Is this the worst time ever to be a GnR fan?

[Guest cbgnr666]

An album will probably come and then people will complain about it and then start complaing about the wait for the next album.

[GNR123GNR456]

An album will probably come and then people will complain about it and then start complaing about the wait for the next album.

Who the hell will complain about new music?

[Rustycage]

An album will probably come and then people will complain about it and then start complaing about the wait for the next album.

Yeah because it's the fans that are so demanding. How dare they want more than 1 album every 20 years!?

Edited June 15, 2013 by Rustycage

[Guest cbgnr666]

An album will probably come and then people will complain about it and then start complaing about the wait for the next album.

Who the hell will complain about new music?

The people who won't like the new music.

[Lies They Tell]

Why are people complaining that there's no new album to look forward to? We have CD2. Why aren't you looking forward to that? Is it because we don't know the official name of the album? You can't look forward to it if you don't know what it's gonna be called?

Why don't you masturbate listening to The General intro or the Checkmate leak?

[Rustycage]

Why are people complaining that there's no new album to look forward to? We have CD2.

[Lies They Tell]

Why are people complaining that there's no new album to look forward to? We have CD2.

What? We have Chinese Democracy 2 to look forward to. Shocking news, isn't it?

[Rustycage]

Why are people complaining that there's no new album to look forward to? We have CD2.

What? We have Chinese Democracy 2 to look forward to. Shocking news, isn't it?

Do we now? I don't know what whispers you've heard but as far as we all know, there are absolutely no current plans for a "CDII." THAT'S why people are complaining.

[Crash Diet]

Well, as much as i lost my faith in this band, i say: better than the silent years

[Lies They Tell]

Why are people complaining that there's no new album to look forward to? We have CD2.

What? We have Chinese Democracy 2 to look forward to. Shocking news, isn't it?

Do we now? I don't know what whispers you've heard but as far as we all know, there are absolutely no current plans for a "CDII." THAT'S why people are complaining.

Who says there are no plans? Just because they aren't working on the album right now doesn't mean that there are no plans. Axl seems to want to make the groundwork (touring) properly before focusing on the next album. There's absolutely no reason to think that the next album wouldn't be Axl's main priority afer the tour is over. They've got lots of unreleased material, so they could easily release the next record quickly. I don't see what prevents anyone from looking forward to CD2, especially if they had the patience to wait for CD1.

[jellyzero]

The simple fact is that every day Axl is on stage is another day he isn't working on a new album.

[Rustycage]

Why are people complaining that there's no new album to look forward to? We have CD2.

What? We have Chinese Democracy 2 to look forward to. Shocking news, isn't it?

Do we now? I don't know what whispers you've heard but as far as we all know, there are absolutely no current plans for a "CDII." THAT'S why people are complaining.

Who says there are no plans?

None of the interviews have a band member saying that the album is in their plans.

Just because they aren't working on the album right now doesn't mean that there are no plans.

Why don't you show people what makes you think there ARE plans. Most people don't sit around with their thumb in their ass and their head in the clouds and say there are plans right now. The only plans we know of are tours.

Axl seems to want to make the groundwork (touring) properly before focusing on the next album.

LOL. Yea right.

There's absolutely no reason to think that the next album wouldn't be Axl's main priority afer the tour is over. They've got lots of unreleased material, so they could easily release the next record quickly. I don't see what prevents anyone from looking forward to CD2, especially if they had the patience to wait for CD1.

This is the same old tired excuse thrown out during every tour. Then the tour finishes and they announce more dates and another tour.

No one said there is anything to prevent looking forward to CDII. You asked why people are complaining and the answer is as clear as day.

[Lies They Tell]

Why are people complaining that there's no new album to look forward to? We have CD2.

What? We have Chinese Democracy 2 to look forward to. Shocking news, isn't it?

Do we now? I don't know what whispers you've heard but as far as we all know, there are absolutely no current plans for a "CDII." THAT'S why people are complaining.

Who says there are no plans?

None of the interviews have a band member saying that the album is in their plans.

Just because they aren't working on the album right now doesn't mean that there are no plans.

Why don't you show people what makes you think there ARE plans. Most people don't sit around with their thumb in their ass and their head in the clouds and say there are plans right now. The only plans we know of are tours.

Axl seems to want to make the groundwork (touring) properly before focusing on the next album.

