KISS - Monster

[James Bond]

He could have said "guys I'm not comfortable taking over Ace's persona. I find it disrespectful to the fans and as a liflelong fan myself. I can't do this to Ace or the persona he created".

Perhaps, but think of it from his situation. You've been working for Gene for like 20 years, he comes up to you and asks you to be, for a nice salary, the lead guitar player in KISS. The only stipulation is you have to wear Ace's make-up. At the end of the day, being a musician is his job and he took it. I have no doubt he knew he'd get shit on for it, but hey, he's the lead guitar player in KISS.

For the record, Bruce said he would have considered dressing as the Spaceman had he been asked for the sole purpose that he misses being in KISS. He would have preferred not to of course, but he described it as a job opportunity that he'd have to consider taking being that guitar is his career. My point is, if it wasn't Tommy, it'd be someone else. At least with Tommy you've got someone who's faithful to Ace's solo and can still play some Bruce. More set list options for sure, especially for someone like me who enjoys all eras of KISS.

It's funny. If Tommy made up his own solos a la Bruce or Vinnie, people would probably complain that he isn't being faithful. He's in a no-win either way.

It's not relevant to the current line up, especially now that they have continued on to make new music.

They've created new characters before, they could have done so again.

I meant that if they created new characters but insisted on selling merchandise at Wal-Mart or wherever with the old characters, then it wouldn't make sense from a business point of view. They tried new characters before but I don't think anyone was all that anxious to get a Egyptian Warrior t-shirt. At this point in their career, I think Paul and Gene realize it's a big nostalgia show. It's nice that some new music has finally come from it, but it's not hard to see why they kept the characters. The casual buyer sees the characters and probably has no idea it's Eric and not Peter or Tommy and not Ace.

He didn't have to, he chose to.

It was fine in his tribute band days, but to take over Ace's persona in the actual band is disgraceful.

I'd agree about it being disgraceful if it was still about the persona that came with the make-up, but now it's strictly image.

I do agree that Tommy shouldn't be singing Shock Me or shooting rockets, especially on the Sonic Boom tour when he could have done When Lightning Strikes, which is a cool song that he wrote. Those things are just begging for a backlash. Even though people generally have less of a problem with Eric, he also shouldn't be singing Beth. Again, it didn't make sense. Let's have Eric sing Beth on the Sonic Boom tour even though he has arguably the best song on the CD. Those are things that can't just be nostalgia because they have plenty of other songs they could fill those gaps with and people wouldn't miss them.

Anyways, from the reunion on it's been about nostalgia, not about being those characters. Gene continued doing most of his routine without the make-up anyways.

It would have fuckin' rocked, and it would have been the right thing to do.

They cashed in on the reunion hysteria, they should have then retired it with some pride and dignity and moved on.

I concur. I dream of seeing a reunited Revenge KISS doing smaller venues and releasing some more heavy, kickass music.

Maybe part of the reason I accept Tommy so much is because it's either this KISS or no KISS. I wasn't around for Revenge, but hey, I've got some mean bootlegs.

[Zint]

Maybe part of the reason I accept Tommy so much is because it's either this KISS or no KISS.

Nah..

If Tommy had done the right thing, the noble thing, the moral thing and refused to pretend he's Ace; and Eric had refused to pretend he's Peter.

OR if anyone had refused an offer to be the fox or an egyptian warrior or whatever that was..

Gene and Paul would have looked at each other and said, "right then, get Bruce on the phone...Carnival of Souls tour is a go".

Which tour??...oh yeah, the one where the band had recorded a shit hot new album and tossed it, and their longtime faithful guitarist and drummer aside to finally cash in on the reunion craze unintentionally sparked by the official conventions.

If Tommy said "no dice man, I'm not doing that to Ace or the original fans", I guarantee you, there would be a "KISS" today.

Your views on this seem to be based in "business decisions".

For long time fans who feel that it's a disgraceful slight to Ace and Peter, it looks like a shameful, desperate, retirement fund cash grab attempt on the legacy that two of the original members help to create through their contributions, make up and costumes, (of which are still in play because it's the only way to continue selling make up / costume merchandise??).

