RONIN

My confession is that I still wonder why Axl had dreadlocks in 2002. What was Round 2 going to be? Who was picking up all the confetti after each rehearsal of Paradise City - Del and Pitman?

Okay, fair enough. I'm not faulting Duff for studying business. My issue is that the guy comes off as inauthentic. If he's played a role in Izzy not being there and it was over money - well, that doesn't seem like it aligns with the values he used to espouse in his old interviews and his books. Just my opinion.

Well, I'm not an expert on punk but whatever it is defined as, I'm pretty sure Duff is the opposite of it. I imagine being punk denotes some level of authenticity. I don't think GnR in their current configuration are very authentic. Not releasing music, overpriced rip off tickets playing the same 30 year old songs and barely changing the setlists 7 years into a reunion - and let's not forget cutting out former members over trivial sums of money - majorly uncool. When you're pulling down 7 figures a night and you're offering one of the principal songwriters and a co-founder of the band a low five figure sum to guest (if early rumors at the time of the reunion are to be believed), it's hard to get behind the band as a fan. And then you have the Steven situation, there's a guy who would play for free and they make him fly all the way to Argentina for one song. It's hard to defend them man.

You saw them at RIR 3 and new years '01 (the joint)? If you had seen the House of Blues show (the one before RIR 3) you would have hit the holy trinity of nu guns shows. You're right, Axl from RIR 3 had that old Axl aura about him from the 90's. Iirc, Dave Grohl and the Gallagher brothers were backstage at that show. I think like some others said here, Axl completely self destructed in 2002. Even his looks had changed from 2001 to 2002. The dreads and jerseys were awful. I think he was so damaged in the 90's from the lawsuits, Duff and Slash leaving, the laughingstock he had become in the industry, his relationships falling apart, etc - that what we saw in 2001 when he re-emerged was a very fragile man. The 2002 mtv vmas probably wrecked his confidence completely. That's when all the Fat Axl stuff started. So his head wasn't even in the game. There's no chance that he was in a headspace to complete a tour, release an album, promote it, etc. But yes, that would have been the best and most ideal time to establish nu guns and his career by releasing the album. I think he would still have been a little late because the opening was there in 1999 to come back strong. Every year he waited, the momentum was slowing. People really started to move on by the end of '02 and his credibility was in tatters. He just blew it. Sometimes I think he should have just disappeared completely after Rock in Rio 3 and HOB 2000 - would have gone out like a legend. Left everyone wanting more and chinese democracy would have stayed a mythic album. I think the way nu guns disintegrated into a band of d-list musicians playing to half empty arenas and fronted by a bloated guy with a hideous wardrobe badly damaged the band's reputation and legacy. Everything about the 2008 album is a downgrade. The album cover sucks compared to what they were going to do originally. Nearly all of the songs have demos from the Beavan sessions that were way better. For some inexplicable reason he's pasted Bumblefoot and Frank all over the album - d-listers who belong nowhere near Bucket and Brain. More stupid layers. More random effects, choirs, etc. Replacing Brian May's amazing guitar work with Bumblefoot's tasteless shredding. Then the marketing was screwed up in 08 because of Axl being a baby and not playing ball since Azoff and Interscope forced the album out of his hands and forced him to tour in 2010. You see, Axl wasn't ready. He wanted to work some more on the cover art, the liner notes, or whatever other excuse he had. He didn't want to tour Illusions or release that album either - he was forced to do both. He needs a manager that kicks his ass like Azoff and Alan Niven, otherwise nothing ever gets done. That's why he prefers enablers so he can sit on his ass. Now he has Team Brazil, and so nothing ever gets done except pointless touring and cheap merch releases. Even their website is ass compared to Metallica.

Regardless of what you think about Joe, it's a good idea for Axl and the band to go on the show. Naturally, they won't. Because this band doesn't operate like a normal band in the real world. So no PR and bad ticket sales are a guarantee in America. A job well done to Team Brazil, the most abysmal band managers in recorded history. Post Elvis, no manager has fucked an artist/band harder than these bottom feeders.

"I mean, with Slash, I remember crying about all kinds of things in my life, but I had never felt ... hot, burning tears of anger. Basically, to me, it was because I am watching this guy and I don't understand it. Playing with everyone from Space Ghost to Michael Jackson. I don't get it. I wanted the world to love and respect him. I just watched him throw it away." "The truth is they didn’t want to be here for you at this level and they don’t want to take it farther. I mean, that’s their business right? But not at my expense or yours. You’ve been played. You’ve been lied too. You’ve been used. You’ve been manipulated so that they can ride around in limos and jam with Snoop Dogg or whoever the fuck. Y'know, I don’t care, that’s their business. But they shouldn’t really do it at your expense or mine." - W. Axl Rose

