Why do people act as if nobody gives a shit about a new GNR album from the current band?

[wasted]

That's the case I'd make for AFD as an artistic album, it's mix of all these styles of rock - Skynnard, Queen, Pistols, ACDC, Aerosmith, even thrash. It's just not as pushing as far as colliding classic rock with nu metal (90s bands like Korn, NIN, Nirvana) Blending those things into it really polarized fans because at some point you were either on one side or the other. Blabbermouth really proves that, Korn get so much shit on there. And now with the 00s I don't know what you'd call bands like MCR, BFMV, The Killers, Kings of Leon - it's almost come full circle.

Yeah, maybe that's why on Appetite they had more room to hit you on the head with some elements of it, cause there weren't as many generes or at least not like there are in Chinese: you get the feeling the sound will fall apart without the details, and those were put together for specific reasons.

It's kinda the same goal, but Axl got there by carefully injecting the things that could work under the Gn'R umbrella. Quite a challenge if you ask me. Stretching the Guns sound far enough to every direction, that it will feel fresh but never losing the core of it.

Appetite to Illusions they did that too, when they introduced epics like November Rain, Estranged, Coma, and Locomotive so I guess one of the known ways we can count on to make a proper Gn'R album is to push it forward like that. Axl always cared a lot about that, and I believe this is one of the things that seperates his vision and the Gn'R concept then other bands that revisit old ideas like maybe how Death Magnetic was to And Justice For All.

DM is kind of a nostalgia trip as I understand it. Think back to 1987 kind of thing.

CD is like two or three songs in one. It usually sounds like an old GNR song but then adds contemporary elements. Better is like SCOM, sung with the Jungle voice on the early verses, with the sound of a NIN song, with a metal core breakdown, with intro and outdo squals by Korn. some songs seem to have classic rock borithers and sisters like Riad and Sorry. but then the arrangements are never on autopilot, ITW and IRS seem to have the structure of hip hop tracks. Those two songs seem to act like bridges on both sides. The tracklisting seems to mirror AFD in a way while working some of the epic tracks from UYI.

[HisRoyalSweetness]

i don't think there's anything inherently more artistic about trying to mix genres. especially when the genres in question are glam metal and numetal. quite frankly, i don't think the term 'numetal' has ever been used in any conversation about art i've ever had. but hey, if you live in a small enough world, i guess the idea of mixing glam and numetal could seem visionary. but whatever. big deal. if ambition and artistic imagination are what you crave, i suggest you look in an art form other than rock n' roll. it's so last century.

that's not to bag on axl. i think he's a great frontman. just not necessarily a great artist. certainly not in a visionary creative sense. i think he sees himself that way. and i think the super obsessed fans of chinese democracy seem him that way. but to me, he was just and angry little punk with a hell of a voice. i've found his artistic ambitions to be pompous, pretentious, self-important and pretty lacking in critical thought or perspective. it was hard for me to imagine axl ever looking more ridiculous than the estranged video. but chinese democracy was like dolphins on steroids.

Edited January 9, 2013 by HisRoyalSweetness

[Rovim]

i don't think there's anything inherently more artistic about trying to mix genres. especially when the genres in question are glam metal and numetal. quite frankly, i don't think the term 'numetal' has ever been used in any conversation about art i've ever had. but hey, if you live in a small enough world, i guess the idea of mixing glam and numetal could seem visionary. but whatever. big deal. if ambition and artistic imagination are what you crave, i suggest you look in an art form other than rock n' roll. it's so last century.

that's not to bag on axl. i think he's a great frontman. just not necessarily a great artist. certainly not in a visionary creative sense. i think he sees himself that way. and i think the super obsessed fans of chinese democracy seem him that way. but to me, he was just and angry little punk with a hell of a voice. i've found his artistic ambitions to be pompous, pretentious, self-important and pretty lacking in critical thought or perspective. it was hard for me to imagine axl ever looking more ridiculous than the estranged video. but chinese democracy was like dolphins on steroids.

First of all, it's not trying to mix genres, it's coming up with something cohesive. Second, you're criticizing a genre you dislike, and also the people that like it. It's not any less artistic just cause you don't think it's good enough.

I think Rock N' Roll is a lot of things, and can be a lot of things. It can express big ideas.

