Obama urges economic fairness in State Of The Union

[metatron]

So did anyone else get a weird tingle up their spine upon hearing that Obama is urging for economic equality, thus effectively turning the United States into a socialist country. Few of you here would be rather thrilled, as I once would of, but growing up, I realize the fault of my ways. Before understanding how our economic system and politics works, I had some rather irrational views on the world, to the extent of almost being a Maoist. Through several years of a rigorous studying the subject, I've come out on the other end with a much better understanding.

The way socialism works is by giving ultimate power to a single individual or group, to do what is best for the community as a whole. To achieve this however, sacrifices must be made, and people may be sacrificed too, but it's all for the greater good of the community. It's the ends justifying the means. Bigger Government is not the answer. The 1% didn't pay little taxes, they made 18% of national income, and paid 27% of the taxes. Compared to the next highest bracket at 17%, I'd say they "Pay their fair share." What is wrong with big CEOs making all kinds of money? Should hard work and dedication not be rewarded? What better reward than financial compensation? The problem isn't Capitalism, it's crony capitalism. The Federal Reserve is the problem, and abolishing it would be a step in righting many wrongs over the last 100 years.

So, should Socialism be instilled in america?

[Ace Nova]

So did anyone else get a weird tingle up their spine upon hearing that Obama is urging for economic equality, thus effectively turning the United States into a socialist country. Few of you here would be rather thrilled, as I once would of, but growing up, I realize the fault of my ways. Before understanding how our economic system and politics works, I had some rather irrational views on the world, to the extent of almost being a Maoist. Through several years of a rigorous studying the subject, I've come out on the other end with a much better understanding.

The way socialism works is by giving ultimate power to a single individual or group, to do what is best for the community as a whole. To achieve this however, sacrifices must be made, and people may be sacrificed too, but it's all for the greater good of the community. It's the ends justifying the means. Bigger Government is not the answer. The 1% didn't pay little taxes, they made 18% of national income, and paid 27% of the taxes. Compared to the next highest bracket at 17%, I'd say they "Pay their fair share." What is wrong with big CEOs making all kinds of money? Should hard work and dedication not be rewarded? What better reward than financial compensation? The problem isn't Capitalism, it's crony capitalism. The Federal Reserve is the problem, and abolishing it would be a step in righting many wrongs over the last 100 years.

So, should Socialism be instilled in america?

lol

So you think it's ok that Warren Buffet paid a smaller % of taxes that his secretary? He wants to eliminate the loopholes and phony tax credits that the top 2% get.

And no, I don't think that hard work and dedication should be penalized, that's the biggest amount of typical republican BULLSHIT that I've ever heard.

You don't think that the guy driving the trash truck for a living doesn't work his ass off for a living making ends meet???

Statements like that sicken me.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Kasanova King

[metatron]

Buffet is a tool. He's talking about wall street investments, which have a flat rate of 17% interest on them. Anyone can buy and sell stocks, and make that sort of equity, it's the people who choose not too.

Also, I do believe he shouldn't be paying much in taxes, but neither should any of us. We are giving too much money, and too much power to our government, who are then doing whatever they want, regardless of how the American People feel and want. The power needs to be given back to the people, and you do so by letting them have their tax dollars, and use it to personally finance whatever services suits them best.

Edited January 25, 2012 by metatron

[Ace Nova]

Buffet is a tool. He's talking about wall street investments, which have a flat rate of 17% interest on them. Anyone can buy and sell stocks, and make that sort of equity, it's the people who choose not too.

Also, I do believe he shouldn't be paying much in taxes, but neither should any of us. We are giving too much money, and too much power to our government, who are then doing whatever they want, regardless of how the American People feel and want. The power needs to be given back to the people, and you do so by letting them have their tax dollars, and use it to personally finance whatever services suits them best.

So you are calling someone you just defended as being hard working and dedicated in your previous post a "tool" now....interesting....so which one is it?

How is taking away from social security, not having medical insurance, and pulling benefits away from veterans, etc. restoring power to the people???

The middle class's taxes are currently among the lowest they've been in history. You really have no idea of what you are talking about, do you?