[James Bond]

Maybe part of the reason I accept Tommy so much is because it's either this KISS or no KISS.

Nah..

If Tommy had done the right thing, the noble thing, the moral thing and refused to pretend he's Ace; and Eric had refused to pretend he's Peter.

OR if anyone had refused an offer to be the fox or an egyptian warrior or whatever that was..

Gene and Paul would have looked at each other and said, "right then, get Bruce on the phone...Carnival of Souls tour is a go".

Which tour??...oh yeah, the one where the band had recorded a shit hot new album and tossed it, and their longtime faithful guitarist and drummer aside to finally cash in on the reunion craze unintentionally sparked by the official conventions.

If Tommy said "no dice man, I'm not doing that to Ace or the original fans", I guarantee you, there would be a "KISS" today.

Your views on this seem to be based in "business decisions".

For long time fans who feel that it's a disgraceful slight to Ace and Peter, it looks like a shameful, desperate, retirement fund cash grab attempt on the legacy that two of the original members help to create through their contributions, make up and costumes, (of which are still in play because it's the only way to continue selling make up / costume merchandise??).

That's not quite what I meant. I'm not saying there wouldn't be a KISS at all, I'm saying if I choose not to go see a Tommy KISS, then unfortunately for me I'm never going to get to see Gene, Paul, and Eric live (at this stage in the game). So in that regard, it's either accept this KISS or not see any form of the band live at all. I wasn't around for the Revenge and I was a little young when the Reunion Tour came about, so what I'm saying is I'll take what I can get. Paul and Gene are awesome, and I most certainly prefer Eric to Peter. Tommy is a very consistent player so it could be worse.

Can you blame Tommy for not saying "forget it"? I wouldn't have said no. Money talks and bullshit walks right? I'm not saying it's the right thing to do by any means, but if I were in his shoes, you get to be the lead guitarist in KISS and tour the world to sold out crowds. Not really a bad job.

Same goes for the business stuff. All I'm saying is that I get why Gene and Paul chose to go about it this way. Is it the right thing to do for longtime fans? Probably not. But again, since I'm a bigger fan of the no make-up KISS with Bruce and Eric I'll have to accept this line-up since it's technically the closest thing I can get at this point in time. As someone who wasn't around for the heyday, I think it's easier for me to enjoy this KISS line-up because it's the only way to see the band, make-up or not.

I remember people getting all offended during the Rock the Nation tour saying it's disgusting how Paul and Gene are trying to "fool" the crowd by pretending it is Ace and Peter, even though Tommy and Eric are mentioned by name during the shows and are credited equally. I get what they were trying to say, but factually its wrong. For merchandise, yes, the make-up hides the fact that it's not Ace and Peter, but at the shows? Crazy argument.

A Carnival of Souls tour would have been the dream, but it's not going to happen. Sucks, but it is what it is. It's still a good show and I've been able to see songs like Crazy Crazy Nights and War Machine which are part of the era of KISS that I love the most.

[Zint]

Peter Criss's book arrived today, I intended to do an initial glance, but I found myself unable to put it down.

I love Peter Criss man, fuckin guy tells it like he sees it. The man wears his emotions on his sleeve.

Really interesting perspective on the Tommy Thayer situation, couldn't stop reading those pages.

This is a WAY cooler read than I expected.

[DieselDaisy]

I think I would have prefered new characters a la Vincent and Carr. It will always be a bit of a con, Thayer in Ace make-up, although I still am a fan enough to attend the shows and listen to the records - just.

[Cosmo]

It's not Tommy's decision wether he'll be the sapceman or not. It's that or the road and he's a huge KISS fan. Let the man live his dream. I'd do the same thing. As for his playing, he's my favorite since Ace himself. Rommy's solos are better than Slash's new solos... His All For The Glory solo is above Ace's average. Plus, he's the songwritwr KISS needs. Bruce wasn't a good songwriter like Tommy and Vinnie's got problems. As for Eric, much better than Peter. I can't stand Peter.

[James Bond]

Peter Criss's book arrived today, I intended to do an initial glance, but I found myself unable to put it down.