Axl was always trying to push whatever formulas he had forward. He tried to do it with November Rain and Estranged, and it worked. Was that artistic?

I will argue that songs like Catcher In The Rye and Better showed that it's not just all crazy ambitions. For me he proved that all that focus on big ideas paid off and there is a distinct fresh sound in there for Guns. Not new to music, but new to Guns.

It's like for Appetite they took Aerosmith, AC/DC, The Rolling Stones, and Led Zeppelin and created something cool, but when Axl did it with Queen and The Beatles for Catcher and Street Of Dreams or NIN and Korn for Better in the same album it's not as good?

Maybe you liked the old influences better, or you just don't like the end result, but the process is very similar in a lot of ways so saying it's not creative or not as creative is not really fair imo, or even reflects what Axl actually did here.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Rovim

[trqster]

If Axl decided to release CD2 stuff under his own name it'd be way more relevant than a 'new GnR' album. It'd also take much the pressure out of the press and fans alike.

GnR name should be kept alive only for touring and well...making easy money.

[Rovim]

If Axl decided to release CD2 stuff under his own name it'd be way more relevant than a 'new GnR' album. It'd also take much the pressure out of the press and fans alike.

GnR name should be kept alive only for touring and well...making easy money.

Why? Axl is attempting to make Guns music, not anything else. I think Street Of Dreams alone proves that.

[wasted]

There's a lot of stuff on CD that sounds like GNR and nothing else.

What are SOD, Catcher, TWAT, Madagascar, TIL, Prostitute if not the descendants of Nov Rain and Estranged?

Chi Dem is just a funkier version of Jungle. Shackler's is like Double Talking Jive meets Locomotive ramming YCBM.

[Rustycage]

Chi Dem is just a funkier version of Jungle. Shackler's is like Double Talking Jive meets Locomotive ramming YCBM.

Wow. That is wayyyyy too optimistic and delusional.

[izzydoezit]

Chi Dem is just a funkier version of Jungle. Shackler's is like Double Talking Jive meets Locomotive ramming YCBM.

Wow. That is wayyyyy too optimistic and delusional.

Chi Dem is like a 10 year old writing a rock riff. Shackler is like a paranoid guy writing a guitar riff. Both boring and uninteresting.

[Rustycage]

Chi Dem is just a funkier version of Jungle. Shackler's is like Double Talking Jive meets Locomotive ramming YCBM.

Wow. That is wayyyyy too optimistic and delusional.

Chi Dem is like a 10 year old writing a rock riff. Shackler is like a paranoid guy writing a guitar riff. Both boring and uninteresting.

LOL

CD reminds me of those aspiring bedroom musicians that wrote riffs that all stunk of smells like teen spirit influence in the mid to late 90's.

The shackler verse riff isn't so bad. It just belongs in a Metallica song during the break or backing rhythm for the solo. Nothing special. The prechorus and chorus riff are corny and boring, though. There's not a single riff on CD that holds a candle to Locomotive or YCBM

[HisRoyalSweetness]

no, frankly i don't think november rain or estranged are very artistically significant. they're just long rock songs with ambiguous lyrics. big fucking deal. i'm sorry for you if your artistic world is so small that pop rock from the 90's strikes you as artistically visionary because of bloated intentions and synth orchestras.

i don't consider afd to be artistically visionary. maybe your mind is blown by combining elements of the stones, ac/dc and aerosmith, but yeah, to me that seems pretty obvious and similar to plenty of other bands. the idea of combining elements of three similar bands from three similar eras and three similar genres just strikes me as the logical thing that would happen in the progression of rock. but like i said, the art world i inhabit is pretty big and diverse, so the idea of lauding axl rose as a visionary artist is laughable to me. but i can see why people on the chinese democracy forum would feel differently. i just think he's an awesome frontman.

