Interesting--Alan Niven wanted to fire Axl right after AFD came out

[Guest NGOG]

It has been extensively documented on this and other websites that Chinese Democracy has NOT sold anywhere near 5 million. Even the 3 million is a wishful mark.

Could you offer these clinical stats? Surely would be quick to fire them out if they were, as you say, so damning and credible? How can you cite unofficial fansites, which boast cretins like Rustycage, as evidence of Chinese Democracy's sales?

Edited March 20, 2013 by NGOG

[Guest NGOG]

How can you fire the star factor? How can that be deemed a viable move? Slash was talented with hooks and riffs, but the band would never have amounted to anything outside of the Strip without Axl.

Funny.

Think of all the bands that did make it out of the sunset strip. You are saying that Slash, Duff and Izzy weren't a talented enough group to pick a new singer and make it as far as bands like Skid Row, Motley Crue, Warrant, Ratt, Poison, etc.

And the only reason they were successful with Velvet Revolver was because for the second time in their career they got lucky with a dynamic singer?

And, since VR was more successful than Axl's vision of GnR, are you implying that Scott Weidland is a better frontman than Axl?

Velvet Revolver was made possible by the success those players enjoyed with GN'R. The supergroup was lucrative to people like Scott Weiland because of the GN'R pedigree. The only person you could say with confidence could have enjoyed relative success without Guns N' Roses would have been Slash. That is proven by the irrelevance of Duff and Matt musically outside of that project.

Izzy and Axl were a creative pair certainly. But Izzy needed Axl more than Axl needed Izzy and that's the reality. Where is Izzy today? Reappearing with Axl and new GN'R.

And where is Axl and new Guns N' Roses today? Touring the hits Izzy helped writing.

On tour playing to very large audiences in various parts of the globe. With a 5 mill+ record to boast in a world of MP3s.

It's silly to believe Izzy wrote the setlist GN'R play. He probably contributed a lot to parts of the song catalogue. Should Trent Reznor stop playing the NIN material which featured players like Robin Finck when that project start afresh later this year? No because it's his material too. Slash plays GN'R songs with Izzy credits. If you're successful at playing the old material why stop?

It has never been verified that ChiDem sold more than 3 million units.....still excellent but not 5 million as you claim........

I think we can assume, with credibility, that since its release in 2008, pre-repeated tours, Chinese Democracy has sold in excess of 5 million units.

An assumption is not fact and actually we can't as there is plenty of evidence which has been posted on this forum to dispute your assumption...nobody has ever been able to provide citations to prove CHiDem sold more than 3-3.5 million copies...If you have it lets see it...........

Where is this plentiful evidence? I hope you are not referring to the investigation of Use Your Delusion 1?

It's even established in social media that Chinese Democracy sold approx 5 million units - 'The album has since sold more than five million copies worldwide'

[classicrawker]

How can you fire the star factor? How can that be deemed a viable move? Slash was talented with hooks and riffs, but the band would never have amounted to anything outside of the Strip without Axl.

Funny.

Think of all the bands that did make it out of the sunset strip. You are saying that Slash, Duff and Izzy weren't a talented enough group to pick a new singer and make it as far as bands like Skid Row, Motley Crue, Warrant, Ratt, Poison, etc.

And the only reason they were successful with Velvet Revolver was because for the second time in their career they got lucky with a dynamic singer?

And, since VR was more successful than Axl's vision of GnR, are you implying that Scott Weidland is a better frontman than Axl?

Velvet Revolver was made possible by the success those players enjoyed with GN'R. The supergroup was lucrative to people like Scott Weiland because of the GN'R pedigree. The only person you could say with confidence could have enjoyed relative success without Guns N' Roses would have been Slash. That is proven by the irrelevance of Duff and Matt musically outside of that project.

Izzy and Axl were a creative pair certainly. But Izzy needed Axl more than Axl needed Izzy and that's the reality. Where is Izzy today? Reappearing with Axl and new GN'R.

And where is Axl and new Guns N' Roses today? Touring the hits Izzy helped writing.

On tour playing to very large audiences in various parts of the globe. With a 5 mill+ record to boast in a world of MP3s.

It's silly to believe Izzy wrote the setlist GN'R play. He probably contributed a lot to parts of the song catalogue. Should Trent Reznor stop playing the NIN material which featured players like Robin Finck when that project start afresh later this year? No because it's his material too. Slash plays GN'R songs with Izzy credits. If you're successful at playing the old material why stop?

It has never been verified that ChiDem sold more than 3 million units.....still excellent but not 5 million as you claim........

I think we can assume, with credibility, that since its release in 2008, pre-repeated tours, Chinese Democracy has sold in excess of 5 million units.

An assumption is not fact and actually we can't as there is plenty of evidence which has been posted on this forum to dispute your assumption...nobody has ever been able to provide citations to prove CHiDem sold more than 3-3.5 million copies...If you have it lets see it...........

Where is this plentiful evidence? I hope you are not referring to the investigation of Use Your Delusion 1?

It's even established in social media that Chinese Democracy sold approx 5 million units - 'The album has since sold more than five million copies worldwide'

Myself and others have run all the available numbers and explained why it is doubtful that it sold more than 3--3.5million units which I will post later as I am at work and the info is on my home computer.

Social media? SO you base you beleive on an article written on some obscure business website? and where is the person who wrote that article coming up with that number? there is nothing behind it..........

[izzydoezit]

I was about to reply to NGOG up until I read his link with his 'evidence'... After that I thought it is futile...

