RONIN

Is this related to the track from the village leaks? From what I recall, it was an instrumental with orchestra. Almost sounded like film score...

Is this the first proper music video for the band in nearly 30 years? Shockingly well done as well.

Cobain in the top 5...but of course.

Anyone know if Frank is drumming on the song or is it Brain?

Nailed it. I think as Pitman so artfully put it, it's a money grab FU. Maybe this is the best material they've got in the vault? The locker leaks don't exactly fill me with much confidence.

This song isn't good enough to warrant a 160 pg thread.

Exactly. I'm stunned by how mediocre this material is. Just the Crash Diet demo alone kills this stuff. There's a reason he was able to hire A-list players initially for CD (based on his previous reputation) but was unable to retain them. Can you imagine Jimmy Iovine or one of those Interscope execs asking to listen to some of these demos and then that "macdaddy" song is played for them? He punk'd these execs plain and simple. Axl had the worst case of writer's block and was collecting huge multi-million dollar advances - not to mention getting unlimited time in state of the art recording studios with the best instruments on earth at his disposal, and whatever blank check perks the record label had been bankrolling for a decade before they cut him off the tab in 2004. These leaks actually complete some missing pieces of the story. That there was very likely only enough juice in 14 years for 1 solid album. Maybe we're both wrong and Soul Monster, Thyme, Oklahoma, The General, etc are classics. Personally, I'm skeptical... DJ was hired out of desperation because Axl no longer had the credibility to hire A-listers for his touring band. He didn't want to collab on material with either DJ or Bumble because their writing contributions were subpar - they themselves have said that material went nowhere. Axl blew it by losing all that A-list talent from the 90's/early 00's. Once you get into a studio with guys like Bucket and Freese and you can't produce the goods, they're out the door and that's what happened. How many amazing players left the band or did not want to stick around after a couple auditions? This all really challenges the "Axl is Guns N' Roses" myth. He's a vital part of the band but not the maestro he thinks he is (imho). That would have been a cool way to break it up IF any of these leaks had been worthy of release (jury is still out). I'd lean towards the experimental purely for Sorry and If the World (my favorite tracks from CD) even if the more traditional track listing is probably more consistent. But really, I feel like calling these tracks "experimental" might be a bit overstated. I don't really think Axl was pushing the envelope that far in any of the CD tracks. It seems like standard GnR fare to my ears with a late 90s/early 00's influence. I suppose the industrial elements and hip hop beats could throw an AFD/Lies fan for a loop but most of us who enjoyed UYI were already primed for them pushing their sound further into different styles. I wish Axl had left My World as an instrumental bonus track without the cheesy vocals - if you strip the vocals out retroactively, UYI 2 nicely segues into CD. My own perfect CD tracklist would be: 1. Oh My God, 2 Shackler's, 3. If The World, 4.Catcher in the Rye (May), 5. The Blues, 6.Better, 7.There was a Time, 8. Sorry, 9. Prostitute. Bonus track: This I Love I think you're right, if Axl had released a double album with tracks like these leaks, he would have been clobbered and rightfully so. Atlas or whichever song has the "how to be a man" lyrics is simply dreadful. I don't think any of these tracks can be salvaged except "Nothing" so I'm not too torn up that they never were properly released. In fact, going by the mistakes they made on UYI with too much filler material released, for me, I'm glad only the strongest CD material made the cut. They could have probably cut more tracks from the final tracklisting for an even stronger album given that a lot of this stuff had already leaked anyway. Riad, Scraped, etc are b-sides that shouldn't have been on the album. Maybe all these leaks could have been released on a CD boxset, that would have nicely closed the book on that whole era while keeping expectations in check. I think unfortunately for many of us, a lot of these unreleased tracks have been built up in our minds for so many years, that at this point you expect nothing short of exceptional material. The standards are raised so high because of Axl's excellent track record in the past. I actually like that they are putting singles out with this material - a perfect strategy. If this stuff was released in an album, it would just tarnish the brand. Released as a throwaway single without much fanfare seems like the correct way to go here. On a final note....these Village leaks give me the impression that Axl was more interested in playing around with pro-tools and creating soundcapes/textures, than actually putting together a finished song. It seems like a lot of random experimentation without purpose or focus. It's like he's trying to do the Trent Reznor thing but cannot find a creative muse so all this stuff just meanders and feels half baked. I guess it also explains Axl's interest in film scores- he prefers making instrumental music.