i really resent the implication that if i don't like chinese democracy, it's because i'm somehow too unintelligent to appreciate the art axl's creating. i promise you, i'm no dumbass. i studied writing at nyu. i live and work at an art space and music venue in los angeles. i've made a living writing for years, have played music in various bands around LA for a while too. i live in broad, diversely talented community of artists. i hit up countless museums and galleries and concerts and repertory movie programming. trust me, i get art. i love bold, startling, provocative, controversial art. i just don't put chinese democracy in that category... it's a bloated, indulgent, work. i think the artist was more interested in presentation than content. the perspective revealed in the work i find to be juvenile, self-centered, repetitive and lacking in critical thought. i think there's a lack of melody. i think there's a lack of choruses. the ideas on the album sound every bit as disjointed, rambling and incoherent as axl's infrequent manifestos. it reminds me of kiss's music from the elder... pretentious and full of itself, but ultimately silly and thoughtless.

i don't like chinese democracy, like many many many many other people around the world. it's not because i'm too dumb, or have too limited an understanding of art's role. trust me, i get it. i just don't like chinese democracy. deal.

Edited January 9, 2013 by HisRoyalSweetness

[Rovim]

no, frankly i don't think november rain or estranged are very artistically significant. they're just long rock songs with ambiguous lyrics. big fucking deal. i'm sorry for you if your artistic world is so small that pop rock from the 90's strikes you as artistically visionary because of bloated intentions and synth orchestras.

i don't consider afd to be artistically visionary. maybe your mind is blown by combining elements of the stones, ac/dc and aerosmith, but yeah, to me that seems pretty obvious and similar to plenty of other bands. the idea of combining elements of three similar bands from three similar eras and three similar genres just strikes me as the logical thing that would happen in the progression of rock. but like i said, the art world i inhabit is pretty big and diverse, so the idea of lauding axl rose as a visionary artist is laughable to me. but i can see why people on the chinese democracy forum would feel differently. i just think he's an awesome frontman.

You seem like a man with great taste. Can you teach me about real art man?

[HisRoyalSweetness]

just listen to riad and the bedouins. it's all there, man. the history of art and the human condition. buried in those lyrics that are supposedly about stephanie seymour's brother. visionary.

Edited January 9, 2013 by HisRoyalSweetness

[Bruno P.]

So it lacks choruses - really, does that make the album less artistic? You seem to care too much about those poppy sounding songs. If you put yourself in a position where you follow all the rules you are limiting yourself. I like the lack of choruses. It shows how a song do not need to follow the standarts to be great. Hey, I can use the same argument - I, like many, many people around the world, liked Chinese. Several friends of mine that were never into GnR's sloppy Aerosmith/Zeppelin kinda rock got into Chinese. Axl did not try to mix a lot of genres. You are clearly confused by that, and since you do not know the band members enough, gotta tell you that Axl did primarily write those songs. Shacklers and Scraped are clearly Bucket's songs, Brain co wrote. Sorry, a Bucket ballad. Better, a Finck song. ITW and Maddy had a lot of Pitman. Riad, a bit or a lot of Tommy. Chinese was Freese with a bit of Robin. Your artistic instincts cant tell you that these werent primarily Axl songs, I understand. But if you take your time to listen to these guys, it's not hard to tell at all.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Bruno Poeys

[wasted]

I never said it was massively artistic. I said it was more artistic than AFD. You guys get a bit semsitive about this.

I see AFD more like an instinctive animal. It was straight from the heart. CD was like a search for something other than that. And that is what I think artists do. They reinvent themselves.

[Rovim]

just listen to riad and the bedouins. it's all there, man. the history of art and the human condition. buried in those lyrics that are supposedly about stephanie seymour's brother. visionary.

I can deal with you not liking Chinese Democracy, but can you deal with me and others liking it?

You seem to invest a lot of time restating your negative opinion on it, saying the same things over and over. What we're doing is discussing an album we like on a Guns forum and you make it seem like we're dumb or with poor taste for liking it and talking about what we like about it.

Even if it was true, that we like something that sucks, you still don't have to take a shit on it in every chance you get.

[izzydoezit]

I never said it was massively artistic. I said it was more artistic than AFD. You guys get a bit semsitive about this.

I see AFD more like an instinctive animal. It was straight from the heart. CD was like a search for something other than that. And that is what I think artists do. They reinvent themselves.

AFD had artistic qualities unsurpassed, and they mostly rely on the music. AFD is not like a jungle drum beat or something extremely simple like you present it to be. The differences are mainly lyrical and musical.

