Biggie vs. Tupac

[bacardimayne]

Choose Lil Wayne or Young Thug or something because Kanye is really not who you're after.

But no one on MyGNR talks about Lil Wayne or Young Thug, so he wouldn't be achieving his trolling goal.

[Len Cnut]

Listen, i hate Kanye West but what Misers saying is patently ridiculous. Quite apart from being the socially concious tender-hearted poet, Tupac kinda sold that aspect of himself out. Listen to his first album, socially concious, same with his second, good albums but didn't exactly set the world on fire...so he makes me against the world, still got a toe in the socially concious waters but mostly gangster shit...suddenly he's selling, so he continues in the vein until he died. His manager Atron Gregory even went on record as saying Pac sold out his roots, sold his soul to the devil. I'm not sure I'd be quite as dramatic about that shit but like, y'know, the Dear Mamas and Keep Ya Head Ups are kinda few and far between, it's just they get highlighted in music rags because people wanna present a cute and cuddley Tupac, a caring sharing happy-scrappy Tupac, which just ain't the fact of it...in fact it's a downright misrepresentation of the man.

For my part, my favorite Pac ain't gangster Pac or 'we're gonna make it boys and girls' Pac. My favorite Pac is militant Pac, Trapped Pac, I Just Don't Give A Fuck Pac, it's like people can only swallow socially concious when it's just a really broad non-specific message, 'universal' they call it, when what they really mean it neutered. Militant Pacs music actually kinda raised issues and bought up ripe discussion points and made you think.

This is the Pac i like:

Hows that for 'socially concious'.

[bacardimayne]

Miser's probably only ever heard Changes.

[WFA]

I've said it before, but Kanye West is talented as hell. Arrogant douchebag? Maybe. But still, very talented.

[Len Cnut]

It's real though, the spirit of H Rap Brown, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Conrad George Jackson, Bobby Hutton, all those people are in Tupac, you can hear it when he speaks and it's a beautiful because you see what potential he had, to be this amazing orator. Try looking those people up Miser, cross-reference em to Tupac and tell me if you still like what you see. Cuz thats what he was about and that should never be forgotten because you can do greater disservice to a dead man that to lose his essence in seeing in him what you want to see as opposed to what was truly there.

I mean he's a 21 yr old kid in that video giving a speech to a bunch of old time black militants, the Farrakhan posse...and he's fuckin' admonishing them, having a go at them, almost shouting at them at points...these are not the kind of kiddies you yell at and find the playpen all neat and tidy when you get back. Shit, the very sight of the Fruit of Islam scares me, nevermind standing up and giving a speech in front of a bunch of em.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Len B'stard

[bacardimayne]

Just want to put it out there that I've always thought Biggie was garbage, most overrated rapper of all time.

No Len, your 6 paragraph explanation on him growing up in the hood won't sway me.

[J Dog]

I mean he's a 21 yr old kid in that video giving a speech to a bunch of old time black militants, the Farrakhan posse...and he's fuckin' admonishing them, having a go at them, almost shouting at them at points...these are not the kind of kiddies you yell at and find the playpen all neat and tidy when you get back. Shit, the very sight of the Fruit of Islam scares me, nevermind standing up and giving a speech in front of a bunch of em.

Thank you for that. People don't talk about this Pac nowadays, they pretty much focus on thug life. I would have loved to see him live longer. He had plans on leaving Death Row, the East/West stuff would have blown over, and he was about to hit us with the type of stuff you're talking about. I know you have heard some of that unreleased shit (the originals) that leaked out after he died. All Out, Dear Mr President, They Don't Give a Fuck About Us, stuff like that. Dude was deep. I love how in one of his last interviews he was like, we the people need to be interviewing all these politicians and presidential candidates. Asking real shit, putting them on the spot, not these set up fake interviews.

And no disrespect to Big, I love the guy and he has one of the best flows of all time, but in the overall scheme of things, he really can't touch Pac.

Edited January 10, 2015 by J Dog

[Gordon Comstock]

Tupac was better in every way. Not only is Biggie overrated but he only did a couple albums really, you could fill that up pretty quick with A-list Tupac songs.

Also at len's Hit 'Em Up comment, that was my first thought too.

[Len Cnut]

Biggie deserves a lot less heat than this, as a rapper forget touching Tupac, the boy could grope Tupac and put a digit in his arse. There are few flows i have ever heard in my life, it's difficult to explain written down but it has a musical quality to it, the sound of the rhyming itself, Tupac kinda barked at you. He had a respectable flow too when he wanted to switch it on but the craft wasn't as important to Pac as the message, not that he didn't serve his apprenticeship in cyphers.