LOL. Yea right.

There's absolutely no reason to think that the next album wouldn't be Axl's main priority afer the tour is over. They've got lots of unreleased material, so they could easily release the next record quickly. I don't see what prevents anyone from looking forward to CD2, especially if they had the patience to wait for CD1.

This is the same old tired excuse thrown out during every tour. Then the tour finishes and they announce more dates and another tour.

No one said there is anything to prevent looking forward to CDII. You asked why people are complaining and the answer is as clear as day.

You don't consider DJ Ashba a band member? He says in pretty much every interview that they're constantly working on new songs and CD2 is their main priority. Obviously he's exaggerating, but nevertheless. Your claim that none of the bandmembers would be talking about CD2 plans is just a lie. Bumblefoot seems very enhusiastic to start working on the next album too. You don't think he's a bandmember either? How about Axl then? Is he a bandmember? He said pretty clearly that the next album will come out sooner than CD1: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/axl-rose-promises-new-guns-n-roses-album-sooner-than-chinese-democracy-20121031

You don't think this tour will ever end? Ok your free to think so. Or do you think that the tour will end and that's it. They all decide to forget the next record and Axl retires? Ok, feel free to believe so. Seems pretty delusional in my opinion but whatever.

[rockerman]

Why are people complaining that there's no new album to look forward to? We have CD2.

What? We have Chinese Democracy 2 to look forward to. Shocking news, isn't it?

Do we now? I don't know what whispers you've heard but as far as we all know, there are absolutely no current plans for a "CDII." THAT'S why people are complaining.

Who says there are no plans? Just because they aren't working on the album right now doesn't mean that there are no plans. Axl seems to want to make the groundwork (touring) properly before focusing on the next album. There's absolutely no reason to think that the next album wouldn't be Axl's main priority afer the tour is over. They've got lots of unreleased material, so they could easily release the next record quickly. I don't see what prevents anyone from looking forward to CD2, especially if they had the patience to wait for CD1.

optimistism is good ..helps you use your illusion....However...time is a factor now....seriously..its ticking away...given the stregnth in which Axl described his new music...whats the hold up?..Given the stregnths of this bands ability what makes an ep like LIES damn impossible? If CD 2 is anything like CD 1 ...what an insult to have to wait 15 years for it to surface. I think Axl knows that and the situation is going to require a whole new set of songs because the unreleased material....well its being held back for a reason. We like to take Axl at his word that the next album is the big guns....but im sensing that its more of the same type of material and less and less a true GNR sounding album than CD was.

Question: Does Axl really want to draw this current band into recording any more material given that the formula for being a tour band playing nostalgia songs works enough to stay in the game without requiring millions of more $$ to record and re-record material that is now 10-15 years old??

[Lies They Tell]

Why are people complaining that there's no new album to look forward to? We have CD2.

What? We have Chinese Democracy 2 to look forward to. Shocking news, isn't it?

Do we now? I don't know what whispers you've heard but as far as we all know, there are absolutely no current plans for a "CDII." THAT'S why people are complaining.

Who says there are no plans? Just because they aren't working on the album right now doesn't mean that there are no plans. Axl seems to want to make the groundwork (touring) properly before focusing on the next album. There's absolutely no reason to think that the next album wouldn't be Axl's main priority afer the tour is over. They've got lots of unreleased material, so they could easily release the next record quickly. I don't see what prevents anyone from looking forward to CD2, especially if they had the patience to wait for CD1.

optimistism is good ..helps you use your illusion....However...time is a factor now....seriously..its ticking away...given the stregnth in which Axl described his new music...whats the hold up?..Given the stregnths of this bands ability what makes an ep like LIES damn impossible? If CD 2 is anything like CD 1 ...what an insult to have to wait 15 years for it to surface. I think Axl knows that and the situation is going to require a whole new set of songs because the unreleased material....well its being held back for a reason. We like to take Axl at his word that the next album is the big guns....but im sensing that its more of the same type of material and less and less a true GNR sounding album than CD was.

Question: Does Axl really want to draw this current band into recording any more material given that the formula for being a tour band playing nostalgia songs works enough to stay in the game without requiring millions of more $$ to record and re-record material that is now 10-15 years old??

