What if Slash and Duff had accepted Izzy's original offer to Velvet Revolver...?

[WhazUp]

With VR I am glad they went the direction they did with Contraband - great riffs, great vocals. I don't know if a punk rock vocal thing with sheer atttude being more present than singing ability would have been as cool as having a person like Scott there

Even though Libertad wasn't great because of a lot of what Scott did, his work on Contraband was great and I am glad they at least accomplished that much

[Rovim]

With VR I am glad they went the direction they did with Contraband - great riffs, great vocals. I don't know if a punk rock vocal thing with sheer atttude being more present than singing ability would have been as cool as having a person like Scott there

Even though Libertad wasn't great because of a lot of what Scott did, his work on Contraband was great and I am glad they at least accomplished that much

And Scott was actually a big part of the writing process. Way more then just coming up with vocal melodies and lyrics. Fucking Dave Kushner said so in a recent interview. Don't think it could have worked that well without him.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Rovim

[Rovim]

Instead Slash is out there with that duck voiced guy and a bunch of nobodies so that they won't steal his spotlight. It's really a shame.

Your topic was interesting until you ended it with that.

You don't like Myles voice? Cool. I couldn't stand Scott's voice. Personal preference.

But Slash is touring with a band that is a bunch of nobodies so they "won't steal his spotlight" is just an idiotic thing to say.

It would have been the first step for a reunion, but no, they were too dumb to think about it ...

Don't forget that Slash was still high at that time ... he was not able to make good decisions ... like when he decided to leave GN'R.

At least your consistent. Wrong, and funny. But consistent.

***********

Rovin - but seriously, that really is just your opinion. You don't know that Slash and Duff feel the same way.

First off - Izzy, who was Axl's best buddy - was the first one to take his guitar and quit the band. People always seem to give him a pass for some reason.

Maybe Slash and Duff were so miserable with Axl and with what GnR had become that they were relieved to get out of the cesspool that the band had become. Axl completely distancing himself from the rest of the band, becoming a dictator of the band, showing up 2-3 hours late for shows, not showing up at all for shows, spending the hundreds of thousands of dollars on the backstage parties, etc, etc, etc.

I bet that those guys wish the band would have been able to stay together and release more music. But I highly doubt that Slash and Duff are sitting at home at night crying in their ice cream about their decision to quit.

Both Slash and Duff seem like musicians who love to write, record and release music, and to tour. HOW happy would they have been staying in GnR if Axl would have kept up his dictatorship, if Axl would have disappeared for years at a time, if The Beta and her kids had taken over the band's management, and GnR would have toured off-and-on and ONLY released one album after Spag Incident.

Ask Duff or Slash if they'd rather had their careers since 1996-2014, or been a part of the GnR that we've seen from 1996-2014. You really think that either of those guys - or Izzy - would pick GnR? Slash, Duff and Izzy have been releasing albums and touring the world. GnR? One album. Random touring.

IMO, all three of those guys wish GnR would have stayed together. But I really doubt any of them regret quitting.

It's Rovim Groghan, not Rovin. Get it right, sir. and yeah, it's my opinion, I can't read minds. (yet)

It is also my opinion dey gun fooked it.

[ludurigan]

This is what IZZY SLASH DUFF & MATT sound like

Now PLEASE NOTE how Izzy sings Mr, Brownstone completely UNLIKE Axl and it... sounds so fucking great

Edited August 21, 2014 by ludurigan

[DR DOOM]

I think you and I have a very different interpretation of what "fucking great" sounds like...

[maynard]

She loves me .. she send me million(s ) of PM's.

Sure. I sent the pm. Sure.

Edited August 21, 2014 by ProstituteComa

[Rovim]

She loves me .. she send me million(s ) of PM's.

Sure. I sent the pm. Sure.

The sexual energy between you two is off the charts.