They don't have a future. Just tour, sell as much merch, and collect as many paydays as possible until the wheels fall off (Axl's voice). Axl will likely retire in the next 3-5 years with enough cash for his Brazilian leeches to retire to their own private island. He's working like a mule for them. $lash will keep playing at Bar Mitzvahs, store openings, birthday parties, etc for as little as 200 bucks and a plate of bbq ribs. Like Axl said, he'll play with anyone from Space Ghost to Snoop Dogg. Recycling the same butt rock riffs he's been playing since Snakepit. Duff "Punk Rock" McKagan will release another shitty album and write another lousy book where he can name drop his good friends from Nirvana to burnish his punk rock cred. Maybe he can write another cringe apology letter to Krist and Dave about his bad behavior at the 92 MTV VMAs. When they do actually retire, this band will only release shitty merch like candles and magnets. The archival stuff like the Illusion tour, demos, etc are all lost in time. All I care about is the Axl biography and the Chinese Democracy boxset. There is nothing else this band has to offer. I'd say the mid-90's demos would be another goldmine but those sadly have no vocals. They'll never release that tour footage because it would blow up their image with the politically correct crowd. That's also why you'll never see a GnR biography. Slash is out there saying that he thinks the biographies are corny and not realistic. Bullshit. He's scared of the dirt a biography would uncover. Imagine a segment of the movie dedicated to the hell house days, one in a million, the rape charges, Axl beating his wife/gf, Steven and the band exchanging sexual favors for cash pre-fame, Izzy being a heroin dealer and pimp, etc - the list goes on. They would be cancelled faster than you can blink. The band doesn't have the stature in America to survive stuff like that unlike say...Metallica who have really cultivated a loyal and passionate fanbase.

These guys don't want to do PR, don't want to release music, don't want to release archival stuff, and still expect to play stadiums at exorbitant prices. Brilliant really. The bare minimum would be doing a few talk shows, going on JRE, etc but Axl will do none of those things so I imagine the NA tour will have anemic sales. They're going to probably have to give those tickets away to fill those stadiums half way.

GnR is a band that is not relevant to anyone under 45 in North America. I even wonder sometimes how relevant they are to the GenX crowd (their bread and butter base). The 40+ crowd are busy and picky about what they devote their limited time to. GnR is offering nothing new - these tours are the very definition of a cynical cash grab. There is nothing new to hook someone as a repeat customer. It also needs to be said that GnR literally fell off the map here since '94 and missed their last chance to be relevant (circa 2006). So you have a decade too late reunion, a largely irrelevant brand, a divisive singer with rapidly diminishing vocal power, and a band that is only 3/5 reunited. Everything post-2017 is going to be a case of been there done that. The short catalogue and lack of new material doesn't help either. I'm amazed they're still able to fill arenas currently in NA. Testament to what they built from 87-94. In the larger scheme of things (imho), Axl self-destructing during the crucial period of the mid-90's allowed Metallica and Nirvana to rewrite the era's narrative and supplant GnR's place as the preeminent rock/metal band of that era. Rose being an extremely divisive figure cemented all of that as a de facto thing. That means less PR fluff pieces on Vh1, less inclusions in 90's spotify playlists, less chances to be featured in hit movies, etc. Less relevance in pop culture for the past 20+ yrs. The culture and people moved on from GnR. All of that is reflected in the ticket sales. Metallica and Nirvana are peers from their era who are relevant in a way that GnR will never be I think. GnR's "reunion" has rejuvenated the brand in a major way, and they're giving it their all on tour which helps but the incompetent management, greed, and refusal to release either old or new material is really hurting the momentum and legacy I think.

I don't think he has any big guns left - we got the best stuff in 2008 if Hard Skool and Absurd are any indication. I also don't think he recorded much vocals (from start to finish anyway). It looks like Axl literally became a man paralyzed with performance anxiety and squandered whatever was left of his vocals during the 90's. I wish Axl had kept the Rock in Rio 3 lineup and released his Beavan era albums in '99, '01, and '02. No bumblefoot, Ashba, etc to defile those wonderful Axl/Buckethead compositions. Keep the Brian May stuff. Would have preferred no Finck either (Bucket does not need to be trading leads with this guy) but atleast Finck is a decent writer. From a commercial standpoint, that would have been ideal. Every moment onwards from 2002 was a case of diminishing returns and a brand devaluing. As others have stated here, the guy blew it. A terrible work ethic, enormous self doubt, not knowing what he wanted, an obsession with chasing trends (nin, pearl jam/nirvana, nu metal (bleh), trip hop, etc)- and most importantly, no accountability or self awareness. How many times can one person blame the record company, random producer #15, Buckethead, Slash, etc for delays or whenever something goes wrong (which it always does with anything Axl is associated with). At some point, you have to admit you fucked up and Axl was never willing to do that. I wish he would have just chased his muse and made some fun experimental albums with that incredible group of musicians he originally put together. Mid 90's and early 00's Axl was still a potent creative talent. A chinese democracy box set with demos from each producer on the project that Axl hasn't messed with recently (see shadow of your love) would be a killer offering for the long suffering fans of this band. If he insists on putting Duff and Slash on the tracks, give us the original demos and the new revamped stuff so that fans can have both. But this is all a pipe dream...