What makes an ep like LIES damn impossible? Probably the fact that people are so critical when it comes to GNR these days. They can't just release a rushed album like that and expect people to love it. They aren't the biggest band in the world anymore who can do anything they want and people enjoy it. Instead everything they do will be compared to AFD.

Personally I think that the "it's being held back for a reason" logic is a bit silly, considering that GNR have been saving big guns for later since the early days. Sure there was a reason why Don't Cry, You Could Be Mine and November Rain were not put on Appetite, but obviously the reason was not that the songs weren't good enough.

Based on what we've heard of the unreleased stuff, it sounds pretty fucking good IMO. The General was also Bach's favorite song, so it's not just Axl's words that suggest that the best is yet to come.

I don't know Axl personally, but I know he's been writing these type of lyrics: "Ask yourself why I would choose to prostitute myself to live with fortune and shame" That's why I think that he won't be satisfied being just a tour band playing nostalgia songs. He's been working hard to get his raputation back. Why on earth would he ruin everything by saying "you know what, I was just lying when I said that the next album would come out sooner than the last one. I'm actually never gonna release it. GNR is just a nostalgia act now" His ego would not allow it.

[ThinkAboutYou]

Why are people complaining that there's no new album to look forward to? We have CD2.

What? We have Chinese Democracy 2 to look forward to. Shocking news, isn't it?

Do we now? I don't know what whispers you've heard but as far as we all know, there are absolutely no current plans for a "CDII." THAT'S why people are complaining.

True the die hard's are just hoping we will see Chinese Democracy 2 sometime this decade

[highvoltage]

2003-2005

/thread

I actually agree with you. I'd add the time between '95 - '99 as well. There was no Twitter, no Facebook, no shows, the band members were rarely seen or spoke, and Axl was no where to be found. There were literally less than a handful of actual photos of him that surfaced during those years. I remember threads of people even speculating if he was still alive, or at the very least had retired, and was there even a band anymore. The anticipation of an album wasn't a good thing either, because the longer the wait, the more people lost interest and gave up. Lots of false hope and unfounded rumors made it much worse than not having any idea if a possible album existed at all.

Both of these points.

People talk about the "mystery" not being there anymore, but simply put - I (and many others) was mocked 10 years ago for suggesting that Chinese Democracy would ever be released, both by members here, and people in real life. The period after Bucket walked was tough.

The prevailing view on the board was that the album would never see the light of day, and this was coupled with complete silence from Axl and the camp. There were no pictures, no shows, no posts, barely a website... just nothing - any mention of news (usually a single line from Tommy or Richard) came once every 6 months and it was usually something like "Maybe it's coming in Fall. Maybe in Winter. It's going to be released, I just don't know when" type stuff. People hadn't seen anything from Axl in years.

When he popped back up in public, it was incredible to see the flood of excitement on here after so long in the dark.

Now, people seem to be once again convinced we'll never see another album, and this time around we have touring, a website, social media, pictures, a crappy fanclub and all the rest of it... yet some people seem to be even more negative than they were during the "dark" years. I think it's because people can see that the band actually exists now as a cohesive unit, and they're capable of recording music - they're just not doing it, which people find frustrating.

I still believe we'll see another album or at least some kind of new music from this band. When is anyone's guess. It's clear the fanbase (at least here) will continue to decline until music surfaces.

Will Axl lose weight and return to his touring form from past years? Probably not, but he's 50, and as many point out, there's every chance part of it is him trying to save his voice for the studio. I imagine singing like he did through 2010 takes it's toll after a while - I was very satisfied with his vocal form at the shows I caught recently, and if toning down the "rasp" keeps him in the game for a few extra years, then I'm all for it.

It's just the lack of new music that's disheartening for me.

[rockerman]

Why are people complaining that there's no new album to look forward to? We have CD2.

What? We have Chinese Democracy 2 to look forward to. Shocking news, isn't it?

Do we now? I don't know what whispers you've heard but as far as we all know, there are absolutely no current plans for a "CDII." THAT'S why people are complaining.

