What if Slash and Duff had accepted Izzy's original offer to Velvet Revolver...?

[DR DOOM]

Haha, I think Axl being "the leader of the band" is a misconception- he thought he was, and indeed now he is the boss of the D team, but it seems he was pretty much on another planet to the rest of them since day dot.

[maynard]

Axl is clearly responsible for both GN'R and new GN'R failure. When a guy has total control over a band and still fails to make it work it's clear he has issues.

Just look at all the musicians who have left Axl over the years. If you blame Slash and Duff I guess you think Robin and BH also are to blame for their departure then..

Duff and Slash shouldn't have signed the contracts? Robin, Brain and BH shouldn't have left either. But they all shared a problem. One that is not worth fighting for after a while.

[Rovim]

Haha, I think Axl being "the leader of the band" is a misconception- he thought he was, and indeed now he is the boss of the D team, but it seems he was pretty much on another planet to the rest of them since day dot.

Regardless of who you think led the band, like I said: I think it was tough working with them when Axl had to fight for them to work on songs he believed in, and the drugs didn't help. Slash had different ideas on what Guns should be about, and when they lost Izzy, for various reasons, there was no middleman anymore.

I've seen video interviews with Duff and Slash mocking Axl, like they were this one unit, and they saw Axl as someone that tried to fuck with everything they did.

"he always needs to be my nemesis" Slash said (or something like that) these little comments help me get a feel for how they viewed each other.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Rovim

[Rovim]

Axl is clearly responsible for both GN'R and new GN'R failure. When a guy has total control over a band and still fails to make it work it's clear he has issues.

Just look at all the musicians who have left Axl over the years. If you blame Slash and Duff I guess you think Robin and BH also are to blame for their departure then..

Duff and Slash shouldn't have signed the contracts? Robin, Brain and BH shouldn't have left either. But they all shared a problem. One that is not worth fighting for after a while.

You guess wrong. I think Axl lost Bucket and Robin cause he's too fuckin' slow and is late for everything.

Duff and Slash could have left Guns and not sign over the rights to the name. Could have fought for it in the court. Didn't have to give up.

It's clear Axl is not a well adjusted man lol. Never was. But that doesn't mean he alone was responsible for old Gn'R's "failure" as you call it. It's not like Slash didn't pull crazy, crazy shit, or Duff didn't almost drink himself to death. No one was what you'd call responsible. They lived on the edge, and it just so happens that Axl's addiction wasn't drugs, it was more control. And Slash wasn't exactly happy to give control to anyone else, cause like I've said, he had his own ideas and agendas imo.

[maynard]

Maybe they HAD to give up indeed to move on with their lives. To get rid of the toxic environment that GNR had become. Like Robin, BH and Brain did. It does seem unfair to put all the blame over Axl's shoulders. But I just can't think otherwise. The Josh interview I posted is a good example. He felt sorry but he HAD to leave. They were going nowhere... Now we have Ron on the same situation. Axl forced each one of them out with his pathetic "vision".

As for the old band...Solo projects would have been the best solution. After a 5 years break, reunite, start over and try to be relevant again. It's a shame it didn't happen. It's a shame Axl decided to turn GNR into his personal little toy and forced every talented musician he has played with to leave.

[Rovim]

Maybe they HAD to give up indeed to move on with their lives. To get rid of the toxic environment that GNR had become. Like Robin, BH and Brain did. It does seem unfair to put all the blame over Axl's shoulders. But I just can't think otherwise. The Josh interview I posted is a good example. He felt sorry but he HAD to leave. They were going nowhere... Now we have Ron on the same situation. Axl forced each one of them out with his pathetic "vision".

As for the old band...Solo projects would have been the best solution. After a 5 years break, reunite, start over and try to be relevant again. It's a shame it didn't happen. It's a shame Axl decided to turn GNR into his personal little toy and forced every talented musician he has played with to leave.

I just agreed with you Axl doesn't move his ass quick enough. Late as fuck until everyone gives up. As for the stupid as shit decision: no reason to fuckin' sign over the rights to what was rightfully theirs too. Axl's reason does make sense, in case they died or whatever, but seems kinda...idk. I don't know if I believe that.

