RONIN

Well, whatever happens....you have to give Axl massive kudos for what he's put into these past few years of touring. The guy has gotten back to being fit in his 60's, playing grueling back to back dates for 3.5 hrs - 51 shows in 6 months....that's just incredible. He has turned it all around and rehabbed his reputation in a major way. We are talking about a guy who would delay a show for hours if he didn't get a lamb dinner with yorkshire pudding as recently as a decade or so ago. Needless to say, Axl gives much mirth to some of us as a source of mockery - but one must give this man his dues. He has killed it on this tour and so he deserves all the respect for that. It looks like Slash's work ethic and fan service has finally started to influence Rose which is great. As far as the other stuff - music, releasing material...it is what it is. They don't like to release stuff, what they do release is lacking quality control, they have horrible management - we know this already. They will never be a high quality high functioning band like Metallica. We've all had years to grieve and accept the state of affairs for what they are. So all that said, one can only hope that Axl can truly let go of Chinese Democracy and just drop all the demos and finished tracks as a box set. Just get it out there man. I guess they insist on drip feeding it track by track every year. Fine, I guess we'll take whatever we can get. The real hope is that they release the true treasure trove - the live shows and footage from the AFD and UYI tours. How much we'll get is anyone's guess as it appears the band is wisely trying to avoid scrutiny of their past (see Duff's interviews around the Me Too movement) rather than embracing their legacy as one of the most wild and debauched bands on earth. As far as a new album - is this something we really want? These guys are way past their prime, it would take a herculean effort from them to make a half decent album. All involved would have to radically up their game to make it worthy of their past music. And they'd need to get a real producer, not just a yes-man without the balls to tell them something sucks and needs to be redone or left on the cutting room floor. IMHO, the CD tracks left off the album that are being released now are well below the quality of what ended up on Chinese Democracy so my expectations are low here. I think the final track listing of CD was well chosen in retrospect and Axl put the strongest stuff on there with the exception of Scraped. I think one more final tour and a final one-off show with the AFD-5 would be a great way to go out at this point. Just release whatever chinese outtakes that are left to keep the momentum going. There's no need for new music at this point because all it can do is blemish their near-perfect track record. Someone mentioned on another thread that it would be perfect in keeping with GnR's tradition to just disappear completely off the map a la 1994 after the final show in Mexico - we never hear from Rose again as he leaves the scene in mystery. That would be a fine ending to this story if you ask me. This is an enigmatic band and they did things their way - so leaving with no warning or fanfare, that seems very GnR in spirit.

Rose wasn't kidding when he said he was struggling with writing lyrics back in the mid-90's. I guess he kind of gave everything he had on AFD and Illusions. The CD stuff (to me) feels like an afterthought - an epilogue to the Axl Rose story rather than an epic next chapter or conclusion.

The perfect meme for this band.

The weirdest thing about this whole situation is that The General was built up to be a "big gun" - THE epic song of Chinese Democracy like "Estranged" was to UYI. It's a legendary track for the Chinese Democracy fanboys. And the genius management of this band decide to release this mythic track as a b-side with no promo or fanfare at the END of an endless tour. AND...it's only on vinyl. Truly a WTF moment. And now it has missed its original release date just like CD.

my most listened to "GnR" tracks are: Sympathy for the Devil, Aint it Fun, and Since I Don't Have You. I love mid-90's GnR - Axl's vocals, Slash's guitar tone, and the production are amazing.

Yeah, GnR treated FNM like shit Whatever you say Mike. I was a bit too young to experience the Illusion era but it really does read like some of these young upstart alternative bands that were emerging kind of positioned themselves as antagonists to the mega band of the era (in this case GnR). Sort of a combo of jealousy, rebellion against what was mainstream at the time, and a distaste for the LA "hair metal" scene that GnR was lumped into. And then Axl's behavior and goofiness during the Illusion era (bicycle shorts, cigarette holders, meltdowns, etc) just pours rocket fuel on the whole thing. There's a clip of James Hetfield on Stern taking a shot at GnR by calling them glam or Dave Grohl derisively saying in that interview with John Stewart that GnR came from a world that they didn't consider "real" (1 hour 22 mins) - whatever that means. I guess Flea kinda sums up the attitude of these bands: “We were definitely against the hair-metal scene,” the bassist said. “We were like, 'F**k them. We're the underground, art-rock, get-weird east side guys; those guys are just rehashing Aerosmith and Kiss.’” “In retrospect it was all petty bulls**t," he admitted. "A lot of those bands were f**king great. Guns N’ Roses was a great band.” https://www.iheart.com/content/2022-03-06-flea-reflects-on-red-hot-chili-peppers-petty-views-of-guns-n-roses/ Agreed. I think Duff and Axl definitely developed a bit of insecurity because a lot of these alternative bands went to great lengths to disassociate themselves from GnR. I think there is more connective tissue between GnR and the grunge bands than a lot of people on that side would care to admit.