[metatron]

Buffet is a tool. He's talking about wall street investments, which have a flat rate of 17% interest on them. Anyone can buy and sell stocks, and make that sort of equity, it's the people who choose not too.

Also, I do believe he shouldn't be paying much in taxes, but neither should any of us. We are giving too much money, and too much power to our government, who are then doing whatever they want, regardless of how the American People feel and want. The power needs to be given back to the people, and you do so by letting them have their tax dollars, and use it to personally finance whatever services suits them best.

So you are calling someone you just defended as being hard working and dedicated in your previous post a "tool" now....interesting....so which one is it?

How is taking away from social security, not having medical insurance, and pulling benefits away from veterans, etc. restoring power to the people???

The middle class's taxes are currently among the lowest they've been in history. You really have no idea of what you are talking about, do you?

Where did I specifically mention Warren Buffet or defend him? Anyone who is rich, and whines like a little bitch about it, is a tool. Plain and simple.

Benefits for the Veterans will have to be left in place for the current generation, guaranteed medical loans from the government keep prices artificially high.

The bottom 46% of American's don't pay any Taxes what so ever. Infact, they benefit from government hand outs. The "evil" 1% makes 73 cents on the dollar, compared to the lowest salaried income that pays taxes at 84 cents on the dollar. More so, do you really want to give more power to corrupt government?

What about the Fed, what is your opinion on that?

[Ace Nova]

Buffet is a tool. He's talking about wall street investments, which have a flat rate of 17% interest on them. Anyone can buy and sell stocks, and make that sort of equity, it's the people who choose not too.

Also, I do believe he shouldn't be paying much in taxes, but neither should any of us. We are giving too much money, and too much power to our government, who are then doing whatever they want, regardless of how the American People feel and want. The power needs to be given back to the people, and you do so by letting them have their tax dollars, and use it to personally finance whatever services suits them best.

So you are calling someone you just defended as being hard working and dedicated in your previous post a "tool" now....interesting....so which one is it?

How is taking away from social security, not having medical insurance, and pulling benefits away from veterans, etc. restoring power to the people???

The middle class's taxes are currently among the lowest they've been in history. You really have no idea of what you are talking about, do you?

Where did I specifically mention Warren Buffet or defend him? Anyone who is rich, and whines like a little bitch about it, is a tool. Plain and simple.

Benefits for the Veterans will have to be left in place for the current generation, guaranteed medical loans from the government keep prices artificially high.

The bottom 46% of American's don't pay any Taxes what so ever. Infact, they benefit from government hand outs. The "evil" 1% makes 73 cents on the dollar, compared to the lowest salaried income that pays taxes at 84 cents on the dollar. More so, do you really want to give more power to corrupt government?

What about the Fed, what is your opinion on that?

I don't have time to give a detailed response now but I will before the end of the day.

[Ace Nova]

Buffet is a tool. He's talking about wall street investments, which have a flat rate of 17% interest on them. Anyone can buy and sell stocks, and make that sort of equity, it's the people who choose not too.

Also, I do believe he shouldn't be paying much in taxes, but neither should any of us. We are giving too much money, and too much power to our government, who are then doing whatever they want, regardless of how the American People feel and want. The power needs to be given back to the people, and you do so by letting them have their tax dollars, and use it to personally finance whatever services suits them best.

So you are calling someone you just defended as being hard working and dedicated in your previous post a "tool" now....interesting....so which one is it?

How is taking away from social security, not having medical insurance, and pulling benefits away from veterans, etc. restoring power to the people???

The middle class's taxes are currently among the lowest they've been in history. You really have no idea of what you are talking about, do you?

Where did I specifically mention Warren Buffet or defend him? Anyone who is rich, and whines like a little bitch about it, is a tool. Plain and simple.

Benefits for the Veterans will have to be left in place for the current generation, guaranteed medical loans from the government keep prices artificially high.

The bottom 46% of American's don't pay any Taxes what so ever. Infact, they benefit from government hand outs. The "evil" 1% makes 73 cents on the dollar, compared to the lowest salaried income that pays taxes at 84 cents on the dollar. More so, do you really want to give more power to corrupt government?