[moreblack]

This is what IZZY SLASH DUFF & MATT sound like

good jam, funny how they just jump back on it so naturally and make it sound 100% more genuine than any other group of musicians playing that material can.

[Nosaj Thing]

This is what IZZY SLASH DUFF & MATT sound like

good jam, funny how they just jump back on it so naturally and make it sound 100% more genuine than any other group of musicians playing that material can.

It's because they wrote and recorded that song.

[GUNNER PT]

She loves me .. she send me million(s ) of PM's.

Sure. I sent the pm. Sure.

The sexual energy between you two is off the charts.

[AIC04]

Not without a good lead singer.....

[War2k14]

I'd rather hear a finished version of Down by the Ocean than anything the new guys could write. Axl and Izzy = Amazing. Axl, Izzy, Slash and Duff = Magic. Axl and rotating guest musicians = kinda cool.

How can you compare Down By The Ocean, a song you've never heard, with something that could potentially be written by Axl and "the new guys"?

You can't base that on reputation alone, you know what they sound like, but it's not like every time a musician attemps to write something it sounds the same, or is in the same quality or exact style. I guess the main known element here is chemistry, but it's just one factor in the equation. As major and relevant as it might be.

I don't think Axl really tried to write organically with most of "the new guys", and what Axl and Izzy had in their prime, and the classics they've written together is not what you're going to get from them now if they somehow magically decided to work together after all these years as writing partners. Things change, people get old, and the music they create changes with them in most cases.

It would have been the first step for a reunion, but no, they were too dumb to think about it ...

Don't forget that Slash was still high at that time ... he was not able to make good decisions ... like when he decided to leave GN'R.

At least your consistent. Wrong, and funny. But consistent.

I'll take that as a compliment :P

You seem to be in a bad mood lately, Rovim. And more bloated.

As for us fuckers sticking together. There are always other forums...

Would you like me to leave this forum?

I'm actually in a good mood, thanks for caring.

More bloated though.

Nah, I like you. Just saying... Hope you start cracking some jokes soon then!

And me ... do you like me?

Yo asshole, she said she liked me. Find your own sleeping prostitute. My whole self esteem is hangin' on this shit.

But Izzy writes riffs... and they're usually good. Something that I find totally lacking on CD... Good Riffs.

[Rovim]

I'd rather hear a finished version of Down by the Ocean than anything the new guys could write. Axl and Izzy = Amazing. Axl, Izzy, Slash and Duff = Magic. Axl and rotating guest musicians = kinda cool.

How can you compare Down By The Ocean, a song you've never heard, with something that could potentially be written by Axl and "the new guys"?

You can't base that on reputation alone, you know what they sound like, but it's not like every time a musician attemps to write something it sounds the same, or is in the same quality or exact style. I guess the main known element here is chemistry, but it's just one factor in the equation. As major and relevant as it might be.

I don't think Axl really tried to write organically with most of "the new guys", and what Axl and Izzy had in their prime, and the classics they've written together is not what you're going to get from them now if they somehow magically decided to work together after all these years as writing partners. Things change, people get old, and the music they create changes with them in most cases.

It would have been the first step for a reunion, but no, they were too dumb to think about it ...

Don't forget that Slash was still high at that time ... he was not able to make good decisions ... like when he decided to leave GN'R.

At least your consistent. Wrong, and funny. But consistent.

I'll take that as a compliment :P

You seem to be in a bad mood lately, Rovim. And more bloated.

As for us fuckers sticking together. There are always other forums...

Would you like me to leave this forum?

I'm actually in a good mood, thanks for caring.

More bloated though.

Nah, I like you. Just saying... Hope you start cracking some jokes soon then!

And me ... do you like me?

Yo asshole, she said she liked me. Find your own sleeping prostitute. My whole self esteem is hangin' on this shit.

But Izzy writes riffs... and they're usually good. Something that I find totally lacking on CD... Good Riffs.