Who says there are no plans? Just because they aren't working on the album right now doesn't mean that there are no plans. Axl seems to want to make the groundwork (touring) properly before focusing on the next album. There's absolutely no reason to think that the next album wouldn't be Axl's main priority afer the tour is over. They've got lots of unreleased material, so they could easily release the next record quickly. I don't see what prevents anyone from looking forward to CD2, especially if they had the patience to wait for CD1.

optimistism is good ..helps you use your illusion....However...time is a factor now....seriously..its ticking away...given the stregnth in which Axl described his new music...whats the hold up?..Given the stregnths of this bands ability what makes an ep like LIES damn impossible? If CD 2 is anything like CD 1 ...what an insult to have to wait 15 years for it to surface. I think Axl knows that and the situation is going to require a whole new set of songs because the unreleased material....well its being held back for a reason. We like to take Axl at his word that the next album is the big guns....but im sensing that its more of the same type of material and less and less a true GNR sounding album than CD was.

Question: Does Axl really want to draw this current band into recording any more material given that the formula for being a tour band playing nostalgia songs works enough to stay in the game without requiring millions of more $$ to record and re-record material that is now 10-15 years old??

What makes an ep like LIES damn impossible? Probably the fact that people are so critical when it comes to GNR these days. They can't just release a rushed album like that and expect people to love it. They aren't the biggest band in the world anymore who can do anything they want and people enjoy it. Instead everything they do will be compared to AFD.

Personally I think that the "it's being held back for a reason" logic is a bit silly, considering that GNR have been saving big guns for later since the early days. Sure there was a reason why Don't Cry, You Could Be Mine and November Rain were not put on Appetite, but obviously the reason was not that the songs weren't good enough.

Based on what we've heard of the unreleased stuff, it sounds pretty fucking good IMO. The General was also Bach's favorite song, so it's not just Axl's words that suggest that the best is yet to come.

I don't know Axl personally, but I know he's been writing these type of lyrics: "Ask yourself why I would choose to prostitute myself to live with fortune and shame" That's why I think that he won't be satisfied being just a tour band playing nostalgia songs. He's been working hard to get his raputation back. Why on earth would he ruin everything by saying "you know what, I was just lying when I said that the next album would come out sooner than the last one. I'm actually never gonna release it. GNR is just a nostalgia act now" His ego would not allow it.

i dont find it illogical at all...once the music is in the can..its the record lable that picks and chooses what to do with it as well as a ton of other considerations including royalty cuts etc percentages and promotion etc.... If Axl had these big guns in the can as he described at Leeds and how and when they were supposed to drop....its been 5 years now..CD came and went ...So whats the hang up here? I would think that someone would and SHOULD capitalize on the moment while it lasts...this isnt a virginal rock unit here..this is NuGNR. Yet to date No new songs are played... intelligent people just want to know how come?

Everything from here on out is going to be compared to the glory days.. Until it approaches that quality or that level of authenticity ..it cannot be helped because that is what is natural and its logical as well. They held back UYI material because it didnt jive with AFD and they had enough material from club days to carry them along into the UYI era.

THere is absolutely nothing that should prevent this band from recording an EP...the fact is to date..(and its illogical) they dont do SHIT ...like its an impossible thing to do.....makes this even more "illogical" without any new information other than snippets that the band has yet to record anything together.....It is rather intelligent to wonder if its Axl or if its some other factor like the record lable.

Thats what an Ep is for..its not goddamn classical top secret shit... its talented people writing an EP- something that SHOULD be relatively easy for seasoned muscians.Lies was a success.. and it worked and TSi was intended to be another before the implosion happened and the long wait occoured. Lies was put out to keep the interest alive and to entice the fans while the production of UYI commenced. Just how long does a band actually have to be together before they record?

Clearly the source material for Axl and his lyric writting muse has abandoned him when one considers the eggs he dropped on CD's music....you simply have to either be deaf, illiterate or so deepthroated to tag the lyrics as being" masterpiece quality" ..certainly well below the expectations or the standard that Axl set himself. If no one has told Axl yet some one should...he is after all a professional.

Remember.. its not wise to take Axl at his word..He said THIS I LOVE was the heaviest thing he had ever writtern...HMMMMMM really ..you wrote the theme song for Cats2 and that is your heaviest song?. I can understand why your band had to goad you into recording it...I would be embarassed too.

You ask why would he hold back his music after what he did to record it...Who knows?...maybe he just dont feel the vibe anymore.. or the really are not as good as they may have sounded in 2001... or after the dismal way CD went down that he feels this set just dont work for what he thought they might work.. Or maybe FINK and BuCKETHEAD sued the shit out of him and he cant use the material until that matter is cleared up? There may be a logical explanation..im sure its logical to GNRs camp.