[Apollo]

How can you fire the star factor? How can that be deemed a viable move? Slash was talented with hooks and riffs, but the band would never have amounted to anything outside of the Strip without Axl.

Funny.

Think of all the bands that did make it out of the sunset strip. You are saying that Slash, Duff and Izzy weren't a talented enough group to pick a new singer and make it as far as bands like Skid Row, Motley Crue, Warrant, Ratt, Poison, etc.

And the only reason they were successful with Velvet Revolver was because for the second time in their career they got lucky with a dynamic singer?

And, since VR was more successful than Axl's vision of GnR, are you implying that Scott Weidland is a better frontman than Axl?

Velvet Revolver was made possible by the success those players enjoyed with GN'R. The supergroup was lucrative to people like Scott Weiland because of the GN'R pedigree. The only person you could say with confidence could have enjoyed relative success without Guns N' Roses would have been Slash. That is proven by the irrelevance of Duff and Matt musically outside of that project.

Izzy and Axl were a creative pair certainly. But Izzy needed Axl more than Axl needed Izzy and that's the reality. Where is Izzy today? Reappearing with Axl and new GN'R.

And where is Axl and new Guns N' Roses today? Touring the hits Izzy helped writing.

On tour playing to very large audiences in various parts of the globe. With a 5 mill+ record to boast in a world of MP3s.

It's silly to believe Izzy wrote the setlist GN'R play. He probably contributed a lot to parts of the song catalogue. Should Trent Reznor stop playing the NIN material which featured players like Robin Finck when that project start afresh later this year? No because it's his material too. Slash plays GN'R songs with Izzy credits. If you're successful at playing the old material why stop?

It has never been verified that ChiDem sold more than 3 million units.....still excellent but not 5 million as you claim........

I think we can assume, with credibility, that since its release in 2008, pre-repeated tours, Chinese Democracy has sold in excess of 5 million units.

Unfortunately that isn't the case. About a year ago somebody actually did the math and it just doesn't work out. I think they had a confirmed number of albums sold for the first year or two and everything after that has been speculation. I don't recall their exact method of tracking the numbers, but I think it was as simple as dividing the total sales by months of release and coming up with an average number of units the album would have moved each month. To achieve the numbers to reach five million, CD would have been charting every month for the past four years. Which it hasn't.

If it sold 2 million the first year, that means it would have sold 3 million the following three years. People really think CD is selling a million copies a year? Why aren't we seeing those numbers on ANY of the charts that rank album sales? Is it because those people are all against Axl Rose?/

[Guest bellastar2355]

How can you fire the star factor? How can that be deemed a viable move? Slash was talented with hooks and riffs, but the band would never have amounted to anything outside of the Strip without Axl.

Funny.

Think of all the bands that did make it out of the sunset strip. You are saying that Slash, Duff and Izzy weren't a talented enough group to pick a new singer and make it as far as bands like Skid Row, Motley Crue, Warrant, Ratt, Poison, etc.

And the only reason they were successful with Velvet Revolver was because for the second time in their career they got lucky with a dynamic singer?

And, since VR was more successful than Axl's vision of GnR, are you implying that Scott Weidland is a better frontman than Axl?

Velvet Revolver was made possible by the success those players enjoyed with GN'R. The supergroup was lucrative to people like Scott Weiland because of the GN'R pedigree. The only person you could say with confidence could have enjoyed relative success without Guns N' Roses would have been Slash. That is proven by the irrelevance of Duff and Matt musically outside of that project.

Izzy and Axl were a creative pair certainly. But Izzy needed Axl more than Axl needed Izzy and that's the reality. Where is Izzy today? Reappearing with Axl and new GN'R.

And where is Axl and new Guns N' Roses today? Touring the hits Izzy helped writing.

On tour playing to very large audiences in various parts of the globe. With a 5 mill+ record to boast in a world of MP3s.

It's silly to believe Izzy wrote the setlist GN'R play. He probably contributed a lot to parts of the song catalogue. Should Trent Reznor stop playing the NIN material which featured players like Robin Finck when that project start afresh later this year? No because it's his material too. Slash plays GN'R songs with Izzy credits. If you're successful at playing the old material why stop?

It has never been verified that ChiDem sold more than 3 million units.....still excellent but not 5 million as you claim........

I think we can assume, with credibility, that since its release in 2008, pre-repeated tours, Chinese Democracy has sold in excess of 5 million units.

Unfortunately that isn't the case. About a year ago somebody actually did the math and it just doesn't work out. I think they had a confirmed number of albums sold for the first year or two and everything after that has been speculation. I don't recall their exact method of tracking the numbers, but I think it was as simple as dividing the total sales by months of release and coming up with an average number of units the album would have moved each month. To achieve the numbers to reach five million, CD would have been charting every month for the past four years. Which it hasn't.

If it sold 2 million the first year, that means it would have sold 3 million the following three years. People really think CD is selling a million copies a year? Why aren't we seeing those numbers on ANY of the charts that rank album sales? Is it because those people are all against Axl Rose?/

Slash is hiding those numbers

[jman2000]

Chinese Democracy isn't even for sale anymore. (Or does buying mp3 count?). The cd for Chinese Democracy has been OOP since 2008? They were planning a re release which got cancelled. There are no new albums for sale in any stores.

[classicrawker]

How can you fire the star factor? How can that be deemed a viable move? Slash was talented with hooks and riffs, but the band would never have amounted to anything outside of the Strip without Axl.

Funny.