Well...at one time he was considering it apparently. Check out the first 45 seconds of this clip:

I'm torn on this. On one hand, I commend Patton for being a sh*t terrorist. He pissed on Axl's teleprompter, encouraged crowds to pelt him (and ostensibly GnR) with trash, and put feces in a hotel hair dryer so that the next person to use it would get a face full of hot excrement - what a great man. He was a sensitive and thoughtful artist in a sea of pretenders. With that said, my god was that band full of d-bags. Patton has great talent so his assholery can be overlooked, but it's harder to do it with the others. Have some gratitude. No one held a gun to your head to go on tour. They even agreed to go on a second tour (the Guns/Metallica tour iirc) with Guns so it makes the whining even more ridiculous. It was a circus that you agreed to be part of for the money and exposure, deal with it. The more you read and hear of that particular time, the so called "alternative" bands sure had some diva-ish tendencies not so different from their nemesis Mr. Rose. I think the stratospheric success of Guns put a bullseye on their back and the knives were out for them. There's a lot of straight up jealousy on the part of these bands when you read the stories of that era. No doubt Guns (Axl) made it easier to clown them but GnR in theory should have been a band that ought to have been accepted and respected by the alternative scene but I guess Axl and his pompousness probably became too divisive and "uncool" for them. A lot of these same bands publicly have said positive things about Guns now - but back then, wouldn't have wanted to be associated with them at all. I still wonder why being accepted by these alternative bands was so important for Axl and Duff. To this day, they're still so hung up on it - like they consider associating with those bands as a way to elevate their status. You don't see that type of mentality with Slash and Izzy.

Never gets old.

Such a great post. He really has become such a tool. A post 2007 Duff interview always covers the following topics meticulously to stay on brand: 1. Punk rock 2. Seattle 3. Pancreas 4. Tenderness or whatever crap solo album he's pushing. 4. Touring with GnR is a blast! Izzy/Steven who?? Can't talk about them. But we're having so much fun. It feels like the most fun we've ever had. 5. I'm friends with Dave Grohl and the other grunge guys. I'm so sorry to Krist and Dave for my immature behavior at the MTV awards - the feud was all our fault. Can I be part of your club? I'm from Seattle too. 6. New music will happen when it happens but I have a good feeling. Trust me bro.

You're correct obviously but you must understand that this band is not a creatively viable entity anymore. This is not even a real band. Just three former partners who decided to get together again to make a lot of money for their retirement fund and cash-in on nostalgia for the incredible music they put out many years ago. I mean - good for them - in a way, I get where they're coming from because, thanks to Axl and to a lesser extent Slash, the band imploded at their peak and these guys could not amass a fortune or take advantage of the incredible brand equity they had built. So while Metallica continued to make money hand over fist for decades, GnR withered away into irrelevance for years before the reunion. All that to say....good for them to cash in, they should have put their BS aside and done it earlier. I imagine they're all kicking themselves (including Axl) over it for how much money they left on the table. Compare the net worth of the Metallica guys or Dave Grohl to Rose, Slash, and Duff. They left millions on the table by breaking up. As for Steven and Izzy....they are not relevant to this band anymore. The "partners" are just touring musicians at this point and custodians of the brand. There will likely be no new music from them and if there is it will be uninspired crap like what you hear on Slash's solo albums. And Rose's chinese leftovers like Perhaps and Absurd stink as well so it's not like his involvement is an indicator of higher quality material. So why do you even need Izzy and Adler when the others are so creatively spent and more interested in being a legacy act? I do think there's a slim chance of an AFD 5 reunion though. Maybe towards the very end - a capstone to their farewell tour - I could see it as a teaser before the farewell tour begins to juice up the ticket sales. I imagine it will be a short residency in Vegas like someone said earlier or a limited 3 month arena tour when Axl is ready to hang it up and retire. Kind of a final cash-in gimmick for the partners once all other avenues are tapped. Once these guys have exhausted North America with these endless tours - the promoters themselves will be pushing for some new gimmick and this will be the last card in the deck to play. If you ask me, they're nearly there.