Im all for hoping that the real CD hits soon...it would be a pleasant surprise to hear and witness that GODDAM!!! IT DOESNT TAKE 15 YEARS TO WRITE 14 SONGs! With modern technology being what it is... weeks at most- not years....IF that is they have lyrics and a willing singer to sing them.

Lets be clear about something.. Axl isnt doing shit to get his reputation back.

[machinegunner]

Wouldn't know because i tuned out for 12 or 13years.

[Guest charlie555]

A lot of talk on here about a new album and/or recording. Don't confuse the two.

A new album would more likely than not mean that the tracks already recorded are released.

Recording has to be paid for by somebody, and the label is not going to foot the bill when there is 1+ album sitting there waiting to be released.

Also, any 'recording' at Axl's discretion is actually 're-recording' parts by Finck et al and tinkering with the already recorded tracks. New 'recording' - no plans!

[Lies They Tell]

Why are people complaining that there's no new album to look forward to? We have CD2.

What? We have Chinese Democracy 2 to look forward to. Shocking news, isn't it?

Do we now? I don't know what whispers you've heard but as far as we all know, there are absolutely no current plans for a "CDII." THAT'S why people are complaining.

Who says there are no plans? Just because they aren't working on the album right now doesn't mean that there are no plans. Axl seems to want to make the groundwork (touring) properly before focusing on the next album. There's absolutely no reason to think that the next album wouldn't be Axl's main priority afer the tour is over. They've got lots of unreleased material, so they could easily release the next record quickly. I don't see what prevents anyone from looking forward to CD2, especially if they had the patience to wait for CD1.

optimistism is good ..helps you use your illusion....However...time is a factor now....seriously..its ticking away...given the stregnth in which Axl described his new music...whats the hold up?..Given the stregnths of this bands ability what makes an ep like LIES damn impossible? If CD 2 is anything like CD 1 ...what an insult to have to wait 15 years for it to surface. I think Axl knows that and the situation is going to require a whole new set of songs because the unreleased material....well its being held back for a reason. We like to take Axl at his word that the next album is the big guns....but im sensing that its more of the same type of material and less and less a true GNR sounding album than CD was.

Question: Does Axl really want to draw this current band into recording any more material given that the formula for being a tour band playing nostalgia songs works enough to stay in the game without requiring millions of more $$ to record and re-record material that is now 10-15 years old??

What makes an ep like LIES damn impossible? Probably the fact that people are so critical when it comes to GNR these days. They can't just release a rushed album like that and expect people to love it. They aren't the biggest band in the world anymore who can do anything they want and people enjoy it. Instead everything they do will be compared to AFD.

Personally I think that the "it's being held back for a reason" logic is a bit silly, considering that GNR have been saving big guns for later since the early days. Sure there was a reason why Don't Cry, You Could Be Mine and November Rain were not put on Appetite, but obviously the reason was not that the songs weren't good enough.

Based on what we've heard of the unreleased stuff, it sounds pretty fucking good IMO. The General was also Bach's favorite song, so it's not just Axl's words that suggest that the best is yet to come.

I don't know Axl personally, but I know he's been writing these type of lyrics: "Ask yourself why I would choose to prostitute myself to live with fortune and shame" That's why I think that he won't be satisfied being just a tour band playing nostalgia songs. He's been working hard to get his raputation back. Why on earth would he ruin everything by saying "you know what, I was just lying when I said that the next album would come out sooner than the last one. I'm actually never gonna release it. GNR is just a nostalgia act now" His ego would not allow it.

i dont find it illogical at all...once the music is in the can..its the record lable that picks and chooses what to do with it as well as a ton of other considerations including royalty cuts etc percentages and promotion etc.... If Axl had these big guns in the can as he described at Leeds and how and when they were supposed to drop....its been 5 years now..CD came and went ...So whats the hang up here? I would think that someone would and SHOULD capitalize on the moment while it lasts...this isnt a virginal rock unit here..this is NuGNR. Yet to date No new songs are played... intelligent people just want to know how come?

Everything from here on out is going to be compared to the glory days.. Until it approaches that quality or that level of authenticity ..it cannot be helped because that is what is natural and its logical as well. They held back UYI material because it didnt jive with AFD and they had enough material from club days to carry them along into the UYI era.