Think of all the bands that did make it out of the sunset strip. You are saying that Slash, Duff and Izzy weren't a talented enough group to pick a new singer and make it as far as bands like Skid Row, Motley Crue, Warrant, Ratt, Poison, etc.

And the only reason they were successful with Velvet Revolver was because for the second time in their career they got lucky with a dynamic singer?

And, since VR was more successful than Axl's vision of GnR, are you implying that Scott Weidland is a better frontman than Axl?

Velvet Revolver was made possible by the success those players enjoyed with GN'R. The supergroup was lucrative to people like Scott Weiland because of the GN'R pedigree. The only person you could say with confidence could have enjoyed relative success without Guns N' Roses would have been Slash. That is proven by the irrelevance of Duff and Matt musically outside of that project.

Izzy and Axl were a creative pair certainly. But Izzy needed Axl more than Axl needed Izzy and that's the reality. Where is Izzy today? Reappearing with Axl and new GN'R.

And where is Axl and new Guns N' Roses today? Touring the hits Izzy helped writing.

On tour playing to very large audiences in various parts of the globe. With a 5 mill+ record to boast in a world of MP3s.

It's silly to believe Izzy wrote the setlist GN'R play. He probably contributed a lot to parts of the song catalogue. Should Trent Reznor stop playing the NIN material which featured players like Robin Finck when that project start afresh later this year? No because it's his material too. Slash plays GN'R songs with Izzy credits. If you're successful at playing the old material why stop?

It has never been verified that ChiDem sold more than 3 million units.....still excellent but not 5 million as you claim........

I think we can assume, with credibility, that since its release in 2008, pre-repeated tours, Chinese Democracy has sold in excess of 5 million units.

Unfortunately that isn't the case. About a year ago somebody actually did the math and it just doesn't work out. I think they had a confirmed number of albums sold for the first year or two and everything after that has been speculation. I don't recall their exact method of tracking the numbers, but I think it was as simple as dividing the total sales by months of release and coming up with an average number of units the album would have moved each month. To achieve the numbers to reach five million, CD would have been charting every month for the past four years. Which it hasn't.

If it sold 2 million the first year, that means it would have sold 3 million the following three years. People really think CD is selling a million copies a year? Why aren't we seeing those numbers on ANY of the charts that rank album sales? Is it because those people are all against Axl Rose?/

That would be me mate...UYI1 came up with the sales numbers and I just crunched some simple math to show how unlikely ChiDem sold more than 3- 3.5 million copies and here is what I wrote January 2012 on this forum:

Thanks to Use Your Delusion 1 on MYGNR for these numbers

Chinese Democracy Sales, VERY DETAILED

Hello all, in my spare time I am compiling a sales record for all GN'R albums and thought I share with you my findings on Chinese Democracy. If your nation isn't represented and you know the numbers please post and I'll add to the list . On the left is the number that has been confermed by the recording assoication of that country and in brackets the certification. On the right is estimated sales. This is worked out by merely viewing the next certification number and then meeting halfway, for example the Netherlands has a certified 30,000 albums sold, but the sales figure is above that as the album was certified for the 30,000 sales very soon after Chinese Democracy's release. The next certification (Platinum) is 50,000 sales, but the album hasn't reached that, so therefore the sales are somewhere inbetween hence the 30-50,000 estimate, approx 40,000 if you average it out. If any of these figures are wrong (and I'm sure some are, for example I am suprised not one country has given CD a X2 Platinum certification) then please tell me and I'll change the list. I hope to have the GN'R total sales of all albums out in a couple of weeks, although some albums such as Live Era are taking time to track down in terms of firgures.

Please note that in some cases the estimation may be below the actual figures by someway as some cerficiations are only released very sparodically so if anything this is a conservative estimate

Country/Sales Confermed/Certification/Sales Estimated

Netherlands: 30,000+ shipped (GOLD), 30-50,000 sales

Malaysia; 7,500+ shipped (GOLD) 7,5-15,000 sales

Hungary; 5,000+ shipped (GOLD) 5-10,000 sales

Indonesia; 35,000+ shipped (GOLD) 35-70,000 sales

Taiwan; 15,000+ shipped (GOLD) 15-30,000 sales

Columbia; 10,000+ shipped (GOLD) 10-20,000 sales

Thailand; 10,000+ shipped (GOLD), 10-20,000 sales

Greece; 6,000+ shipped (GOLD) 6-12,000 sales

Denmark; 10,000+ shipped (GOLD) 10-20,000 sales

Czech Republic; 12,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 12-24,000 sales

Romania; 10,000 sales ?

South Africa; 40,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 40-80,000 sales

New Zealand; 15,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 15-25,000 sales

Austria; 20,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 20-30,000 sales

Brazil; 40,000+ shipped (GOLD) 40-80,000 sales

Italy; 60,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 60-120,000 sales

Switzerland; 30,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 30-60,000 sales

Australia; 70,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 80-120,000 sales

Sweden; 20,000+ shipped (GOLD) 20-40,000 sales

Ireland; 15,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 15-45,000 sales

Japan; 100,000+ shipped (GOLD) 125-225,000 sales

Singapore; 5,000+ shipped (GOLD) 5-10,000 sales

UK; 300,000+ Shipped (PLATINUM), 300-400,000 sales

USA; 1,000,000 shipped (PLATINUM), 700,000+ sales

Canada; 240,000+ shipped (X3 PLATINUM) 240-320,000 sales

Europe; 1,000,000+ certified (PLATINUM) 1-1.2 mllion sales

Germany; 100,000+ shipped (GOLD) 125-150,000 sales

France; 50,000+ shipped (GOLD) 50-100,000 sales

Argentina; Chinese Democracy; 40,000+ shipped (PLATINUM), 40-80,000 sales

Finland; 10,000+ shipped (PLATINUM), 12,500 sales

Mexico; 60,000+ shipped (PLATINUM), 60-100,000 sales....... thanks curmudgeonrose

