THE OFFICIAL PROPER FOOTBALL THREAD 2020/21

[DieselDaisy]

8 minutes ago, wasted said:

It’s not complicated. If you win NL you qualify for the playoffs of the real qualifiers for the Euros. 

Not quite (and this is without even analysing closely),

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Four nations, one from each League, will also qualify for the UEFA Euro 2020 finals.

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There will be play-offs for each of Leagues A, B, C and D in March 2020. Each group winner earns a spot in the semi-finals. If the group winner is already one of the twenty qualified teams, rankings will be used to give the play-off spot to another team of that league. If fewer than four teams in the entire league remain unqualified, play-off spots for that league are given to teams of the next lower league. This determines the four remaining qualifying spots for the European Championship (out of 24 total).[9][10][11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Nations_League

 

[DieselDaisy]

This format makes even less sense when you discover that the finals (contested between four winners of League A over five days in Portugal, June 2019) has absolutely no impact on qualification for Euros 2020, and that these same four teams from league A will contest play-offs (March 2020) for a berth!

From my understanding, the English, the Dutch, Swiss and Portuguese will contest the Nations League finals, then all play each other again nearly a year later to try and get into the Euros (if not already qualified)! All four leagues will do this for the remaining four Euro berths, but it is completely separate from the Nations League finals competition.

You could also arrive at the absurd scenario of a team winning the Nations League and not qualifying for the Euros!

Now I am going to hit the bottle.

PS

Incidentally, I have long thought that the winner from the continental competitions (Euros, Copa America, etc.) should get automatic qualification for the World Cup. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by DieselDaisy

[wasted]

24 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Not quite (and this is without even analysing closely),

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Nations_League

 

When it says Finals it’s refering to a pre Euros playoffs https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_UEFA_Nations_League_Finals

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, wasted said:

When it says Finals it’s refering to a pre Euros playoffs https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_UEFA_Nations_League_Finals

The Finals have nothing to do with qualification.

[wasted]

6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

This format makes even less sense when you discover that the finals (contested between four winners of League A over five days in Portugal, June 2019) has absolutely no impact on qualification for Euros 2020, and that these same four teams from league A will contest play-offs (March 2020) for a berth!

From my understanding, the English, the Dutch, Swiss and Portuguese will contest the Nations League finals, then all play each other again nearly a year later to try and get into the Euros (if not already qualified)! All four leagues will do this for the remaining four Euro berths, but it is completely separate from the Nations League finals competition.

You could also arrive at the absurd scenario of a team winning the Nations League and not qualifying for the Euros!

Now I am going to hit the bottle.

Yes, I think this is what I was saying. 

England can’t rely on winning NL bevause you only get a place in Euros playoff qualifiers. So if they lose league qualifiers and end up in playoffs and lose they are still out. 

[wasted]

6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

The Finals have nothing to do with qualification.

No but that sentence misleads you to think that it does. 

Qualification comes from wimners of leagues A,B,C,D going into Euro playoffs. Only winner of League A aka The Finals goes into playoffs. 

Maybe. 

[wasted]

You have to go to Euro 2020 qualification page:

With the creation of the UEFA Nations League starting in 2018,^{[25][24][26][27]} the 2018–19 UEFA Nations League is to be linked with UEFA Euro qualifying, providing teams another chance to qualify for Euro 2020. Four teams from each division which have not already qualified for the Euro finals are to compete in the play-offs for each division, to be played in March 2020. The winners of the play-offs for each division, to be decided by two "one-off" semi-finals (the best-ranked team vs. the fourth-best-ranked team, and the second-best-ranked team vs. the third-best-ranked team, played at home of higher ranked teams) and one "one-off" final (with the venue drawn in advance between the two semi-finals winners), are scheduled to join the 20 teams which have already qualified for the Euro finals.^[27]

[DieselDaisy]

Essentially the format is thus,

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- 4 Leagues (A-D, decided by ranking) divided (presumably by lottery) into four groups (1-4).