What about the Fed, what is your opinion on that?

You asked why should hard work and dedication be penalized, well, I am relatively sure that Warren Buffet would easily fit in that category.

No, what keeps health insurance high is not regulating a "for profit" industry in health insurance companies. Most of them are publicly traded companies that need to meet stock holder expectation in terms of profit, growth, etc.

Your statements contradict each other. How can the bottom 46% not pay any taxes when many of them will fall into that "lowest salaried" income bracket, in which you later state pays taxes on 84 cents on the dollar. So which one is it? No tax or on 84 cents on the dollar?

The Fed? What about it?

Edited January 25, 2012 by Kasanova King

[metatron]

Buffet is a tool. He's talking about wall street investments, which have a flat rate of 17% interest on them. Anyone can buy and sell stocks, and make that sort of equity, it's the people who choose not too.

Also, I do believe he shouldn't be paying much in taxes, but neither should any of us. We are giving too much money, and too much power to our government, who are then doing whatever they want, regardless of how the American People feel and want. The power needs to be given back to the people, and you do so by letting them have their tax dollars, and use it to personally finance whatever services suits them best.

So you are calling someone you just defended as being hard working and dedicated in your previous post a "tool" now....interesting....so which one is it?

How is taking away from social security, not having medical insurance, and pulling benefits away from veterans, etc. restoring power to the people???

The middle class's taxes are currently among the lowest they've been in history. You really have no idea of what you are talking about, do you?

Where did I specifically mention Warren Buffet or defend him? Anyone who is rich, and whines like a little bitch about it, is a tool. Plain and simple.

Benefits for the Veterans will have to be left in place for the current generation, guaranteed medical loans from the government keep prices artificially high.

The bottom 46% of American's don't pay any Taxes what so ever. Infact, they benefit from government hand outs. The "evil" 1% makes 73 cents on the dollar, compared to the lowest salaried income that pays taxes at 84 cents on the dollar. More so, do you really want to give more power to corrupt government?

What about the Fed, what is your opinion on that?

You asked why should hard work and dedication be penalized, well, I am relatively sure that Warren Buffet would easily fit in that category.

No, what keeps health insurance high is not regulating a "for profit" industry in health insurance companies. Most of them are publicly traded companies that need to meet stock holder expectation in terms of profit, growth, etc.

Your statements contradict each other. How can the bottom 46% not pay any taxes when many of them will fall into that "lowest salaried" income bracket, in which you later state pays taxes on 84 cents on the dollar. So which one is it? No tax or 84 cents on the dollar?

The Fed? What about it?

I'm not sure you understand how supply and demand work. There's a combination of reason, but they can keep that price artificially high because of government intervention. If government weren't handing out loans, and it was a true free market, hospitals would compete to offer the best doctors at the most competitive prices.

You misunderstood me, 46% indeed don't pay taxes, what I meant was the lowest income that got taxed, which was 35,000$ a year income and more.

As for the fed, it doesn't bother you a non-government agency is in control of creating your money, and at whatever rate they feel like? Do you understand how inflation works?

Edited January 25, 2012 by metatron

[Dazey]

I LOVE America and Americans in general! I really do! I'm going back again this year and hoping to move there eventually but you guys really haven't the faintest fucking idea by and large what the hell socialism is! Not in the slightest! The US is still by a very long way the least socialist country in the world and just because somebody suggests levelling the playing field a little in favour of the little guy doesn't mean they're knocking one out over pictures of Stalin!

Edited January 25, 2012 by Dazey Does Dallas

[st0n3r]

I LOVE America and Americans in general! I really do! I'm going back again this year and hoping to move there eventually but you guys really haven't the faintest fucking idea by and large what the hell socialism is! Not in the slightest! The US is still by a very long way the least socialist country in the world and just because somebody suggests levelling the playing field a little in favour of the little guy doesn't mean they're knocking one out over pictures of Stalin!

I said the exact same thing in antoher topic:

You should all vote Ron Paul. Obama's "change" seems to be utter nonsense. He is only a slightly different version of any republican. I also find it laughable that you people call him a socialist. He is not a socialist at all. If you want to experience real socialism, visit Europe.