Norway; 40,000+ shipped ( PLATINUM), 40-60,000 sales.......thanks spirt 83

Poland; 25,000+ shipped (PLATINUM), 25-40,000 sales.....thanks Ioko

The Vatican 6+ shipped (THE BENEDICTIAN XVI PLATINUM).....thanks Birdcatcher

UPDATE: Outside of the countries above the music industry from the rest of the world contributes to around 8.5-9.5% of album sales. Hence I will add 9% on the combined sales of above to get a approximate figure for Chinese Democracy's true worldwide sales.

Total Sales (including extra 9%):

2,881,250 sales (approx), so roughly speaking CD sold just under 3 million copies

According to this article in Billboard Chidem had sold 2.6 million Worldwide as of February 2009 so in order to have sold have sold 5 million units it would have had to have sold another 2.4 million units at an average of 66K units sold a month for the last 36 months. To have sold 6 million copies it would have had to sell 94.4K units a month...If it sold that many copies each month it would have stayed near the top of the charts in many of these countries yet the only reappearance on the charts I know of is when Best Buy put it on sale for $1.99 and it sold 3500 units the first week to get back into the Billboard 200 for one week and then it disappeared again...

So can someone please explain to me how this album sold so many copies each month for 3 years yet failed to chart again even once? And yet it only charted once again in the U.S the first week Best Buy placed it on sale for $1.99 and then it disappeared never to be seen on the charts again...

Once again I call bullshit on the 5 million number........

Edited March 20, 2013 by classicrawker

[useyorappetite]

Why is everyone talking about CD sales??

I don't really blame the band for trying to fire axl (although it's kind of backstabbing to do that to your friend without some serious talking first) at the same time i don't blame axl for getting the name and trying not to get fired. Seems like axl owning the name actually made the band stay together a little longer witch is a good think since i love illusions and i think most people agree they're not as good without each other.

[Sigh]

Axl did say part of the reason he put the bit about getting the band name in the contract was because their then manager (Alan) was always speaking in people's ears trying to get him fired.

So, it's Niven's fault that Axl got the name...

Nice, i fucking hate this idiot

Not possible. Uncle Axl was essential in Guns.

and this

Without Axl, there would be no GNR anymore

There is no GnR anymore. There is Rosé as a solo artist using the GnR name and what he refers to as the "brand".

[Sigh]

How can you fire the star factor? How can that be deemed a viable move? Slash was talented with hooks and riffs, but the band would never have amounted to anything outside of the Strip without Axl.

Funny.

Think of all the bands that did make it out of the sunset strip. You are saying that Slash, Duff and Izzy weren't a talented enough group to pick a new singer and make it as far as bands like Skid Row, Motley Crue, Warrant, Ratt, Poison, etc.

And the only reason they were successful with Velvet Revolver was because for the second time in their career they got lucky with a dynamic singer?

And, since VR was more successful than Axl's vision of GnR, are you implying that Scott Weidland is a better frontman than Axl?

Velvet Revolver was made possible by the success those players enjoyed with GN'R. The supergroup was lucrative to people like Scott Weiland because of the GN'R pedigree. The only person you could say with confidence could have enjoyed relative success without Guns N' Roses would have been Slash. That is proven by the irrelevance of Duff and Matt musically outside of that project.

Izzy and Axl were a creative pair certainly. But Izzy needed Axl more than Axl needed Izzy and that's the reality. Where is Izzy today? Reappearing with Axl and new GN'R.

And where is Axl and new Guns N' Roses today? Touring the hits Izzy helped writing.

On tour playing to very large audiences in various parts of the globe. With a 5 mill+ record to boast in a world of MP3s.

It's silly to believe Izzy wrote the setlist GN'R play. He probably contributed a lot to parts of the song catalogue. Should Trent Reznor stop playing the NIN material which featured players like Robin Finck when that project start afresh later this year? No because it's his material too. Slash plays GN'R songs with Izzy credits. If you're successful at playing the old material why stop?

It has never been verified that ChiDem sold more than 3 million units.....still excellent but not 5 million as you claim........

I think we can assume, with credibility, that since its release in 2008, pre-repeated tours, Chinese Democracy has sold in excess of 5 million units.

Unfortunately that isn't the case. About a year ago somebody actually did the math and it just doesn't work out. I think they had a confirmed number of albums sold for the first year or two and everything after that has been speculation. I don't recall their exact method of tracking the numbers, but I think it was as simple as dividing the total sales by months of release and coming up with an average number of units the album would have moved each month. To achieve the numbers to reach five million, CD would have been charting every month for the past four years. Which it hasn't.