I love Peter Criss man, fuckin guy tells it like he sees it. The man wears his emotions on his sleeve.

Really interesting perspective on the Tommy Thayer situation, couldn't stop reading those pages.

This is a WAY cooler read than I expected.

Cool to hear. I'm in no rush to get it (school readings have thrown me behind in my endless pile of books to catch up on) but I'll probably hint at it for Christmas.

It's not Tommy's decision wether he'll be the sapceman or not. It's that or the road and he's a huge KISS fan. Let the man live his dream. I'd do the same thing. As for his playing, he's my favorite since Ace himself. Rommy's solos are better than Slash's new solos... His All For The Glory solo is above Ace's average. Plus, he's the songwritwr KISS needs. Bruce wasn't a good songwriter like Tommy and Vinnie's got problems. As for Eric, much better than Peter. I can't stand Peter.

Funny you mention the Slash thing. I actually thought some of Tommy's solos on Monster leaned more towards a Slash kind of feel than an Ace feel. Back to the Stone age definitely has a bit of a Slash-vibe going for it.

I concur. Eric is a better fit this days. Peter lost his chops years ago. If he could still drum, then maybe I'd feel differently, but listening to bootlegs from the 2003 World Domination tour is painful. The songs are slow as can be and Peter plays it safe, not even doing some of his signature fills from the Alive era. Age is one thing, but in my honest opinion, it hurts the show by having Peter there. Plus Eric opens up more set list possibilities.

[Zint]

Yeah it's too bad they had to disgrace Peter's legacy as a founding member of the band by whoring his persona out to Eric so they could continue the "marketing strategy" line up of this so called current costume/make up era.

[Cosmo]

Yeah it's too bad they had to disgrace Peter's legacy as a founding member of the band by whoring his persona out to Eric so they could continue the "marketing strategy" line up of this so called current costume/make up era.

Peter's legacy was never really all that to begin with. Of all KISS drummers, he's my least favorite.

[Zint]

Yeah it's too bad they had to disgrace Peter's legacy as a founding member of the band by whoring his persona out to Eric so they could continue the "marketing strategy" line up of this so called current costume/make up era.

Peter's legacy was never really all that to begin with. Of all KISS drummers, he's my least favorite.

In your opinion he might be your least favourite, that's fine.

I can wholeheartedly assure you has legacy was all that to begin with.

[James Bond]

Yeah it's too bad they had to disgrace Peter's legacy as a founding member of the band by whoring his persona out to Eric so they could continue the "marketing strategy" line up of this so called current costume/make up era.

Plus, if they would have given Eric his own make-up, then when Tommy got hired there would have been an even higher chance of him getting his own make-up too. Then I think you'd be happy.

Just messing with you, but I get where you're coming form. I'm just glad Eric is in the band, cat make-up or not. It's kind of funny seeing the current KISS live and seeing the cat behind a double bass kit playing War Machine. Odd sight.

[Turn_It_Up]

Peter Criss's book arrived today, I intended to do an initial glance, but I found myself unable to put it down.

I love Peter Criss man, fuckin guy tells it like he sees it. The man wears his emotions on his sleeve.

Really interesting perspective on the Tommy Thayer situation, couldn't stop reading those pages.

This is a WAY cooler read than I expected.

Cool, will have to get this. Peter definitely isn't one who holds back.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Turn_It_Up

[DieselDaisy]

Although Peter is probably my favourite member personality wise, i remember watchinga Trunk interview and he was very, anti-Tommy/Singer ('fakes, leaching off me and Ace') which I found a bit hypocritical as Criss was touring for awhile with Tommy, in Ace make-up. This might have been the Farewell Tour, or part of, the Farewell Tour.

[Cosmo]

Yeah it's too bad they had to disgrace Peter's legacy as a founding member of the band by whoring his persona out to Eric so they could continue the "marketing strategy" line up of this so called current costume/make up era.

Peter's legacy was never really all that to begin with. Of all KISS drummers, he's my least favorite.

In your opinion he might be your least favourite, that's fine.

I can wholeheartedly assure you has legacy was all that to begin with.