Many cool riffs on Chinese. Bucket's Better bridge riff, Fortus Better Chorus riff, Shackler's too. There Was A Time has one in the "it was a long time for you" section, and before Bucket's outro, Robin has a really cool one.

Riad has a badass riff, I.R.S verse riff is pretty good, and those are just off the top of my head. Sometimes there are riffs that are played on other riffs. Bumble does a lot of them that are actually pretty sleazy.

[War2k14]

While I do enjoy some of the riffs, mainly better... I just don't see the other riffs of anything special to be gloated about under the GNR name. It's all a matter of personal opinion. I think they should have kept the dissonant chords in the TWAT 'long time' section tho instead of changing them to regular power chords. With so many musicians recording at so many different points my main gripe is a lack of guitar chemistry on the album. Bucketheads solo on TWAT is amazing but the riff under it is just generic and repetitive, where as guns n' roses riffs back in the day used to really grove and be something special. IRS is another basic and boring riff in my opinion. Bumble's contribution especially in the title track did help try and add some umph to the equation, but the band not being able to rework the track, and being forced to just layer it individually limited what the quality of the final product could be

Edited August 22, 2014 by War2k14

[Rovim]

While I do enjoy some of the riffs, mainly better... I just don't see the other riffs of anything special to be gloated about under the GNR name. It's all a matter of personal opinion. I think they should have kept the dissonant chords in the TWAT 'long time' section tho instead of changing them to regular power chords. With so many musicians recording at so many different points my main gripe is a lack of guitar chemistry on the album. Bucketheads solo on TWAT is amazing but the riff under it is just generic and repetitive, where as guns n' roses riffs back in the day used to really grove and be something special. IRS is another basic and boring riff in my opinion. Bumble's contribution especially in the title track did help try and add some umph to the equation, but the band not being able to rework the track, and being forced to just layer it individually limited what the quality of the final product could be

Not an excuse, but I don't think the focus here was to make something closer to a riff rock album like in AFD or some parts of UYI. There is a cool riff in almost every Chinese song imo. Sometimes even more then one. The production also makes it harder to hear some of the riffs that are being played, unless you're listening through headphones.

And the guitar chemistry is one of the highlights on Chinese imo: especially Bucket's and Robin's styles. No one can write riffs like Slash and Izzy used to write. So don't expect that, but there are a lot of cool riffs on Chinese but they serve a different purpose like for example Robin's main Better riff: you can call it a generic NIN riff, but it's not. Not really, and Axl needed that specific riff to sing that great melody over it. And then Fortus came up with that mean chorus riff that perfectly fits with Robin's 2 riffs. (the now I know you better part)

There are many more examples, but I urge you to listen to the album with headphones. I think you'll discover cool riffs that you even didn't notice. Just sayin' cause that's what happened to me when I went back and listened to it again.

Or you just don't care for that style of playing, and you don't think the riffs are any good.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Rovim

[DieselDaisy]

None of Chinese Democracy's riffs have grease. They are all just bland modern rock jobs. That is the bit that Izzy (and Slash) provided. That is the bit that Axl misses. Axl has had these technical players, BFs and Bucketheads, yet not one of them can write a riff as good as Mr Brownstone.

[Rovim]

None of Chinese Democracy's riffs have grease. They are all just bland modern rock jobs. That is the bit that Izzy (and Slash) provided. That is the bit that Axl misses. Axl has had these technical players, BFs and Bucketheads, yet not one of them can write a riff as good as Mr Brownstone.

Bucket is a riff machine, I don't know what you're talkin' about. He writes in his own style. Of course he can't write in the style of Izzy. Robin's There Was A Time riff, after his lyrical solo is fucked up in a good way. These guys know how to write riffs. Just not ones you seem to enjoy. Doesn't mean the riffs they come up with are no good. Matter of taste I suppose.