If it sold 2 million the first year, that means it would have sold 3 million the following three years. People really think CD is selling a million copies a year? Why aren't we seeing those numbers on ANY of the charts that rank album sales? Is it because those people are all against Axl Rose?/

That would be me mate...UYI1 came up with the sales numbers and I just crunched some simple math to show how unlikely ChiDem sold more than 3- 3.5 million copies and here is what I wrote January 2012 on this forum:

Thanks to Use Your Delusion 1 on MYGNR for these numbers

Chinese Democracy Sales, VERY DETAILED

Hello all, in my spare time I am compiling a sales record for all GN'R albums and thought I share with you my findings on Chinese Democracy. If your nation isn't represented and you know the numbers please post and I'll add to the list . On the left is the number that has been confermed by the recording assoication of that country and in brackets the certification. On the right is estimated sales. This is worked out by merely viewing the next certification number and then meeting halfway, for example the Netherlands has a certified 30,000 albums sold, but the sales figure is above that as the album was certified for the 30,000 sales very soon after Chinese Democracy's release. The next certification (Platinum) is 50,000 sales, but the album hasn't reached that, so therefore the sales are somewhere inbetween hence the 30-50,000 estimate, approx 40,000 if you average it out. If any of these figures are wrong (and I'm sure some are, for example I am suprised not one country has given CD a X2 Platinum certification) then please tell me and I'll change the list. I hope to have the GN'R total sales of all albums out in a couple of weeks, although some albums such as Live Era are taking time to track down in terms of firgures.

Please note that in some cases the estimation may be below the actual figures by someway as some cerficiations are only released very sparodically so if anything this is a conservative estimate

Country/Sales Confermed/Certification/Sales Estimated

Netherlands: 30,000+ shipped (GOLD), 30-50,000 sales

Malaysia; 7,500+ shipped (GOLD) 7,5-15,000 sales

Hungary; 5,000+ shipped (GOLD) 5-10,000 sales

Indonesia; 35,000+ shipped (GOLD) 35-70,000 sales

Taiwan; 15,000+ shipped (GOLD) 15-30,000 sales

Columbia; 10,000+ shipped (GOLD) 10-20,000 sales

Thailand; 10,000+ shipped (GOLD), 10-20,000 sales

Greece; 6,000+ shipped (GOLD) 6-12,000 sales

Denmark; 10,000+ shipped (GOLD) 10-20,000 sales

Czech Republic; 12,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 12-24,000 sales

Romania; 10,000 sales ?

South Africa; 40,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 40-80,000 sales

New Zealand; 15,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 15-25,000 sales

Austria; 20,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 20-30,000 sales

Brazil; 40,000+ shipped (GOLD) 40-80,000 sales

Italy; 60,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 60-120,000 sales

Switzerland; 30,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 30-60,000 sales

Australia; 70,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 80-120,000 sales

Sweden; 20,000+ shipped (GOLD) 20-40,000 sales

Ireland; 15,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 15-45,000 sales

Japan; 100,000+ shipped (GOLD) 125-225,000 sales

Singapore; 5,000+ shipped (GOLD) 5-10,000 sales

UK; 300,000+ Shipped (PLATINUM), 300-400,000 sales

USA; 1,000,000 shipped (PLATINUM), 700,000+ sales

Canada; 240,000+ shipped (X3 PLATINUM) 240-320,000 sales

Europe; 1,000,000+ certified (PLATINUM) 1-1.2 mllion sales

Germany; 100,000+ shipped (GOLD) 125-150,000 sales

France; 50,000+ shipped (GOLD) 50-100,000 sales

Argentina; Chinese Democracy; 40,000+ shipped (PLATINUM), 40-80,000 sales

Finland; 10,000+ shipped (PLATINUM), 12,500 sales

Mexico; 60,000+ shipped (PLATINUM), 60-100,000 sales....... thanks curmudgeonrose

Norway; 40,000+ shipped ( PLATINUM), 40-60,000 sales.......thanks spirt 83

Poland; 25,000+ shipped (PLATINUM), 25-40,000 sales.....thanks Ioko

The Vatican 6+ shipped (THE BENEDICTIAN XVI PLATINUM).....thanks Birdcatcher

UPDATE: Outside of the countries above the music industry from the rest of the world contributes to around 8.5-9.5% of album sales. Hence I will add 9% on the combined sales of above to get a approximate figure for Chinese Democracy's true worldwide sales.

Total Sales (including extra 9%):

2,881,250 sales (approx), so roughly speaking CD sold just under 3 million copies

According to this article in Billboard Chidem had sold 2.6 million Worldwide as of February 2009 so in order to have sold have sold 5 million units it would have had to have sold another 2.4 million units at an average of 66K units sold a month for the last 36 months. To have sold 6 million copies it would have had to sell 94.4K units a month...If it sold that many copies each month it would have stayed near the top of the charts in many of these countries yet the only reappearance on the charts I know of is when Best Buy put it on sale for $1.99 and it sold 3500 units the first week to get back into the Billboard 200 for one week and then it disappeared again...

So can someone please explain to me how this album sold so many copies each month for 3 years yet failed to chart again even once? And yet it only charted once again in the U.S the first week Best Buy placed it on sale for $1.99 and then it disappeared never to be seen on the charts again...

Once again I call bullshit on the 5 million number........

Nobody believes the 5 million number. It's just used by the Rose apologists to make themselves feel better about the poor sales of CD. They know that number is just made up.

[izzydoezit]

I am still waiting for a realistic reply on the CD sales analysis by CR. Otherwise 5 mil. is bullshit.

[Ali]

How can you fire the star factor? How can that be deemed a viable move? Slash was talented with hooks and riffs, but the band would never have amounted to anything outside of the Strip without Axl.

Funny.

Think of all the bands that did make it out of the sunset strip. You are saying that Slash, Duff and Izzy weren't a talented enough group to pick a new singer and make it as far as bands like Skid Row, Motley Crue, Warrant, Ratt, Poison, etc.

