Blackstar

That Izzy jammed on stage with Candy (the band Gilby was in) in late 1986 (it looks like it was at the Cathouse on New Year's Eve). Gilby has mentioned that he knew everyone in GN'R (and Izzy in particular) from the scene before he joined the band, but I don't think I knew that.

Here is a transcription of the BBC documentary: https://www.a-4-d.com/t8169-2016-02-05-bbc-four-the-most-dangerous-band-in-the-world-the-story-of-guns-n-roses

Tom Zutaut said that Axl talked to him about it during the recording of the vocals for the Illusions. That would make it somewhere between October 1990 and early 1991. I would guess it was more likely in the fall of 1990, because after that Axl would have a falling out with Tom Zutaut.

1992 RIP Magazine interview https://www.a-4-d.com/t545-1992-09-10-11-dd-rip-i-axl It's a strangely worded quote.

This is also based on the NY Civil Procedure Code (my link is about the mailing part) just providing step-by-step guidance. Here are all the related articles of the Civil Code: https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2022/cvp/article-3/ The article that lists the methods of service: https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2022/cvp/article-3/308/ The article about service by mail (the link I had posted): https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2022/cvp/article-3/312-a/

I suppose it wouldn't say it if it wasn't needed, at least in the case of sending the lawsuit by mail, or it would mention alternatives for proof of service. But not only does it mention it, but it says "must". I'm not sure about the case of leaving it at the door (if the affidavit is enough as proof).

Here is, for example, Axl's and GN'R's answer to the mic injury lawsuit: https://jumpshare.com/v/iQ8bp9ncBYZ8gilkJhX4 I expect something similar in this one, too. According to this, it is: https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2022/cvp/article-3/312-a/

Yes, but also although there was someone there to receive the lawsuit, they refused to give their name, so it was delivered to "John Does". Axl obviously can't say that he has moved (and I don't think he would be interested in having an "excuse" like that), but since there was no one at the door he can be considered absent for a while. But regardless, it is necessary for Axl or someone on his behalf (e.g. his lawyer) to acknowledge the service by signing the papers they received in order for the lawsuit to be considered served.

I don't think anything significant is going to happen for a while. Even when Axl's answer is filed in about two months from now, at this stage it will be just typical (a typical answer is addressing the lawsuit paragraph by paragraph and denying everything without further explanation). Unless he files a counter-suit (e.g. for defamation) along with the answer, but I doubt it. No.

In TB's/Fernando's case it isn't considered service (see the document I posted: https://jumpshare.com/s/8mdVcUdO8L29KYBphNUw) I suppose Axl can delay it and gain more time, but not ignore it (and I don't think he intends or wants to, since his attorney responded to the press right away). I can look for the ads (notices)

From what I understand, it's the plaintiff's responsibility to serve the lawsuit properly. If they fail or are not able to do it in the ways provided for in the civil law codes, they can request the court to allow them to serve it in another way. In the lawsuit of the woman who claims she was injured by Axl's mic, her lawyers haven't been able to serve the lawsuit to Team Brazil (who is one of the defendants) yet, and the court gave them permission to publish ads in the LA Times and other newspapers and also try to send it by email (the lawsuit hasn't been served yet even after that): https://jumpshare.com/s/8mdVcUdO8L29KYBphNUw If a defendant hasn't been served and can prove that the plaintiff didn't do everything necessary to make sure that it would be served, they can either have the lawsuit dismissed or they can litigate it even after more than a year has passed.

According to this https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2022/cvp/article-3/312-a/ the time that starts is for Axl/his attorneys to acknowledge the service and send the acknowledgement papers back, which is 30 days. And then, after that, it's 20 days for answering to the complaint: § 312-a. Personal service by mail. (a) Service. As an alternative to the methods of personal service authorized by section 307, 308, 310, 311 or 312 of this article, a summons and complaint, or summons and notice, or notice of petition and petition may be served by the plaintiff or any other person by mailing to the person or entity to be served, by first class mail, postage prepaid, a copy of the summons and complaint, or summons and notice or notice of petition and petition, together with two copies of a statement of service by mail and acknowledgement of receipt in the form set forth in subdivision (d) of this section, with a return envelope, postage prepaid, addressed to the sender. (b) Completion of service and time to answer. 1. The defendant, an authorized employee of the defendant, defendant's attorney or an employee of the attorney must complete the acknowledgement of receipt and mail or deliver one copy of it within thirty (30) days from the date of receipt. Service is complete on the date the signed acknowledgement of receipt is mailed or delivered to the sender. The signed acknowledgement of receipt shall constitute proof of service. 2. Where a complaint or petition is served with the summons or notice of petition, the defendant shall serve an answer within twenty (20) days after the date the signed acknowledgement of receipt is mailed or delivered to the sender.

