ludurigan

On 16/03/2020 at 1:21 PM, UcudBmine said:

I'd happily pay for some good UYI era liveshows, but I don't see them doing that. 

Honestly, I think we heard most of the unreleased demo's and songs from that era already.

one more piece of gold from that era is the izzy cassette tapes

by many accounts, izzy sent cassete tapes with ideas and riffs to the band from 1989 to 1990

check this duff quote from https://www.a-4-d.com/t89-izzy-stradlin

Izzy had gotten sober for good by this stage [late 1989], and he kept his distance from [Slash and I]. During the songwriting process [for Illusions], he would send us homemade cassette tapes of his songs and ideas. There was no animosity about his reluctance to come to rehearsals, and his songs - like 'Pretty Tied Up' and 'Double Talkin' Jive' - were great [Duff's autobiography, "It's So Easy, 2011, p. 162-163]

now can you imagine having access to these izzy cassette tapes with early embryonary versions of songs that we all know

and can you imagine how many song and ideas from these tapes may have been rejected by the band and no one has ever heard them

that is fucking gold mate!

47 minutes ago, Creed said:

TSI sounds more pro than CD. But CD is more creative than TSI of course. The only song on TSI, which is creative is SIDHY. The rest are 1:1 covers. Great sound quality, but just useless imo. They already made 1:1 covers of Heartbreak Hotel and Jumpin Jack Flash, which didnt make it on AFD and UYI...and then they made a full cover album...weird decision. A MTV unplugged would have been the best choice back then.

oh you should listen to the original recording of down on the farm for evidence that that is a 1:10 cover

the original is almost unlistenable, it\s pure garbage, whoever found and chose that song has a unbelievable good ear for diamonds in the rough

acoustic jjf has nothing to do with the original stones version and axl melody lines are absolutely sublime, very superior to anything jagger ever did on that song

heartbreak hotel is not my favorite but GNR clearly made it much faster and heavier and a bit different arrangement than the original. i like the tom petty version with axl and izzy though, its brilliant, axl could no no wrong at those days

40 minutes ago, 2020_Intensions said:

I never considered any cover GnR did to be 1:1 ... Especially on SI those songs have a much different feel & sound compared to the originals 

agree!

14 minutes ago, Voodoochild said:

I'm only pointing out that there are some elements there to make a build up the start of Axl's verses.

oh i can agree with that, there are definitely those elements, but to me it sounds like an amateur band trying to come up with an intro with dynamics and crescendo and failing miserably at it

On 3/17/2020 at 4:00 PM, UcudBmine said:

No I hadn't, had to look it up. But I'd love something like this by GN'R. The Locked & Loaded boxset was basically a polished up version of AFD, Lies and a bunch of stuff most of us already had/heard.

yeah

i don\t know how much you read about them

the backstory legend apparently is that someone related to ronnie wood sold that material for drug money

anyway, it is about 10 plus CDs worth of studio material covering all the stages of the album production

it has very early takes of all the songs

it has a lot of ideas and songs that were abandoned at different levels of development from basic ideas to completely finished songs (similar to aint going down, for example)

check these two out...

these two songs were LEFT OUT of the album yet most everyone who has listened to them finds them very superior to a lot of the officially released songs

also as a side note, a couple of the early very basic and undeveloped ideas that they recorded during the voodoo sessions were many many yeas later reworked in about two brand new songs for the latest keith solo album released a couple of years ago

now back to GNR

if the info we have is correct, and I am basing this on the izzy quote that they recorded the illusion albums three times (and all the available info that corroborates that), i guess it is fair to assume that guns n roses writing and recording sessions for UYI took place in at least three different times and locations from 1989 to 1991

so what does that tell you

that tells me that there are HOURS AND HOURS AND HOURS of recorded sessions

and that most certainly includes

' early takes of all known songs

' a lot of ideas and songs that were abandoned at different levels of development

i am pretty sure of that

what i am not sure of is if those recordings still exist and who has them

5 hours ago, Live Like a Suicide said:

As we have fuck all to talk about for months, i'm resurrecting this to discuss the recent rehearsal. I think the intro that has been reconstructed by Duff and Slash is infinitely better than the intro in this leak. I love the classic bass line and Slash's alterations on the lead. With the new intro, it is immediately identifiable as a GNR song - it has me excited to hear the studio version and/or a live version soon. I think Axl's vocals were poor, obviously given it was a rehearsal, but it would be interesting to see if Axl re-recorded it at all.

the original intro is very poor, there is no dynamics, no drama, no crescendo, it is just boring

i didnt listen to the new intro but it should not be that hard to come up with a better one

On 01/03/2020 at 10:55 PM, Blackstar said:

What Brian May said in 2000:

And in 2008, after Axl's forum chats:

 

translation to english language

look, i like axl, he asked me to help him, i tried my best, i told him this and that, but sometimes that is no use, sometimes you just got to let people crash on the wall, they need to crash on that wall so they can learn for themselves

On 02/03/2020 at 12:27 AM, Gibsonfender2323 said:

people are more positive of CD now

what

On 02/03/2020 at 12:27 AM, Gibsonfender2323 said:

Axl seeing Slash and Duff play CD  songs is a giant victory lap and vindication for him

what

4 hours ago, UcudBmine said:

Yes to both, love the Stones  why do you ask?

great

i am asking because this has everything to do with the matter we are discussing

have you ever heard anything about voodoo brew, voodoo stew and voodoo residue

11 minutes ago, UcudBmine said:

Honestly, I think we heard most of the unreleased demo's and songs from that era already.

I am pretty sure we didn\t get to hear not even 10% of what was recorded in studio 1989 to 1991

a quick question_ do you like the rolling stones

and are you familiar with their voodoo lounge album

i believe everyone here should know this song has some precious additional info on izzy's sleeping (and other) habits!

21 hours ago, bikka said:

It's actually 7 p.m... There was an interview with Izzy where he explicitly said that, can't find it though...

yes it should be 7 PM of course!

14 hours ago, Nice Boy said:

 

Woah. Are you sure? If that's correct then this completely resets the fundamentals of the GnR clock.

We need to holler that guy who runs the a-f-d website with all the archived old interview transcripts, a great endevour. What's his name again?

 

it's @SoulMonster and @Blackstar

17 minutes ago, Rovim said:

I think Marc probably meant that there is no unreleased material from the classic line up days that he knows about, that is on par with what got officially released by the old lineup. I was strictly talking about original music, not live shows. He also said something along the line of almost everything they came up with back then was used. Very little got scrapped. You can, of course, believe what you want.

yes I think the same of you that is exactly what Marc probably meant

I am talking about original music as well, but i am not talking about just full complete professional recordings of finished songs

those would certainly be very welcome, but like you mentioned it is very likely that they don't exist or if they do it should be just a few songs

i am also talking about unfinished songs and or ideas that 1) most likely existed, like i been trying to say on several posts here, because that's just the nature of songwriting 2) may have been recorded, even if just for reference 3) may still exist today if someone kept these recordings

do you want a good example of that?

there exists a 17 minutes incomplete recording of a hollywood rose rehearsal in which they play 3 or 4 songs that we know

on this rehearsal they also play a "song" (just about 1 minute and a few seconds) with axl vocals and lyrics, that to this day (to the best of my knowledge) remains unnamed

That piece of music is great

You can tell by the way that Axl sang the lyrics on that occasion that the lyrics were written before he sang them

So it is VERY LIKELY that that little 1-minute-piece-of-music is actually a part of an already written, developed, structured and likely finished *song*

You can, of course, not want to listen to that

On 28/02/2020 at 8:33 AM, All Cautions Made said:

Regarding Forever Together, it was never finished and there were never any full concerts filmed for it. Footage of it consists of one camera running through the stage.

Regarding Forever Together, isn't that the name of an unreleased Bon Jovi song?