And the only reason they were successful with Velvet Revolver was because for the second time in their career they got lucky with a dynamic singer?

And, since VR was more successful than Axl's vision of GnR, are you implying that Scott Weidland is a better frontman than Axl?

Velvet Revolver was made possible by the success those players enjoyed with GN'R. The supergroup was lucrative to people like Scott Weiland because of the GN'R pedigree. The only person you could say with confidence could have enjoyed relative success without Guns N' Roses would have been Slash. That is proven by the irrelevance of Duff and Matt musically outside of that project.

Izzy and Axl were a creative pair certainly. But Izzy needed Axl more than Axl needed Izzy and that's the reality. Where is Izzy today? Reappearing with Axl and new GN'R.

And where is Axl and new Guns N' Roses today? Touring the hits Izzy helped writing.

On tour playing to very large audiences in various parts of the globe. With a 5 mill+ record to boast in a world of MP3s.

It's silly to believe Izzy wrote the setlist GN'R play. He probably contributed a lot to parts of the song catalogue. Should Trent Reznor stop playing the NIN material which featured players like Robin Finck when that project start afresh later this year? No because it's his material too. Slash plays GN'R songs with Izzy credits. If you're successful at playing the old material why stop?

It has never been verified that ChiDem sold more than 3 million units.....still excellent but not 5 million as you claim........

I think we can assume, with credibility, that since its release in 2008, pre-repeated tours, Chinese Democracy has sold in excess of 5 million units.

Unfortunately that isn't the case. About a year ago somebody actually did the math and it just doesn't work out. I think they had a confirmed number of albums sold for the first year or two and everything after that has been speculation. I don't recall their exact method of tracking the numbers, but I think it was as simple as dividing the total sales by months of release and coming up with an average number of units the album would have moved each month. To achieve the numbers to reach five million, CD would have been charting every month for the past four years. Which it hasn't.

If it sold 2 million the first year, that means it would have sold 3 million the following three years. People really think CD is selling a million copies a year? Why aren't we seeing those numbers on ANY of the charts that rank album sales? Is it because those people are all against Axl Rose?/

That would be me mate...UYI1 came up with the sales numbers and I just crunched some simple math to show how unlikely ChiDem sold more than 3- 3.5 million copies and here is what I wrote January 2012 on this forum:

>Thanks to Use Your Delusion 1 on MYGNR for these numbers

Chinese Democracy Sales, VERY DETAILED

Hello all, in my spare time I am compiling a sales record for all GN'R albums and thought I share with you my findings on Chinese Democracy. If your nation isn't represented and you know the numbers please post and I'll add to the list . On the left is the number that has been confermed by the recording assoication of that country and in brackets the certification. On the right is estimated sales. This is worked out by merely viewing the next certification number and then meeting halfway, for example the Netherlands has a certified 30,000 albums sold, but the sales figure is above that as the album was certified for the 30,000 sales very soon after Chinese Democracy's release. The next certification (Platinum) is 50,000 sales, but the album hasn't reached that, so therefore the sales are somewhere inbetween hence the 30-50,000 estimate, approx 40,000 if you average it out. If any of these figures are wrong (and I'm sure some are, for example I am suprised not one country has given CD a X2 Platinum certification) then please tell me and I'll change the list. I hope to have the GN'R total sales of all albums out in a couple of weeks, although some albums such as Live Era are taking time to track down in terms of firgures.

Please note that in some cases the estimation may be below the actual figures by someway as some cerficiations are only released very sparodically so if anything this is a conservative estimate

Country/Sales Confermed/Certification/Sales Estimated

Netherlands: 30,000+ shipped (GOLD), 30-50,000 sales

Malaysia; 7,500+ shipped (GOLD) 7,5-15,000 sales

Hungary; 5,000+ shipped (GOLD) 5-10,000 sales

Indonesia; 35,000+ shipped (GOLD) 35-70,000 sales

Taiwan; 15,000+ shipped (GOLD) 15-30,000 sales

Columbia; 10,000+ shipped (GOLD) 10-20,000 sales

Thailand; 10,000+ shipped (GOLD), 10-20,000 sales

Greece; 6,000+ shipped (GOLD) 6-12,000 sales

Denmark; 10,000+ shipped (GOLD) 10-20,000 sales

Czech Republic; 12,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 12-24,000 sales

Romania; 10,000 sales ?

South Africa; 40,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 40-80,000 sales

New Zealand; 15,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 15-25,000 sales

Austria; 20,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 20-30,000 sales

Brazil; 40,000+ shipped (GOLD) 40-80,000 sales

Italy; 60,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 60-120,000 sales

Switzerland; 30,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 30-60,000 sales

Australia; 70,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 80-120,000 sales

Sweden; 20,000+ shipped (GOLD) 20-40,000 sales

Ireland; 15,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 15-45,000 sales

Japan; 100,000+ shipped (GOLD) 125-225,000 sales

Singapore; 5,000+ shipped (GOLD) 5-10,000 sales

UK; 300,000+ Shipped (PLATINUM), 300-400,000 sales

USA; 1,000,000 shipped (PLATINUM), 700,000+ sales

Canada; 240,000+ shipped (X3 PLATINUM) 240-320,000 sales

Europe; 1,000,000+ certified (PLATINUM) 1-1.2 mllion sales

Germany; 100,000+ shipped (GOLD) 125-150,000 sales

France; 50,000+ shipped (GOLD) 50-100,000 sales

Argentina; Chinese Democracy; 40,000+ shipped (PLATINUM), 40-80,000 sales

Finland; 10,000+ shipped (PLATINUM), 12,500 sales

Mexico; 60,000+ shipped (PLATINUM), 60-100,000 sales....... thanks curmudgeonrose