I don't know... Sometimes I get really really pissed at him when watching interviews, reading books, etc... I respect your admiration for Peter but here's what gets me pissed: First of all, the man thinks he's a better singer than he really is. He exaggerates the fuck out of Black Diamond live quite often, not to mention Nothing To Lose, in which he over does it so bad during the chorus. He's got the best Beth and Hard Luck Woman, though, gotta give you that. Second, after writing Beth, his goal was strictly to write another hit ballad, his solo album is basically one huge shot at another hit ballad plus filler. This went all the way through Psycho Circus, where, I admit it wasn't his fault as Paul and Gene were the ones behind it all, but getting him to sing I Finally Found My Way was another Beth backfire, he should never have accepted that. Then, during the farewell tour Peter starts drawing tear drops coming out of his eyes as part of his make-up and counting the remaining concerts everyday, bringing the mood of what should have been a celebration and a blast to a depressing goodbye. I know Peter has his problems and is a genuine guy but the way I see him, he's a two-trick pony: New York streets guy who sings like he's black and overdramatic hit-chaser who just wants to repeat his winning formula until it works again. Again, I respect your admiration for him but this is how I see Peter Criss.

[The Sandman]

Not how Peter Criss sees Peter Criss though

[James Bond]

Although Peter is probably my favourite member personality wise, i remember watchinga Trunk interview and he was very, anti-Tommy/Singer ('fakes, leaching off me and Ace') which I found a bit hypocritical as Criss was touring for awhile with Tommy, in Ace make-up. This might have been the Farewell Tour, or part of, the Farewell Tour.

It was the 2003 World Domination tour you're thinking of (the Symphony concert was also that year). In 2001 Eric rejoined so the line-up was Eric and Ace. By 2003 Ace had quit the band permanently and Tommy was in the picture, but it was in the contract that there had to be at least three original members. So they basically told Eric to stand by (kind of a dick move but they knew there was no chance of getting Ace) and grabbed Peter for the tour. So you're right, Peter accepted and toured with Tommy.

Also, The Only Cosmonaut, it's funny you mention the teardrop thing because Paul said in an interview Peter was a joy to work with on the Reunion Tour with a fresh attitude and determination. Then by the Farewell tour it was becoming unbearable working with him (and of course, the infamous teardrop).

[Bucketslash]

Anomaly>Monster>Sonic Boom

[Zint]

Read the book for Peter's perspective...his point of view on the points you all raise are as vaild as anybodys.

[Cosmo]

Went to a KISS concert here in Rio yesterday. AMAZING. Even though Paul's voice is really limited, they rock the hell out of anybody. Loved Hell Or Hallelujah live and Outta This World really blew me away. Wall Of Sound is good too but Gene should have chosen either Eat Your Heart Out or Back To The Stoneage as his Monster song live. It was awesome. These guys rock.

[James Bond]

I'm glad that Tommy is doing Outta This World this time around. No need for him to do Shock Me when he's got two strong songs of his own. I was checking the set lists and a few shows ago they even did All For The Love of Rock & Roll which is nice that Eric gets to do his too. That's how it should be. I agree though. I do like Wall of Sound but I think Back to the Stone Age and Eat Your Heart Out would be better choices for the live show. Still, they've been varying the set list a lot (I'm surprised they added Psycho Circus back in - awesome!) so we might see those songs in the future.

[Cosmo]

I've always wondered this but don't post in a place where people wouldn't be biased (non- KISS and GnR forums). But I think you fit into the right category to answer this, JB: Ace X Slash.

[The Sandman]

Just bought it (finally!) - listening

[Cosmo]

Just bought it (finally!) - listening

What d'you think?

[The Sandman]

Just bought it (finally!) - listening

What d'you think?

Really dig it. Balls to the wall rock.

I can't say there's anything stand-out about it thus far (but I am busy drafting a chapter for a book, so that may be why) - but it's great! Love it.

[Cosmo]

Just bought it (finally!) - listening

What d'you think?

Really dig it. Balls to the wall rock.

I can't say there's anything stand-out about it thus far (but I am busy drafting a chapter for a book, so that may be why) - but it's great! Love it.

Takes a few listens to really notice the stand outs.