It says they just left it out on the door at Axl's house (no one answered the door) and also mailed it to his address, after three unanswered phone calls. I'm not sure whether the time for answering has started after this or an actual proof of service (signed by Axl or someone on his behalf) is needed.

Yeah... Thanks for the link. I found some more (and the actual video, but I don't think I want to watch it).

I came across this article in The Times that draws a bizarre parallel between the current state of the Labour party and Chinese Democracy: https://archive.ph/aIk85

Let's not forget that this was in 1997. Things were still fluid about GN'R; Duff was still in the band and Slash, in interviews, didn't rule out the possibility of returning. So it would have been kind of logical for management and the label to think that it was just a temporary power play and stubbornness driven phase on Axl's part which would go nowhere, and since Axl couldn't be talked out of it, they would just let him try to do his thing and then Slash would be back - Duff probably expected/hoped for the same thing, too and that's why he stuck around for a while after Slash left. That doesn't mean that there was an elaborate "plan" for Axl to fail (it would have been too early for that anyway). It was probably just a very likely outcome in their minds. Also Geffen had not been absorbed by Interscope yet (that would happen next year and lead to Slash and Duff being dropped from the label as solo artists), so the label personnel was different.

I'd take at least some of the things Dave says with a grain of salt, for example the stuff about Axl wanting to put him in charge of the band. Plus some stuff he said matter-of-factly in the above interview about how the original GN'R was supposedly formed which just isn't true.