Man the Village Leaks are.... Feels like an Emperor's new clothes situation. This is what he had in the vault?? Really? You came up with this crap with the likes of Buckethead, Finck, Stinson, Freese, Brain, Vrenna, etc?? Please tell me there is more to justify 1994-2008 than this. It appears like every half decent track he had was released on the 2008 album. I honestly think even Hard Skool and Absurd are above these leaks which explains why they were the first to be released last year. "Nothing" may have potential. Eye on you is just average at best and I'm being kind. Atlas (the one with Brian May?) sounds like a generic alt-pop song you'd find on the Reality Bites soundtrack from the mid 90s. Bleh. The rest aren't even worth mentioning. If this is the bulk of what he has left - it makes Axl seem like an artist that has nothing left in the tank. Incredibly uninspired. Was music just a weekend hobby for him during those long wilderness years? That's what this makes me wonder now. I don't see how a "final" version of any of these tracks is going to stand up to what was already on Chinese Democracy even with Slash and Duff. The material just isn't there imho. Bring on the Moby and Youth era leaks I guess -that's the final frontier of this era... There was another version of Oh My God that I heard and somehow they managed to strip the soul away from that one as well. All of the tracks seem exactly as Bob Ezrin described, like they've been painted over one too many times. Probably an audiophile's wet dream if you have good headphones and can pick apart each layer in the songs.

Oh My God was the best rocker from Chinese Democracy by far. Killer song. Had that old GnR swagger. Lyrics were vintage Axl. Just clean up the demo and remove whatever filter they used for Axl's vocals and it's perfection.

This. Iiirc, Fortus doesn't have a single writing credit on Chinese Democracy which speaks volumes as far as what Axl thinks. Gilby never had a writing credit in GnR either. People put way too much emphasis on technical proficiency. So what if he can play note perfect? What has he written that has stood the test of time? Same goes for Bumblefoot. They can play some great cover tunes though. Bumblefoot did a fine job on Don't Cry. Buckethead is leagues beyond these guys as is Robin Finck. Those two are talented artists in their own right (especially Bucket). Didn't Marc Canter say that this 3 guitarist idea broke Slash's heart and was one of the reasons that drove him to quit? If I recall correctly, Finck briefly left the band in 2000, and then Axl found Buckethead via Brain - then Finck came back and expected the lead guitar spot but Axl was too attached to Buckethead and couldn't choose between them. Fortus was already in the band by that point. So voila, 3 guitarists. And naturally, Axl liked that sound because he's idiosyncratically overindulgent. He overcooks everything. Thankfully, when Slash came back, the 3 guitar idea was jettisoned and GnR went back to basics.

There's this one song called 'Sorry' that's almost like doom metal with Axl singing really clean over this grinding, slow beat that is fucking mean,' says Bach. 'I cannot get it out of my head.'" (Rolling Stone, 10/18/06) Sorry was almost perfect...if not for some of the lyrics - it turns that song into almost a diss track like Get in the Ring. I love the mood of "Sorry", I really hope he has more songs like this in the bag and it's not just a one-off. This I Love could have been great as well but I think it's let down by the lyrics and the opera-esque theatrical mood/vocals. Just too melodramatic. A review once described it as Andrew Lloyd Weber-esque which I think is the perfect description. The one song that came out of nowhere and was a surprise for me was "If the World". It's not perfect (that weird 70's porn riff) but it's a cool little song that flew under the radar a bit. I think it was one of the best songs on CD.