This tour should be renamed to the "Money grab FU! Tour". No pyro, cheap penny pinching all the way through for each show to maximize profits, and ripoff ticket prices as an extra FU from the oldies. Don't forget the shitty overpriced merch - a $49.95 lavender scented candle is just what you need from this band, no need for any new music. They have more in common with Kiss than Metallica at this point. The wise words of James Hetfield still ring true: "one cup cubed ham, it's gotta be cubed right so it can get down his little neck..."

Must you bring logic and facts into everything? Can't you let me be critical of Axl as usual I do wonder though if Tommy decided to quit not so much because of the tour not working out but rather because the writing was on the wall for the reunion. Maybe it was all but certain that nu-Guns was done after that tour? If not, why wouldn't GnR management simply find a replacement just for that tour and let Tommy come back later? Is there a future where Tommy does not quit and the reunion happens without Duff? Seems unlikely.

If he cared that much about Izzy, then maybe don't give the guy who co-founded the band a contract demoting him? If he cared that much about Tommy leaving, postpone the tour or figure out a way to make the schedules work instead of saying No and leaving Tommy no choice but to quit? Seems pretty straightforward. This is a guy who would throw tantrums about not going on stage unless he gets a lamb dinner with yorkshire pudding or being 4 hrs late to a gig because he was watching Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2 in his hotel room or seeing fireworks in Paris. Nothing happens without Axl's say so. He has no problem canceling gigs, cancelling tours, not showing up whenever he wants to put on his furcoat and hit the club. Figuring out a tour to accommodate Tommy who needed to take care of his kid doesn't seem insurmountable.

I wasn't referring to this interview - what he said here seemed pretty straightforward. I'm referring to his older interviews. Yeah, fully agree and I think all of that applies to most people. Tommy probably worked on the bulk of those CD tracks in the late 90's. Anyone would have moved on by that point. I'm not taking a shot at Tommy with my previous post by the way. He is what he is - a guy who needed a job and did solid work for GnR. If anything, I'm critical of Axl for hiring him in the first place. Well...I don't know if it was Axl or management, but as per Tommy, there was some drama over him leaving but I guess they worked it out since he seems to be on decent terms with GnR Inc. But he says he hasn't spoken to Axl in years which is....normal in GnR land I guess? I get the opposite impression. He doesn't seem like someone who would hold back his opinion. He certainly hasn't hidden his distaste for Buckethead. Dealing with GnR's (Axl) penchant for litigation I imagine is a good motivator to not stray too far from the company line. No doubt. He has a lot of credibility based on his past work in The Replacements and it appears like Axl, Duff, and most of the other nu band members held him in high regard. Yeah, I fully agree - this was never in question. No one blames him for being so far removed from this stuff. I'm just of the opinion that nu GnR should have had members that actually respected the band's legacy and felt honored to be part of the band. It seems like Axl was hiring a lot of people who were (at best) ambivalent about the job. Tommy's attitude towards joining Guns is very different from Sorum, Gilby, or Bumblefoot who were honored to be part of the band. Allegedly Buckethead was also a fan of Axl and GnR. It reminds me of the Dave Abbruzese situation a bit. He had the same sort of distaste for GnR as Tommy, but he thought the ideas Axl had were cool. Just like Tommy. Dave wanted to potentially be a part of that stuff...but as a wholly different entity away from GnR. Trying to meld that newer sound to the GnR brand and sound made him get cold feet. And he had the integrity to walk away. As did Bucket, Finck, Freese, Brain, Vrenna, etc. Even Bumble left. None of those guys stuck around for 15+ years as salaried employees like Tommy.

Which speaks volumes about Tommy if you ask me. He also wasn't the nicest guy to Bumblefoot either.

As someone earlier said, the GnR job was just another gig to the guy. I doubt he cares even a scintilla about GnR or those songs he recorded in 2000. He's been very upfront about not being a fan of the band, not thinking too highly of the scene GnR came from, etc. It's pretty clear he viewed his scene/band as being of a higher caliber and the GnR thing was a downgrade. And ofcourse Axl, needless to say, heard all that and thought he was the perfect fit. He's also been upfront that he was barely working and was making ends meet as a telemarketer prior to getting the call from Axl. No punk rock guy with real prospects would be hanging around with Axl and his merry men for 15+ years sporadically playing gigs and recording bass layer #12 over decade old songs - or playing instrumental jam #364831 on a tuesday at 2 AM with other random session players. He needed a job and Axl was dumb enough to keep all of these guys on a payroll for over a decade to work once a month on Chinese Democracy instead of reuniting the original lineup. Wasn't Tommy collecting like 200-250k/ yr for GnR - I remember the band salaries discussed here some years ago. That's a doctor's salary for basically doing next to nothing since his boss was MIA most of the time.