I'll say it again: if they wanted, they could have quit (get rid of the toxic envirmoment without signing over the rights to the name)

Solo projects could have been a good idea, but Axl wasn't really interested in that imo. He probably viewed Guns as mostly his thing, even back then. Control.

The best solution post Guns would have been to release album after album a short time after Slash left Guns, with Duff still in the band (or not) and maintaining a consistent line up that the general public could get used to. Fleetwood Mac did it, Van Halen found success after DLR left. And a solo career was not out of the question like Ozzy managed to pull off if Axl was interested. But it wasn't all on Axl. Slash had power in the band too. He had influence. Keith said to him: "you never leave". I agree with that, even if I don't know shit about how hard it must have been for Slash and Duff, but my guess is it was hard as shit for Axl as well.

He didn't want Slash out of the band. It probably crushed him. He said he tried and tried to convince him not to quit. I think Slash regrets this decision to this day, but that's just...like...my opinion man.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Rovim

[DR DOOM]

Maybe they HAD to give up indeed to move on with their lives. To get rid of the toxic environment that GNR had become. Like Robin, BH and Brain did. It does seem unfair to put all the blame over Axl's shoulders. But I just can't think otherwise. The Josh interview I posted is a good example. He felt sorry but he HAD to leave. They were going nowhere... Now we have Ron on the same situation. Axl forced each one of them out with his pathetic "vision".

As for the old band...Solo projects would have been the best solution. After a 5 years break, reunite, start over and try to be relevant again. It's a shame it didn't happen. It's a shame Axl decided to turn GNR into his personal little toy and forced every talented musician he has played with to leave.

Fucking A.

[GUNNER PT]

Nobody in the GNR story is innocent, but it's pretty overwhelmingly obvious Axl was the main factor in things turning to shit, the other guys turned to shit largely to his tyrannic behaviours.

Man ... lets look at the facts for once.

1. Nobody in the GNR story is innocent .... when you mess with mud you get dirty.

2. In a group of people there's always someone leading ... it won't work in other way ... the leadership can be kind of shared but there's now way of 2 people decide a "yes" or "no" at the same time ... there's always someone taking the first step in a decision (the main leader, if you want)

3. Axl was the less fucked up in drugs/addictions ... and he was the frontman ... it seems natural that he had to take the leadership ...

4. Axl never was a good manager ... and he had too much shit in his personal life taking him away from the band ... other members addictions didn't helped him to get closer ... but, without him, I don't know if that lineup could last that long.

5. There was external people (lawyers/managers/whatever) wanting to see the circus on fire so they could get some advantage from it

6. Everything went wrong ... and it's natural if the leader takes the most part of the responsability for it .... it works that way, everytime, everywhere ...

Problem is ... the story was told in a way to show how malicious Axl was in all this process: he was a tyrant, he wanted the GN'R name for him, and blah blah blah ... some people can't look at GN'R without admiting that it was a bomb ready to explode since the begining .... people need to find a bad guy.

Some people around here use to tell me that I hate Slash and blah blah blah ... You won't see me saying that Slash was the "main factor in things turning to shit" ... there's no main factor, dude ... It looks like you don't understood the GN'R phenomena .... that's why it was so cool and passionate.

Maybe they HAD to give up indeed to move on with their lives. To get rid of the toxic environment that GNR had become. Like Robin, BH and Brain did. It does seem unfair to put all the blame over Axl's shoulders. But I just can't think otherwise. The Josh interview I posted is a good example. He felt sorry but he HAD to leave. They were going nowhere... Now we have Ron on the same situation. Axl forced each one of them out with his pathetic "vision".

As for the old band...Solo projects would have been the best solution. After a 5 years break, reunite, start over and try to be relevant again. It's a shame it didn't happen. It's a shame Axl decided to turn GNR into his personal little toy and forced every talented musician he has played with to leave.

Fucking A.

I love your permanent harmony

Edited August 22, 2014 by GUNNER PT

[maynard]

what's a sintony?

[DR DOOM]

Well you could blame everybody but Axl, but take all those guys away and give Axl the reins and not only does the pattern repeat itself, it gets worse...much worse.

Axl's nuttier than squirrel shit, he doesn't need to drink or get fucked up to be crazy, he's already on another planet.

You and me arguing about it doesn't change what only a fool can't see.