As Diesel Daisy would say, maybe Axl is adding an extra layer of bleeps to the song and thus it has been delayed? You jest, but this is probably closer to the truth than anyone here would care to admit.

Agree with a lot of this. I don't think it was a fully Axl decision either. My personal opinion given the early rumors was that Duff is likely the major impediment. There's an interview some years back with Chris Jericho? where Duff is even downplaying Izzy being underrated (when he claimed the opposite in his book). Then in Matt Sorum's book he claims Duff said F*ck Izzy and Matt conveyed that Izzy said FU back. Then we have Steven, according to him, Duff was the one who called him up to say he was out and being replaced by Frank. Maybe that was a band decision, who knows. Either way, I do think Duff is playing a larger role in the band's decision making than he ever did in the past. There are some interesting band dynamics going on there. Remember that early rumor years ago that Slash at the last minute after the deals were already in place - like days before the Coachella shows demanded a higher percentage cut, and that it came out of Duff's end? Or when Axl claimed that him running into Duff in that hotel in 2010 wasn't a coincidence (what Duff was claiming). There's some juicy dirt with how that reunion came together I imagine. I think money was a huge motivator to get this thing off the ground. It's not hard to see how the partners may not have wanted to split anything extra with someone else. Maybe in their minds, they had already left 20 years worth of cash on the table as it was. Izzy has a history of fighting over money - true. But Izzy and Steven both claim they had to fight the band to get what they were owed. Who do we believe? Now if we're talking about the nu guns years and Izzy asking to be paid a certain figure for guest spots - I mean, the guy wants to be paid what he was worth? I can see where Axl is coming from here though. I do think when Izzy was still in the mix, they likely had no plans for a major tour yet. So maybe Izzy was considering just a few reunion shows and wanted to be paid an equal share. That would make sense. Even as an Izzy fan, it's hard to imagine him being on a grueling 7 year touring schedule.

At this point, it's all water under the bridge as far as Team Brazil. The band will never function like a real professional band. Fine, it is what it is. The best thing Team Brazil can do is to get their man to release stuff. He doesn't need to do anything new or create anything from scratch. Just release whatever is in the vault. It doesn't matter if it's instrumental #465. Give us something. Anything. Whatever you've got. They say that even before Roy Thomas Baker joined Chinese Democracy, they had over 60 songs near completion (if my memory is correct). That's a great deal of material to mine. Then you have the 95-97 sessions, which according to Sorum, yielded a number of tracks in the bag (without vocals I presume). They have many of the Illusion era shows professionally recorded. You have the UYI tour documentary where they likely even have footage of the infamous '92 dust-up between Axl and Kurt Cobain at the MTV VMAs. Just a treasure trove of material. I really wonder at this stage of the game what exactly the hold up is. Is he afraid of putting old material out? Is he paralyzed by inaction? Why not just put that stuff on their website and charge us a kings ransom per track or show. We will buy it. If they're afraid of controversy over the Illusion tour footage, airbrush and delete anything that isn't G-rated so that the UYI tour footage looks like you're backstage at a Taylor Swift concert. At this point, expectations are extremely low. If they can get him to put stuff out, then some of Team Brazil's failings can be overlooked.

When I was little, we found a man. He looked like - like, butchered. The old women in the village crossed themselves, and whispered crazy things, strange things. "El diablo cazador de hombres". Only in the hottest years this happens. And this year, it grows hot. We begin finding our men. We found them sometimes without their skin... and sometimes much, much worst. "El que hace trofeos de los hombres" means "the demon who makes trophies of man".

This. I really like most of Axl's creative muses from the Chinese Era (except the nu metal stuff) - he had mostly very good taste in music back then so the leftovers still seem interesting. More AFD style material or Slash's generic butt rock for a new album seems very uninspired and stale to me.

Leftovers. Old Axl vocals from '99-02 > current Axl vocals.

I haven’t moved goalposts- you haven’t bothered to read either of my posts properly. Once again, GnR is not as relevant as Metallica and Nirvana in America. GnR was largely irrelevant until the reunion. All of this is reflected in the ticket sales. These are not controversial statements.