The East is the home of Hip Hop and when Biggie Smalls hit big they had that boy on a throne with a crown on at The Source Awards, there is no bigger statement than that. But forget all that, lets make it easier, name one person that ever played Biggie out on the mic? No one. Ever. Remember, this is New York and he called himself The KIng of New York and furthermore in New York, the MOST competitive place in hip hop, nobody really contested him on that. Ask Kendrick what happens when you call yourself the King of New York like that...or Fif' what happens when you put out something like that that can (and will) be interpreted as a challenge. Aside from a few subliminals from certain individuals no one came at BIG with shit about that and on that level, lyrically. I mean Hit Em Up weren't an attempt to battle BIG, it was a fuckin' assault, it weren't no lyrical thing to where you listen to it and go OK, he had BIG there LYRICALLY.

And, as blasphemous as this may sound I still listen to BIGs albums, rarely do i listen to Pacs....might have something to do with ragging Pacs albums to death as a kid and knowing them all by heart to this day but it is what it is.

But aside from that, I'm not sure there's a rapper alive that could play BIG out on the mic on his day, not Jay, not Nas, not Em', certainly not Kendrick Lamar, even when you get to the old masters like KRS and Rakim it's like Hagler Hearns, you don't who the fucks gonna win but I can't honestly say one or the other. Thats some fuckin' accolade, not being able to think of someone whoose clearly above him on the mic, thats saying he's among the best, as in the best you can count on one hand, not including the thumb.

Can you? Can you name someone that you think would school Biggie on the mic? Remember this guy 24 years old, Eminem is pushing 40 now and has had ALL that time to evolve but i still really couldn't say i ever heard him flow like BIG, and i mean FLOW, i can't remember really hearing Em' ride a good classic rhythm/beat in that way. And it's a lot harder to ride those classic beats that the kinda computery staccato beats that we have nowadays...cuz you gotta have a sense of rhythm to know where the breaks go, which doesn't really apply with a lot of the modern day stuff.

The man knows

[bacardimayne]

Only 5 paragraphs and minimal mention of the hood. Not bad.

[Dr. Who]

I like the song Hypnotize. It mentions my hometown twice and references Star Wars.

[Turn_It_Up]

Dig both, but Tupac deserves his legendary status. So much killer material and very few shit tracks for a rapper.

Sucks we missed out on so much more...

Edited January 13, 2015 by Turn_It_Up

[J Dog]

One thing nobody talks about when it comes to Pac, dude could rap over any type of beat, and sound great. Might not sound like a big deal but it is.

2Pacolypse Now - Cheap, underground production. He sounds great on it.

Strictly 4 My N.I.G.G.A.Z - East coast based production. At the time, most of the music could fit on any Public Enemy or EPMD album. He sounds great on it.

Me Against the World - Kind of bluesy, soulful, almost down south feel to it. He sound great on it.

All Eyez on Me - Straight up West Coast G-Funk. He sounds great on it.

Makaveli - Dark production with a lot of that Italiano Mafioso sound. He sound great on it.

That is called a rapper. Just give him a damn beat and he will kill it.

[Len Cnut]

One thing nobody talks about when it comes to Pac, dude could rap over any type of beat, and sound great. Might not sound like a big deal but it is.

2Pacolypse Now - Cheap, underground production. He sounds great on it.

Strictly 4 My N.I.G.G.A.Z - East coast based production. At the time, most of the music could fit on any Public Enemy or EPMD album. He sounds great on it.

Me Against the World - Kind of bluesy, soulful, almost down south feel to it. He sound great on it.

All Eyez on Me - Straight up West Coast G-Funk. He sounds great on it.

Makaveli - Dark production with a lot of that Italiano Mafioso sound. He sound great on it.

That is called a rapper. Just give him a damn beat and he will kill it.

You know what, you make a really interesting point because there was this special kinda shit going on hip hop production wise in the very early 90s New Jack Swing type era, and Pac kinda perfectly strode that boundary, you literally see it disappearing in Strictly for my N.I.G.G.A.Z, it's kinda like, like you said, a cheap version of the golden era production, sample heavy, kinda faster, Public Enemy and EPMD are perfect examples of that sound, just perfect. Or like:

It's kinda really suited to that wiggity wikkity dickitty fuckin' Das Efx shit But yeah, spot on fella. Or like Holla If Ya Hear Me, it took me a long time to get how fantastic that song is. And he's bad on that, kills it. That was my first ever email address *hides* lyrical_lunatic, dickhead

But then that 90s shit, that funk, and his delivery was really really unique...and he could change it up, that was whats so fucked up, from that and then like Dear Mama, the elongated syllable thing he did that kinda gave thing singing type feel, you can tell he could hear shit musically and how it fitted into what he was laying it over.