Norway; 40,000+ shipped ( PLATINUM), 40-60,000 sales.......thanks spirt 83

Poland; 25,000+ shipped (PLATINUM), 25-40,000 sales.....thanks Ioko

The Vatican 6+ shipped (THE BENEDICTIAN XVI PLATINUM).....thanks Birdcatcher

UPDATE: Outside of the countries above the music industry from the rest of the world contributes to around 8.5-9.5% of album sales. Hence I will add 9% on the combined sales of above to get a approximate figure for Chinese Democracy's true worldwide sales.

Total Sales (including extra 9%):

2,881,250 sales (approx), so roughly speaking CD sold just under 3 million copies

According to this article in Billboard Chidem had sold 2.6 million Worldwide as of February 2009 so in order to have sold have sold 5 million units it would have had to have sold another 2.4 million units at an average of 66K units sold a month for the last 36 months. To have sold 6 million copies it would have had to sell 94.4K units a month...If it sold that many copies each month it would have stayed near the top of the charts in many of these countries yet the only reappearance on the charts I know of is when Best Buy put it on sale for $1.99 and it sold 3500 units the first week to get back into the Billboard 200 for one week and then it disappeared again...

So can someone please explain to me how this album sold so many copies each month for 3 years yet failed to chart again even once? And yet it only charted once again in the U.S the first week Best Buy placed it on sale for $1.99 and then it disappeared never to be seen on the charts again...

Once again I call bullshit on the 5 million number........

This is your idea of accurate, CR? Really? Estimate upon estimate based upon certifications and info from forum members? You do realize that record companies have to pay for certifications and the absence of a certification does not mean absence of sales, it just means absence of certifications?

That list is and the approximations are based on the flawed premise I mention above and therefore cannot be taken as definitive.

Ali

[dalsh327]

Chinese Democracy isn't even for sale anymore. (Or does buying mp3 count?). The cd for Chinese Democracy has been OOP since 2008? They were planning a re release which got cancelled. There are no new albums for sale in any stores.

Yes, MP3s count. If they do a reissue, it's prob. going to be a deluxe edition, "end of tour" limited edition through the website for the fans. Include the O2 and the 3D DVD, have a bunch of exclusive footage included, and a documentary. The Ozzy Blizzard 30th goes for $150.

If they did a 5000 copy run and Axl signed 100 copies, no doubt preorders would sell out. Team Brazil would be busy numbering them for a few weeks.

Maybe if/when the DVD comes out, they'll do some sort of reissue.

[classicrawker]

No Ali I also base it on officially published numbers reported on the internet back several years ago which was under 3 million units sold worldwide and then calculated the numbers based on what they would have had to sell each month to reach 5 million...If it really sold that much how do you explain it never getting back on the charts except for 1 week when Best Buy put it on sale for $1.99? Even then it only sold 5K copies and then disappeared again.

I gave my logic so you can try to refute it or if you have evidence to the contrary lets see it otherwise I call bullshit..........

[wasted]

Best Buy bought 1. 6 million copies all those seem to have gone.

Europe was 1 mil in 09?

Rest of world was 1 mil.

So 3. 6 mil if europe and rest of world sold no more copies.

So 4 mil approx. Thats saying it sold 400k outside the US since 09.

[classicrawker]

Best Buy bought 1. 6 million copies all those seem to have gone.

Europe was 1 mil in 09?

Rest of world was 1 mil.

So 3. 6 mil if europe and rest of world sold no more copies.

So 4 mil approx. Thats saying it sold 400k outside the US since 09.

Best Buy did not sell all those copies as ChiDem sold less than 1 million units in he U.S.

When they put it on sale for $1.99 it sold 5K the first week and made it back into the Billboard 200 for one week only then disappeared never to chart again.

They dumped the rest to the cut rate odd lot store and Salvage stores here in the U.S.

Where do you think all those stores selling ChiDem for $0.99 got them from?

Edited March 24, 2013 by classicrawker

[TombRaider]

Without Axl, GnR wouldn't have been the same.

[wasted]

Best Buy bought 1. 6 million copies all those seem to have gone.

Europe was 1 mil in 09?

Rest of world was 1 mil.

So 3. 6 mil if europe and rest of world sold no more copies.

So 4 mil approx. Thats saying it sold 400k outside the US since 09.

Best Buy did not sell all those copies as ChiDem sold less than 1 million units in he U.S.

When they put it on sale for $1.99 it sold 5K the first week and made it back into the Billboard 200 for one week only then disappeared never to chart again.

They dumped the rest to the cut rate odd lot store and Salvage stores here in the U.S.

Where do you think all those stores selling ChiDem for $0.99 got them from?

I heard you couldn't buy a physical copy of CD anymore. I think it's safe to assume that they will eventually be sold, one way or another. and maybe would have been sold if not for the BB deal. So maybe thats where the numbers come from. Some people, like UMG, just say 1.6 in the US. 3 mill from everywhere else. 5 mil. rounded up.

Edited March 25, 2013 by wasted

[Vincent Vega]

I don't why we're debating numbers. 3 million is still a very good figure.....

People always say "well, see, VR did better..." But VR had:

1) Tons of promotion by the band. Axl/Geffen didn't do much in that regard

2) Good PR. newGNR has always had bad PR because of Axl's antics.