THere is absolutely nothing that should prevent this band from recording an EP...the fact is to date..(and its illogical) they dont do SHIT ...like its an impossible thing to do.....makes this even more "illogical" without any new information other than snippets that the band has yet to record anything together.....It is rather intelligent to wonder if its Axl or if its some other factor like the record lable.

Thats what an Ep is for..its not goddamn classical top secret shit... its talented people writing an EP- something that SHOULD be relatively easy for seasoned muscians.Lies was a success.. and it worked and TSi was intended to be another before the implosion happened and the long wait occoured. Lies was put out to keep the interest alive and to entice the fans while the production of UYI commenced. Just how long does a band actually have to be together before they record?

Clearly the source material for Axl and his lyric writting muse has abandoned him when one considers the eggs he dropped on CD's music....you simply have to either be deaf, illiterate or so deepthroated to tag the lyrics as being" masterpiece quality" ..certainly well below the expectations or the standard that Axl set himself. If no one has told Axl yet some one should...he is after all a professional.

Remember.. its not wise to take Axl at his word..He said THIS I LOVE was the heaviest thing he had ever writtern...HMMMMMM really ..you wrote the theme song for Cats2 and that is your heaviest song?. I can understand why your band had to goad you into recording it...I would be embarassed too.

You ask why would he hold back his music after what he did to record it...Who knows?...maybe he just dont feel the vibe anymore.. or the really are not as good as they may have sounded in 2001... or after the dismal way CD went down that he feels this set just dont work for what he thought they might work.. Or maybe FINK and BuCKETHEAD sued the shit out of him and he cant use the material until that matter is cleared up? There may be a logical explanation..im sure its logical to GNRs camp.

Im all for hoping that the real CD hits soon...it would be a pleasant surprise to hear and witness that GODDAM!!! IT DOESNT TAKE 15 YEARS TO WRITE 14 SONGs! With modern technology being what it is... weeks at most- not years....IF that is they have lyrics and a willing singer to sing them.

Lets be clear about something.. Axl isnt doing shit to get his reputation back.

You really think Axl let's the record lable pick which songs to put on the album? Don't be silly.

We don't know why they don't play new songs on the tour, but it's not that hard to rationalize what the reasons might be. The most efficient way to make people want something, is to not give it to them. This could be Axl's strategy, and if it is, it looks like it's working. People are getting really desperate. There might be other reasons too. Maybe Axl doesn't think his voice is good enough right now to do the songs justice? I mean when you're giving people the first impression of your upcoming album, you want it to sound as good as possible.

You clearly don't understand what Axl meant when he described This I Love as the heaviest song he's done. He didn't mean it in a heavy metal way. He meant that it was the heaviest song in an emotional way. Which I actually agree on. It's the only GNR song that's ever brought a tear in my eye.

I can understand why you feel that Axl isn't doing anything to get his reputation back. But you only need to follow the media a little bit, to see that the reputation of GNR has risen a lot since Chinese Democracy was released. And the fact that Axl's been doing interviews, starting shows earlier and stuff like that probably has something to do with it.

You're free to be as pessimistic as you want. But in my opinion the fact that Axl seems to genuinely be in a better mood than he's ever been, doesn't really imply in any way that he would have lost his writing muse and doesn't have any plans for the future of GNR and is really in the most hopeless situation he's ever been to in his life. People don't usually smile in that kind of situations.

[DieselDaisy]

I am not sure about picking the tracks but all I know is, the numerous AaR men (as well as the higher-ups such as Iovine) had a huge say on the outcome of Chinese Democracy.

[GivenToFly]

There's more money to be made in touring than in releasing an album.

[axlrod]

I'm a fan of U2 & AC/DC that it's worst I haven't heard about them.

BonJovi keeps releasing albums every 3 years but worst listening each song since the last good one, 'These Days' 1995.

The Rolling Stones and LedZep released each disappointing album.

Well, Muse and 30seconds to Mars are better to listen while waiting on others.

Metallica and GNR are still active and it's good to be a fan.

[rosesforcure]

worst still to come, another couple of years of silence-touring and nothing new!

If you think a DVD can be anough, then, lucky you.

Anoher album ??? call UMG Lost Property Office hehe

2016 (8 years still sooner than Chinese!)