[Rovim]

Well you could blame everybody but Axl, but take all those guys away and give Axl the reins and not only does the pattern repeat itself, it gets worse...much worse.

Axl's nuttier than squirrel shit, he doesn't need to drink or get fucked up to be crazy, he's already on another planet.

You and me arguing about it doesn't change what only a fool can't see.

So because Axl is crazy, he should get blamed for all of it, or most of it, without really knowing what the fuck happened there? That doesn't make sense to me.

[GUNNER PT]

what's a sintony?

What are you talking about? -.-

Well you could blame everybody but Axl, but take all those guys away and give Axl the reins and not only does the pattern repeat itself, it gets worse...much worse.

Axl's nuttier than squirrel shit, he doesn't need to drink or get fucked up to be crazy, he's already on another planet.

You and me arguing about it doesn't change what only a fool can't see.

So because Axl is crazy, he should get blamed for all of it, or most of it, without really knowing what the fuck happened there? That doesn't make sense to me.

Problem is, people always gives a malicious character to Axl when they blame him ...

Can't you see that the guy is an artist? He just doesn't have the management skills ...

[DR DOOM]

Well you could blame everybody but Axl, but take all those guys away and give Axl the reins and not only does the pattern repeat itself, it gets worse...much worse.

Axl's nuttier than squirrel shit, he doesn't need to drink or get fucked up to be crazy, he's already on another planet.

You and me arguing about it doesn't change what only a fool can't see.

So because Axl is crazy, he should get blamed for all of it, or most of it, without really knowing what the fuck happened there? That doesn't make sense to me.

Hang on, check out my earlier posts.

I said no one party is innocent, but Axl's prima donna bullshit was the main factor in things going down the shitter- you can say we don't know but anybody without the blinkers on or pushing an agenda knows damn well who sunk the ship.

[GUNNER PT]

Axl have 1 album without Slash ...

Slash have, what(?), 7 albums without Axl?

You can't excuse Axl ....

[Rovim]

Well you could blame everybody but Axl, but take all those guys away and give Axl the reins and not only does the pattern repeat itself, it gets worse...much worse.

Axl's nuttier than squirrel shit, he doesn't need to drink or get fucked up to be crazy, he's already on another planet.

You and me arguing about it doesn't change what only a fool can't see.

So because Axl is crazy, he should get blamed for all of it, or most of it, without really knowing what the fuck happened there? That doesn't make sense to me.

Hang on, check out my earlier posts.

I said no one party is innocent, but Axl's prima donna bullshit was the main factor in things going down the shitter- you can say we don't know but anybody without the blinkers on or pushing an agenda knows damn well who sunk the ship.

But that's just the thing: we really don't know. I'm not just saying that to be right or whatever. What do we know? How many times have Axl spoken about it? he said tip of the iceberg, and we don't know enough from both sides imo. How do you know it was Axl's prima donna bullshit that was the main factor in things going down the shitter, when you don't know all the factors? Slash seems to be too diplomatic to get a straight answer from in too many cases imo. Duff said he had a part in old Guns demise, that everybody had a part in it, to an extent.

You question the honesty of those who think there is something more to the story here, when you and everybody else don't know who to believe. Can't judge it before you collect enough info from both sides.

Usually, those who has the most power are those who get blamed, and sometimes for good reason: they decide, so they influence the situation the most. But you yourself said Axl wasn't the leader. To me it seems Axl and Slash were the captains, but Axl had a little more influence imo. Slash had the power to hurt the band too.

If one day Axl talks about it, maybe we can have a less biased view on the whole situation, but until then, even a real insider like Canter didn't convince me Axl sunk the ship, mostly on his own.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Rovim

[GUNNER PT]

what's a sintony?

It's the thing you're referring to in your sig....

Oh wait... that's a symphony .... my fckn bad english

[DR DOOM]

Axl have 1 album without Slash ...

Slash have, what(?), 7 albums without Axl?

You can't excuse Axl ....

Exactly.

Slash has worked with a lot of the same people for decades too, yet with Axl the norm is the bridge is burned and a grudge is taken out.

With Axl, it's ALWAYS somebody else's fault, yet he has been the guy behind the wheel since 98 or whatever.

[Rovim]

Axl have 1 album without Slash ...

Slash have, what(?), 7 albums without Axl?

You can't excuse Axl ....