Here's what Dave said in the other interview: https://www.a-4-d.com/t5240-2020-10-18-12-09-2020-d-podcast-interviews-with-david-abbruzzese On talking to Axl on the phone: DA: "My lawyer and his lawyer were the same lawyer, blah blah blah... He had his guru looking at my pictures for a few years, I guess the time was right, so he asked my lawyer to ask me if I was interested in coming out. Then we spoke on the phone four or five nights a week for a couple of hours at a pop. [....] We did that for months on end. [...] It was cool. I mean, actually I considered him a friend. He was a fascinating dude, fun to talk to on the phone. I don’t think he did it very often back then - I don’t know if he does now. But it was cool. It was interesting. I felt good enough about it and excited about what he wanted to do with Guns N’ Roses. It was real intriguing and incredibly challenging, because he wanted the band to be bigger than it was, and it was like, “Wow. Okay. It’s gonna take some work.” [...] When I got fired from Pearl Jam, my manager just disappeared. You know, it was like this huge wall came up. [...] And so, thinking about entering back into that arena - like, okay, the other biggest band in the world - first thing is talking to the manager and him telling me “Well, you can’t talk to Axl. You’ve got to talk to me, and then I talk to Axl and he tells me, and then I talk...” and I was like, “eww”. So I got Axl’s phone number and I called him up. That was really funny. [...] His personal assistant - well, I got the number and, you know, good luck from the manager. Then I called and his assistant answered. I said, “Hi, it’s Dave Abbruzzese calling for Axl.” And it was just silence. She stuttered a little bit and said “Uh, hold on.” So I waited, you know, five minutes, ten minutes or so (laughs). And then it was like [in angry deep voice] “Hello!" Like, "Why are you calling me?!” (laughs). I said, “Hey Axl, it’s Dave. I wanted to see what was up. So are you gonna play some music?” And it was about 20 minutes later that it felt like he eased up and he wasn’t afraid anymore. [...] [...] He started asking me about white leather, if I’d be into it, and then... (laughs). [...] Well, I was just thinking maybe we’d make a record before we decided what I was going to be fucking wearing. You know what I mean? [...] Plus I wasn’t that interested in what he wanted me to wear, actually (laughs) [...] I was just enjoying [our conversations]... It’s like we were sharing opinions about things, you know, based on intimate things, but all in the context of just – I mean I just felt like we were being real. And we would talk about... he told me about things that no one – you know, that I’d heard the stories, but not the real story. You know what I mean?" On his audition and playing with Axl: DA: "But the band that was there when I showed up, like my audition - I just thought, you know, I’d heard these songs enough on the radio. I didn’t really like them that much – just like the Pearl Jam stuff; if I weren’t in the band I wouldn’t have listened to it. But I just figured I’d get it because, you know, as soon as that guitar part (?) - and I’m like, “Okay, great.” I bought a cowbell and everything. [....] I got there and Axl came in late, and then he just said – you know, this after we’d gotten to know each other fairly well. He came and told some jokes [...] I just remember that he was looking at me like this and he said, “I noticed you laughed at all my jokes.” The room got silent like the air left the room, the huge room. And I just said, “I don’t want to get fired.” [...] That broke the ice and then he said, “So why don’t you and Duff run down these songs?” Oh shit! “Just bass and drums.” [...] So we played and it was cool. But yeah, I expected to hear some of those guitar parts that were telling me what to do. But it worked out. It was really good. Then we started writing music that was nothing like Guns N’ Roses. It was me and Pod Boy doing a double drum thing, and guitarist from Nine Inch Nails, Robin Finck... Yeah, I mean the band was insane, but it certainly wouldn’t have been Guns N’ Roses. [...] Yeah, it was interesting. It was a trip. But he was really trying hard and he was at the rehearsals... yeah. [....] We would do these songs that were new with Pod Boy - you know, he is Nine Inch Nails in my opinion in that he’s programmed all those drums for all those years. And Robin Finck, the guitar player, he was in Cirque de Soleil when he came to us [...] it was mentioned of him, and it was like “Oh, absolutely.” And then when I met him I was like – I mean, it was the first time I’ve ever met someone in that format of presentation that was charismatic and you just... I mean, he was a star. You know, he was a fucking... Yeah, he came in, he’s like 6.5 .... no eyebrows... And when he put his guitar on, it was just like... His fashion, it was sick. It was off the charts. Very charismatic player, you know? And Pod was the same way, and Duff with that music was the same way. It was just a totally different thing. There’s so many amazing things, like the guy who Axl hired to put together this unbelievable guitar rig, because he decided he wanted to play guitar or something. It was Billy, who gave me a cassette and he’s like, “These are my songs. I’m trying to put together this thing, it’s called A Perfect Circle,” blah blah blah. So all these, like, it was really an interesting time, all the stuff that came out of that little Guns N’ Roses camp thing. Because, you know, when I left, Josh Freese came in and then Josh started working with Billy, and then the Perfect Circle thing formed and... Really cool stuff came out of all that. Then you go, “Oh, oh, oh.” I think he wanted to make a record and have an experience where he could look to the other guys and just go, “Pooh.” You know, “See, I told you I could.” [...]" On quitting and Axl's reaction: DA: "[...] But it was really a strange way of doing things, that whole trip. He wanted to just go down to Rio and, you know, “We could just go and play for a week, and make... and go make 25 million.” It didn’t matter. We could just go play as Guns N’ Roses for a week and that’s when I started thinking “hmm”. [...] And it just started hitting me really weird. Then the manager told me just to hang in there, because eventually he would be tired of it and hire the rest of the guys back, and it would be my end. That’s when I said I had to go. [...] Axl is just Axl. He’s a star. He’s who he is. I think that just the whole behind-the-scenes, how his manager told me just to hang in there, because Axl’s gonna burn out of this idea and then get Slash and everybody back, and that will be my end, and just like that kind of... It just hit me wrong. You know, when Pearl Jam - when we were first going through, it was like a really close-knit team, the crew and everybody. And yeah, I just can’t. [...] Well, what happened was, after we started working and everything, in front of everyone he said – and Duff was still in the band, Dizzy... He said, “Dave, I’m the captain of the ship.” You know, the name is his, the deal is his, all that stuff. [...] Yeah, he got all that stuff from the other guys. He bought – you know, he got total control of the name. [....] Yeah, there were a lot of lawsuits pending when he announced that he wanted – he was basically turning it over to me. He wanted to go under deck and he trusted me to steer the ship on course. It was a strange dynamic, because there was no management, there was no one involved to take all these egos and all these successful players - like Duff, I’m sure he was like, “What the fuck,” you know what I mean? - and get a conversation, all these things. So he was relying on me a lot. And when I decided that I couldn’t do it, that it wasn’t right - you know, that it was the opposite of what I needed to be doing with music – I sent it to him in a fax, because I wanted to make sure it was said right. Then, about four hours later, I got a call from Kim Neely from Rolling Stone in New York, and she said (laughs)... she asked if I was alright. I said yeah, you know, why wouldn’t I. She said she just got off the phone with Axl. Then he called me and, literally for two hours, screamed. I, like, put the phone down on the table; my partner Sherry and I, we just sat there. Two hours before I reached over and just hit off. Every other word was “fuck”, I was a dark lord sent to keep him from bringing light to the world... I mean, really intense. [....] I know he trusted me. [...] I didn’t know he would get... I didn’t expect him to blow out like that. I expected us to converse and, you know, I could’ve still been a part of it or whatever. [...] [....] No, there’s no way in hell that Axl would ever let anything I was a part of surface. [...] I bet if you mentioned my name you’d probably get fired. [...] I don’t know. I hope he’s not triggered by me. I mean, I wish our relationship would have continued. [...] Basically, if I got word that Axl wanted to say hello or whatever – I mean, we never really were like “Hey, how are you? How have things been?” We were leading up to something. So I don’t know how that would go. I think if I saw him, if I were in the same room, I would feel comfortable walking over and giving an embrace, you know? And he is really a big guy. I was kind of disappointed when I first met him, because he seemed too big to beat up."

