ironmt

GNR is bigger than van halen so they don't open for them.They are as big as every rock act of today.we'll see van halen's new record, it will not sell as many as chinese democracy.Cd has sold more than 3 million copies worldwide.Van halen's new album???....I don't think ıt'll sell even 2 million copies worldwide...

GnR Is nowhere near as big as Van Halen Is today. The 2007-2008 Van Halen tour ended up a massive success, with a total gross of more than $93 million and close to one million in attendance from 74 shows.(Comes to about 13,513 per show) You can pretty much expect the same for the 2012 tour. The 2011 Guns tour had a total gross of 11.2 million with an average attendance of 6,446 per show from 35 shows. Now I realize Van Halen had twice the amount of shows but even If they had the same amount, It wouldn't even have been close.

This. Guns N' Roses is my favorite band but Van Halen isn't far behind for me and I'd never deny they are far bigger than Guns currently is. The last tour shows it, and while the general reception to Tattoo as a first single has been mixed, it got millions of hits and downloads.

On topic, I think the theater tour is awesome. No need for a co-headlining tour, not just with Van Halen, but with anybody. Granted, if they announced a co-headlining tour, I'd be there!

I agree and I would be right there with you.

GNR is bigger than van halen so they don't open for them.They are as big as every rock act of today.we'll see van halen's new record, it will not sell as many as chinese democracy.Cd has sold more than 3 million copies worldwide.Van halen's new album???....I don't think ıt'll sell even 2 million copies worldwide...

GnR Is nowhere near as big as Van Halen Is today. The 2007-2008 Van Halen tour ended up a massive success, with a total gross of more than $93 million and close to one million in attendance from 74 shows.(Comes to about 13,513 per show) You can pretty much expect the same for the 2012 tour. The 2011 Guns tour had a total gross of 11.2 million with an average attendance of 6,446 per show from 35 shows. Now I realize Van Halen had twice the amount of shows but even If they had the same amount, It wouldn't even have been close.

Ok lets see here...

AC/DC Black Ice

Promoted to the point it was shoved down our throats

Metallica Death Magnetic

Decent promotion, TDTNC pushed hard as a single

Foo Fighters Wasting Light

Already has two singles over played on main stream radio

Van Halen A Different Kind Of Truth

If I hear Tattoo one more time i'll fuckin' stab the first person I see

Bruce Springsteen Wrecking Ball

I love the new single "We Take Care of Our Own" but 15 times a day on main stream radio? come the fuck on

My point is why was CD put on the back burner? The album IMO is 1000000 times better than all the albums I mentioned.

Did Axl piss off the man that much to deserve this shit?

There Is no conspiracy against Guns N Roses. Late starts, 14 Years between albums, no communication with the fan base and no promotion when the album was finally released, have greatly reduced this once great bands fan base significantly, and It shows In album and ticket sales. Where once they were the biggest band In the world, they are now a mid tier band. Its time to create a spark and watch the spark become a roaring blaze. They are off to a good START.

i hope they record during these months!

Rest and prepare for the Chinese Democracy Tour.

Well, I'm going to have Axl release CD2 this year but I'm trying to get the Guns camp to stop doing shitty one store deals like they did with Best Buy. I believe CD could have sold atleast 2 million more units if it would have been released not only to Best Buy, but to Walmart, Target, Hot Topic, and the rest. So this is my petition to have them mass release CD2 to all retail stores. If you would simply state your name in this thread, and sign this petition, I can get the ball rolling.

iftheworld

Truthfully, The Best Buy deal Is the only reason there Is even a debate as to when the next album will be released. The sales were so poor compared to the amount of money It cost to make the album that we might want to consider sending a thank you letter to Best Buy for taking such a huge risk and beating on CD. I dont think you will have to worry about any store making a Guns album an exclusive ever again, the next album(If there Is a next album) will most likely be available everywhere.

What's the fucking point about another CD tour? I just can't see it...

The point Is money, plain and simple. Anyone who has there hopes set on a new album release In 2012 Is going to be In for a huge let down. Hope for the best and expect the worst, thats all we can do at this point.

I personally think this makes no sense unless they are planning on releasing new music. They toured the world, built up some momentum, and now it's time to go for broke and release CD II.

You are correct In your thought process, but lets face It, this band rarely does anything that makes sense.

I think a lot of it comes down to the record company not supporting Axl and the new lineup.