What? you can't excuse Axl from being late to everything. Other then that... I don't know how the quantity of albums made is proof to anything else.

Difficult to work with? yeah no shit. But that doesn't mean he was guilty of destroying the band mainly by himself. Many musicians are difficult to work with, and still find a way to work shit out, to keep it together. Like The Stones for example. They don't like each other, but both sides were willing to do everything in their power to keep the shit goin'.

[GUNNER PT]

Axl have 1 album without Slash ...

Slash have, what(?), 7 albums without Axl?

You can't excuse Axl ....

Exactly.

Slash has worked with a lot of the same people for decades too, yet with Axl the norm is the bridge is burned and a grudge is taken out.

With Axl, it's ALWAYS somebody else's fault, yet he has been the guy behind the wheel since 98 or whatever.

But .... his inability doesn't make him a malicious guy, like some people tried to paint

[DR DOOM]

Well you could blame everybody but Axl, but take all those guys away and give Axl the reins and not only does the pattern repeat itself, it gets worse...much worse.

Axl's nuttier than squirrel shit, he doesn't need to drink or get fucked up to be crazy, he's already on another planet.

You and me arguing about it doesn't change what only a fool can't see.

So because Axl is crazy, he should get blamed for all of it, or most of it, without really knowing what the fuck happened there? That doesn't make sense to me.

Hang on, check out my earlier posts.

I said no one party is innocent, but Axl's prima donna bullshit was the main factor in things going down the shitter- you can say we don't know but anybody without the blinkers on or pushing an agenda knows damn well who sunk the ship.

But that's just the thing: we really don't know. I'm not just saying that to be right or whatever. What do we know? How many times have Axl spoken about it? he said tip of the iceberg, and we don't know enough from both sides imo. How do you know it was Axl's prima donna bullshit that was the main factor in things going down the shitter, when you don't know all the factors? Slash seems to be too diplomatic to get a straight answer from in too many cases imo. Duff said he had a part in old Guns demise, that everybody had a part in it, to an extent.

You question the honesty of those who there is something more to the story here, when you and everybody else don't know who to believe. Can't judge it before you collect enough info from both sides.

Usually, those who has the most power are those who get blamed, and sometimes for good reason: they decide, so they influence the situation the most. Buy you yourself said Axl wasn't the leader. To me it seems Axl and Slash were the captains, but Axl had a little more influence imo. Slash had the power to hurt the band too.

If one day Axl talks about it, maybe we can have a less biased view on the whole situation, but until then, even an real insider like Canter didn't convince me Axl sunk the ship, mostly on his own.

I don't really believe much of what Axl says, to be honest...he has a great way of saying a lot of nothing and has a bad track record when it comes to what he says is going to happen actually happening.

Even if Axl wasn't mostly responsible for ruining Guns N Roses, who is responsible for the long, continuous string of disasters and fuck ups his new band has been?

[GUNNER PT]

Well you could blame everybody but Axl, but take all those guys away and give Axl the reins and not only does the pattern repeat itself, it gets worse...much worse.

Axl's nuttier than squirrel shit, he doesn't need to drink or get fucked up to be crazy, he's already on another planet.

You and me arguing about it doesn't change what only a fool can't see.

So because Axl is crazy, he should get blamed for all of it, or most of it, without really knowing what the fuck happened there? That doesn't make sense to me.

Hang on, check out my earlier posts.

I said no one party is innocent, but Axl's prima donna bullshit was the main factor in things going down the shitter- you can say we don't know but anybody without the blinkers on or pushing an agenda knows damn well who sunk the ship.

But that's just the thing: we really don't know. I'm not just saying that to be right or whatever. What do we know? How many times have Axl spoken about it? he said tip of the iceberg, and we don't know enough from both sides imo. How do you know it was Axl's prima donna bullshit that was the main factor in things going down the shitter, when you don't know all the factors? Slash seems to be too diplomatic to get a straight answer from in too many cases imo. Duff said he had a part in old Guns demise, that everybody had a part in it, to an extent.

You question the honesty of those who there is something more to the story here, when you and everybody else don't know who to believe. Can't judge it before you collect enough info from both sides.

Usually, those who has the most power are those who get blamed, and sometimes for good reason: they decide, so they influence the situation the most. Buy you yourself said Axl wasn't the leader. To me it seems Axl and Slash were the captains, but Axl had a little more influence imo. Slash had the power to hurt the band too.