On 09/03/2020 at 9:55 AM, DurhamGirl said:

I was watching a few Alt and Slash clips when Miles sang SCOM,  it did not feel right to me at all (apart from the fact that he does not sing it well) it felt out of place and kind of 'unseemly' , 'it should have been Axl' and nobody else.  I suppose sort of disloyal oof Slash, maybe I am being too sensitive.

in a semi-perfect world izzy would be singing on slash's band and slash would be the lead guitar player on izzy's band and these two bands would be one and the same SO we would listen to izzy singing guns n roses INSTEAD of all these talented-professional-singers-that-hit-all-the-high-notes-but-sound-bland-as-shit like miles kennedy

On 08/03/2020 at 3:42 PM, Creed said:

Cool Pic of Axl with his real teeth. He changed them right after WTTJ. 

With regard to Rock n Roll Rose: Sounds like a real deal to me. Interesting that he mentioned it in one line with NR and YCBM. So was it as good as them?

well, it should be at least in the same ball park

i don't think it is as good as YCBM by any means, or else they would be really stupid to abandon it

but, hey, they have abandoned a little song called i ain't going down, haven't they?

On 08/03/2020 at 1:19 PM, Rovim said:

plus I remember a poster had asked Marc Canter if there was a lot of unreleased material left by the classic lineup from the Appetite/UYI days to which Marc replied that there wasn't, that they have released most of it, everything that was worth releasing. (something like that)

We know for a fact that Marc filmed basically every gig that Guns n' Roses did on the club days and beyond.

We know for a fact that he was very close to Slash and to the band in general so we can guess that Marc probably listened to most -- if not all -- of the complete and finished songs that Guns n' Roses professionally recorded in those days.

We also know for a fact that despite being close to the band and everything, it is very likely that Marc -- just like everyone else that was not in the band -- most likely had very little access to band practice sessions. That includes:

- Acoustic guitar jams and (or "writing sessions") that Izzy, Slash and Duff did on their sofas at home, sometimes likely with Axl around

- Studio rehearsals for upcoming gigs

- Studio practice sessions

- Soundchecks during the Appetite tour

- and who knows what else

Like I said in the post above, a lot of bands do not-professional recordings of rehearsals, jams, writing sessions etc for reference.

Ask any songwriter and they will tell you that they can come up with 2, 3, 5 or more new song ideas in just a few hours during some of these writing sessions, and that most of them record these writing sessions for later reference.

so there might be lots of golden stuff that was recorded (not-professionally) and later abandoned for whatever reason.

do these recordings still exist?

===

you mention that Marc say something about "everything that was worth releasing was released"

Well, I am not looking for recordings that Marc or Guns n' Roses believe are worth releasing.

I am looking for every recording of Guns n' Roses that exists from 1985 to 1991.

Simple as that.

I couldn't care less if Marc Canter or Guns n' Roses thinks that these are worth releasing or not.

I know, for a fact, that these are worth listening to.

Why?

Because, to this day, all the unreleased Guns n' Roses material inn circulation that I ever listened to is really, really worth listening to.

On 07/03/2020 at 4:47 PM, SoulMonster said:

I hate to rain on your parade again, buddy, but I think you are a bit too optimistic here.

The way the band worked, I don't think there is much unheard material. What they did was send in song ideas to the rest of the band, or present them when they met (like in Chicago). Then they decided upon which songs to try out, Duff and Matt and Slash would work on them. And from this there would likely be quite a bit of recordings of various instrumentals because I assume these rough demos without vocals would be shared among the band members and others for further work. But then they quickly decided on which songs they wanted and went into pre-production to churn out decent versions of the songs, all without vocals. By January 1991 they had recorded 35 songs, but only a few with vocals. I think there are about 40 songs on UYIs + SI., + Ain't Goin' Down. So they didn't record much that didn't end up on either. We know they recorded a Hanoi Rocks song (without vocals) and Down on the Streets by The Stooges (without vocals), but those are the only two I can think of. Likely a few other instrumentals, both originals and covers.

And the very last thing that happened was Axl adding vocals and from statements they made at the time, it doesn't seem like he added vocals to many more songs then those that ended up on the albums.

Thanks for your reply

I noticed on your post that you seem to be referring to the Illusions era (roughly 1989-1991). Is that right?

Just to make it clear, the "estimates" from my post refer to the entire Guns n' Roses era 1985-1991 and not just the Illusions era.

So let's focus on the Illusion era.