I agree, but In a way, Axl has pretty much burnt his bridges with the record company. When It takes 14 years and 12-14 million dollars to make an album that you didn't promote or release a single official video for , than you can pretty much believe the record company Is going to be very hesitant to front him any money for a follow up release. I am not knocking him, I am thinking of this from a buisness(record companys) point of view. The only way I see a new release Is If they continue to tour and use that money to record a new album.

I personally think this makes no sense unless they are planning on releasing new music. They toured the world, built up some momentum, and now it's time to go for broke and release CD II.

You are correct In your thought process, but lets face It, this band rarely does anything that makes sense.

Not to be negative, but It means absolutley nothing In terms of a new album release.

Both eras are fine but I´m a bit nostalgic/old school since this era leaves nothing to our imagination,no magic, we get it all instantly, we don´t know how it feels to be counting the days for something because something happens and 3 minutes later it´s available in ineternet.

I don't get this. I don't this at all. If there is something that has been constant about GN'R is that nothing is immediate. Waiting is part of the game. Right now I am waiting for the next record, and before I did that I was waiting for CD. And whenever a release date is suggested I sure as hell don't expect it to happen instantly, I expect endless postponements to take place.

I'm sure your expectations will prove right.

i understand the topic starters point, it is so much easier to get our music and news about our favorite bands through the WWW. However at the same time I think it's killed the anticipation factor. it use to be when an album from an artist you really liked came out. You were first to the store to buy it on release day. Didn't matter what the weather was. You were at the store waiting in that line to get your hands on the album you desired. Nowadays it's all changed thanks to the WWW. Now people can just get there music with just one click. And most of the time they aren't paying for it. Personally I'd rather go to the store, buy the cd, and put it in the player. And as for the new band, well I'm gonna give my opinion on that cause I don't wanna cause an argument.

I agree with the whole Internet thing and there being no mystery or surprise(part of the fun of heading to the record store was not knowing what was on the album and being completley blown away, hearing November Rain or Estranged for the first time.) by the way you are allowed to express your opinion on the new band(not that I have to tell you that). It seems to me that the majority of us that were around when the band was In there prime(1988-1993), tend to lean towards the original band being better and the younger generation that wasn't around to see the original lineup tend to lean towards the new band. I guess thats just the way It goes.

Hi Ryan!

This is an interesting topic,I was into GNRs in 1989,and it was a different world,we got our information from magazines,and MTV,Which years ago actually gave a happy damn about music,Kurt Loader was a great news guy,and the VMAs were actually worth watching!

Been to countless concerts,we didn't have internet,we did get bootlegs,and releases from different countries,and yeah we illegally copied tapes,but we had to know someone that had purchased said tape.

I have vivid memories of several concerts,St.Louis 91 was insane,noblesville 91 we heard November rain,and I can remember all the lines of people lined up at midnight to purchase the Illusions.

The illusion tour started without the albums being released,so I heard some of the songs live the first time,its been a crazy ride but,and I got into some insane adventures,but I would do it over again in an instant.

Now we have instant music,MTV plays fucking reality shit,popular music is in the toilet,and the internet is a double-edged sword,magazines have either folded or are writing about dumpfuck groups like coldplay or nickleback,I don't give two shits about either of them.

The VMAs are unwatchable,they seem to only acknowledge the rap scene,and they fucking ignore real rock,I'm not racist and like some rap,but they could be more open to other genres of music IMO.

I won't attempt to list every gig I've attended,but been in 06,2010,and 2011,things have changed but I'm still a hardcore GNR devotee and have enjoyed every minute of this brilliant madness,My first ink was GNR related,its in plain view and still looks good 20-some years later.

Respect for alumni,especially Duff, appreciate the contributions of alumni,but a little disappointed with some of their choices and outcomes/current activities and issues over the years,that's my problem so I ain't gonna elaborate because it tends to upset a faction here,and ends up in a clusterfucked shitfest.

I'm loving the 2012 GNRs,and I love Chinese Democracy,still a gunner after all these years!

Very good assessment and pretty much spot on. I was one of those Idiots that showed up and stood In line, outside the record store at midnight for the release of the Illusion albums(no regrets) and as far as ink goes, I am In the same boat, decided It would be a good Idea to dedicate an arm for a Guns sleeve(still a work In progress, tattoos get pretty costly) and again no regrets. Both eras of the band are great, but there Is no mystery today, you can hear an entire album before you leave the house to go pick It up, and In some ways It takes away from the over all experience. With that said In alot of ways, the old days were better days.