They are never coming back unfortunately. It is what it is. If early rumors are to be believed, it looks like Duff "Punk Rock" McKagan was a large impediment to them returning. Mr. Punk Rock is the businessman of the band (very punk) and he thought it was best for the three partners to hoard all the cash for themselves rather than pay Izzy and Steven what they were worth and give them a respectable position in the band. Slash, who claimed in his book that he left GnR in large part because Izzy and Steven were no longer in the band, did an about face as soon as he rejoined GnR. Remember their company line? "We'll only do the reunion if it's the 5 of us and everyone is an equal again." So basically Duff and Slash have been bullshitting fans for 20 years. My personal opinion is that Duff had the most credibility when he originally left GnR but post-VR he has wanted to cash-in badly. Slash on the other hand has always been angling for a way back into GnR. His leaving the band is very likely about control. As far as I'm concerned, Axl was largely correct about his assessment of Slash's character. It seems that's also backed up by Matt Sorum. That being said, I think Slash may have been open to being more amenable to Izzy and Steven, but that was something that Axl and Duff weren't ever going to be onboard for. Axl needs his money and hangers-on/leeches, Duff/Slash need money - the agendas align. Too bad. GnR fans take another L as usual.

“Guns N Roses are a different type of band {than Metallica}. And I use the word ‘band’ very loosely. It’s a guy and some other guys.” - James Hetfield I keep thinking they've wrung every last penny from this reunion cash grab tour but apparently GnR keeps rising from the grave like an undead corpse. Nice job stripping down the stage to the bare minimum so that they can pocket the extra cash and give the audience a bare bones show. Real value for your dollar there. Must have been Duff "Punk Rock" McKagan's idea. On the positive side, Axl and $lash are giving it everything they can onstage which must be commended.

This thread is meant as a celebration of all things Axl Pose (James Hetfield's favorite diva). But let's expand this to include all manner of Axl being "Axl" or someone clowning the redhead's diva moments. There is a veritable treasure trove of material from '87 - 2012. Where do we start really? There's Axl and his craigslist band getting bottled in Ireland, fur coats and basketball games in 2002, randomly jumping out of Slash's car, the pimp cane, Axl's white trash bistro, Mike Patton... - endless list really. Illusion era and "Homie"-Axl circa 2002 alone could fill a book. I'll start with my two favorite moments: 1. The Izzy in Chicago '89 story - This is the one where Izzy is driving to the hotel in Chicago to meet the boys and finish writing UYI. As he's driving up, he sees Axl on the balcony pelting fans below on the street with Italian food - naturally, Izzy promptly turns around and drives straight back to Indiana. Classic. 2. The Lamb dinner debacle of 2006 that nearly incited a riot aka "Guns N' Roasties" AXL Rose nearly sparked a riot at a reunion concert by refusing to go on stage until he had eaten a roast lamb dinner. The 44-year-old lead singer of the self styled "world's most dangerous band" demanded a roast lamb dinner, complete with Yorkshire puddings, mint sauce, and gravy before the sell-out gig at Newcastle's Metro Arena on Wednesday. Fans were waiting an hour and 15 minutes in sweltering heat while caterers rushed to prepare his grub. Thousands started jeering and throwing objects at the stage in Newcastle, but wildman Axl - who flew in by helicopter - refused to budge. Fan Saskia Green, 25, said: "It was really hot and the crowd was booing because he was taking forever. "A security guard said the delay was caused by Axl demanding a lamb dinner before he went on - very rock 'n' roll." Colin Revel, manager of the Metro Arena, confirmed Axl refused to play until he had been fed, adding: "Only a roast dinner would do." https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/axl-rose-guns-n-roasties-634782

Can anyone who was a fan around 1993-97 share some anecdotes about what the rock press, musicians, or your friends were saying about the band? What was the perception of GnR back then, especially in North America? Spaghetti Incident was released without much fanfare and undersold by a huge margin. None of the singles charted high. The Estranged video in December '93 was DOA as was SIDHY in the summer of '94. Sympathy for the Devil tanked at the end of '94. Whatever they put out in '94 went nowhere with audiences - it's like people had moved on already. Was it because Illusions and the band drama had exhausted people? GnR had not left audiences wanting more? Was it more of a case of an under-promoted cover album that had no bearing on the massive amount of Guns fans still dormant and waiting for an original release? Could GnR have even put out an album that wouldn't have completely tanked back in the mid 90's? The fall from grace around '93 onward seems really sudden - how did they fall out of public favor that fast? Why didn't bands of their stature like Metallica or U2 get that kind of backlash? Those bands weathered the 90's just fine. On the other hand, it appears like the media and industry folk were expecting/hoping GnR would fall on their face with the next record. MTV WASN'T PLAYING THEIR STUFF BY '95/'96? There's this telling quote from Bill Gould of Faith No More in '92: And this from '94: And Marilyn Manson taking a shot at Axl in 1994: http://Interview-Seconds_Magazine_Interviews_Marilyn_Manson_&_Madonna_Wayne_Gacy