Lyrically CD is full of immature lyrics that basically are divided in two categories. The Stephanie Seymour Ballads (includes songs about crying about anything else besides Steph), and the "I-am-right-and-it's-everyone-else's-fault" songs.

Musically the songs on CD are quite very simple as structures and they are overlaid with tons and tons of overdubs of of unfitting guitar and keyboard parts recorded by many different individuals during a long period of time. Then overproduce the hell out of this, autotune the hell out of the vocals and you have CD.

This is my view on CD, and I don't even consider putting it into the same place with AFD artistically. Don't forget that the main of the art on rock music is actually the music itself....

Edited January 9, 2013 by izzydoezit

[volcano62]

just listen to riad and the bedouins. it's all there, man. the history of art and the human condition. buried in those lyrics that are supposedly about stephanie seymour's brother. visionary.

I can deal with you not liking Chinese Democracy, but can you deal with me and others liking it?

You seem to invest a lot of time restating your negative opinion on it, saying the same things over and over. What we're doing is discussing an album we like on a Guns forum and you make it seem like we're dumb or with poor taste for liking it and talking about what we like about it.

Even if it was true, that we like something that sucks, you still don't have to take a shit on it in every chance you get.

Well said Rovim

[maynard]

I never said it was massively artistic. I said it was more artistic than AFD. You guys get a bit semsitive about this.

I see AFD more like an instinctive animal. It was straight from the heart. CD was like a search for something other than that. And that is what I think artists do. They reinvent themselves.

AFD had artistic qualities unsurpassed, and they mostly rely on the music. AFD is not like a jungle drum beat or something extremely simple like you present it to be. The differences are mainly lyrical and musical.

Lyrically CD is full of immature lyrics that basically are divided in two categories. The Stephanie Seymour Ballads (includes songs about crying about anything else besides Steph), and the "I-am-right-and-it's-everyone-else's-fault" songs.

Musically the songs on CD are quite very simple as structures and they are overlaid with tons and tons of overdubs of of unfitting guitar and keyboard parts recorded by many different individuals during a long period of time. Then overproduce the hell out of this, autotune the hell out of the vocals and you have CD.

This is my view on CD, and I don't even consider putting it into the same place with AFD artistically. Don't forget that the main of the art on rock music is actually the music itself....

perfect description of CD. i laugh everytime i see people calling it "complex" or "artistic". look at the "scraped" or "this i love" lyrics. english is not my first language but i could come up with better lyrics and rhymes. the overdubs and layers of useless guitars and shredding are ridiculous. the hip hop beats are dated and un-original. AFD is a collection of songs from 5 guys on their artistic top. it's rawer, and "younger" but miles ahead of CD in every aspect.

[volcano62]

I never said it was massively artistic. I said it was more artistic than AFD. You guys get a bit semsitive about this.

I see AFD more like an instinctive animal. It was straight from the heart. CD was like a search for something other than that. And that is what I think artists do. They reinvent themselves.

AFD had artistic qualities unsurpassed, and they mostly rely on the music. AFD is not like a jungle drum beat or something extremely simple like you present it to be. The differences are mainly lyrical and musical.

Lyrically CD is full of immature lyrics that basically are divided in two categories. The Stephanie Seymour Ballads (includes songs about crying about anything else besides Steph), and the "I-am-right-and-it's-everyone-else's-fault" songs.

Musically the songs on CD are quite very simple as structures and they are overlaid with tons and tons of overdubs of of unfitting guitar and keyboard parts recorded by many different individuals during a long period of time. Then overproduce the hell out of this, autotune the hell out of the vocals and you have CD.

This is my view on CD, and I don't even consider putting it into the same place with AFD artistically. Don't forget that the main of the art on rock music is actually the music itself....

By reading your post I lost brain cells. You clearly know fuck all about music.

Your knowledge of music makes as much sense as a Mcdonald's employee trying to do heart surgery

[izzydoezit]

I never said it was massively artistic. I said it was more artistic than AFD. You guys get a bit semsitive about this.

I see AFD more like an instinctive animal. It was straight from the heart. CD was like a search for something other than that. And that is what I think artists do. They reinvent themselves.

AFD had artistic qualities unsurpassed, and they mostly rely on the music. AFD is not like a jungle drum beat or something extremely simple like you present it to be. The differences are mainly lyrical and musical.