Nations League Group stages (Sept-Nov 2018): four teams in each group play each other home/away to decide group winner.

Euro 2020 Qualifiers (March - November 2019) : Conventional group stages providing 20/24 teams for Euros. 

Nations League Finals (June 2019): Four group winners from League A contest a mini knock-out competition in host country. This has nothing to do with the Euros.

Euro Playoffs (March 2020): Each League's four group winners, 16 teams in total, will then contest the play-offs for four remaining Euro berths.

Euro 2020 June - July 2020.

- There are various methods to decide if a team wins NL group but has already qualified for Euros (essentially next best ranked team contests play-offs) and other minutiae.

 

I have just realised that the sixteen Euro play-off teams will be re-drawn which makes the format marginally less silly. I still think the Nations League Final should be connected with Euro qualification.

Edited November 20, 2018 by DieselDaisy

[wasted]

7 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Essentially the format is thus,

I have just realised that the sixteen Euro teams will be re-drawn which makes the format marginally less silly. Still think the Nations League Final should be connected with Euro qualification somehow.

I think the League A winners win the NL and qualify for Euro play offs. 

Leagues B, C, D also have similar mini finals. And winner of each goes into Euro play offs.

[DieselDaisy]

14 minutes ago, wasted said:

I think the League A winners win the NL and qualify for Euro play offs. 

Leagues B, C, D also have similar mini finals. And winner of each goes into Euro play offs.

Nope.

All 16 are essentially stuck in a pot again and redrawn for play-offs. The NL Finals have bugger all to do with Euro qualification. 

In all probability the four League A/NL Finalists will already have qualified for the Euros by the conventional route (of topping their Euro Qualifier group stage) and their Euro play-off spots will be decided thus,

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If a group winner has already qualified through the conventional qualifying group stage, they will be replaced by the next best-ranked team in the same league. However, if there are not enough teams in the same league, then the spot will go to the next best team in the overall ranking.

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by DieselDaisy

[wasted]

Play-offs

Following the qualifying group stage, the qualifying play-offs will take place in March 2020 to determine the remaining 4 teams for the finals tournament. Unlike previous editions, the participants of the play-offs will not be decided based on results from the qualifying group stage. Instead, 16 teams will be selected based on their performance in the 2018–19 UEFA Nations League. These teams will be divided into four paths, each containing four teams, with one team from each path qualifying for the final tournament. Each league will have its own play-off path if at least four teams are available. The Nations League group winners will automatically qualify for the play-off path of their league. If a group winner has already qualified through the conventional qualifying group stage, they will be replaced by the next best-ranked team in the same league. However, if there are not enough teams in the same league, then the spot will go to the next best team in the overall ranking. However, group winners cannot face teams from a higher league.[1]

Each play-off path will feature two single-leg semi-finals, and one single-leg final. The best-ranked team will host the fourth-ranked team, and the second-ranked team will host the third-ranked team. The host of the final will be decided by a draw, with semi-final winner 1 or 2 hosting the final. The four play-off path winners will join the 20 teams which have already qualified for UEFA Euro 2020.[9]

Edited November 20, 2018 by wasted

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, wasted said:

ay-offsEdit

Following the qualifying group stage, the qualifying play-offs will take place in March 2020 to determine the remaining 4 teams for the finals tournament. Unlike previous editions, the participants of the play-offs will not be decided based on results from the qualifying group stage. Instead, 16 teams will be selected based on their performance in the 2018–19 UEFA Nations League. These teams will be divided into four paths, each containing four teams, with one team from each path qualifying for the final tournament. Each league will have its own play-off path if at least four teams are available. The Nations League group winners will automatically qualify for the play-off path of their league. If a group winner has already qualified through the conventional qualifying group stage, they will be replaced by the next best-ranked team in the same league. However, if there are not enough teams in the same league, then the spot will go to the next best team in the overall ranking. However, group winners cannot face teams from a higher league.[1]

