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Kittiara

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Kittiara last won the day on July 6

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About Kittiara

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  • Birthday March 18

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  1. Better song: Coma or Locomotive

    Coma for me. I love that it's a regular in the set list now. It's the one song I really, really want to experience live. Love the lyrics, love the stucture, love the guitars. The Houston 2016 version was especially great. I do like Locomotive, though, but yeah, Coma all the way for me.
  2. Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

    Aye, though Michelle said that wasn't the case in 1985. I'm in the UK, so I haven't a clue if that route was open to the police in California at that point. There is much that is unclear at the moment. I'm trying to wrap my head around it but, admittedly, I haven't been successful. I think that what we can say, from Raz Cue's story along with Michelle's, is that her mom's boyfriend was a musician who was recording in a studio next to GN'R's. That this led to Michelle being around the band for what seems like a good while. I can imagine that this would have seemed super cool to a 15-year-old girl. The adults should have stopped it, really, because by all accounts it wasn't a good place to be for a teenager. Then Raz mentions that his brother told him that Axl had been physically intimate with Michelle. Regardless of anything else, with Axl being an adult and Michelle being 15, if that happened that wasn't good. And I think that most people agree that at one point or another a 15-year-old was indeed sent out into the streets without her clothes. It feels kind of icky to even discuss all this, and I normally stay well clear of being an armchair detective. I also feel conflicted because with Raz Cue writing about Michelle, and us discussing her, I feel that she has the right to share her version of events and I don't want to dismiss them just because I happen to be a fan of the band. But I also don't want to condemn Axl on the basis of this, because I believe in the presumption of innocence rather than being a part of the pitchfork brigade. I'd like to know the truth about this and other things I have read in this thread, like the story about the woman who worked for Penthouse, but due to the nature of these cases I know that that's difficult, if not impossible. It often does come down to he-said, she-said, especially after this amount of time. Which places me, as a fan, in a position of not knowing if my support for the band is reasonable - if these things are true, I don't think I can support them any longer, however much I love the music. But it isn't about me. I guess all we can do is wait and see.
  3. Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

    Thank you, Blackstar. It's all so messy, isn't it? I mean, these quotes combined with the others could have all been related to one incident, or two, or there could have been several incidents where the guys got into a mess with women for one reason or another. Like, these quotes appear to possibly be linked to the bungalow incident, but then again they might not be because of the mention of a situation with a woman and her mother. So, that seems like a different scenario than the Dio Boots one, and according to Raz Cue that was a different situation again to what happened to Michelle, and I don't even know anymore!
  4. Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

    Aye true. Just saw that it was the bungalow incident that led to a charge involving both Axl and Slash.
  5. Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

    Just scrolling through the thread now and @SoulMonster posted a quote from Slash about the bungalow incident where it does appear that he and Axl were charged over that one, but those charges were indeed dropped. Then there was the Dio Boots case, where the police was brought into it but it didn't really go anywhere, rightfully so from what I can make out. Could it be that in Michelle's case her mother contacted the police, but as Michelle decided to not press charges, no charges were indeed brought? That'd make the bungalow incident the one that people know about. Though, in the same post by SoulMonster, Axl refers to an "old girlfriend trying to get back at us" which, if that refers to Michelle, would be problematic because regardless of anything else, her being 15 at the time, and him being an adult, and the age of consent being 18... But, obviously, we can't know who he was referring to.
  6. Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

    I will readily admit that I am a lot less clued up about the history of Guns N' Roses than most people on this forum, and I may be getting things confused. There's a lot in this thread that I was unaware of before and there are several incidents with women mentioned - like the bungalow one as well. So, I don't know what's what anymore. What I do know is that I'm pretty shocked at some of the stuff I've read. Which probably sounds incredibly naive for a GN'R fan, but until I became a member here I was just one of those fans who just listened to the songs and attended the occasional concert. This forum has been an education, but obviously there's a lot I don't know still. And on occasions like this I really understand the saying that ignorance is bliss, because if even half this shit is true I don't know what kinda band I've been following, much as I love a lot of the music!
  7. Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

    From what I understand from the second Raz Cue piece, that was another incident with another girl? The "Dio boots" one?
  8. Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