There is nothing wrong with a system were the broadest shoulders carry the largest weight. There is nothing socialist about that. It is common sense!

Edited January 25, 2012 by st0n3r

[Dazey]

I LOVE America and Americans in general! I really do! I'm going back again this year and hoping to move there eventually but you guys really haven't the faintest fucking idea by and large what the hell socialism is! Not in the slightest! The US is still by a very long way the least socialist country in the world and just because somebody suggests levelling the playing field a little in favour of the little guy doesn't mean they're knocking one out over pictures of Stalin!

I said the exact same thing in antoher topic:

You should all vote Ron Paul. Obama's "change" seems to be utter nonsense. He is only a slightly different version of any republican. I also find it laughable that you people call him a socialist. He is not a socialist at all. If you want to experience real socialism, visit Europe.

There is nothing wrong with a system were the broadest shoulders carry the largest weight. There is nothing socialist about that. It is common sense!

We don't even have what I would call "real" socialism over here in a lot of places! I wouldn't call the UK a socialist country for instance. I mean we have to biggest capitalist financial centre in the world along with Wall Street in the Square Mile in London so we hardly a bunch of dirty commies.

[st0n3r]

I LOVE America and Americans in general! I really do! I'm going back again this year and hoping to move there eventually but you guys really haven't the faintest fucking idea by and large what the hell socialism is! Not in the slightest! The US is still by a very long way the least socialist country in the world and just because somebody suggests levelling the playing field a little in favour of the little guy doesn't mean they're knocking one out over pictures of Stalin!

I said the exact same thing in antoher topic:

You should all vote Ron Paul. Obama's "change" seems to be utter nonsense. He is only a slightly different version of any republican. I also find it laughable that you people call him a socialist. He is not a socialist at all. If you want to experience real socialism, visit Europe.

There is nothing wrong with a system were the broadest shoulders carry the largest weight. There is nothing socialist about that. It is common sense!

We don't even have what I would call "real" socialism over here in a lot of places! I wouldn't call the UK a socialist country for instance. I mean we have to biggest capitalist financial centre in the world along with Wall Street in the Square Mile in London so we hardly a bunch of dirty commies.

Well, the problem is that nowadays, wether a socialist party or a liberal party is in power doesn't matter, since nothing significant will change. Sure, one may give a bit more welfare than another or so, but in the end, they both are part of the same 'system'. IN the USA, this is even clearer than in Europe though. Wether you vote republican or democrat, it doesn't really seem to matter. Especially when you talk about the USA foreign policy for example.

Ugh, I've been drinking so I shouldn't get into this now.

Edited January 25, 2012 by st0n3r

[Ace Nova]

I'm not sure you understand how supply and demand work. There's a combination of reason, but they can keep that price artificially high because of government intervention. If government weren't handing out loans, and it was a true free market, hospitals would compete to offer the best doctors at the most competitive prices.

You misunderstood me, 46% indeed don't pay taxes, what I meant was the lowest income that got taxed, which was 35,000$ a year income and more.

As for the fed, it doesn't bother you a non-government agency is in control of creating your money, and at whatever rate they feel like? Do you understand how inflation works?

No, not really...maybe for a short time but eventually, like you say, supply and demand will cause them to be competitive. As for the hospitals, that's a different entity and not really what I was referring to. A lot of Hospitals are non profit to begin with, so regulating them would not be as important.

Ok, so then you are basically saying that the higher income groups pay less taxes.( primarily because of loopholes and tax credits). You are agreeing with Obama with statement.

So now you want a government agency controlling the currency vs. a non government agency? You realize that goes against everything else you are saying, right?

[Dazey]

No, not really...maybe for a short time but eventually, like you say, supply and demand will cause them to be competitive. As for the hospitals, that's a different entity and not really what I was referring to. A lot of Hospitals are non profit to begin with, so regulating them would not be as important.

Hospitals and healthcare should not be primarily run for profit, period and insurance companies should be taken out of the loop completely as far as decisions on treatment are concerned.