Great response Iron,

I'm glad we are on the same page,I was in my early 20s in the late 80's,got my first Rose ink,have gotten several since then,I don't hide them,got them on both arms,and I never hide the fact I'm a Gunner!

Tats are addictive!

They sure are. It's good to be In the company of another true hardcore Gunner.

Hi Ryan!

This is an interesting topic,I was into GNRs in 1989,and it was a different world,we got our information from magazines,and MTV,Which years ago actually gave a happy damn about music,Kurt Loader was a great news guy,and the VMAs were actually worth watching!

Been to countless concerts,we didn't have internet,we did get bootlegs,and releases from different countries,and yeah we illegally copied tapes,but we had to know someone that had purchased said tape.

I have vivid memories of several concerts,St.Louis 91 was insane,noblesville 91 we heard November rain,and I can remember all the lines of people lined up at midnight to purchase the Illusions.

The illusion tour started without the albums being released,so I heard some of the songs live the first time,its been a crazy ride but,and I got into some insane adventures,but I would do it over again in an instant.

Now we have instant music,MTV plays fucking reality shit,popular music is in the toilet,and the internet is a double-edged sword,magazines have either folded or are writing about dumpfuck groups like coldplay or nickleback,I don't give two shits about either of them.

The VMAs are unwatchable,they seem to only acknowledge the rap scene,and they fucking ignore real rock,I'm not racist and like some rap,but they could be more open to other genres of music IMO.

I won't attempt to list every gig I've attended,but been in 06,2010,and 2011,things have changed but I'm still a hardcore GNR devotee and have enjoyed every minute of this brilliant madness,My first ink was GNR related,its in plain view and still looks good 20-some years later.

Respect for alumni,especially Duff, appreciate the contributions of alumni,but a little disappointed with some of their choices and outcomes/current activities and issues over the years,that's my problem so I ain't gonna elaborate because it tends to upset a faction here,and ends up in a clusterfucked shitfest.

I'm loving the 2012 GNRs,and I love Chinese Democracy,still a gunner after all these years!

Very good assessment and pretty much spot on. I was one of those Idiots that showed up and stood In line, outside the record store at midnight for the release of the Illusion albums(no regrets) and as far as ink goes, I am In the same boat, decided It would be a good Idea to dedicate an arm for a Guns sleeve(still a work In progress, tattoos get pretty costly) and again no regrets. Both eras of the band are great, but there Is no mystery today, you can hear an entire album before you leave the house to go pick It up, and In some ways It takes away from the over all experience. With that said In alot of ways, the old days were better days.

It's because most Americans are obese and if they get too excited they will tire themselves out.

That coming from someone who has posted almost 3000 times in five months, I would assume you don't get off your ass too often.

relax, he was obviously joking.

No need to joke about It because It's the truth. This Is the fattest country on the planet.

"My client may have been drinking Nighttrain on the night in question, but if you think he committed this crime then You're Crazy. It's So Easy to see why he told me that he felt the cops were 'Out ta Get Me.' My client opted to Move to the City from Down on the Farm in hopes that this would become his very own Paradise City. He does not lead a Reckless Life, as he still keeps in touch with Mama Kin. My client does not believe that Anything Goes. He is simply one of the Nice Boys who deserves Better.

"Don't Cry for my client, yet know that he has been left feeling Estranged and even Scraped by these legal proceedings. 14 Years probation would be So Fine in this case, as he is Sorry for his actions. Don't judge my client based on his attire of Black Leather and whatever Attitude you feels as though he may have. Is he a Prostitute? No. Did he hide money from the IRS? No. Did he attempt to escape the country by fleeing to Madagascar? No. If the World has any justice, you will honor my client's request of 'Set Me Free.' Um, we'd like to remove that last line from the record. Surely one of you jury members can relate to what I'm saying." - Attorney desperately going for a hung jury and staring at Axl throughout his closing argument.

Axl's response:

"Enough with these lawyers and their Double Talkin' Jive, they're just Killing Time the same way I did for 14 Years while making Chinese Democracy. Before we all turn into Dust N' Bones, let's Breakdown the facts of this case that lead to an almost Perfect Crime.

The victim, Michelle O'Mine - who, if I may add, was built like a Locomotive - had just become Estranged from her Rocker husband because even though he Used To Love Her, he suffered from the Shotgun Blues and the constant fighting between the two of them was like a Civil War in their own home.

