Ernie Terrell Dies

[Len Cnut]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-chicago-boxer-and-muhammad-ali-opponent-ernie-terrell-dies-20141217-story.html

So long champ

'you just actin' just like an old Uncle Tom...another Floyd Patterson, I'm gonna punish you!'

Fuckssake Ali

[Iron MikeyJ]

@Lenny,

Have you ever watched Facing Ali? It's a great documentary that gives behind the scene stories from Cooper, Frazier, Foreman, Ellis, Terrell, Spinks, Norton, and Holmes. This made me think about it because Terrell used to sing this song about Ali, which really pissed Ali off, he sang it during the show as well.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Iron MikeyJ

[Len Cnut]

I have yeah, great documentary . I never miss nothing on Ali!

As an aside, for those who says Klitschkos height would've troubled Ali, Wlad and Ernie were the same height.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Lennie Godber

[Iron MikeyJ]

I have yeah, great documentary . I never miss nothing on Ali!

As an aside, for those who says Klitschkos height would've troubled Ali, Wlad and Ernie were the same height.

Ali would of had Wlad cryin' for his brothers help by the end of the third round. Not to bring the discussions from the other thread into this one, but you opened the door Len.

People talk about the lack of great fights Tyson had, but by comparision Tyson was fighting legends compared to Wlad. Now it's not his fault that the division sucks, I'll give him that, but by my count he has only faced one real fighter in his entire career; Hasim Rahman. Which he did beat him, but lets look at his losses...

On his way up the ranks he lost to Ross Puritty by TKO in the 11th. Who the fuck in Ross Puritty???? Then he got TKO'ed in the 2nd by Corrie Sanders, wow legend in the making there... Then he got TKO'ed in the 5th by Lamon Brewster. He did avenge that loss later on, but still.... Brewster is alright, but he's no top tier level fighter by no means. I guess what I'm saying is these are some pretty ugly losses here, and yet some folks want to rate him as an all time great??? Top 20 all time maybe, and thats being generious. At lease Vitali got in the ring against Lennox, he got his ass pounded, but at least he fought ONE real guy, Wlad on the other hand....

[Len Cnut]

Y'know what, i totally agree with you here but only because what you're doing is a comparitive thing. Within the framework of their era they deserve a bunch of credit which i don't think you give them but oh yeah, come on, compared to like the people Tyson fought? I'm sure a couple of em could've done Wlad and Vitali quite frankly.

If you wanna slag off Mikes competition then fuck me, i can't imagine what you must have to say for the Klitsches. I'm kinda with you on the Klitschs dislike, you can tell they are right arrogant bastards, not that there's anything wrong with that but they're kinda slimey about it. I've always had a lot of pro American prejudice when it comes to boxing quite frankly.

Not that i won't rate someone from elsewhere when a good one arrives, it's just the quality ain't there. At the risk of sounding like I'm racial stereotyping here, the proper style of fighting, that Black American style, it's SOOO highly evolved now, for those who can perfect it, it's just been built and built and refined and you can't just come out of your face and try and take that shit on your think you got the remedy just cuz you got the basics down, you'll get unraveled.

Americans and South Americans, these are the fighting kiddies. European style, though it has it's merits, it's much more textbook, much more rigid, you got those sideways-fist hooks whereas the American style is the upright fist, it's just so much more evolved and developed, when perfected it is something else.

It's why you have fighters like the Klitsches or say Gennady Golovkin or Ruslan Provodnikov, who are great fighters in their own right, all of em but you can see clearly their faults and mistakes and you know the day they come up against an elite level Shane Moseley or a Mayweather or even an Erislandy Lara type, they will get found out.

This all sounds very stereotypey and borderline racial but it's just a fact, it's just the way shit is. From elsewhere you tend to get people with raw natural skills...but they are just bought up a different way so its not the same thing. Like Nigel Benn from England, great raw fighter, great tools...but he just doesn't have that education, that American education. Same with a lot of fighters. And they get found out. I think what I'm talking about is pure boxing brains. Amir Khan is an example of someone with a good skill set and had he been born and raised in America he'd be something else but he wasn't so you have this guy with all the skills but without the shit upstairs to apply it correctly or the proper grounding.

