Orsys

Regulation is tricky. Women worked, as they always have, but their work was not quantified by a dollar value. When women had to go out to work more to help support the family of course they would want the opportunities. They were not there. College was very biased towards white males right into the 60s. Regulation and "quotas" were there to try to bring women and other minorities to a more fair playing field. I can see that making white males very uncomfortable. But history was on their side for....forever. So here regulation to give fairness a kick start was essential. It gets women in the schools, in the door, and slowly up the ladder.

Hmmm, I wonder if these men's groups are primarily white male?

Let me tell you something about women.

They're fucking shitty people. I'm serious. I've had it. I don't know how to fucking say it but they're fucking mental. There's no such thing as logic or reasoning to women. I wouldn't even define it as 'emotional' - more like absolute insanity.

You can't win. If you ask for their number, they have you by the fucking balls already. It's just the fucking way it is.

So yes, goddam right I'm upset.

It's the same bullshit every fucking time, and it's fucking awful. Girls take you to emotional highs like never before, and then they'll fucking shit on them.

I can't wait until I get my CDL.

I WILL work in this world, but DAMN if I become apart of it.

i guess referring to women collectively as shitty people doesn't give you a great starting point with them.

MGTOW may be for you.

I don't know that it's so clearly a good thing.

Why not?

In the US, from 1950 to 2000 women in the workforce increased by 256.8%. Men increased 71.1%. That's a big change.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2002/05/art2full.pdf

I think you would need to see the figures before 1950. The 50's introduced the wierd post war move to the suburbs in North America when there was an increase in women staying home. This continued for one or two decades, but was not the norm before that time, and it was not sustainable. As Red mentioned, appetites for more and bigger stuff drove much of the need for additional income that men could not provide alone. But I also think that women just wanted and needed to provide as well, like they did before the weird North American suburbia post war thing happened.

Fair enough. Women's "pay" would not have been as clear before that. But good thing women needed to or chose to go the way that provided them with clear pay for work. Otherwise, the family income would be considered income of the male.

In the US, from 1950 to 2000 women in the workforce increased by 256.8%. Men increased 71.1%. That's a big change.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2002/05/art2full.pdf

I think you would need to see the figures before 1950. The 50's introduced the wierd post war move to the suburbs in North America when there was an increase in women staying home. This continued for one or two decades, but was not the norm before that time, and it was not sustainable. As Red mentioned, appetites for more and bigger stuff drove much of the need for additional income that men could not provide alone. But I also think that women just wanted and needed to provide as well, like they did before the weird North American suburbia post war thing happened.

It is a hugely real thing and a lot of men do think that way but y'know i think there's a difference between what comes out of our mouth when we are asked for our opinion and what he act upon in day to day life.

My only problem with this kinda stuff, or principle problem with this kinda stuff, is that i don't think I'm equipped to speak for other guys. Y'know how in these situations it's almost a silent agreement that there's some cross-gender consensus about all these key issues and aspects of the whole experience so uh, i dunno, I'm not personally upset no but then I'm kinda attached to females, girls can get away with a lot in my book, I'm a lot harder on guys, with girls its just like 'oh, you so crazy girl!'

Anyway, fuck em, let em be upset if they wanna, enjoy your time while it's here, if it's even here.

In the discussion the other night the couple of guys who were really into this stuff mainly rolled their eyes when a woman spoke, but were passionate when trying to convince the other guys of prejudices against men. .the other men started to agree. It was stuff about divorce settlements and custody rights. Sure these are the hot topics to win people over because you can always come up with examples where men appeared to be the losers against the evil woman who did nothing but eat bonbons and make dastardly plans against the man who was oblivious that there were problems. My experience for some years now is that pendulum is swinging more in favour of men. They didn't want to hear any of that.

I have brothers and a son and want them to have equsl rights. Why would I, as a woman, conspire against them?

Don't worry your pretty little heads about it boys. We're not outta get you

If the people you're hanging out with have these beliefs, you're hanging out with the wrong people. I mean seriously, a male (I won't refer to him as a 'man') who rolls his his eyes when a woman SPEAKS sounds like a fucking cunt to me. And I know that's harsh language on your side of the world, but so be it. Anyone who rolls his eyes at a natural born human being speaking is fucked in the head. I would actually leave if any men I was socialising with made such a reference. I just know that I like to exist, I like to live, I like to work and I know that my household contribution financially is essential to our way of life. Even if I didn't work and I was raising children I would know that my contribution to the household meant that I HAVE A RIGHT TO A VOICE.