So she left with her 2 year old toddler and decided to Move To The City, into an apartment owned by her friend Dexter Brownstone. The apartment was next to a house shared by three men. However they weren't Nice Boys, they were a bunch of Bad Apples named Andy Secher, Mick Wall and Bob Guccione Junior. Needless to say, Michelle felt like she was living Right Next Door To Hell. Every night the Sweet Child O' Mine had to be told by her Mother "Don't Cry", but the odds of the child sleeping quietly through an entire night were always One In A Million.

Then one day when Miss O'Mine was tending to The Garden, the defendant Mr. Secher stared at her and thought to himself "You Could Be Mine". He thought of how she would look so Pretty Tied Up in her garden with no clothes, how the November Rain would make her body look So Fine. He viewed her garden as the Garden of Eden, and to him she was Eve.

Mr. Secher could have waited for the perfect moment to make his move, but he had no Patience. So he immediately approached her, and when she noticed his shadow she became startled. At first she thought it was her landlord, as she said "Is that you Mr. Brownstone?"

Andy replied, "No, that is the Shadow of Your Love".

To which Miss O'Mine replied "You're Crazy".

Mr. Secher then responded, "My Michelle, here I am. Your Rocket Queen. It's So Easy to Think About You, seeing you outside my window every day".

Miss O'Mine tried to run away, but Mr. Secher hit her over the head with a case of Dr. Pepper and she dropped faster than panties backstage after Yesterdays GNR concert. (I could come up with a dozen more "faster than" analogies, but that would be like beating a Dead Horse.)

After lapsing into a Coma, Michelle O'Mine soon found herself Knocking On Heaven's Door which led her to Paradise City.

And if anybody has a problem with my version of this case, Don't Damn Me. Just Back Off Bitch, because you're in My World now.

Andy Secher is GUILTY!!"

Mother of god

You were both excellent. Great job.

Our concert crowds In the U.S. are beyond lame, not only do we just stand there(actually, the concerts I attended, most people with seats just sat there) we give a very mild applause after a song, and the best part of It all Is,our crowds actually leave early. I don't mean 2-3 songs before the concert ends, I'm talking 4-5 songs Into the concert. Times sure are different, we weren't always this lame, I seen them In 1992 On the Use Your Illusions Tour In Pittsburgh(Three Rivers Stadium) and the place was rockin, so much so, that It felt like the entire section was going to collapse.

I think GNRs influence is more inspiration than cultural or social impact. Because there style is more conservative, it's not like a revolution. Which I think is fair, its just good music. It's more about attitude or ambition. Maybe not the most worthy of causes but bands like Manics, Oasis, Avenged Sevenfold, Buckcherry, Strokes have all name checked them. In someways GNR really opened the door for grunge bands. GNR brought back the rougher edge, Nirvana just took it further. GNR turned spandex to leather.

There we go, thank you, the first poster speaking in defence of GnR that actually clocked on to what the fuck i was talking about and actually made a fair point, herein lies the difference between ironmt going on and on about record sales and failing to address a single thing being discussed and someone actually making a point relevant to the discussion, makes a lot of sense too

Address this question. It was not uncommon for the group to play entire sets of covers, ranging anywhere from Bryan Adams' "Summer of '69" to Dusty Springfield's "The Look of Love" to Led Zeppelin's "Black Dog." Now Is that your Idea Of a band that were trend setters and making a huge mark on the music Industry? By the way, It's pretty much common knowlege, If you have ever listened to the Appetite album ,that they opened the door for grunge bands and brought back the rough edge. Good points Wasted.

Again, i have NO idea what you're talking about and what relevance playing covers has to making a huge mark on the industry, what on earth has that got to do with anything?!?! This is getting so like...ridiculous, OK, The Beatles played entire sets of covers, would you say that they weren't influential? What has playing covers got to do with making a mark on the industry, unless you're trying to suggest that the playing of covers invalidates your original matierial, what has that got to do with anything, explain it to me. Guns n Roses recorded an entire album of covers, as did any John Lennon as did Johnny Thunders as have any number of artists, what on earth has that got to do with anything? You've mentioned that they played entire sets of covers but you haven't made an comment about what significance you believe that to have so until you explain that i'm afraid i can't answer your question.

And as far as Appetite opening the doors for grunge, you're just basically copying what Wasted said and i agreed with, in the entire thread up until that point i kept asking you over and over and over the same question and you just didn't have an answer and once i've agreed on it with someone else you're going "yeah, yeah, that!!", where the fuck were you the 40 million other times that i was asking you?!?! Did you really have to make me repeat the same question over and over and over until someone made your point for you?