Or Whats Your Phone Number, thats a fuckin' odd little beat, everybody can't rhyme over them and actually sound good. You don't hear enough about this shit, I'm glad you bought it up cuz lots of people call him the best rapper ever but honestly i feel like a great deal of the people that do, often are like...don't think much of rap? Cuz Hip Hop fans, crazy fans, they don't really say Tupac is the best ever, it's more like people ain't really mental about it in that way and a consequence of that is the kinda observations you just made don't get made...about Tupac I mean, those kinda aspects of why he was fuckin' brilliant.

[J Dog]

Holla if Ya Hear Me. That and Heartz of Men. Those are always the first two songs I point out when people question his skill.

^^^Top notch production from Quik right there

[Len Cnut]

Or I Got My Mind Made Up, you can tell he's tryna be an MCs, flippin' metaphors and that 'so mandatory my elevation, my lyrics like orientation, so you can be more familiar with the n!gga you facin', we must be patient, nothing better than communication, known to damage and highly flammable like gas stations, sorry i left that ass waiting' just doin' it, y'know He's kinda purposely going out of the way to show the east coast some west coast game...with Meth and Doc on the track he's kinda showing like OK, i can go there too.

[magisme]

Comparing Biggie and Pac always seems a bit fruitless to me. They were completely different animals in almost every way. But flow was Big's thing. Pac couldn't hold a candle in that department. Silly to say otherwise really.

[J Dog]

Or I Got My Mind Made Up, you can tell he's tryna be an MCs, flippin' metaphors and that 'so mandatory my elevation, my lyrics like orientation, so you can be more familiar with the n!gga you facin', we must be patient, nothing better than communication, known to damage and highly flammable like gas stations, sorry i left that ass waiting' just doin' it, y'know He's kinda purposely going out of the way to show the east coast some west coast game...with Meth and Doc on the track he's kinda showing like OK, i can go there too.

Yeah that one always comes to my mind too. And you know what, he hangs right there with Red & Meth, and those two guys are all about being a real mc. Like you said in another post, trying to be the best rapper, showing off his skills, that really wasn't what Pac was about. To him, what he was trying to say was more important.

He cracks me up on How Do U Want It. A straight up single, made for the radio, shake ya ass club song, even got KC & Jojo on it. But listen to the 2nd verse. In the middle of this club jam, he goes off on a political rap, calling out the president and everything. Right smack in the middle of a made for radio single. Most people don't even catch it, they just keep on shaking their ass. He sounds so good that you don't even notice how deep he is getting.

Comparing Biggie and Pac always seems a bit fruitless to me. They were completely different animals in almost every way. But flow was Big's thing. Pac couldn't hold a candle in that department. Silly to say otherwise really.

I don't think it's that silly. Rhyme scheme and all, pure mc skill, sure Big jumps out at you. But Pac is so easy listening, almost like he is having a conversation with you rather than rapping at you, you don't get that from having a bad flow.

I love Big, but my major knock on him is, flow wasn't just his big thing as you said, it really was his only thing. 90% of his songs were about 2 things, being the king of NY or being a big poppa. That's really all he's got. People kill rappers like Lil Wayne for only rapping about money and hos, Big was kind of in the same boat as far as that goes, only he is about 100 times better than Wayne and them. I'm not comparing them at all now, I'm just saying, aside from having a great flow and big personality, that's about all you get with Biggie. It might not sound like it but I am with you, I really don't think they are a good comparison at all, too different, but for sake of discussion that's how I see it.

[Len Cnut]

Or I Got My Mind Made Up, you can tell he's tryna be an MCs, flippin' metaphors and that 'so mandatory my elevation, my lyrics like orientation, so you can be more familiar with the n!gga you facin', we must be patient, nothing better than communication, known to damage and highly flammable like gas stations, sorry i left that ass waiting' just doin' it, y'know He's kinda purposely going out of the way to show the east coast some west coast game...with Meth and Doc on the track he's kinda showing like OK, i can go there too.

Yeah that one always comes to my mind too. And you know what, he hangs right there with Red & Meth, and those two guys are all about being a real mc. Like you said in another post, trying to be the best rapper, showing off his skills, that really wasn't what Pac was about. To him, what he was trying to say was more important.

He cracks me up on How Do U Want It. A straight up single, made for the radio, shake ya ass club song, even got KC & Jojo on it. But listen to the 2nd verse. In the middle of this club jam, he goes off on a political rap, calling out the president and everything. Right smack in the middle of a made for radio single. Most people don't even catch it, they just keep on shaking their ass. He sounds so good that you don't even notice how deep he is getting.

Comparing Biggie and Pac always seems a bit fruitless to me. They were completely different animals in almost every way. But flow was Big's thing. Pac couldn't hold a candle in that department. Silly to say otherwise really.