Each play-off path will feature two single-leg semi-finals, and one single-leg final. The best-ranked team will host the fourth-ranked team, and the second-ranked team will host the third-ranked team. The host of the final will be decided by a draw, with semi-final winner 1 or 2 hosting the final. The four play-off path winners will join the 20 teams which have already qualified for UEFA Euro 2020.[9]

Yes, and all of this is separate from the National League Finals which are played out in June 2019 in Portugal. To reiterate,

Quote

 

Nations League Finals (June 2019): Four group winners from League A contest a mini knock-out competition in host country. This has nothing to do with the Euros.

Euro Playoffs (March 2020): Each League's four group winners, 16 teams in total, will then contest the play-offs for four remaining Euro berths.

 

As I said, in all likelihood the Finalists will have already qualified via topping their Euro qualifying groups (that will be all done and dusted by November 2019), thus not been required to contest the play-offs.

[wasted]

20 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Nope.

All 16 are essentially stuck in a pot again and redrawn for play-offs. The NL Finals have bugger all to do with Euro qualification. 

In all probability the four League A/NL Finalists will already have qualified for the Euros by the conventional route (of topping their Euro Qualifier group stage) and their Euro play-off spots will be decided thus,

 

So they will first have play offs of League A, B. C, D. That then go into Euro playoffs. 

But there’s also a NL finals which is winners of groups of League A in mini knock out tournament. But not a qualification route. So you could win NL and still fail to qualify. England we have our destiny. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by wasted

[wasted]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

Yes, and all of this is separate from the National League Finals which are played out in June 2019 in Portugal. To reiterate,

As I said, in all likelihood the Finalists will have already qualified via topping their Euro qualifying groups (that will be all done and dusted by November 2019), thus not been required to contest the play-offs.

That’s what I was saying, they go into the play offs not directly qualify for Euros. So they still have to qualify in normal way or they are leaving it to these weird playoffs. 

I didn’t realise that winning the NL final was seperate to winning the League A playoffs for place in Euro qualifiers. 

In terms of qualification you can only qualify for playoffs to qualify for Euros through the NL. 

It’s strange that the NL finals are not between winners of Leagues A, B, C, D. 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, wasted said:

So they will first have play offs of League A, B. C, D. That then go into Euro playoffs. 

But there’s also a NL finals which is winners of groups of League A in mini knock out tournament. 

Not quite but you're getting there. The Nations League groups will produce 16 group winners. If they haven't already qualified for the Euros they'll all be chucked into a pot and re-drawn for the Euro play-offs. There are four remaining Euro berths up for grabs.

The Nation League Finals is a separate thing involving the four League A group winners - try and view it as an isolated thing from the Euros. In all likelihood the four teams in this will have already qualified for Euros but football being football probably one of them might also get dragged into play-offs (for this to happen they'd have had to have played well in the Nations League but poorly in the Euro qualifier group stages basically).

[DieselDaisy]

13 minutes ago, wasted said:

That’s what I was saying, they go into the play offs not directly qualify for Euros. So they still have to qualify in normal way or they are leaving it to these weird playoffs. 

I didn’t realise that winning the NL final was seperate to winning the League A playoffs for place in Euro qualifiers. 

In terms of qualification you can only qualify for playoffs to qualify for Euros through the NL. 

It’s strange that the NL finals are not between winners of Leagues A, B, C, D. 

The leagues are all decided by FIFA ranking so it would produce a weird finals, Kosovo (who currently top D3) v Holland (topping A1) for instance, or Finland v Portugal. I also should mention that the only determined league winner is the winner of A who wins the entire thing by winning in the final. Nobody cares about who wins in Leagues B-D - there are no knock-outs or play-offs to decide this; each league simply produces four group winners. It is a promotion-relegation system (Germany have been relegated to League B). 