[Hollywood Gunner]

that nobody guy

[willl]

I'd love to get my hands on those Izzy/Slash/Duff/Taz recordings. I'm guessing most of the songs were reused on Like A Dog so they might not be "new" songs, but would be great hearing Duff and Slash on that material just for comparison.

[War2k14]

While I do enjoy some of the riffs, mainly better... I just don't see the other riffs of anything special to be gloated about under the GNR name. It's all a matter of personal opinion. I think they should have kept the dissonant chords in the TWAT 'long time' section tho instead of changing them to regular power chords. With so many musicians recording at so many different points my main gripe is a lack of guitar chemistry on the album. Bucketheads solo on TWAT is amazing but the riff under it is just generic and repetitive, where as guns n' roses riffs back in the day used to really grove and be something special. IRS is another basic and boring riff in my opinion. Bumble's contribution especially in the title track did help try and add some umph to the equation, but the band not being able to rework the track, and being forced to just layer it individually limited what the quality of the final product could be

Not an excuse, but I don't think the focus here was to make something closer to a riff rock album like in AFD or some parts of UYI. There is a cool riff in almost every Chinese song imo. Sometimes even more then one. The production also makes it harder to hear some of the riffs that are being played, unless you're listening through headphones.

And the guitar chemistry imo is one of the highlights on Chinese imo: especially Bucket's and Robin's styles. No one can write riffs like Slash and Izzy used to write. So don't expect that, but there are a lot of cool riffs on Chinese but they serve a different purpose like for example Robin's main Better riff: you can call it a generic NIN riff, but it's not. Not really, and Axl needed that specific riff to sing that great melody over it. And then Fortus came up with that mean chorus riff that perfectly fits with Robin's 2 riffs. (the now I know you better part)

There are many more examples, but I urge you to listen to the album with headphones. I think you'll discover cool riffs that you even didn't notice. Just sayin' cause that's what happened to me when I went back and listened to it again.

Or you just don't care for that style of playing, and you don't think the riffs are any good.

Guitar chemistry. Listen to AFD with headphones and you'll hear what guitar chemistry is as Slash comes through one channel and Izzy comes through another.

The guitars get so muddled with what.. five players on the title track. I like Bucketheads solos.. guitar wise that's one of the highlights... But as far as rhythm is concerned... nothing special. Better is pretty great at times. But I have listened with headphones.. and with surround sound... It's just too muddled. I enjoy the early demos much better. Especially TWAT IRS and Catcher.. The songs have more room to breath.

I just don't think the band ever had a chance to build chemistry in the writing process. I enjoy the musicianship on many of the songs... I just don't think its a solid guitar album.

[Rovim]

While I do enjoy some of the riffs, mainly better... I just don't see the other riffs of anything special to be gloated about under the GNR name. It's all a matter of personal opinion. I think they should have kept the dissonant chords in the TWAT 'long time' section tho instead of changing them to regular power chords. With so many musicians recording at so many different points my main gripe is a lack of guitar chemistry on the album. Bucketheads solo on TWAT is amazing but the riff under it is just generic and repetitive, where as guns n' roses riffs back in the day used to really grove and be something special. IRS is another basic and boring riff in my opinion. Bumble's contribution especially in the title track did help try and add some umph to the equation, but the band not being able to rework the track, and being forced to just layer it individually limited what the quality of the final product could be

Not an excuse, but I don't think the focus here was to make something closer to a riff rock album like in AFD or some parts of UYI. There is a cool riff in almost every Chinese song imo. Sometimes even more then one. The production also makes it harder to hear some of the riffs that are being played, unless you're listening through headphones.

And the guitar chemistry imo is one of the highlights on Chinese imo: especially Bucket's and Robin's styles. No one can write riffs like Slash and Izzy used to write. So don't expect that, but there are a lot of cool riffs on Chinese but they serve a different purpose like for example Robin's main Better riff: you can call it a generic NIN riff, but it's not. Not really, and Axl needed that specific riff to sing that great melody over it. And then Fortus came up with that mean chorus riff that perfectly fits with Robin's 2 riffs. (the now I know you better part)

There are many more examples, but I urge you to listen to the album with headphones. I think you'll discover cool riffs that you even didn't notice. Just sayin' cause that's what happened to me when I went back and listened to it again.