I personally am not acquainted with any men who have expressed these opinions. In fact, the men I have the closest relationships with have quite the opposite view. They respect women, appreciate the contribution they make to the economy and to the household. Personally, I think it's a responsibility of men to acknowledge the contribution that women make to this world and to their femininity and it's a responsibility of women to acknowledge the contribution that men make to this world and to their masculinity. I guess for the men you refer to the latter is not happening. But considering the fact that the world was for centuries (possibly millennia if we really want to get technical) geared to the favour of men I think women can be given a reprieve of judgment for just a little while.

RED! I was waiting for you in this thread. Yes, these were a couple of knobs that I had not known before the dinner. I don't think this type of discussion was going to be tolerated for too much of the dinner and we did have lovely conversation before and after it. I guess that I, and a couple of others, could have just let them talk and look like the goofs they were, but honestly I can't. I have to at least counter the nonsense. 7 of the 9 people there saw it or what it was.

I know one of my brothers has been watching some of these "Sandman" youtube videos and sees some of the arguments. But I have not heard of the MGTOW group before. My relationships with men are with those who have good relationships with women and would see us as partners, or I would not have relationships with them. But I was curious how many others have heard of these "movements" as they seem so archaic and silly. And, in fact, there is still an awful lot of work to do to bring women close to anything resembling equality and freedom.

No problem. Go get your sandwiches.

I had heard of A Voice For Men (AVFM) before as my brother is interested and we had debates in the past. But this MGTOW was new to me.

The dinner guest makeup was nine people, two of which were into this stuff (males). One of those was with his wife. I sensed this is a tricky area for them but can't be sure. She rolled her eyes a couple if times when he spoke, but didn't say much.

My questions focused on practical implementation. Okay, so men and women have to get back to the roles they biologically should play. How does that look when it's happening? What are each of us doing throughout the day when this utopia is reached? Since we evolved to something else, why are they so sure a return to pre-determined roles would fix the ills of the planet?

Theories and philosophies are fine, but I'm a practical girl. I'm still not clear on this part.

Man, any group who are historically the most powerful are going to struggle to make concessions for the sake of equality, how many times have you heard the bullshit phrase "I just feel like it's not okay to be a straight, white, protestant male anymore..." or similar depending on the country you're in? These people are being made to confront a fraction of the discrimination that has been perpetrated in their name against minorities throughout history and they feel so fucking entitled that they throw the toys out of the pram when they are perceived to be disadvantaged even a little bit.

That doesn't mean I believe in "positive discrimination", not choosing someone for a job because they are a straight, white, protestant male is every bit as bad as not choosing someone who isn't; true equality should mean the best candidate for the job gets it regardless of what the fuck they are, physically, culturally, spiritually etc. It's a difficult line to tread tbh.

But while a group is discriminated against, it takes a little while for the pendulum to swing back the other way. I think the gap between female and male pay must be finally narrowing in North America. Still lots of work to do in other parts of the world.

I hire a lot of technical people and I really don't think I could have built as strong a team if I was concerned about gender or race. I want the skills and ability to communicate, and I want to develop those that I hire. We have a great mix of men and women and nationalities. So I believe we are getting closer to your ideal, in North America at least.

I did ask which jobs us little ole girls could have. His response was those suited for women. So I said, oh so President, bank manager, CEO of major corps. He said "Uh, no dear" I kid you not.

So you punched him right?

How on earth did you manage to sit through that dinner?

That's the problem with corporatist feminism. The holy grail is President, bank manager or CEO. Well, off with your fuckin' heads too if that's what you aspire to.

It was actually the use of 'dear' what made me want to punch him.

There is no holy grail. It's different for everybody. For some it's being a stay at home mother, a carpenter or a CEO etc. it's all good. But it should be possible to aspire those jobs and hopefully for her achieve that goal.

I personally don't know guys, who stuggle with equality to be honest (or so I think). It's interesting to read there is a 'movement'.