[metatron]

I'm not sure you understand how supply and demand work. There's a combination of reason, but they can keep that price artificially high because of government intervention. If government weren't handing out loans, and it was a true free market, hospitals would compete to offer the best doctors at the most competitive prices.

You misunderstood me, 46% indeed don't pay taxes, what I meant was the lowest income that got taxed, which was 35,000$ a year income and more.

As for the fed, it doesn't bother you a non-government agency is in control of creating your money, and at whatever rate they feel like? Do you understand how inflation works?

No, not really...maybe for a short time but eventually, like you say, supply and demand will cause them to be competitive. As for the hospitals, that's a different entity and not really what I was referring to. A lot of Hospitals are non profit to begin with, so regulating them would not be as important.

Ok, so then you are basically saying that the higher income groups pay less taxes.( primarily because of loopholes and tax credits). You are agreeing with Obama with statement.

So now you want a government agency controlling the currency vs. a non government agency? You realize that goes against everything else you are saying, right?

No, The higher income group pays more taxes, perhaps this will make you understand what I'm saying better. By the way, when the taxes were at their highest, there was no actual legislation put in place that forced you to pay your taxes until the 70's when Nixon was in office.

Government control over the printing of money is important when Fiat money is involved. If our dollar was based on Gold or Silver, as it had been for nearly 3000 years, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. The first great depression was only allowed to happen because of the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, with a gold standard, it would of never happened.

[metatron]

No, not really...maybe for a short time but eventually, like you say, supply and demand will cause them to be competitive. As for the hospitals, that's a different entity and not really what I was referring to. A lot of Hospitals are non profit to begin with, so regulating them would not be as important.

Hospitals and healthcare should not be primarily run for profit, period and insurance companies should be taken out of the loop completely as far as decisions on treatment are concerned.

I get treated a whole lot better in many shopping establishments then I ever do in a hospital. Because you are a government peon, you are treated as such. If you are a customer, you're money will actually have a voice. Just saying.

[Graeme]

No, not really...maybe for a short time but eventually, like you say, supply and demand will cause them to be competitive. As for the hospitals, that's a different entity and not really what I was referring to. A lot of Hospitals are non profit to begin with, so regulating them would not be as important.

Hospitals and healthcare should not be primarily run for profit, period and insurance companies should be taken out of the loop completely as far as decisions on treatment are concerned.

I get treated a whole lot better in many shopping establishments then I ever do in a hospital. Because you are a government peon, you are treated as such. If you are a customer, you're money will actually have a voice. Just saying.

Nationalised healthcare is not perfect, no system is... of course you're going to have waiting lists etc. But the fact of the matter is (here at least) it is a lifeline for many people and it puts a lot of minds at rest. I cannot value highly enough the fact that if I start experiencing health problems I can go to a doctor and don't have to worry about footing the bill. My big cousin recently nearly lost his foot due to gangrene. It was caused by something extremely simple; he's diabetic, was on holiday and got cuts on both his feet, dressed them both the same way and one healed up whilst the other didn't. It deteriorated and he was forced to go into Hospital on Hallowe'en night, he only got out last week after several operations... Can you imagine the bills he would be facing on top of being out of work for months because of one cut gone wrong? I think it's infinitely better that there was a safety net there for people like him... Turning things like health into commodities to be bought and sold in a system like capitalism where a small amount of people get very rich off the back of many seems insane to me.

Scotland's perhaps the most left-leaning part of the UK (part of the reason there's a huge debate about whether or not we leave the UK is that their government's too Conservative for us) but I think you'd struggle to find very many people here at all who grudge a penny they pay for the NHS for what it saves them in the long run. However, even we're not "socialist" more "social democrat" in the vein of the Scandinavian countries... This is why when Americans use the word Socialist to describe Barack Obama it's so funny it's almost sad, you will never get anything remotely approaching socialism in America, they have far too many misguided, selfish people for that. God forbid someone tries to make it a bit easier for the huge amounts of people who aren't very rich over there... Here's for honest poverty.

[Ace Nova]

No, not really...maybe for a short time but eventually, like you say, supply and demand will cause them to be competitive. As for the hospitals, that's a different entity and not really what I was referring to. A lot of Hospitals are non profit to begin with, so regulating them would not be as important.