Or you just don't care for that style of playing, and you don't think the riffs are any good.

Guitar chemistry. Listen to AFD with headphones and you'll hear what guitar chemistry is as Slash comes through one channel and Izzy comes through another.

The guitars get so muddled with what.. five players on the title track. I like Bucketheads solos.. guitar wise that's one of the highlights... But as far as rhythm is concerned... nothing special. Better is pretty great at times. But I have listened with headphones.. and with surround sound... It's just too muddled. I enjoy the early demos much better. Especially TWAT IRS and Catcher.. The songs have more room to breath.

I just don't think the band ever had a chance to build chemistry in the writing process. I enjoy the musicianship on many of the songs... I just don't think its a solid guitar album.

Oh I've listened to AFD with headphones many times. It's brilliant. Gn'R's only masterpiece imo. But it's very different compared to Chinese in that it's a different approach. You can't expect that intertwined guitars thing like in AFD. It's not like they ever had that again. But even if it was lacking on UYI, there were other cool guitar shit in there, and imo, there are other cool guitar moments, and many of them on Chinese. It is very guitar driven, and Robin and Bucket complete each other musically.

Like in There Was A Time, the 1999 demo was cool, and Robin's minimalistic solo is great, but there was something missing there, and it was the release of the song with Bucket's outro. Or in the song Chinese Democracy where Robin's and Bucket's solos feel like one piece cause it fits perfectly.

I'm not trying to change your opinion, just explaining what I like about those Chinese guitars. Both of the styles really worked. Robin's way of playing contrasted Bucket's so well. Like in Better when you get the best of both worlds: Robin's bluesy solo with his sharp, piercing tone, and Bucket's bridge riff that added a new dimension to the song. Even Fortus added his crucial piece to the puzzle in the chorus.

[Crash Diet]

I'd love to get my hands on those Izzy/Slash/Duff/Taz recordings. I'm guessing most of the songs were reused on Like A Dog so they might not be "new" songs, but would be great hearing Duff and Slash on that material just for comparison.

hooly shit you still have an account here?

[Rovim]

It would have been the first step for a reunion, but no, they were too dumb to think about it ...

Don't forget that Slash was still high at that time ... he was not able to make good decisions ... like when he decided to leave GN'R.

Yeah

But clean dudes like Axl made great decisions.....

Better then signing over your rights to the biggest band in the world though... That's high.

Kind of reminds me of an exchange between the Viscountess Astor and Winston Churhill in which the viscountess exclaimed that if Churchill were her husband, she would poison his tea!

To which Churchill rejoined "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." Sometimes, one must drink the poison to rid the disease..

Never mind that Axl was threating to boycott his participation in the upcoming album release and world tour. Never mind that it was just a simple ..'in the event of a breakup" that Axl would retain the rights to the GNR name.. which was something he brought to the table and that the rest of them agreed to... nothing like a bit of blackmail to crowbar the whole organization with.

Who would have known that Axl would quit his band .. take the name with him and then attempt to put the legacy band on retainer just like he is right here and right now?

Imagine going from being vice president of a corporation with all the luxery and comforts, power , wealth and fame to being the chai walla coffe server.

Imagine being held hostage to Axls "muse", his psycoanalyst , his aura reader, his housekeeper etc.,his accountant, His good buddy from Indiana etc.. (for a discusion on that.. contact Robin, Buckethead, Dizzy, Tommy, Ron and BBF..and DJ if it needed)

Exactly! Hence, my anecdote.