Yes, "dear" was funny, especially if you know me. Several people looked at me quickly when he said it, but honestly, it made him look like a goof. I didn't have to say anything in reply.

Thanks Downzy.

I studied those commercials that make men out to be buffoons when I was doing my MBA. It was interesting that most were developed by male teams, and the aim was to women who were perceived to have the buying power in the home.

P4A, I also have female friends that would have preferred the option of staying home to raise their kids. I brought this up at dinner and the MGTOW guys said that's what we get for going against the biological plan.

I was so tempted to ask which of the guys had hunted the chickens we were having for dinner and which woman plucked the feathers, but didn't because ironically the host couple were a stay at home dad who was loving his time with the kids, and a mom who had a senior role at a large company, raking in the dollars. They both cooked the dinner. They shook their heads a few times during the discussion. It was great.

The femenists I know (allegedly) refuse to give head because they think it empowers men. Fuck them...

Hmmm, .i would have thought it empowered women.

I did ask which jobs us little ole girls could have. His response was those suited for women. So I said, oh so President, bank manager, CEO of major corps. He said "Uh, no dear" I kid you not.

So you punched him right?

How on earth did you manage to sit through that dinner?

When I told him I am the director of IT I thought his head would explode.

I believe that the best revenge is living well. It is for him to hate my achievements, not me. I'm enjoying them.

It was an odd evening MB. Of course we had other good conversation before and after this.

I did ask which jobs us little ole girls could have. His response was those suited for women. So I said, oh so President, bank manager, CEO of major corps. He said "Uh, no dear" I kid you not.

So you punched him right?

How on earth did you manage to sit through that dinner?

That's the problem with corporatist feminism. The holy grail is President, bank manager or CEO. Well, off with your fuckin' heads too if that's what you aspire to.

It is just important to aspire to something.

Divorce laws tended to support the post war model. Families moved from the farms where families had worked and contributed as a unit. In the suburbs, women contributed to the home by staying home and raising the kids while dad went out to work. In divorce mom was entitled to an income from that work that would have seen her as largely the one to continue that role.

But times have changed and the divorce model is changing with it. In many cases the woman is the primary bread winner, so the case by case situation must be understood. Shared custody is very common. Women paying alimony is more common.

I believe that each situation must be considered individually. Marriage becomes a more dicey prospect, much more complicated to legally prepare and then resolve when their is divorce. But that's only because it is a legal agreement, and like any legal agreement can become difficult when the agreement ends.

The male vs female thing seems to be an issue of more concern to me if we can't just figure out the day to day living stuff. I mean, I'm not applying for a job for any other reason than to support myself and my family. But it appears men are thinking that I should pause and think that it would be better for society and more fair to men if I did not apply for that job, because it should be his job. That's what I struggle with.

I did ask which jobs us little ole girls could have. His response was those suited for women. So I said, oh so President, bank manager, CEO of major corps. He said "Uh, no dear" I kid you not.

Those examples came up, but I said that I carry my own bags, have been known to pay for dinner often, and when I can't open the pickle jar, I don't immediately go to find a man, I use that contraption that opens jars. And holding a door open is gender neutral. It is just polite.

"Feminism" isn't one thing, so you can't really say it's this or that. But that's a whole other discussion.

Can you give us some more specifics about what was said during this conversation, Orsys? The Sandman reference doesn't help me. I only know one Sandman and he's a badass mygnr poster.

Men are losing in society because it is set up to promote and support the woman at the expense of men (e.g. woman gets man's job).

Men and boys are being imprisoned and drugged to maintain a control over them.

The courts in divorces favour women in settlements and custody (aren't most judges still men or are we taking that over too?)

Society will suffer and eventually cease in some way because women are not filling their intended biological role (men hunt, women cook, clean, satisfy men and have babies).

I must have missed some feminist meetings where it was decided how we would do all of this to men. I'm probably not living up to my required level of misandry. .too busy working alongside men, vacationing, laughing, cooking, shopping with them.

We were told the other night that the movement is bigger than we think and to get ready. I said "What do I wear?" I swear I thought the guy wanted to belt me (which was also something they felt was a right that they lost. yup he said that).

.