You described the modus operandi of the band at the time...

"they (...) send in song ideas to the rest of the band, or present them when they met (like in Chicago). Then they decided upon which songs to try out, Duff and Matt and Slash would work on them."

I agree with you that that was the basic MO of the band at that time. They didn't live together in the same place anymore. Not only that but apparently they didn't get together half as much as they did during the Appetite era. OK. But I can NOT agree that they NEVER got together in three years for writing sessions. I am pretty sure they did it and I am pretty sure they did it several times over the 1989-1991 time.

For example, let's think about the "writing session" for Locomotive. If my memory serves me right, Izzy and Slash got together, they were both stoned and/or drunk, and they wrote the basic initial idea of the song together.

Now how do you think that happened? Do you think they decided "hey, let's write a heavy rocker" and they came up with Locomotive and just Locomotive and nothing but Locomotive?

Anyone who has ever been in a writing session will tell you that this is not how it happens. Usually songwriters throw several ideas at each other until they decide which ones to pick up and develop. Until that happens, they dabble with different ideas.

So you can be sure that for every fully developed song that a band creates, there will be one, two, three, or even more potential songs that were tried and abandoned at different stages for different reasons.

Sometimes bands abandon even very developed ideas or fully-developed ideas ("songs") for whatever reason.

I can give you a few reasons:

- no one recorded the writing sessions and no one remembers what was played

- the session was recorded but the tapes were lost or forgotten

- everyone agreed that this and that idea (songs) were nice but they voted (or decided) to focus on developing this and that other ideas instead

- somebody in the band didn't like the idea/song and then it was abandoned

If you consider all the times some of them or all of them got together...

Yes I agree that "there would likely be quite a bit of recordings of various instrumentals" and that's exactly my point!

I would add that some of these "instrumentals" may have rough lyrics or guide vocals by izzy and/or the blonde king of yoga

When you say "then they quickly decided on which songs they wanted and went into pre-production to churn out decent versions of the songs, all without vocals" that describes precisely what happened when Matt was onboard, but i believe you are not taking into consideration what happened 1989-1990 when matt was NOT in the band. Izzy said they recorded the albums three times (by my guess that happened 1989-1991, probably two times with Steven Adler and one, the final, proper time, with Matt Sorum).

The fact that "By January 1991 they had recorded 35 songs, but only a few with vocals" doesn't mean that they didn't create 10, 20, 30 or 50 other "songs" (or just initial, very basic ideas of songs) that were abandoned and never professionally recorded.

But they may have been recorded nonetheless.

Bands record stuff for reference. I wouldn't be surprised if they recorded every rehearsal for reference -- to listen to in the car, to "not-forget" the songs, etc

You say "So they didn't record much that didn't end up on either"

I can agree with you if you mean "they didn't professionally recorded much fully-structured songs with lyrics that didn't end up on either"

But how many unfinished, not fully developed "songs" and "ideas" they may have recorded? Even if just for reference?

Game designer John Borg was interviewed many years ago for GameRoom magazine about the GN'R Pinball machine that he designed with the help of Slash.

The interview is being republished on GameRoomBlog.com

This time, for the first time, completely unedited

The guy has some interesting words on Axl and Slash

- [Axl] was “Mr. Impossible” at the speech session. I was very nervous meeting him and he wanted nothing to do with the project. Sound producer Mike Clink had to edit tapes before giving them to me. Axl kicked us all out off the sound stage and after 4 hours produced not much at all. Since Guns’ broke up, he has produced nothing ether. A great talent wasted in my opinion. I would like to use some colorful four letter words to describe him, but I’m bigger than that.

- Slash was a big pinball fan and collector. He approached us with the GnR game license. Gary and Joe asked him to do the Viper music and he was at the game show that year with us. He signed autographs at the booth too. Slash was a great guy and great to work with. Slash and Axl are like night and day—Axl being night, of course.

Full story = https://gameroomblog.com/features/guns-n-roses-pinball

13 hours ago, UcudBmine said:

My guess is Ain't Going Down wíth lyrics and the 158 Civil War takes from Adler.

do you think they should also include 32db and 64db drum mixes for each track?