Hospitals and healthcare should not be primarily run for profit, period and insurance companies should be taken out of the loop completely as far as decisions on treatment are concerned.

I don't really disagree with that.

[Ace Nova]

Government control over the printing of money is important when Fiat money is involved. If our dollar was based on Gold or Silver, as it had been for nearly 3000 years, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. The first great depression was only allowed to happen because of the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, with a gold standard, it would of never happened.

All your chart really shows is that taxes across the board (like I said) are the lowest in history. If anything else, it also shows how the highest earning people have lost almost HALF their tax burden. It's almost as if you're making the same argument as President Obama.

Uhm, the U.S. had the gold standard before and during the great depression. Your post doesn't make sense.

I get treated a whole lot better in many shopping establishments then I ever do in a hospital. Because you are a government peon, you are treated as such. If you are a customer, you're money will actually have a voice. Just saying.

I really don't understand where you're going at with this....it's almost as if your not happy with the current system - WHICH STILL BASICALLY OPERATES IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR. The Obama plan won't fully take affect until a few more years.

No, not really...maybe for a short time but eventually, like you say, supply and demand will cause them to be competitive. As for the hospitals, that's a different entity and not really what I was referring to. A lot of Hospitals are non profit to begin with, so regulating them would not be as important.

Hospitals and healthcare should not be primarily run for profit, period and insurance companies should be taken out of the loop completely as far as decisions on treatment are concerned.

I get treated a whole lot better in many shopping establishments then I ever do in a hospital. Because you are a government peon, you are treated as such. If you are a customer, you're money will actually have a voice. Just saying.

Nationalised healthcare is not perfect, no system is... of course you're going to have waiting lists etc. But the fact of the matter is (here at least) it is a lifeline for many people and it puts a lot of minds at rest. I cannot value highly enough the fact that if I start experiencing health problems I can go to a doctor and don't have to worry about footing the bill. My big cousin recently nearly lost his foot due to gangrene. It was caused by something extremely simple; he's diabetic, was on holiday and got cuts on both his feet, dressed them both the same way and one healed up whilst the other didn't. It deteriorated and he was forced to go into Hospital on Hallowe'en night, he only got out last week after several operations... Can you imagine the bills he would be facing on top of being out of work for months because of one cut gone wrong? I think it's infinitely better that there was a safety net there for people like him... Turning things like health into commodities to be bought and sold in a system like capitalism where a small amount of people get very rich off the back of many seems insane to me.

Scotland's perhaps the most left-leaning part of the UK (part of the reason there's a huge debate about whether or not we leave the UK is that their government's too Conservative for us) but I think you'd struggle to find very many people here at all who grudge a penny they pay for the NHS for what it saves them in the long run. However, even we're not "socialist" more "social democrat" in the vein of the Scandinavian countries... This is why when Americans use the word Socialist to describe Barack Obama it's so funny it's almost sad, you will never get anything remotely approaching socialism in America, they have far too many misguided, selfish people for that. God forbid someone tries to make it a bit easier for the huge amounts of people who aren't very rich over there... Here's for honest poverty.

Some very good points.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Kasanova King

[Graeme]

This seemed relevant

[metatron]

This seemed relevant

age 45, taxpayer since 14, self employed 21 years! This is the equipment I use to produce, paid for by my production. I produce out of obligation to myself, my customers also benefit from that when I share with them the fruits of my labor. They in turn, validate their worthiness of said fruits by compensation.

Some say all they want is access to the same opportunity, brother, it has been yours to take at any point along the way! Nobody will hand it to you, you will have to work for it and trust me, it will taste much sweeter after you have worked for it! I get filthy black every day from my work but I would trade that for nothing…. I am the 53%

Dave

Enjoy the inflating cost of health care.

Edited January 26, 2012 by metatron

[Graeme]

This seemed relevant

age 45, taxpayer since 14, self employed 21 years! This is the equipment I use to produce, paid for by my production. I produce out of obligation to myself, my customers also benefit from that when I share with them the fruits of my labor. They in turn, validate their worthiness of said fruits by compensation.