But you and Rockerman are having a tough time admitting that it was a dumb mistake. Your cute anecdote doesn't change what happened that day when Slash and Duff signed over the name to Axl. And yes, I would have fought tooth and nail against anyone who would have tried to take what I've worked so hard to build. No question about that. And not just me. Many people everyday don't make stupid fuckin' decisions.

Like i said in agreeing with you-. it was a stupid choice..with many factors involved. No doubt about it. Ignorant to a degree of stupidity IN RETROSPECT. Like the old saying goes The reason the world is made round was because we are not meant to see too far down the road."

But some of the factors being known as they are- its still is a thankless position to be in. Before During and After. Mr. Last Man Standing still presented them with a shitshow of a situation. Threatening to NOT release UYIs, THreating not to promote GNR, Threatening to not take the stage on tour and all of this with the background knowledge of what was going on post AFD Pre UYI era of GNR and knowing what Axl was very capable of. Had demonstrated it all along. Was known for it. Expected to do it.

The marginalization that was occouring with people in the corporation, Axls personal life that held up the situation , his tendency to do it his way on his time regardless of the band and the management etc.. and least of all the Fans.

You take all of the excess and the situations like St. Luis and Montreal into account, the delays taking stage, the uncertainty if Axl is actually in the building at showtime ...the wave of lawsuits that are coming toward your corporation like a tidal wave largely created by a rougue member of your band...Lawsuits that could and would drain the CORPORATIONS wealth and lock them into decades long litigation. Not hard to say Fuck That! Hard not resent the living shit out the situation. Hard not to want to punch the perpertraitor in the face.. the traitor. Suddenly your dealing with condesention and judgement from a man you used to do lines of Cocaine with?

A man you Used to fucking regard as a friend, a guy you used to trust and rely upon..and now what was a collective vision as a gang becomes SOLE vision of the singer. ONE member of the unit!?

HOWS THAT VISION WORKING OUT FOR YOU WORLD?!!!? Digging the shit out of decades of speculation and rumours and innuendo? Catching the high off GNR these days?! Digging the nostalgia show?

You get off the road and are faced with YEARS of idleness, Years of Delays, Years of lawsuits after lawsuits to get resolved... largely because of ONE member. You know from past experience that confronting him about it is only going to make him burn the house down. You turn your communications over to a fucking lawyer and they rape you as lawyers are trained to do. YOu listen to the shit coming out of beggers and hangers on. Held hostage to Axls personal timeline, his moods, his motivations and his ways of doing things

....And like Duff said... the core of GNR stopped communicating and went to intermediarys to discuss anything.

Then show up one day and find you no longer have any say in the direction or the sound of the band and who the personel are going to be... You realize that that clause also castrated you because what?! a level of trust in Axl?! You find that Axl has formed a new corporation taking the GNR name solely as his and IF YOU WANT TO PLAY BY HIS RULES you might get to be part of the big picture. If you want to cooperate with what he WANTS to do, how he wants to sound then you can keep your old job HOWEVER you will not have any say so in business matters , direction, sound, image and management etc.. Duff held on until it became obvious to him what the story was going to be. And its safe to say WE KNOW now how the story goes.

From here in this place and time its not a reach to see where and why some people would break. Not a hard answer to a problematic question. Surely Axl wouldnt be as stupid and as selfish to utterly destroy GNR to get his way? Surely, despite their personal differences Axl could be reasoned with and worked with to keep the GNR machine in play?! Surely he was smart enough and savy enough to realize and know that the world loved GNR as they were and all of the band members? Surely Axl could see that phenomenon of GNR was bigger than the 5 players and thier petty differences?!

Nonetheless, as i see the whole story in context, I resent the shit out of each and every one of them for not getting thier shit together and keeping it together. Adler for his stupidity and lack of will, Slash and Duff for being passive for too long, Izzy for not sticking in there and making it happen and Axl for all the shit that reduce GNR to a nostalgia act.