And yes, there is a school of thought that says Appetite had SOMETHING to do with the notion of bringing about a certain authenticity back to rock n roll but to suggest that that is the reason the mainstream embraced grunge and not the prior decade of work put in by the underground punk scene, music which has a direct audible link to the grunge bands (i.e. you can hear it in their music) and music that the grunge bands themselves cited as their influence, the music that grunge was actually a part of the lineage of, instead of Appetite which is basically good time rock n roll with a sort of sleazy edge to it, to suggest that Appetite is responsible for that shit more than that other stuff, is just ridiculous.

I mean, what, bands like Nirvana and Mudhoney and Tad and have more in common with Appetite era Guns n Roses than bands like Husker Du or The Replacements or Black Flag, the bands they actually sounded like, played the same circuits as, had much of the same ethics as and cited as their influences, is that honestly what you're trying to say?

The most mileage you could get out of that point as far as i'm concerned is, in a vague sense, the success of Apetite was indication of the fact that the mainstream was perhaps more willing at that point in musical history to embrace something a little more authentic than what was around at the time, thats about it.

My only point In this whole debate was and still Is that The Replacements being more Influential than Guns N Roses Is an OPINION.

Right, an opinion that i was discussing and then backing up with facts, now you can disagree with it, you're welcome to but so far you haven't managed to dispute it very well at all. See this is the thing, everything in opinion and theory and then you back it up with facts and prove your point. Obviously, y'know, there ain't an all purpose guage to this shit, all one can do in a discussion is to discuss or debate based on the evidence at hand or knowledge they have or variables that they can take into consideration, i'm not writing the fuckin bibles sequel, i'm saying what i think and, more importantly, WHY i think it and if you disagree then do it and if you can prove it and point out facts that corrobrate your point, do it.

So what the fucks wrong with that?

Thank you for finally stating this point "i'm saying what i think and, more importantly, WHY i think it". Thats all I was looking for. I am out of this discussion. Take care.

As far as the mats playing a whole set of 'terrible' covers, ill try andf explain, they were like kings of irony before irony was everywhere (at least it was in the 90s), really self deprecating band, i love em to bits. And they were hugely influential on the whole alternative scene that followed them, they were a seminal band. I think Gnr were just as good a band but they werent nearly as influential. And for that journalist to call tommy stinson a duff impersonator is fucking laughable.

My only point In this whole debate was and still Is that The Replacements being more Influential than Guns N Roses Is an OPINION. sugaraylen has tryed to convince myself and anyone else that will listen, that It Is FACT, and thats just simply not the case. I do agree that any journalist calling Tommy Stinson a Duff Impersonator Is ridiculous.

I think GNRs influence is more inspiration than cultural or social impact. Because there style is more conservative, it's not like a revolution. Which I think is fair, its just good music. It's more about attitude or ambition. Maybe not the most worthy of causes but bands like Manics, Oasis, Avenged Sevenfold, Buckcherry, Strokes have all name checked them. In someways GNR really opened the door for grunge bands. GNR brought back the rougher edge, Nirvana just took it further. GNR turned spandex to leather.

There we go, thank you, the first poster speaking in defence of GnR that actually clocked on to what the fuck i was talking about and actually made a fair point, herein lies the difference between ironmt going on and on about record sales and failing to address a single thing being discussed and someone actually making a point relevant to the discussion, makes a lot of sense too

Address this question. It was not uncommon for the group to play entire sets of covers, ranging anywhere from Bryan Adams' "Summer of '69" to Dusty Springfield's "The Look of Love" to Led Zeppelin's "Black Dog." Now Is that your Idea Of a band that were trend setters and making a huge mark on the music Industry? By the way, It's pretty much common knowlege, If you have ever listened to the Appetite album ,that they opened the door for grunge bands and brought back the rough edge. Good points Wasted.

I was actually getting at the notion of changing the history of rock n roll and being one of the core influences behind a decades worth of underground of underground music and a worldwide explosion of alternative music and culture from the early 90s onwards, lets be clear about this, it's a helluva lot more than "a few alternative bands" but look, it's clear you don't actually have a point to make or anything to refer to, you're just gonna shag the same dead horse here nor do you appear to have much of an awareness about what you've taken upon yourself to comment on, I mean you've yet to even cite one single way in which Guns n Roses were at all influential in music in a historical context except to say that they sold a lot of records so lets just draw a line under this, until you feel like you wanna have a discussion or something, in which case, i'll be around, thanks, good talking to ya

I have nothing to prove, you are the one that needs to prove something, anyway here Is a little history, just for you, by the way I'm glad to here that you are familier with Guns N Roses as you referenced a song title of theres In your post(Dead Horse). Now back to history, Guns n Roses have the best-selling debut of all time, both in the U.S. and worldwide. August 31st, 1991 - Wembley Stadium in London England.