Edited November 20, 2018 by DieselDaisy

[wasted]

8 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Not quite but you're getting there. The Nations League groups will produce 16 group winners. If they haven't already qualified for the Euros they'll all be chucked into a pot and re-drawn for the Euro play-offs. There are four remaining Euro berths up for grabs.

The Nation League Finals is a separate thing involving the four League A group winners - try and view it as an isolated thing from the Euros. In all likelihood the four teams in this will have already qualified for Euros but football being football probably one of them might also get dragged into play-offs (for this to happen they'd have had to have played well in the Nations League but poorly in the Euro qualifier group stages basically).

I get the NL final thing. 

In terms of the NL playoffs sentences like

The Nations League group winners will automatically qualify for the play-off path of their league. 

confuse me.

That suggests the NL playoffs are by League, you’re saying they are just randomly split into 4 groups of 4. So England coukd face 3 League D teams in their NL playoffs. 

[wasted]

6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

The leagues are all decided by FIFA ranking so it would produce a weird finals, Kosovo (who currently top D3) v Holland (topping A1) for instance, or Finland v Portugal. I also should mention that the only determined league winner is the winner of A who wins the entire thing by winning in the final. Nobody cares about who wins in Leagues B-D - there are no knock-outs or play-offs to decide this; each league simply produces four group winners. It is a promotion-relegation system (Germany have been relegated to League B). 

So they all go into a pot for another round of playoffs. Are these the Euro qualifying playoffs? 

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, wasted said:

I get the NL final thing. 

In terms of the NL playoffs sentences like

The Nations League group winners will automatically qualify for the play-off path of their league. 

confuse me.

That suggests the NL playoffs are by League, you’re saying they are just randomly split into 4 groups of 4. So England coukd face 3 League D teams in their NL playoffs. 

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Path allocation[edit]
The 16 selected teams will then be allocated to paths of 4 teams. This is designed so that group winners will not have to compete with teams from a higher league in the play-off stage. Starting with League D and working up to League A:[5]

Form a path with four teams from the same league.
If there are more than four teams qualified in a given league, group winners are automatically allocated to that league's path. Then, draw which remaining teams will participate in the play-off path of that league.
Remaining teams are drawn into a path of a higher league.
Additional conditions may be applied, subject to approval, including seeding principles and the possibility of final tournament hosts having to be drawn into different paths. If there are no teams from League A (i.e. they have all qualified directly for UEFA Euro 2020), then this procedure will result in four teams from lower leagues being allocated to the path of League A.

 

It seems you'll probably get the winners of each league's division then (providing they haven't already qualified) playing each other.

 

[wasted]

15 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It seems you'll probably get the winners of each league's division then (providing they haven't already qualified) playing each other.

 

 

15 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It seems you'll probably get the winners of each league's division then (providing they haven't already qualified) playing each other.

 

It seems like group winners play other teams from their own league initially. This was my first impression. So there is a viable route for League D teams to make it to QF. Then they play Winner of other league D game. Then maybe semi against league C winner. Or they just win their league playoff group? 

The main thing is I thought the NL playoffs were to qualify for Euro playoffs. The NL playoffs are Euro qualifiers. I thought it was 4 league winners qualify for Euros. But you’re saying 4 winners of random groups?

Edited November 20, 2018 by wasted

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, wasted said:

 

It seems like group winners play other teams from their own league initially. This was my first impression. So there is a viable route for League D teams to make it to QF. Then they play Winner of other league D game. Then maybe semi against league C winner. 

Basically, probably either Macedonia, Kosovo, Belarus or Georgia (these are all current Group D leaders) are going to qualify for Euro 2020. They'll all contest playoffs and the winner will go through. I suppose it is a sort of ''league finals'' of sorts but nobody really cares about that except qualifying for the Euros. They'll all be promoted to League C for the next Nations League also.

 

[wasted]

13 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Basically, probably either Macedonia, Kosovo, Belarus or Georgia (these are all current Group D leaders) are going to qualify for Euro 2020. They'll all contest playoffs and the winner will go through. I suppose it is a sort of ''league finals'' of sorts but nobody really cares about that except qualifying for the Euros. They'll all be promoted to League C for the next Nations League also.