The world lost interest in Chinese Democracy after 2002's touring disaster and the missed release date for the album. Axl lost immense credibility and was considered damaged goods by then. That was the last window of real mainstream success for nu-GnR. By the time he missed the 2006 release date and threw Merck under the bus, most of us die hards had lost interest - especially since a majority of the tracks had leaked by then. The tour garnered some positive press but whatever last vestiges of interest in the band died with that missed release date for the album. By 2008, hardly anyone cared outside of the ride or die Axl fans. He just blew it. Lost two amazing lineups (original band, and the bucket/finck band) with just one album to show for all of those wasted years. Then he didn't do any press and then tours nearly a year later when people had long forgotten about Chinese Democracy. A total dumpster fire. By 2014, GnR was basically one step above a bar band and they were broke in spite of numerous AFD/CD tours since 2001. The GnR brand was irreparably tarnished. And Axl seemed determined to go down with the ship. Frankly, I'm amazed Axl even agreed to a reunion given how resistant he was to the idea even a year or two prior. What changed? To see all of these tracks released largely without fanfare just to juice up their tour with Duff/Slash pasted on top of the tracks - it feels really strange, especially given how long Axl labored over them. I don't want to say that they're dumping these songs but that's what it feels like. I wonder if he sees the whole era as a failure that he's washing his hands of. Wasted time. It has to be screwing with his head that he's playing sold out stadiums for the past 7 years after struggling to even fill arenas with nu-guns. Like his life's work for the past 2 decades went up in flames. I wish he'd write a book and explain 1994 onwards - his motivations, dreams, and how he sees the Chinese Democracy project post-reunion. Can he be real about it or will he be in denial and talk about his affection for the DJ Ashba lineup and how Merck/Azoff pulled the album from his hands before it was finished and that's the reason it wasn't perfect.

Probably a longshot theory but...you think this is the reason "Don't Cry" was retired for most of the nu guns shows and seems to be MIA again? It reminds him of Izzy?

Wasn't there even more music written for End of Days? I vaguely remember some old Axl interview where he said he wrote another song for the movie called "Mommy is doing the devil" or something like that...

Exactly. Or if the execs are angry and threaten to cut funding, kick over a few instrumentals or a half-baked demo to keep the cash flowing. I was just skimming through chinese whispers on GnR evo recently and it's crazy how many times the record company offered Axl a million dollar bonus if he could deliver the album in a certain timeframe. He must have left so much money on the table through this entire saga by not being able to follow through. It really is such a bizarre journey. There was an A&R guy saying that there was a near finished album ready to go even in '98....just needed vocals apparently.

He had top tier talent in the original incarnations of Nu GnR as you pointed out. From 2006 onwards though it just kept getting watered down. Imho, guys like Fortus, Bumble, Frank, etc are journeymen musicians. Fine session players but hardly worthy of an elite level rock band like GnR. What have they written that is worthy of GnR? And Tommy Stinson is the very definition of a "in it for a paycheck" band member regardless of his "cred". I think Axl hurt the band's brand by the constant rotating lineups in nu guns - especially when each replacement is a downgrade from the person they are filling in for. I suppose you could say that Gilby and Matt weren't really worthy of being in Guns either and I'd be inclined to agree.

I think the more revelations that come out about that time, the more I think GnR was just a side hobby for Axl after the '93 tour. Something he'd work on once a week or a few times a month. I don't think the creative muse was ever really there which explains the lack of output post Illusion.

Right...I forgot all about that. Yep, they were the shadow group. Makes sense that they all got along I suppose.

Welps, I reheard the Perhaps demo and it's definitively better than the final version. Is there a single final version CD era song that sounds better than its demo(s)? The Perhaps demo has a better beginning (without the random whale sounds), a significantly better guitar solo that actually fits the song, and a cool little ending (one of the few times Axl's pro tools-ish effects actually elevate a song imho). I can't believe I prefer a Robin Finck studio solo to Slash's work, but here we are.