72000 tickets were sold out in record breaking time. No artist had sold out the venue this fast before G N R.

September 17th 1991 Use Your Illusion released at number one and number two on the Billboard charts. They marked the first time a major contemporary rock artist had released two separate albums on the same day. November 25th, 1992 biggest show ever staged in Venezuela. Guns N Roses embarked on the longest tour in rock history, They played a total of 192 dates in 27 countries to over 7 million fans grossing 58 million. So there It Is, I could go on and on but In your mind you are right, guess what you are entitled to your opinion. Just remember who your boy Tommy Stinson works for.

Again, this is all stuff related to commerce...sales, making money, it has nothing to do with the point i've been making which i think has escaped you a little and that was that i think that The Replacements, based on the reasons i've mentioned earlier in the thread, have had a bigger effect on the history of music and the industry, what you're doing is citing attendance records and record sales in response to something that has absolutely nothing to do with what i was talking about. If you have nothing to prove then why are you wasting my time man?!?!?! I made some comments and if you didn't wanna discuss em then say you don't wanna, simple! Or don't respond to the posts. You have yet to even approach addressing my point and so, for the second time of trying, i'm gonna draw a line under this because, with all due respect, i don't think you've understood a word i've said, which is fine, thanks a lot, nice talking to you, God bless

You can think what you like. Everything Is here for everyone to read and they can judge for themselves. I believe I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt(and I could keep giving you FACTS not opinions) on who was more relevant to the history of music but what good would It do. It doesn't get much better than having the best-selling debut of all time, both in the U.S. and worldwide to prove who had the bigger effect on the history of music and the Industry. See the Industry likes bands that sell music, It tends to keep the buisness side of things going. I just found this little tidbit of Information about The Replacements that you might find Interesting, It was not uncommon for the group to play entire sets of covers, ranging anywhere from Bryan Adams' "Summer of '69" to Dusty Springfield's "The Look of Love" to Led Zeppelin's "Black Dog." Now Is that your Idea Of a band that were trend setters and making a huge mark on the music Industry. If so you are way out there and beyond any help.

I was actually getting at the notion of changing the history of rock n roll and being one of the core influences behind a decades worth of underground of underground music and a worldwide explosion of alternative music and culture from the early 90s onwards, lets be clear about this, it's a helluva lot more than "a few alternative bands" but look, it's clear you don't actually have a point to make or anything to refer to, you're just gonna shag the same dead horse here nor do you appear to have much of an awareness about what you've taken upon yourself to comment on, I mean you've yet to even cite one single way in which Guns n Roses were at all influential in music in a historical context except to say that they sold a lot of records so lets just draw a line under this, until you feel like you wanna have a discussion or something, in which case, i'll be around, thanks, good talking to ya

I have nothing to prove, you are the one that needs to prove something, anyway here Is a little history, just for you, by the way I'm glad to here that you are familier with Guns N Roses as you referenced a song title of theres In your post(Dead Horse). Now back to history, Guns n Roses have the best-selling debut of all time, both in the U.S. and worldwide. August 31st, 1991 - Wembley Stadium in London England.

72000 tickets were sold out in record breaking time. No artist had sold out the venue this fast before G N R.

September 17th 1991 Use Your Illusion released at number one and number two on the Billboard charts. They marked the first time a major contemporary rock artist had released two separate albums on the same day. November 25th, 1992 biggest show ever staged in Venezuela. Guns N Roses embarked on the longest tour in rock history, They played a total of 192 dates in 27 countries to over 7 million fans grossing 58 million. So there It Is, I could go on and on but In your mind you are right, guess what you are entitled to your opinion. Just remember who your boy Tommy Stinson works for.

You will soon learn that Len is always right, on every subject.

And he will respond to your post and ignore ALL the facts you provided - but go off on a 25 paragraph response that vears into responses where you will go "Uhhh, what the heck does that have to do with anything I said" and by the time it is finished, he will have warped your response into saying that you think GnR are angels sent from heaven and your local bar polka band is 100 times better than The Replacements. Eventually he will start personally insulting you and you'll be a racist bigot c*nt. And then soon after that you will leave the debate because you will find yourself arguing about things you hadn't ever said or implied, and you will just move on to other topics.