In his other interviews Dave Abbruzzese didn't describe it so clearly as a plan, but more like something Doug Goldstein and the label expected to happen.

Two earlier interviews with Dave talking about Axl/GN'R (for those who haven't watched/read them): https://www.a-4-d.com/t5240-2020-10-18-12-09-2020-d-podcast-interviews-with-david-abbruzzese https://www.a-4-d.com/t8033-2023-02-06-2020-d-podcast-interview-with-david-abbruzzese

New interview: https://www.songfacts.com/blog/interviews/dave-abbruzzese-ex-pearl-jam The GN'R part: Songfacts: What do you recall about your experience working with Guns N' Roses? Abbruzzese: The Guns thing was tough. Axl [Rose] and I became familiar with one another through nightly phone calls for months before we actually met and played music together. It was a tough time for me because I had quite a bit of soul poisoning from the way my manager handled my termination from Pearl Jam. I was leery of entering the big machine again because of it. Things were moving along well until I spoke to the G n' R management regarding my opinion that the new music might be better suited to an Axl solo album rather than a G n' R album. Doug Smith [David probably means Doug Goldstein], the Guns' manager at the time, told me that the management and the label had a plan of letting the album we were making be the catalyst for getting Axl to reunite with Slash. The plan was to let him fail and the hope was that this failure would inspire him to reunite with Slash and get the big train back on the tracks. When I heard this I was forced to choose between informing Axl about it or just bowing out. I felt that if I told him of their plan it would destroy what little faith he had in the machine. So I opted to take one on the chin and sacrifice my new friendship for the sake of Axl's ability to continue to be a creative force. It was a difficult decision but ultimately one that I am glad I made. I love that guy and I didn't want to be responsible for ruining the chance of him and the band continuing to make music for their fans that had waited so patiently for so long for G n' R to get back to it.

Black Frog was founded in 1998 - that was when NuGnR started existing as a business.

It's possible in the case of one of them (Beta). In the case of Tom Zutaut, though, the specifics in the story he told are completely different from the story Axl told Rolling Stone.

The thread is supposed to be about some pictures that many fans have not seen before (although they were shared again recently) and would be curious about. However, pictures are not just "pictures" when there are stories on record involving the people depicted in them. A picture of Axl's stepfather can't be treated just as a rare and "cool" family picture as it inevitably will bring up the story involving him (just like a picture of Axl with Erin Everly, for example, will bring up the story of that relationship). This is definitely a very sensitive subject and there's a fine line that can easily be crossed. On one hand, abuse in various forms has been part of the history of GN'R and its members - because, even though they are not directly related to the music, they have affected the course of this band. Axl has been on record about being abused as a child. The subject of regression therapy was brought up in his interviews, he was confronted with it and gave his own answers about how he thought it worked for him. There have also been stories and allegations of abuse against Axl and other members of the band. These are all allegations made on public record by real people, not rumours based on anonymous sources. I think that merely mentioning or reminding what has been on record (in this case: what Axl, Beta, Tom Zutaut etc. have said) doesn't cross the line. On the other hand, touching upon these subjects on a message board even by just mentioning them is a slippery slope and the line is crossed when it triggers off comments that go down the rumour mill, make wild guess about sensational and morbid details, play armchair psychologist/psychiatrist making judgements about the "correct"/"expected" behavioral patterns or "diagnosing" people they don't know, etc. But it's also unavoidable that allegations of this nature raise questions and give rise to discussion, just like it has happened with the allegations against Axl with the Sheila Kennedy case being the most recent example. There we analyzed every word she said, raised questions... Sure, maybe it's not as extremely sensitive as a child abuse case and there's a lawsuit, so the discussion was as well related to how it may play out in court, but it's still an allegation of abuse and we still speculated about what really happened and to what extent she's telling the truth. I think that if we think we should completely ban discussion on these subjects as inappropriate/crossing the line, we should apply that to everything.

Yes, that's the story about being sexually abused by his biological father when he was two, which was the result of regression therapy. But there's a separate unconfirmed story about sexual abuse from his stepfather that Axl would have been old enough to have memories of without the help of regression therapy. That other story has not been made public by Axl - Axl has accused his stepfather only of physical abuse and of sexual abuse of his sister - but by other people who said that they heard it from him.