Some say all they want is access to the same opportunity, brother, it has been yours to take at any point along the way! Nobody will hand it to you, you will have to work for it and trust me, it will taste much sweeter after you have worked for it! I get filthy black every day from my work but I would trade that for nothing…. I am the 53%

Dave

Enjoy the inflating cost of health care.

You mean the wee-bit-income-proportional deduction as opposed to being landed with an absolutely enormous bill in the event of an accident, or a severe illness for which I am not to blame? As well as the knowledge that that money goes towards helping people like my Gran, my big cousin or those in similar situations (yes, you could bring up methodone for recovering smack-addicts etc. but one such example does not invalidate the entire principle) Thanks. I'm sure I will.

Also, I fail to see how your photograph functions in a dialogue with mine... Unless you are seriously recommending "get a better job" as a cure for tumours in the uterus.

[metatron]

This seemed relevant

age 45, taxpayer since 14, self employed 21 years! This is the equipment I use to produce, paid for by my production. I produce out of obligation to myself, my customers also benefit from that when I share with them the fruits of my labor. They in turn, validate their worthiness of said fruits by compensation.

Some say all they want is access to the same opportunity, brother, it has been yours to take at any point along the way! Nobody will hand it to you, you will have to work for it and trust me, it will taste much sweeter after you have worked for it! I get filthy black every day from my work but I would trade that for nothing…. I am the 53%

Dave

Enjoy the inflating cost of health care.

You mean the wee-bit-income-proportional deduction as opposed to being landed with an absolutely enormous bill in the event of an accident, or a severe illness for which I am not to blame? As well as the knowledge that that money goes towards helping people like my Gran, my big cousin or those in similar situations (yes, you could bring up methodone for recovering smack-addicts etc. but one such example does not invalidate the entire principle) Thanks. I'm sure I will.

Also, I fail to see how your photograph functions in a dialogue with mine... Unless you are seriously recommending "get a better job" as a cure for tumours in the uterus.

Where did her income go? Why hasn't she saved anything in case of such a circumstance? In this commercial society, that's one of the many problems we are facing these days. I suppose to better understsand what I'm refering to you'd have to read Friedrich Hayek's "The Road To Serfdom."

[metatron]

The problem is a majority of you here seem to lack a great understand of the economic system and the nitty gritty of how it works. Once you start diving deep into it, you understand why capitalism is the only structure that is adaptable to humans. Socialism will always lead to fascism, always.

[Graeme]

The problem is a majority of you here seem to lack a great understand of the economic system and the nitty gritty of how it works. Once you start diving deep into it, you understand why capitalism is the only structure that is adaptable to humans. Socialism will always lead to fascism, always.

This is exactly the problem with Capitalism, it assumes that it is natural. Other systems have functioned and continue to do so around the world... Of course when you look at "the economic system and the nitty gritty of how it works" you'll see a Capitalist solution because Capitalism was taken by bodies like the British Empire and exported worldwide until it became the system by which the entire global economy is run. There is no other form of economics. However, there are other ways of living and there are certainly other ways of viewing access to and control over resources, just as there were before Capitalism came into being...

Common right, for example; in India, forests were deemed property of anyone who wished to use them but this was regulated by a series of laws operated by farmers, religious institutions etc. During British rule they attempted to privatise access to the forests for logging etc. The resistance they faced was so fierce that they couldn't enforce the laws. Finally in the late '00s the movement to have the common right restored got it passed in the Indian parliament and this wasn't a small-time bunch of yokels, we're talking over 100 million people using a resource without any of them "owning" it. This can be expanded beyond the purely agrarian as well, look up the resistance to the privatisation of water in Bolivia etc.

There are other ways of doing things and; first and foremost to deny that there is a middle ground between laissez-faire and socialism is delusional: Therefore, to say that anything other than pure free-market neoliberalism will only result in fascism is ludicrous. Look at Sweden, Norway and Denmark, highest human development index (i.e. living standards) on the planet, not very fascist either. Also, now the whole "tragedy of the commons" argument has been rendered bullshit, I see no reason why this couldn't be applied to other resources worldwide other than individual greed.