If one day Axl talks about it, maybe we can have a less biased view on the whole situation, but until then, even an real insider like Canter didn't convince me Axl sunk the ship, mostly on his own.

I don't really believe much of what Axl says, to be honest...he has a great way of saying a lot of nothing and has a bad track record when it comes to what he says is going to happen actually happening.

Even if Axl wasn't mostly responsible for ruining Guns N Roses, who is responsible for the long, continuous string of disasters and fuck ups his new band has been?

Salsh?

[maynard]

If NuGNR were a functioning band, I wouldn't blame Axl so much for the original GNR break-up. If Robin, Josh, Buckethead, Brain, Ron (?), producers, managers hadn't quit (been fired), I'd give Axl the benefit of doubt. Using only what I can see as a proof, not knowing the behind the scenes stories and not claming to do so, it's clear it's all on Axl. He couldn't make his hired band work. I guess that alone is proof enough.

[Rovim]

Well you could blame everybody but Axl, but take all those guys away and give Axl the reins and not only does the pattern repeat itself, it gets worse...much worse.

Axl's nuttier than squirrel shit, he doesn't need to drink or get fucked up to be crazy, he's already on another planet.

You and me arguing about it doesn't change what only a fool can't see.

So because Axl is crazy, he should get blamed for all of it, or most of it, without really knowing what the fuck happened there? That doesn't make sense to me.

Hang on, check out my earlier posts.

I said no one party is innocent, but Axl's prima donna bullshit was the main factor in things going down the shitter- you can say we don't know but anybody without the blinkers on or pushing an agenda knows damn well who sunk the ship.

But that's just the thing: we really don't know. I'm not just saying that to be right or whatever. What do we know? How many times have Axl spoken about it? he said tip of the iceberg, and we don't know enough from both sides imo. How do you know it was Axl's prima donna bullshit that was the main factor in things going down the shitter, when you don't know all the factors? Slash seems to be too diplomatic to get a straight answer from in too many cases imo. Duff said he had a part in old Guns demise, that everybody had a part in it, to an extent.

You question the honesty of those who there is something more to the story here, when you and everybody else don't know who to believe. Can't judge it before you collect enough info from both sides.

Usually, those who has the most power are those who get blamed, and sometimes for good reason: they decide, so they influence the situation the most. Buy you yourself said Axl wasn't the leader. To me it seems Axl and Slash were the captains, but Axl had a little more influence imo. Slash had the power to hurt the band too.

If one day Axl talks about it, maybe we can have a less biased view on the whole situation, but until then, even an real insider like Canter didn't convince me Axl sunk the ship, mostly on his own.

I don't really believe much of what Axl says, to be honest...he has a great way of saying a lot of nothing and has a bad track record when it comes to what he says is going to happen actually happening.

Even if Axl wasn't mostly responsible for ruining Guns N Roses, who is responsible for the long, continuous string of disasters and fuck ups his new band has been?

Axl is. But that's cause he's insecure as shit and doesn't make his move when he should. With old Guns, he didn't have that control over the band. Complete control like he has now. Tbh, I don't really believe much of what Slash says. I don't think he even remembers important shit from back then, and some of what he does remember can hurt how he is percieved by the media and the public. He has a great way of manipulating the situation to his advantage. So I take his words with a grain of salt.

If NuGNR were a functioning band, I wouldn't blame Axl so much for the original GNR break-up. If Robin, Josh, Buckethead, Brain, Ron (?), producers, managers hadn't quit (been fired), I'd give Axl the benefit of doubt. Using only what I can see as a proof, not knowing the behind the scenes stories and not claming to do so, it's clear it's all on Axl. He couldn't make his hired band work. I guess that alone is proof enough.

No it isn't, cause like I just explained to Doom, back then, in old Guns, Axl didn't have total control over the band. Slash had power too, He wasn't a hired employee and he used his power to solidify his pull in the band. It wasn't the same situation at all back then imo.

[GUNNER PT]

What if Slash and Duff had accepted Izzy's original offer to Velvet Revolver...?

[Rovim]

What if Slash and Duff had accepted Izzy's original offer to Velvet Revolver...?

Please stay on topic.