3) VR was a supergroup composed of two of the biggest bands of the '90s, plus a member from Suicidal Tendencies. It wasn't just GN'R fans buying Contraband; It was fans of STP, GN'R, and Tendencies buying them. We can't write this factor out when comparing sales. I wonder how a band with Slash, Duff, Matt, Gilby and an unknown singer would've done?

4) Contraband had music videos, interviews with the band, etc. It was all over the place.

5) 2004 was a different climate musically compared to 2008.

[classicrawker]

Best Buy bought 1. 6 million copies all those seem to have gone.

Europe was 1 mil in 09?

Rest of world was 1 mil.

So 3. 6 mil if europe and rest of world sold no more copies.

So 4 mil approx. Thats saying it sold 400k outside the US since 09.

Best Buy did not sell all those copies as ChiDem sold less than 1 million units in he U.S.

When they put it on sale for $1.99 it sold 5K the first week and made it back into the Billboard 200 for one week only then disappeared never to chart again.

They dumped the rest to the cut rate odd lot store and Salvage stores here in the U.S.

Where do you think all those stores selling ChiDem for $0.99 got them from?

I heard you couldn't buy a physical copy of CD anymore. I think it's safe to assume that they will eventually be sold, one way or another. and maybe would have been sold if not for the BB deal. So maybe thats where the numbers come from. Some people, like UMG, just say 1.6 in the US. 3 mill from everywhere else. 5 mil. rounded up.

Yeah you can't buy a physical copy without a search because it is OOP now...that does not mean it sold out........

We have no idea how many of the 600-800K Best Buy got stuck with will sell......and where did UMG ever say they sold 1.6 million here n the U.S. and 3 million elsewhere? Do you have a source for these numbers

3 million units sold for that album all things considered is nothing to sneeze at but nobody has provided any proof to show it sold more than that number

worldwide.

[Bobbo]

No Ali I also base it on officially published numbers reported on the internet back several years ago which was under 3 million units sold worldwide and then calculated the numbers based on what they would have had to sell each month to reach 5 million...If it really sold that much how do you explain it never getting back on the charts except for 1 week when Best Buy put it on sale for $1.99? Even then it only sold 5K copies and then disappeared again.

I gave my logic so you can try to refute it or if you have evidence to the contrary lets see it otherwise I call bullshit..........

It was even less than that. Like maybe 3200 bThen they shipped the rest to dollar trees across the nation.

I always wondered if the millions it did sell included the 1.6 million best buy bought upfront. The albums planitum in the states, and has been since like a month after the album was released, yet we know a couple years later it only sold 700,000 something of those copies. Idk, was always intrigued by that...

Edited March 25, 2013 by Bobbo

[hellobeatle]

I don't why we're debating numbers. 3 million is still a very good figure.....

People always say "well, see, VR did better..." But VR had:

1) Tons of promotion by the band. Axl/Geffen didn't do much in that regard

2) Good PR. newGNR has always had bad PR because of Axl's antics.

3) VR was a supergroup composed of two of the biggest bands of the '90s, plus a member from Suicidal Tendencies. It wasn't just GN'R fans buying Contraband; It was fans of STP, GN'R, and Tendencies buying them. We can't write this factor out when comparing sales. I wonder how a band with Slash, Duff, Matt, Gilby and an unknown singer would've done?

4) Contraband had music videos, interviews with the band, etc. It was all over the place.

5) 2004 was a different climate musically compared to 2008.

Oh please... ChiDem had the GUNS N' ROSES name.. that is the ONLY reason it even sold the pittance it did... If it was any other band you would've never heard of it... The album sucks. Period.

[wasted]

Best Buy bought 1. 6 million copies all those seem to have gone.

Europe was 1 mil in 09?

Rest of world was 1 mil.

So 3. 6 mil if europe and rest of world sold no more copies.

So 4 mil approx. Thats saying it sold 400k outside the US since 09.

Best Buy did not sell all those copies as ChiDem sold less than 1 million units in he U.S.

When they put it on sale for $1.99 it sold 5K the first week and made it back into the Billboard 200 for one week only then disappeared never to chart again.

They dumped the rest to the cut rate odd lot store and Salvage stores here in the U.S.

Where do you think all those stores selling ChiDem for $0.99 got them from?

I heard you couldn't buy a physical copy of CD anymore. I think it's safe to assume that they will eventually be sold, one way or another. and maybe would have been sold if not for the BB deal. So maybe thats where the numbers come from. Some people, like UMG, just say 1.6 in the US. 3 mill from everywhere else. 5 mil. rounded up.

Yeah you can't buy a physical copy without a search because it is OOP now...that does not mean it sold out........

We have no idea how many of the 600-800K Best Buy got stuck with will sell......and where did UMG ever say they sold 1.6 million here n the U.S. and 3 million elsewhere? Do you have a source for these numbers

3 million units sold for that album all things considered is nothing to sneeze at but nobody has provided any proof to show it sold more than that number

worldwide.

I was think how to get to 5 mil. Maybe from UMG pov theyve been sold. Its that 600k that is a sig bump.

Then add another mil to the 2 mil already sold. Between europe, UK, rest of the world another mil not much.

Eventually ir will hit 5 mil. Still nowhere near afd sales. 3-5 Mil, whats the diff.

[axlrosefan1]

Greatest Hits sold 10m+ I think. Crazy. GH was the 2nd GN'R album I bought after AFD.