On 05/03/2020 at 9:04 AM, UcudBmine said:

Well, if there's a lot of unheard demos from the UYI days you'll hear it next year when the UYI L&L Boxset is available for the same price as organs on the black market.

but wasn't the original plan to include 100 lithographs, 300 toys and 10 versions of Don't Cry on the uyi boxset?

seriously, they gave us very little uncirculated music on the appetite toy box and if there is a box for UYI i don't think they will give us any more uncirculated music

15 hours ago, djones1225 said:

Izzy must've brought up the idea of rearranging it. Cool if a recording exists. So the list of unreleased Illusions would be Ain't Goin Down, Rock N Roll Rose, Bring it Back Home, Sentimental Movie, Just Another Sunday, and I think Too Much too Soon. Dont believe Crash Diet was considered I think someone (Axl or Duff?) mentioned it wasnt. 

Don't we already know that these are all West Arkeen songs and that Axl just sang on them to help West sell his "demo tape" to record labels or to other bands?

I guess even Sentimental Movie (who doesn't have Axl's vocal) was a West Arkeen song too and can be included in this bunch, right?

There were a few very informative threads a while ago here about that, some forum users knew a lot of stuff about it.

15 hours ago, djones1225 said:

Izzy must've brought up the idea of rearranging it. Cool if a recording exists.

Yeah at first I thought that it was probably Izzy's idea but maybe it was Axl's because he wrote the song?

20 hours ago, Shackler's said:

I am sure. The audio matches 100% and the actual interview is for Canadian TV. 

fuck!

this is great news

2 hours ago, vloors said:

Rock n Roll Rose sounds like a working title. It could of been changed to another song title and released for all we know. Or just been the led zepplin cover Rock n Roll that Axl had did in the past.

 

No, it's definitely not a cover of the Led Zeppelin famous track

It is certainly a Hollywood Rose song written by Axl. Marc Canter mentions it by name on his book Reckless Road and says that Axl wrote the song after doing his first show in LA

47 minutes ago, DTJ80 said:

Oh totally agree. Was just saying if the snippets of sessions we HAVE heard or read about that it’s has never been mentioned or surfaced - until now with the above article. I hope it does exist somewhere!

yeah, me too

I am pretty sure there are LOTS and LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of songs that the band has just abandoned along the way

If you consider all the times that the band has got together to write songs and jam and rehearse from 1985 to 1991, I would say that there must be

- AT LEAST 5-10 songs that were fully structured with vocals and lyrics and that were abandoned

- AT LEAST 10-20 covers that were tried but for whatever reason were also abandoned and never recorded or performed live

- AT LEAST 50-80 half-finished songs without vocals or with unfinished vocals that were also abandoned/forgotten

- AT LEAST 100-200 instrumental ideas (maybe just a riff, maybe just a chord progression etc) that were started but were never fully developed

That is just what happens with bands

In Guns n' Roses, with 4 guys coming up with ideas...

The questions are

1) what was recorded?

2) if something was recorded, do the recordings still exist?

3) if the recordings still exist, who has them and will they ever be put in circulation?

I have said it several times here and I will say it again: these recordings are the GN'R Holy Grail.

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

I think this was just something Izzy thought about. Maybe he had discussed it with Axl and planned on sending in a tape with the song to Slash for consideration. I don't think the band had actually rehearsed it already in September 1989 (when this interview was conducted). But I could absolutely be wrong.

it is possible, sure

but i would say that the opposite is more likely

izzy said "i will give you three song titles"

if you are giving three song titles to a journalist in amongst 30 that you can pick from, don't you agree that you will give him 3 songs that are/were "really likely" to be included on the album?

i believe that's at least what was on izzy's mind

i don't think he would give the name of a song title for the next album if this song hadn't been 1) played and arranged by the band and 2) accepted/agreed on by the band

but yeah i coud also be wrong

1 hour ago, Live Like a Suicide said:

Axl also sang Bloodshot Eyes with an early LA Guns, though i'm not sure if it was Axl or Tracii (or others) who brought it to the table.

That's an LA Guns song, right?

Do you know if LA Guns ever recorded it after Axl left the band?