It's amazing how much you see European fighters fuck up on the basics.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Lennie Godber

[Iron MikeyJ]

I hear ya man, and I agree with you. I guess we just grew up in a different era. Just like you, I grew up hearing stories of Rocky, Ali, and Foreman from parents and grandparents. I also have a friend who lived in a house that Joe Louis used to own and train in. Then we had our guy,(Iron Mike) and boy did we love him, faults and all. Being the world champ, of any division really meant something. Boxing conversations used to be on the level of (American) football, baseball, or any other sport. But the times have changed. So I can't deny that I'm jaded about where the sport has gone, I yearn for the days of old, not just becasue of the names, but for the sport itself. So I hear what your saying, which I don't blame the Klitchkos for that. But everything used to mean that much more. Even if Wlad breaks Louis's record, it won't mean as much as when Louis set it, it just won't. Blame America for that if you want, but really boxing did it to itself. Like we said before, its an easy fix, but when will someone come along and do it????

[Apollo]

LOL. You guys idolize Mike Tyson, who BEAT his wife, who was convicted of rape, who bit a man's ear off in the ring, who would talk about raping and eating another man's child, who completely pissed away the chance to actually be one of the 5 best heavyweights of all time.........but the Klitschko brothers are "slimly"?????? You should look into their life/careers outside of boxing and see what they are doing. One of them has their PHD, one of them is heavily involved in politics and did or was going to run for president of his country, they both are well known for being huge humanitarians especially in charities involving children and have donated/raised tens of millions of dollars for children charities.

So yea, I can see how you'd worship Mike and think those brothers were Slimly.

One of the brothers donated his Olympic gold medal (yea, they kicked ass as amateurs as well) for a children's charity. It sold for a cool million dollars.

For a children's charity. But Mike was cool in The Hangover. And Robin, at 5-foot-5 and 110 pounds, probably deserve the beatings Mike gave her.

Look, I'm not a Brothers worshipper at all. I just think it's funny how you guys downgrade everything they do so much, while overlooking all the obvious faults of Tyson's career and using double-standards to compare the fighters. You guys are like the Axl and Slash nutters on here. Your personal love of the guy has reduced your ability to judge his career and other careers rationally. Which is odd, as you both appear to know a TON about boxing. More than I do.

Nobody said the brothers would beat Ali.

Nobody said they were the GOAT. Heck, most experts put them outside the top 10 - or maybe 9th or 10th.

But to downgrade them as chumps because of "lack of competition" and they are "slimly" and because they aren't as popular to the current generation as Tyson is? That's just silly. And deep down I think you both know it. Wlad is beating the "best" of his division for the last decade. You can't blame him for who is fighting in his era. Especially if you are then going to ignore the chumps Tyson fought and worship him for beating BoneCrusher Smith - who lost 17 fights. Let's bring up who Klitsk lost to, but ignore all the guys that beat Tyson. Buster Douglas? Are we glossing over his losses?

People can love whomever they want. I've got no problem with that.

But if you are going to compare careers - at least do so with equal measure and not use double-standards.

IMO, during their peak or prime five years - Tyson beats either brother 9 out of 10 fights.

But during the other 67% of their career - like age 30-38.......no contest. After the age of 30, Tyson was 5-5. After the age of 30, Klits is 20-0.

There is a reason that most boxing experts and historians don't list Tyson in their top 10. But maybe you guys know something they don't.

[Len Cnut]

LOL. You guys idolize Mike Tyson, who BEAT his wife, who was convicted of rape, who bit a man's ear off in the ring, who would talk about raping and eating another man's child, who completely pissed away the chance to actually be one of the 5 best heavyweights of all time.........but the Klitschko brothers are "slimly"?????? You should look into their life/careers outside of boxing and see what they are doing. One of them has their PHD, one of them is heavily involved in politics and did or was going to run for president of his country, they both are well known for being huge humanitarians especially in charities involving children and have donated/raised tens of millions of dollars for children charities.