 

So Germany will qualify out of a weaker League B next time. Very wise. 

At least by March 2020 England can qualify to Euros. But first they have to win playoffs against League A group winners. This is what I was saying, after all this effort they could lose play off final and not qualify. But they are still in the NL finals. It would make more sense for the NL finals to be the League A euro qualifier. Once the real qualifiers start the NL playoffs might seem pointless. England won’t meed their place. In the end the 4 places will go to League C and D teams. 

So normal qualification is still the easiest way. NL qualification is a lottery. Lose on pens in final of NL playoffs that’s how England roll. Maybe win NL finals. Qualify by skin of teeth out of qualifier group. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by wasted

[DieselDaisy]

15 minutes ago, wasted said:

So Germany will qualify out of a weaker League B next time. Very wise. 

At least by March 2020 England can qualify to Euros. But first they have to win playoffs against League A group winners. This is what I was saying, after all this effort they could lose play off final and not qualify. But they are still in the NL finals. 

So normal qualification is still the easiest way. NL qualification is a lottery. Lose on pens in final of NL playoffs that’s how England roll. Maybe win NL finals. Qualify by skin of teeth out of qualifier group. 

Euro Qualifier Group stages (ending November 2019) will be finished before the play-offs (March 2020). There will already by 20/24 teams qualified before the play-offs commence basically. 

You basically have two chances to qualify.

A/ Either win your Euro group in the conventional manner

B/ Win your Nations League then win the play-offs

I have a feeling you won't see many of the biggies - your Germans, French, Italians, Spanish, Portugals, Englands (yes I know but England usually qualify for competitions remarkably comfortably) and Dutch - in the play-offs, as they will have all qualified conventionally. It will be a battleground for your middling to smaller nations, your Celts and Viking countries duking it out with your naff countries, Lichensteins and Macedonians.

They'll be somebody big who gets dragged into the thing though. There always is! Considering Italy and Holland were not in the world cup, there is always at least one-two ''biggies'' who are spectacularly rubbish. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by DieselDaisy

[wasted]

43 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Euro Qualifier Group stages (ending November 2019) will be finished before the play-offs (March 2020). There will already by 20/24 teams qualified before the play-offs commence basically. 

You basically have two chances to qualify.

A/ Either win your Euro group in the conventional manner

B/ Win your Nations League then win the play-offs

I have a feeling you won't see many of the biggies - your Germans, French, Italians, Spanish, Portugals, Englands (yes I know but England usually qualify for competitions remarkably comfortably) and Dutch - in the play-offs, as they will have all qualified conventionally. It will be a battleground for your middling to smaller nations, your Celts and Viking countries duking it out with your naff countries, Lichensteins and Macedonians.

They'll be somebody big who gets dragged into the thing though. There always is! Considering Italy and Holland were not in the world cup, there is always at least one-two ''biggies'' who are spectacularly rubbish. 

 Qualify the regular way, then if you don’t you have NL playoffs/Euro qualifier playoff as back up. But you can’t rely on the playoffs. It’s lottery of extra time/penos v orher league A teams and just failed qualify against League C and D teams. 

But winning your group isn’t a big deal because you still have to beat League A winners to qualify. If England don’t qualify normally they won’t beat the teams in the playoffs to go through. 

It could all pan out well. But if England fail qualification then lose playoffs, they could win NL finals a few weeks before Euros. 

The main thing is NL playoffs are moot because normal qualification is pretty easy. It would be much better to let B, C, D teams into NL Finals and have wild card winner going into Euros. 

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by wasted

[wasted]

3 hours ago, wasted said:

It’s not complicated. If you win NL you qualify for the playoffs of the real qualifiers for the Euros. 

It was actually less complicated.

The NL playoffs are the Euro qualifier playoffs.