Lyrically CD is full of immature lyrics that basically are divided in two categories. The Stephanie Seymour Ballads (includes songs about crying about anything else besides Steph), and the "I-am-right-and-it's-everyone-else's-fault" songs.

Musically the songs on CD are quite very simple as structures and they are overlaid with tons and tons of overdubs of of unfitting guitar and keyboard parts recorded by many different individuals during a long period of time. Then overproduce the hell out of this, autotune the hell out of the vocals and you have CD.

This is my view on CD, and I don't even consider putting it into the same place with AFD artistically. Don't forget that the main of the art on rock music is actually the music itself....

By reading your post I lost brain cells. You clearly know fuck all about music.

Your knowledge of music makes as much sense as a Mcdonald's employee trying to do heart surgery

Your brain cells were lost long before reading my post.

Edited January 9, 2013 by izzydoezit

[Nosaj Thing]

I never said it was massively artistic. I said it was more artistic than AFD. You guys get a bit semsitive about this.

I see AFD more like an instinctive animal. It was straight from the heart. CD was like a search for something other than that. And that is what I think artists do. They reinvent themselves.

AFD had artistic qualities unsurpassed, and they mostly rely on the music. AFD is not like a jungle drum beat or something extremely simple like you present it to be. The differences are mainly lyrical and musical.

Lyrically CD is full of immature lyrics that basically are divided in two categories. The Stephanie Seymour Ballads (includes songs about crying about anything else besides Steph), and the "I-am-right-and-it's-everyone-else's-fault" songs.

Musically the songs on CD are quite very simple as structures and they are overlaid with tons and tons of overdubs of of unfitting guitar and keyboard parts recorded by many different individuals during a long period of time. Then overproduce the hell out of this, autotune the hell out of the vocals and you have CD.

This is my view on CD, and I don't even consider putting it into the same place with AFD artistically. Don't forget that the main of the art on rock music is actually the music itself....

By reading your post I lost brain cells. You clearly know fuck all about music.

Your knowledge of music makes as much sense as a Mcdonald's employee trying to do heart surgery

Your brain cells were lost long before reading my post.

Your post was spot on. Actually, both of them.

[izzydoezit]

lol, thanks

[wasted]

I never said it was massively artistic. I said it was more artistic than AFD. You guys get a bit semsitive about this.

I see AFD more like an instinctive animal. It was straight from the heart. CD was like a search for something other than that. And that is what I think artists do. They reinvent themselves.

AFD had artistic qualities unsurpassed, and they mostly rely on the music. AFD is not like a jungle drum beat or something extremely simple like you present it to be. The differences are mainly lyrical and musical.

Lyrically CD is full of immature lyrics that basically are divided in two categories. The Stephanie Seymour Ballads (includes songs about crying about anything else besides Steph), and the "I-am-right-and-it's-everyone-else's-fault" songs.

Musically the songs on CD are quite very simple as structures and they are overlaid with tons and tons of overdubs of of unfitting guitar and keyboard parts recorded by many different individuals during a long period of time. Then overproduce the hell out of this, autotune the hell out of the vocals and you have CD.

This is my view on CD, and I don't even consider putting it into the same place with AFD artistically. Don't forget that the main of the art on rock music is actually the music itself....

Good post.

You didn't really say why AFD is so great. I think it's more of a primal thing but they are also on fire musically. We all love AFD. But they are going down the path of least resistance and they keep it pretty simple. So it kicks major ass, but they arent second guessing themselves or thinking hey what if we try this or why don't we try this to such an extent. It's pretty much in one vein. 2 weeks to record it. It rocks, that was the mission. Mission accomplished.

CD takes disparate parts that shouldn't really work. Korn meets GNR say, maybe not as consciously as that but something like it in the end must have come up. And somehow they got it to work. It's not a case of just throwing genres together. Like Better is the perfect blend, at first it's like woaw what is this, then it's like this sounds totally like GNR, then how the fuck did they do this.