I never said Mike was a boy scout but whatever else you can say about Mike, Mike was pretty honest, in a brutal sort of way. I know all about their sports science degree and Ukrainian politics and charities etc, my comment about slimey is one I've held back from expressing throughout discussions and i only said it to Mike (420, our Mike ) because I got the feeling he'd understand. A few things about them, very minor just gave me a feeling about them, a discomforting sort of feeling. It's one thing when you have someone like Tyson whoose a wrong un and he just wears it on his sleeve but with the Klitschko's I just...i dunno man, i get this feeling, like when you walk into a bar and just make flash judgements based on the manner people have about them, it's certainly not grounds for a death sentence and i was looking for a pound for pound morality comparison between them and Mike cuz we all know how that'd work out but it just is what it is. If i was to outline the things, they're so petty but...I dunno, you just get impressions off people, a feeling and I get a bit of one from them.

Like for instance i'm watching this interview and this guy writes in and the presenters reading this letter to Wlad and the guy in the letter is like you're such a credit to your country and i really got a lot of respect for you and...y'know, etc etc and Wlad just goes 'uh, thank you, usually i get those kinds of compliments from women, wow, this is strange' or something like that and the interviewers just looking at him like 'what?!?!'.

And then that big brawl at the press conference after the Dereck Chisora fight, afterwards they came out like 'this is a disgrace to boxing and it's a slur on boxing and they should be punished' etc etc and when you watch the video of that shit they're like laughing and egging them on and like....see none of these are offences that are anything like what someone like Mike did but at the same time for these two brothers that present this holier than thou image, it's this kinda little off the cuff stuff where you build something of an impression on, because lets face it all that well rehearsed interview shit is just that, rehearsed.

Now again, i'm hammering this home cuz i don't wannabe misunderstood, none of that shit is anything like a hanging offence, it's just personal observations that i've used to build a personal impression, probably the kind best kept to yourself until such time as they prove you right but like I say, i was talking to our Mike and i just felt like the guys on the same page as me so i put it out there.

Another instance is where (actually i found this one kinda funny ) where they approached Sascha Baron Cohen at some Luncheon gala fuckin' rich folks dinner thing, i dunno what you call em and he does Borat from Khazakstan and they're from there and they saw him and he was with his wife and Wlad kinda goes up and start intimidating him like I'm from Khazakstan and i don't like what you did and blah blah blah and like, he was basically shitting him up in front of his wife, to the point i think where they up and left. Now alright, thats usually within the Len sphere of highly humourous and it is really but at the same time its just...one of a whole bunch of strokes that just paints a picture of them to me where it's like, OK, thats the media image over there and the truth is perhaps a little left of that.

Again, not hanging offences but...y'know, these are the little things that come together to build an overall impression, I'm not trying to build a comparison between Mike Tyson. None of those criticisms are gonna bear scrutiny but they're not supposed to, they're just personal gut feelings you get.

One of the brothers donated his Olympic gold medal (yea, they kicked ass as amateurs as well) for a children's charity. It sold for a cool million dollars.

For a children's charity. But Mike was cool in The Hangover. And Robin, at 5-foot-5 and 110 pounds, probably deserve the beatings Mike gave her.

Come on man, i didn't suggest nothing like that!

Look, I'm not a Brothers worshipper at all. I just think it's funny how you guys downgrade everything they do so much, while overlooking all the obvious faults of Tyson's career and using double-standards to compare the fighters. You guys are like the Axl and Slash nutters on here. Your personal love of the guy has reduced your ability to judge his career and other careers rationally. Which is odd, as you both appear to know a TON about boxing. More than I do.

But i've said time and time again that they deserve respect for what they've done in their era.

Nobody said the brothers would beat Ali.

When i said what i said up there about the brothers possibly giving Ali trouble because of their height isn't because someone on here said it, it's just something you hear when those comparisons are made, it's sometimes said that their height'd trouble someone like Ali so i was just making a distinction based on that, not in response to anything someone on this forum said.