But to return to topic: Too bad that the band didn't IMMEDIATELY regroup with Izzy in the fold and continue on ... If and when- Axl-if he indeed gave a shit could guest.. perhaps do a few numbers for old time sake and then trot off to Malibu and do his Howard Hughs act on whim and will... maybe write an album with some hired help and continue to live his vision out....

Alright. Caved in and read all of it. I must say: biggest pile of shit I've read all week. You give Slash and Duff a pass, and saying you resent them for being passive. You are very selective with who you choose to blame. You say we know shit that we really have no way of knowing, you ignore the fact Duff admitted he had a part in the shit ending up the way it did, you ignore Slash's unwilligness to try and work shit out, and you choose to not believe a word Axl said about that, when you label a lot of what Slash said about it as truth.

But we don't know. And what probably happened there was that Axl was out of control with his appetite for power, and Slash thought he could just quit the band as a power play and return cause my guess is he never actually believed there could be a Guns N' Roses without him. That shit hurt the trust between Axl and Slash imo. (the little trust that was left at that point) This feeling of importance probably led him to play Axl what will become Fall To Pieces and not letting Axl be a part of that, and the shut up and sing comment? seems likely to me. And where was Izzy's guitar on UYI? and why did Slash say he never liked to play with Izzy? he fuckin' said that. I don't have a source, but I know for a fact I've read it in one of his interviews a few years back, and when Izzy returned in 1993 to help the band out when Gilby broke his hand, Slash wanted Izzy to be gone, and Izzy couldn't wait to fuck off from there if you believe Axl. Slash was no angel.

There's a bunch of other shit you've mentioned that I can counter with my own view on it, but it's too much man. I think you choose to see it, like many others here, as black and white, forgetting that it took all of them to burn old Guns to the ground. I also don't think it's easy to deal with junkies, and it was probably a big challenge for Axl. Starting with Stevie.

They didn't communicate, Slash was talkin' too much to the media, Axl brought Paul Huge without Slash's permission which was a huge cunt move, the Snakepit thing came in an unfortunate timing, they lost Izzy cause Izzy wanted to be clean, the whole operation got too big, and it wasn't only because Axl was being a fuckin' asshole to him. Not just one reason, not all on Axl probably, and we don't KNOW enough for you to present shit like you were actually there when shit hit the fan. And btw, I blame you for my long ass post.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Rovim

[DR DOOM]

Just cherry picking one thing here, but Slash said something negative about Izzy what, once?

Axl took Izzy to task numerous times, from his pulpit on the stage...used to dedicate songs to him in hatred.

Nobody in the GNR story is innocent, but it's pretty overwhelmingly obvious Axl was the main factor in things turning to shit, the other guys turned to shit largely to his tyrannic behaviours.

You can say Slash and Duff were always wasted, but take into account they were waiting 3+ hours while INCREDIBLY pumped to play to tens of thousands of people...Axl dealt with that in his own way but those guys were like shags on a rock, much like how we have stories of Robin and Ron losing their shit waiting to go on.

edit: grammar

Edited August 22, 2014 by DR DOOM

[Rovim]

Just cherry picking one thing here, but Slash said something negative about Izzy what, once?

Axl took Izzy to task numerous times, from his pulpit on the stage...used to dedicate songs to him in hatred.

Nobody in the GNR story is innocent, but it's pretty overwhelmingly obvious Axl was the main factor in things turning to shit.

edit: grammar

No, I don't think it's obvious at all. I don't think Axl shared enough info about what happened, and what he did share (Slash's and Duff's unwillingness to work on November Rain and Estranged for example) makes me believe it was tough being the leader of that band, and they were hard to work with too.

It's overwhelmingly obvious that many here automatically blame Axl for most of it, when in reality, we don't know the full picture. Probably not even close. Even everything Marc said about it, which I 100% believe, paints a different picture then what Rockerman presented.

And what Slash said about Izzy fits with how UYI sounds. He took musical control over it imo, and the music suffered from that.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Rovim