Lyrically I feel like what you said isn't true. Axl wrote soppy lyrics on UYI (Nov Rain Don't Cry Estranged), politically tinged stuff on Civil War just like Chi Dem, crazy sounding rants like Riad on OTGM or Garden of Eden. In fact, TWAT, SOD and Catcher are much tougher than the trilogy - they really ultimately are about saying fuck you. Estranged is desolate and Don't Cry is the most sensitive song. TIL takes the biscuit I guess for being like the ultimate song about unrequited love. It is what it is. It's kind of admirable to put yourself out there that much. I think it paid off, especially live. The lyrics on CD are more mature in general, much less cursing. AFD is about a certain life but singing about strippers and buck bottles of wine isn't the definition of maturity in my mind. AFD is about a life where maturity doesn't matter. It's weird because the songs that sound like the old Axl Rose Shackler's and Catcher are actually him singing from a third person perspective. So it isn't what you'd think.

Production wise I think they nailed it. Great big overall sound, which also allows them to pick all the intricacies of all that instrumentation. People are still picking stuff who listen to the record now. It's not like any other record I've heard in that way.

So you might not like artistic, it's like a dirty word in rock but when someone tries to do something different and labous to achieve it that makes it more artistic in my book. And that's not code for better in anyway.

[jimb0]

I never said it was massively artistic. I said it was more artistic than AFD. You guys get a bit semsitive about this.

I see AFD more like an instinctive animal. It was straight from the heart. CD was like a search for something other than that. And that is what I think artists do. They reinvent themselves.

AFD had artistic qualities unsurpassed, and they mostly rely on the music. AFD is not like a jungle drum beat or something extremely simple like you present it to be. The differences are mainly lyrical and musical.

Lyrically CD is full of immature lyrics that basically are divided in two categories. The Stephanie Seymour Ballads (includes songs about crying about anything else besides Steph), and the "I-am-right-and-it's-everyone-else's-fault" songs.

Musically the songs on CD are quite very simple as structures and they are overlaid with tons and tons of overdubs of of unfitting guitar and keyboard parts recorded by many different individuals during a long period of time. Then overproduce the hell out of this, autotune the hell out of the vocals and you have CD.

This is my view on CD, and I don't even consider putting it into the same place with AFD artistically. Don't forget that the main of the art on rock music is actually the music itself....

perfect description of CD. i laugh everytime i see people calling it "complex" or "artistic". look at the "scraped" or "this i love" lyrics. english is not my first language but i could come up with better lyrics and rhymes. the overdubs and layers of useless guitars and shredding are ridiculous. the hip hop beats are dated and un-original. AFD is a collection of songs from 5 guys on their artistic top. it's rawer, and "younger" but miles ahead of CD in every aspect.

Five different guitarists on the title track... a little bit of over kill. The greatest thing that the rock band tracks did was prove how much useless shit was thrown in. On CD the song you have buried guitar parts that you can't even hear ala buckethead doing that arpeggio scale which leads into the Robin intro of the song, but he later does it behind the verse guitar part. There is not really one mind blowing guitar riff on the album.

I actually prefer the T.W.A.T. demo without Robins guitar because the piano is prominent and sounds good. The 'rhythm' guitar, if you call it that... on T.W.A.T. and Madagascar just seems like Robin tinkering around. Really awesome lead guitar doesn't make up for the terrible rhythm guitar.

Skill wise and talent wise a guitarist like Slash could make something out of Axl's music... Look at Estranged. A memorable guitar track, unlike Robin's attempts which are easily forgettable. A few of his solo's are decent for what he can do.. The Blues and Better. But his other solo work... Twat, can you get any more simple?, and the Acoustic solo's on IRS.. if you call it that Yikes.

One of the few guitar driven songs is IRS. which is as uninspiring as it is repetitive. Simple incremental chord progression. Is this really what GNR have become. From one of the best guitar driven rock bands to this? Why even have the three guitarists. For fuck's sake. DJ hits his guitar with a drum stick on Madagascar because he has nothing better to do during the song. It's a sad state only made worst by the revolving door of musicians, the lack of time spent writing and the unbelievable piecemeal recording which will forever prevent this band from recapturing a percentage of success the appetite lineup did. It's sad because they have really awesome musicians that have all the potential in the world. But then again it doesn't matter if you have the best ship in the world, if your captain doesn't know how to steer it, it's not going anywhere.

Edited January 10, 2013 by jimb0