    I've been following this discussion and I can understand why Michelle chose to post here. As part of this discussion people are discussing her, after all, so it's only natural that she wishes to share her story. It can't be easy seeing yourself discussed in books that you had no input in, and now seeing your name and your past discussed by complete strangers on message forums. I think if that were me, about any aspect of my life, I'd probably want to let my voice be heard, too. Yeah, it's a risk, because people can be unpleasant, especially on the Internet, but I think that as we're all adults here, we can surely discuss this in a polite manner. We're not that horrible a lot on this board, after all.
  9. Okay, so I have watched the documentary as well as the Oprah interview. Earlier in this thread I said that I had questions. I still do. As others have said, the documentary doesn't offer any actual evidence of sexual abuse. That would have been impossible. It did, however, lead me to draw some conclusions: - The documentary showed video footage, pictures, recordings etc of just how close Michael Jackson was to these boys. Some of it was pretty creepy, like that interview on the plane, and those faxes, and one of those answer machine messages. The relationship he had with the boys seemed very... intense. Overwhelming. It's easy to see how he made them feel special, and loved, and then he replaced them with the next boy, and the hurt that caused is easily understood. Regardless of whether or not any sexual abuse took place, I would class that as emotional abuse. - I still stand firm that regardless of whether or not any sexual abuse took place, it was wrong of Jackson to share a bedroom, let alone a bed, with unrelated children. - The parents, and especially the mothers, came across terribly in the documentary. Their reputation is in pieces forever. I am not sure why they would participate in the documentary if the allegations aren't true. No amount of money would surely make up for being seen as a terrible person, globally, for the rest of your life... - Like @downzy it was the second half of part 2 that I found the most convincing. If there isn't something to these allegations then the brother and sister especially deserve an Oscar. - The same goes for James Safechuck towards the end of the Oprah interview. If he isn't being genuine the guy deserves some kind of acting award. I can't, of course, be 100 percent certain that these guys are telling the truth. On balance, however, I find it difficult to believe they and their families could lie like that. I also find it difficult to understand why they would. They didn't seek to make this documentary. In the Oprah interview, the producer says he was the one who approached them. They, nor their families, received any monetary reward for it. The doors to any monetary reward are pretty much closed. They've made themselves hate figures in the eyes of many, and the same goes for their families and especially their mothers. Even if they are liars, though, as I mentioned above, it is clear that Jackson wasn't a nice person. As someone who was once a fan, that's not pleasant to admit, but enough evidence was presented for me to conclude that much...
  10. I haven't yet watched this documentary and I am not sure that I want to. However, I did read about it because, as I said in another thread, I read some of the trial transcripts due to a conversation on another forum and I was left with some questions. Questions that will no doubt never be answered. I have questions about these accusers as well. It does seem questionable that one of them claimed at that trial that Michael Jackson had never touched him inappropriately and now he claims the opposite. I am pretty sure that I read, though, that neither of the men were paid to be a part of this documentary. Why, then, are they exposing themselves to what will no doubt amount to a lot of vitriol? I just don't know. I do, however, agree with Len that regardless of his innocence regarding the actions he was accused of, there was some dodgy stuff going on at Neverland. I, too, stated in the other thread that if it were Bob the plumber from down the road sharing a bedroom with unrelated children I doubt anyone would rush to excuse this behaviour. And, indeed, there was the dodgy "art" book. And who leaves porn magazines lying around when there are kids staying over? I know people say Michael Jackson was an innocent, childlike soul but is that because that was just the image he meant to project, or something we're projecting onto him? Or is it the truth? And how far does that go? As said, many questions...
  11. The morality of the artist

    This is something that I have pondered as well on occasion, and especially over the last year. When I was a kid, I loved Michael Jackson's music. I guess he was the first artist who I was a fan of. I had the opportunity to meet him once, and I remember him being really nice. A bit shy. When the accusations emerged, I didn't believe them. I didn't want to believe them. Last year, due to a discussion on another forum, I ended up reading some of the trial transcripts and whilst he was found to be not guilty, there was some questionable stuff going on. I am no longer a kid and I see no justification for having unrelated children sleeping in one's bedroom. If it weren't Michael Jackson, but Bob, the plumber down the road, would anyone make excuses for that? Yet, I do like some of his music. It's music I grew up with. So, like others say in this thread, where do you draw the line? I was never into the Lostprophets but I do feel that it would be difficult for me to listen to an artist who was found guilty of a crime of that nature. I can't completely separate the art from the artist, because to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the piece, there will always be something of the artist that shines through in the art. I love to write and I know that even if I write a fantasy story, for example, there's something of me in there. It's inevitable. What we create stems from who we are - our feelings, our thoughts, our emotions, our personalities. I haven't known about Axl's alleged past for that long, despite having loved GN'R's music since '87. I was the kind of person who listened to the music and attended the occasional concert, and that's about it. Sure, I sometimes read music magazines aimed at teenagers but they were the kind where you mainly learned about an artist's favourite colour and food, not the serious kind of stuff. It's only through this forum that I have become more informed. And if it's true that Axl did those things then that's not something I can condone and that does somewhat diminish my enjoyment of his art. It also makes those t-shirts he wears at times, like the one with the woman in the trash can, all the more distasteful. And yeah, it's a cognitive dissonance thing. I can tell myself that with some artists whose music I love, that they may have done some awful things but they haven't been found guilty so we can't know for sure, but that if they had I would stop listening. Would I really? I think what that uncertainty says about me is not something I like.
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