It is a hugely real thing and a lot of men do think that way but y'know i think there's a difference between what comes out of our mouth when we are asked for our opinion and what he act upon in day to day life.

My only problem with this kinda stuff, or principle problem with this kinda stuff, is that i don't think I'm equipped to speak for other guys. Y'know how in these situations it's almost a silent agreement that there's some cross-gender consensus about all these key issues and aspects of the whole experience so uh, i dunno, I'm not personally upset no but then I'm kinda attached to females, girls can get away with a lot in my book, I'm a lot harder on guys, with girls its just like 'oh, you so crazy girl!'

Anyway, fuck em, let em be upset if they wanna, enjoy your time while it's here, if it's even here.

In the discussion the other night the couple of guys who were really into this stuff mainly rolled their eyes when a woman spoke, but were passionate when trying to convince the other guys of prejudices against men. .the other men started to agree. It was stuff about divorce settlements and custody rights. Sure these are the hot topics to win people over because you can always come up with examples where men appeared to be the losers against the evil woman who did nothing but eat bonbons and make dastardly plans against the man who was oblivious that there were problems. My experience for some years now is that pendulum is swinging more in favour of men. They didn't want to hear any of that.

I have brothers and a son and want them to have equsl rights. Why would I, as a woman, conspire against them?

Don't worry your pretty little heads about it boys. We're not outta get you

But I find it difficult to really understand the argument because it comes across as bitterness over not getting a job he wants, or getting dumped. If men feel they want to go their own way, away from women, and make an environment where they will feel they have more rights, well, then do that. What is the fight? How am I standing in the way of that? When I said that the other night, the reply was "oh yeah? wait and see what happens to society. Women won't like that" But why be concerned about what women think of it?

I like you guys. I would like you to stay around. But there is no shackle on your ankle. Go, pursue your maleness. But does it have to be so anti-female?

And feminism was not anti-male, it was pro-female. Go ahead and be pro-male. I know I am.

I went to a dinner party with friends and some new acquaintances. This concept of MGTOW (Men Going Their own way) came up. That and misandry, anti-feminism. The subject of a guy named Sandman came up. seems to be a minor prophet on anti-female sentiments. I searched him on YouTube and he has a bunch of stuff out there that mainly promotes himself, but also includes quite a bit of anti-female propaganda.

If I understand this right, men are upset because women have had it too good and as a result men have been emasculated. They want their rights back and women should return to "their place" as nature dictates. This is primarily cooking and cleaning and having babies. Feminism is the cancer that goes against nature.

Not surprisingly, heated debates were the focus of the evening. And I didn't get it. Arguments were that these "men's rights" groups were not really about cutting women down, but building men back up. I say go for it, but all I heard in the discussion was quite an aggression against women that made me uncomfortable.

Is this really a thing? I guess I was too busy working and paying the bills on my own to understand I had somehow stolen men's ability to be men.

Just binge watched the fifth season of Downton Abbey. Love that show.

So a man cave is a place where guys can act like kids, be obnoxious and where they will go down on women...and this is presented as a great idea by men and not devised by clever women who benefit more from the arrangement?

ssshh

Merry Christmas everyone. Thanks for the laughs and support this year. Hope you spend the holidays with those people who make you smile.

Hope to add more after holidays.....

Drama: The Theory of Everything

Thriller: Gone Girl

Best Actor/Actress: Eddie Redmayne (Theory of Everything), Rosamund Pike(Gone Girl)

I don't really understand what my award means, but it's honorable, so I appreciate it.

Basically it means everybody loves you my dear! You don't make a spectacle of yourself so you're not noted in any one particular category but whenever people think of you they think of kittens and fluffiness and good advice and hugs and an understanding ear and in at least one young mans case, George Graham

Aw, Graham, gooner love.

I don't really understand what my award means, but it's honorable, so I appreciate it.

Which bands who stayed together did not eventually get worse?

Honest question.

Agreed. I am growing sad as I grow older because my bands grow older too. Bands usually explode out of a particular time and culture and when that changes it's harder for the bands to be as unique, as dangerous, as counter-culture. They they find other distractions and lose the edge. I'm not sure what human activity people get better at with age...

Patience, tolerance, Canasta.