I don't think it's that silly. Rhyme scheme and all, pure mc skill, sure Big jumps out at you. But Pac is so easy listening, almost like he is having a conversation with you rather than rapping at you, you don't get that from having a bad flow.

I love Big, but my major knock on him is, flow wasn't just his big thing as you said, it really was his only thing. 90% of his songs were about 2 things, being the king of NY or being a big poppa. That's really all he's got. People kill rappers like Lil Wayne for only rapping about money and hos, Big was kind of in the same boat as far as that goes, only he is about 100 times better than Wayne and them. I'm not comparing them at all now, I'm just saying, aside from having a great flow and big personality, that's about all you get with Biggie. It might not sound like it but I am with you, I really don't think they are a good comparison at all, too different, but for sake of discussion that's how I see it.

BIG was an incredible storyteller too, I Got. A Story To Tell, n!ggas Bleed and all that.

[J Dog]

BIG was an incredible storyteller too, I Got. A Story To Tell, n!ggas Bleed and all that.

He was, he was. I love Big, he's in my top 10. He just not that deep to me.

[Len Cnut]

Also, in terms of gangsta shit, he's a lot more authentic and real. Tupac is very broad and very non-specific, Biggie tells you like crime tales, referring to shit that obviously is the result of someone whoose really been in that mould. Pac sold crack etc but he was never really no gangster like that, Biggie was really a real one, Biggie was state to state with it, moving weight from NY to Atlanta...and it's obvious in his work too. Thats why his crime tales were so vivid.

Deep ain't a pre-requisite for dope is what I'm getting at

Edited January 17, 2015 by Len B'stard

[magisme]

Or I Got My Mind Made Up, you can tell he's tryna be an MCs, flippin' metaphors and that 'so mandatory my elevation, my lyrics like orientation, so you can be more familiar with the n!gga you facin', we must be patient, nothing better than communication, known to damage and highly flammable like gas stations, sorry i left that ass waiting' just doin' it, y'know He's kinda purposely going out of the way to show the east coast some west coast game...with Meth and Doc on the track he's kinda showing like OK, i can go there too.

Yeah that one always comes to my mind too. And you know what, he hangs right there with Red & Meth, and those two guys are all about being a real mc. Like you said in another post, trying to be the best rapper, showing off his skills, that really wasn't what Pac was about. To him, what he was trying to say was more important.

He cracks me up on How Do U Want It. A straight up single, made for the radio, shake ya ass club song, even got KC & Jojo on it. But listen to the 2nd verse. In the middle of this club jam, he goes off on a political rap, calling out the president and everything. Right smack in the middle of a made for radio single. Most people don't even catch it, they just keep on shaking their ass. He sounds so good that you don't even notice how deep he is getting.

Comparing Biggie and Pac always seems a bit fruitless to me. They were completely different animals in almost every way. But flow was Big's thing. Pac couldn't hold a candle in that department. Silly to say otherwise really.

I don't think it's that silly. Rhyme scheme and all, pure mc skill, sure Big jumps out at you. But Pac is so easy listening, almost like he is having a conversation with you rather than rapping at you, you don't get that from having a bad flow.

I love Big, but my major knock on him is, flow wasn't just his big thing as you said, it really was his only thing. 90% of his songs were about 2 things, being the king of NY or being a big poppa. That's really all he's got. People kill rappers like Lil Wayne for only rapping about money and hos, Big was kind of in the same boat as far as that goes, only he is about 100 times better than Wayne and them. I'm not comparing them at all now, I'm just saying, aside from having a great flow and big personality, that's about all you get with Biggie. It might not sound like it but I am with you, I really don't think they are a good comparison at all, too different, but for sake of discussion that's how I see it.

I'm not trying to say Pac had bad flow. Biggie and Pac are 1 & 2 to me, flip positions if you want, that's fine, but those are the guys. But, like you said, a lot of Pac is having a conversation with you, and it sounds like that, and it's great, but there aren't a lot of surprises to his delivery once you've gotten a hang of how he attacks a beat. I imagine Big's flow like the rap equivalent of a sick crossover - Big breaks your ankles.

And don't be so hard on his content.

"Shit, my momma got cancer in her breast, don't ask me why I'm motherfuckin stressed."

"I hear you motherfuckers talk about it, but I stay seein bodies with the motherfuckin chalk around it."

If that doesn't make an impact beyond flow, I don't know. Not saying that's what you're saying, of course.

[Len Cnut]

To expand on Magses point 'Suicidal Thoughts', or even Respect when he's talking about how he was born etc etc. Also, possibly the greatest rap song ever made:

Street robbery is a popular pasttime around here you see

[magisme]

I wouldn't give a fuck if you're pregnant, give me the baby rings and the #1 mom pendant

Edited January 17, 2015 by magisme

[Len Cnut]

That song is SOOOOO hilairious