I thought he just did that with me........but then you see him do it with other people.......and it all makes sense! I used to enjoy debating with him, but eventually I kept finding myself saying "What the heck are you talking about, I never said that" when reading his responses, so now I try and not get caught up in his rants. Even though I did in this topic, so I except the name-calling and insults to start all over again!!!!

Thank you for pointing that out. I am starting to see where this Is going. I am completely lost as to why anyone would come on a Guns N Roses message board and try to convince other members why another band Is more Influential than the band the board Is dedicated to.

I was actually getting at the notion of changing the history of rock n roll and being one of the core influences behind a decades worth of underground of underground music and a worldwide explosion of alternative music and culture from the early 90s onwards, lets be clear about this, it's a helluva lot more than "a few alternative bands" but look, it's clear you don't actually have a point to make or anything to refer to, you're just gonna shag the same dead horse here nor do you appear to have much of an awareness about what you've taken upon yourself to comment on, I mean you've yet to even cite one single way in which Guns n Roses were at all influential in music in a historical context except to say that they sold a lot of records so lets just draw a line under this, until you feel like you wanna have a discussion or something, in which case, i'll be around, thanks, good talking to ya

I have nothing to prove, you are the one that needs to prove something, anyway here Is a little history, just for you, by the way I'm glad to here that you are familier with Guns N Roses as you referenced a song title of theres In your post(Dead Horse). Now back to history, Guns n Roses have the best-selling debut of all time, both in the U.S. and worldwide. August 31st, 1991 - Wembley Stadium in London England.

72000 tickets were sold out in record breaking time. No artist had sold out the venue this fast before G N R.

September 17th 1991 Use Your Illusion released at number one and number two on the Billboard charts. They marked the first time a major contemporary rock artist had released two separate albums on the same day. November 25th, 1992 biggest show ever staged in Venezuela. Guns N Roses embarked on the longest tour in rock history, They played a total of 192 dates in 27 countries to over 7 million fans grossing 58 million. So there It Is, I could go on and on but In your mind you are right, guess what you are entitled to your opinion. Just remember who your boy Tommy Stinson works for.

As far as "alternative" bands go - it was college rock played on college radio, and distributed by college age kids.

Which makes it all the more extraordinary that the entire music industry and the history of rock n roll was effect by it surely?

As stated In my previous post thats your opinion, who are you to be judge and jury on which band was the most Influential?

Absolutely nothing but i can state the facts of a given matter based on apparent evidence, which is what i did.

Ten years from now when a supergroup comes along and when asked who there Influences were and they name Guns N Roses, are you going to be arrogant enough to tell them that that just can't be, because the facts are that the Replacements are more Influential.

What in Gods name is that supposed to mean? Where in the assertion that The Replacements are more influential than Guns n Roses did you interpret the statement that it is impossible for Guns n Roses to influence anyone?

I'm sure there are bands out there right now who would consider Guns N Roses to be more Influential than The Replacements. It's all an OPINION.

What to themselves personally or the industry on the whole? If the former, then yes, thats more than possible, if the latter then they're welcome to state their opinion and if they can reason it out, as i've gone to great lengths to do so in this thread then Fair play to em but thats not what you're doing here, you're just saying "it's all opinion", well i'm sorry but it's not, we're not talking about some abstract thing here, this is a reality, we're talking about things that really happened and on the whole I think The Replacements are more influential and i've stated why and backed it up, if i'm wrong, this is a forum, a forum for discussion, show me how I'm wrong or how you feel that i'm wrong, unless you don't want to engage in a discussion with me and that's fine too but to just keep saying "it's all opinion, it's all opinion" is avoiding the point, this ain't my opinion, this is a fact, The Replacements, as of January 2012, based on the reasons i've stated, are more important to the history of music so far. Now, as i say,if you think otherwise, knock yourself out, explain it to me.

A band's importance is relevant to how much the fan likes that band.

Rubbish. I don't think much of Black Sabbath...or Led Zeppelin but i don't for one second go around stating that they don't have any importance to the history of rock n roll, this is sort of the mentality that i'm talking about, that historical facts should somehow be coloured by personal preference, never understood that.

Len is a die-hard punk fan, so he thinks the punk bands are the be-all end-all of the music world.

Does he really? Did you ask him that or...?