But to downgrade them as chumps because of "lack of competition" and they are "slimly" and because they aren't as popular to the current generation as Tyson is? That's just silly. And deep down I think you both know it. Wlad is beating the "best" of his division for the last decade. You can't blame him for who is fighting in his era.

I never called them chumps but the lack of competition thing, seriously, thats not accurate? And i don't give a shit about what the current generation finds popular, i wouldn't've dedicated the hundreds of hours of my life I've probably spend watching Mikes shit because of some generation, i just rate the guy, very highly and i like him and he was the guy in my era, it just is what it is.

No, you can't BLAME him for who he's fighting in his career but at the same time you can't give him the same credit as people that fought better folks. It's like Mayweather, totally dominant...but i don't rate him like i rate Ray Leonard or Ray Robinson or even a Tommy Hearns. Now Mayweather fans say it ain't his fault the competition is poor, yeah but it ain't mine either, what do you want me to do, what are you requesting here, that i rate him higher because he didn't have no choice, well thats kinda similar to bigging up Mike where its not deserved surely? Thats life, tough break, you never got to prove yourself cuz you were in a crappy era...but that ain't reason enough for me to put you up there with Joe Louis etc etc.

And y'know, while we're about it, while the Klistches are fighting who they're fighting, a lot of them are plodders and there are some good contenders out there, people like Deontay Wilder, Tyson Fury (ok, not exactly Mr Skill but fuck me, he is undefeated) and they ain't getting a lot of play from the Klitsches.

You can't blame him for who is fighting in his era. Especially if you are then going to ignore the chumps Tyson fought and worship him for beating BoneCrusher Smith - who lost 17 fights. Let's bring up who Klitsk lost to, but ignore all the guys that beat Tyson. Buster Douglas? Are we glossing over his losses?

Answer me this, hand on heart now. Who fought the better guys? Honestly now. Tyson weren't fighting Buster Douglas because he was some kinda big end of the road for him, Buster was a fill in time fight while they were lining up Evander Holyfield, Mike was busying in his four years y'know, he truly was a reigning champion, everybody got a shot at Mike, there's a difference between purposely picking the shit ones from a bunch and then doing what Tyson did, which was fight everybody. But answer the question though, who fought the better guys, one word answer and then you can any 'buts' and i'll hear em out.

IMO, during their peak or prime five years - Tyson beats either brother 9 out of 10 fights.

But during the other 67% of their career - like age 30-38.......no contest. After the age of 30, Tyson was 5-5. After the age of 30, Klits is 20-0.

To which my response would be that this is the first era, this era we're living right now where fighters in their late 30s were considered prime still. And thats just a fact, thats never been a thing in boxing til now and the reason that shit exists is because the competition is SO poor. It's SO poor that elite fighters can comfortably trade off their standard skill set into their late 30s because the competition is so shit. And this is the first era for that shit really. So my theory ties together overall. Why do you think Mayweather still makes it? Cuz he's not fighting anyone of his level cuz there's so few out there. The reason someone like B Hop is fighting still in his late 40s ain't cuz he's an Alien, it's cuz he's wily, he's experienced, he was a one time elite, he looks after himself meticulously AND...the competition ain't all that. Simple as that.

But all that aside, as a direct comparison, of course, there's no denying your point that, for whatever reason, Tysons record post 30 ain't all that...at all.

There is a reason that most boxing experts and historians don't list Tyson in their top 10. But maybe you guys know something they don't.

Neither do i though, and you know this, we were talking about it in the other thread, I'm not some blind lover of Mike...or anyone. (except Muhammad Ali but even the blind can see Ali was the fuckin' man )

Edited December 18, 2014 by Lennie Godber

[Iron MikeyJ]

Come on Apollo, if you honestly believe that either brother fought better guys than Mike did, well.... I guess you are a little delusional. This is the weakest era in heavyweight history, period. It just is what iti is. I don't blame the brothers for that no, but I can't just ignore it. Would Ali be considered the GOAT if his tuffest opponent was against Chuck Wepner? No.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Iron MikeyJ

[DieselDaisy]

Chuck Wepner would probably beat the Klitschkos. That is how poor this division is.