! Reggie Miller!

[LightningBolt]

Pacers have looked great.

Anybody hear Charles Barkley call out the refs during the halftime show? That was pretty awesome.

[Forsaken]

Pulling for the Pacers. LeBron can suck it.

[ronaldo9]

Mookie Blaylock on life support after a head-on collision: http://www.ajc.com/news/news/former-nba-star-on-life-support-after-clayton-coun/nX8Kb/