It's a fact In your mind. Influencing a few alternative bands from the early 90's hardly justifies being considered more Influential than Guns N Roses. This Is the best part of your argument "I think The Replacements are more influential". That Is once again...... Here It goes......... Your favorite word........ an O?INIO?.... Fuck It, you feel In the blanks.

out to get me.

Big fucking deal, there were a few alternative bands Influenced by the Replacements. That does not make them an integral part of a history that was far more important to music than anything GnR ever had anything to do with. The Replacements never experienced any significant commercial success, and where are all your big alternative bands that were Influenced by them. You might want to check your facts, from what I recall Guns N Roses were playing to stadiums In 1993, well and truly far from sunk.

Commerce isn't really the yardstick of importance in musical history, is it? I mean by that rationale, Bros, Milli Vanilli, these guys sold huge, The Backstreet Boys but thats not really the yardstick of musical importance in a historical context, is it? You do it again by asking me who are the big alternative bands influenced by The Replacements, again, thats not what i'm talking about, what i'm talking about is helping to set prescedents that effected the musical industry. Like basically being an integral part of the creation of an underground circuit in America, one thats still being used today, about being one of the only bands out of that whole 80s American punk era that got signed to a major record label, that is an ENORMOUS prescedent and its something that led to a huge change and shift in the dynamics of the record industry, these things are what historical importance is based on, the way in which music reaches people and is presented to people, the dynamics of an entire industry, The Replacements played a kind of music and were part of a movement that was literally undigestable by the mainstream and yet the mainstream came to it, thanks to the work done by bands like The Replacements and Husker Du and Black Flag and so on and so forth. Guns n Roses just played mainstream music and became accepted by the mainstream by doing it, got big and then fizzled out, now, there's a lot of achievement in what GnR did and i'm obviously a fan or i wouldn't be there but in terms of historical importance, which is what i was talking about, sorry, Replacements beat em out...and easily.

And yeah, checking those facts, based on the standards of importance that you've laid out (which appears to be strictly commerce) the album they released in 93 sold a helluva lot less than the albums before it and although they were playing stadiums in 1993, they also stopped playing altogether in 1993...for the rest of the decade. Now how much more sunk can you get than not playing? Exactly. Face it, that kind of stadium filling classical lead singer/lead guitarist type rock n roll, GnR were the last band of it so you could even go so far as to say alternative or punk rather the effects of all that were reponsible for the death of the entire type of music that bands like GnR or Aerosmith or what have you represented. At least in terms of relevance if not commercial viability. But then historical importance is a musical context is about what you've actually done for the medium and not how much money you made while doing it.

The Replacements have never gotten their due. They were a very important band.

I agree, sort of. I mean they have and they haven't insofar as when you watch music documentaries now and history of rock n roll things that whole movement in the 80s is given it's due to some degree, or books like Our Band Could Be Your Life by Michael Azzard and The Replacements are like, one of the 13 most important bands cited that bought about a HUGE shift in the music industry, which is kinda smile-inducing to see But yeah, as a general thing? No, The Replacements didn't get anything like the respect they deserve. These things change though and they're starting to.

If you look at all the musical documentarys that show the history of rock n roll, there's never really a mention of Guns n Roses because it would be remiss of said documentary to assign that much importance to GnR. And it's not cuz they try and be cool and hip and only pick out unknown bands, look at that BBC one, the seven ages of rock, there's an episode for like the Hendrix late 60s era, one for metal, one for punk, one for britpop/rock, one for glam, one for stadium rock and one for alternative. Guns n Roses aren't even mentioned really in those documentaries. The Replacements are though. In fact, one of the episodes is named after a Replacements song (Left of the Dial). Not bad for a band of drunken misfits from Minneapolis eh? And this is a constant thing, when you look at the editorialisation or history books or timelines or what have you, regarding rock n roll, Guns n Roses, despite being SOOOO fucking huge, are barely mentioned. And The Replacements, without hardly selling shit relatively, are frequently cited.

To put it in one sentence and sum up everything into a nice digestible question for you to answer, historical importance in music is largely about being pioneers...so tell me, what were GnR pioneers of? Being a big band...or even a huge band doesn't necessarily denote historical importance in music.

As stated In my previous post thats your opinion, who are you to be judge and jury on which band was the most Influential? Ten years from now when a supergroup comes along and when asked who there Influences were and they name Guns N Roses, are you going to be arrogant enough to tell them that that just can't be, because the facts are that the Replacements are more Influential. I'm sure there are bands out there right now who would consider Guns N Roses to be more Influential than The Replacements. It's all an OPINION.