Shackler's is solid. But for me, the top tracks on CD are: 1. Sorry 2. If The World 3. Prostitute 4. Catcher in the Rye (Brian May version)

That's why I said "imho", just my humble opinion. I was also referring mostly to the breakup years which has diminished GnR's impact in America. GnR's pop culture exposure from 1996-2016 is minimal compared to Metallica and Nirvana. I don't think that's a controversial statement. Axl himself did not want to promote the old band's legacy during those years. Metallica and Dave Grohl were everywhere during those years unlike Axl. Again, I don't think I'm being controversial by saying that GnR was considered a joke in America before Slash came back. If you don't believe me, here's a clip of Corey Taylor talking about going to a nu guns show and the crowd jeering as soon as he mentions GnR. People respected the old band but most downplayed their legacy here....because nu guns had tainted the whole thing. It's only after the reunion that the narrative started to slowly change. Helped in no small part by far better press coverage than the wilderness years. Thor and Jumanji came out after the reunion. We're talking about the post-breakup years - 20 solid years where Axl and Slash were not on speaking terms and suing each other over various things. Slash (a.k.a. Saul Hudson), McKagan and Rose again have their names on a legal document, only this time their union is adversarial: the two members of Velvet Revolver are suing Axl for at least $1 million, according to "Celebrity Justice." In the suit, Rose is accused of rejecting requests to use old Guns N' Roses songs in major motion pictures even though he lacks controlling interest in the material. Slash and McKagan added that they weren't consulted when their ex-bandmate nixed lucrative offers from the makers of "We Were Soldiers," "Death to Smoochy," "Old School" and "Just Married." The suit also claims Rose killed negotiations with the producers of "Black Hawk Down," who wanted to use "Welcome to the Jungle" in their movie. He allegedly had wanted to re-record the track with the new members of GN'R he had hired so Slash and McKagan wouldn't receive any licensing payment. https://www.mtv.com/news/nqetns/axl-rose-sued-by-ex-guns-n-roses-bandmates

I mostly agree with you but I think you might have a little too much faith in Axl. We're talking about a guy who was obsessed with Charles Manson, had his energy read by a psychic named Yoda, was into past life regression, etc. Judging by that recent clip of Rogan speaking about GnR, it appears that Axl is very familiar with Rogan's work. If he didn't like the guy, I don't think he would have invited him backstage in Athens. Rogan used to be amusing at times years ago because he was a pot smoking comedian who would talk rubbish with random celebrities and high profile people. Like a more sanitized evolution of Howard Stern. Then he started to wade into politics and it all went to hell. Many Americans are into conspiracy theories unfortunately. There is a lot of distrust in once hallowed institutions in the country like the media, supreme court, presidency, etc. So I guess Rogan found his angle to keep his show growing and now he has a huge following. Some are the original fans who enjoyed the nonsense he would talk about like UFOs and Big Foot - and then there are his true believers who think the election was stolen or democrats are vampires who drink the blood of children or whatever conspiracy theory they're into now. He has a huge platform though and it would be great promotion to go on his show for a new tour or album.

Holy shit.

I might be way off here, but I always assumed it was this design?

Do we want a new album from this lineup with current Axl vocals? Or are we wanting reskinned chinese era songs with Slash and Duff? If they do another album, will Frank be on drums?

Positive: People were making some snarky predictions on various blogs in 2016 that GnR wouldn't be able to sell out even arenas, why were they booking stadiums. Well they were proven wrong. Big time. I also don't think many of us could have predicted Axl's reputational rehab. He has regained an enormous amount of credibility. Negative: That he had a whole bunch of music and "big guns" just waiting in the wings. A magnum opus trilogy. The nu guns myth just blew up into a million pieces by the time of the reunion. In hindsight it seems like Axl shat the bed with that project. I really wanted to see what Axl could have pulled off with Buckethead and it just never really came together. I'm glad we got the demos that leaked, at least there's that.