Did Axl miss a great chance by not getting John Frusciante?

[bacardimayne]

I'm making sure that my argument is based on the right definition of the word best.

Frusciane career may be pretty good and he's heralded highly by many, but he simply *can not* touch Jimmy Page or Eddie Van Halen. Or Blackmore. Or Brian May. Some of you people want us to believe that Axl missed a great opportunity and in my opinion he did not. He missed a greater opportunity when he let Bucket and Brain leave - now we're left with Frank and DJ but we could have Bumble, Brain and Bucket on the same band.

Some people wanted to rank him as high as the greats and I pointed out why he is not. I don't think it's a hard concept to grasp but somehow some people find it difficult to understand.

So what exactly is your point? He's not as highly regarded as the same 5 guitarists that everyone always name-drops to act like they're big rock music fans? How many guitarists under 50 can honestly compare to John in both star power and proficiency with the instrument?

I'm not even going to get into your claim that a Bucket/Bumble tandem is better than a John/Bucket or Bumble tandem. That one speaks for itself in sheer idiocy.

[Guest NGOG]

One question Bruno. If I know every word in the dictionary, does that mean I'll write a good story?

[Bruno P.]

So what exactly is your point? He's not as highly regarded as the same 5 guitarists that everyone always name-drops to act like they're big rock music fans? How many guitarists under 50 can honestly compare to John in both star power and proficiency with the instrument?

I'm not even going to get into your claim that a Bucket/Bumble tandem is better than a John/Bucket or Bumble tandem. That one speaks for itself in sheer idiocy.

Oh, we have a better argument here. For his age, he's certainly heralded as one of the best - if not the best - in terms of musicality, influence, star power, etc. I'll probably agree with this statement, to be honest.

I like Ron and Bucket much better than him, therefore in my books a Bucket and Ron duo would have suited my taste much better. The idiocy here is your premise that one must like better Frusciante/Bucket or Frusciante/Ron instead of Ron/Bucket based on... well, nothing.

You'd be surprised if I really say what I think of Frusciante and Red Hot. However, I don't know why you all act so defensive and even attacking some of my favorite musicians. You guys care to explain this behavior?

I claimed that he's not as legendary as Jimi Hendrix or Jimmy Page and that he's not better than anyone because he sold more or wrote "legendary" riffs.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Bruno P.

[bacardimayne]

The reason a Bucket/Bumble duo wouldn't be as good is because they're very similar players who bring similar things to Guns N' Roses. John would bring a more soulful (while still technically proficient) approach which would be much more akin to the "one technical wizard, one soul guy" dynamic that works and makes sense. I didn't think I'd have to spell this out.

[Bruno P.]

Why do you think that Bucket and Ron couldn't fill the other role when they in fact have several soulful songs under their belts? They're similar players but can offer more than what they've shown in Guns if Axl wanted to give them more freedom.

You'd say the same thing if I said that Ron and Govan can offer different approaches in Guns even if they're ultra technical, but this would be my answer...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCXeVTnvXwY

This is why I believe that a duo of great technical guitarists can work.

[Facekicker]

When you are taking about GNR and missed opportunities and you are NOT taking about Axl then....what's the point?

When Axl refuses to release music or even hit the studio with his line-up it kind of makes it pointless to talk of missed opportunities if such and such a guitarist joined the band.

[bacardimayne]

yeah i just realized how silly this entire argument is and i've actually been getting irritated by it

i'm out

[Bruno P.]

Because you wanted to. My points were...

1) Frusciante is not the be all and end all of guitar playing - he's not the real deal

2) He's not ranked as high as the legendary ones

3) Overall album sales or legendary riffs, solos or songs do not mean anything in terms of why someone is better than the other

4) Legendary status isn't simply thrown away by fans - legacy, pop appeal, songwriting, everything plays a role in how someone is viewed as legend

5) I'd probably like Ron and Bucket as a duo better than him

My last post - I like Frusciante and some of his work is fkn great. I listen to Red Hot on a constant basis. Californication's riff is actually one of the most beautiful over the past decade, Can't Stop is one of the finest riffs that the man has ever written.

Damn Smooth can't stand him, but I like him yet we're on the same boat kind of saying the same thing.

I know it's hard for most of ya's to leave your own opinion behind when discussing something objectively and that what you like the most probably means the best to you, but I can see flaws and fuck ups and point them out when I feel like doing it even if I'm talking about my favorite artists. Just because I like Red Hot I will not say that they're more legendary than AC/DC or Queen. Or that Frusciante is a better overall musician than Jimmy Page or Eddie Van Halen.

I don't hate Slash - I really like him, but I criticize him a lot because he's been releasing mostly shitty - truly uninspired, that is - music for a decade now. I criticize Axl because he's fucking up his career pretty bad since the break up, but I had faith in him when he came back - Axl, unlike Slash, who simply wanted to be a shadow of his former self, wanted to move forward and I believe that he had the right band to do this. He fucked up and now it's too late. That's why many thought I hated Slash and loved Axl. I will speak my mind whether I am bashing or praising someone. I like Axl more as a frontman than Slash as a guitarist but I don't side with him, Tommy and Dizzy because it's Axl - it's because I believed in Axl. Chinese Democracy and the other leaked songs kind of paid off, but he could have been much better than he actually is...

So, all in all, no, I don't think Axl missed a great opportunity. I am not a fanboy that can't see the truth, I'll speak out my mind objectively or subjectively depending on the subject and I will point out flaws on my favorite musicians, unlike some of ya's who get too defensive when I say something bad about Axl or Slash.

Sorry for the slighty off topic, but I was still discussing Axl and his missed opportunities over the past two decades and explained why I said that Frusciante is not the real deal even though he's fine to me. Axl, the musician, disappointed me a lot over the past few years.

I like SoulMonster, Damn Smooth, Groghan and Bacardi because they put time and effort when they discuss something instead of *only* posting images and gifs making fun of people. I don't always agree with them but I like how they respect other people giving them attention, effort and time.

Now I went completely off topic, sorry about that

[Facekicker]

[ManetsBR]

Bruno, you're totally missing the point man... There's no such thing as the best guitarist. Your best guitarist is not the same as mine, or his... The fact that Jimi Hendrix is the best for many people doesn't mean anything but what that phrase already says: the best for many people. But not the best for everyone, not the indisputable best.

Sometimes I like to listen to Hendrix, others to Page, others to Frusciante... That doesn't mean any of them is better than the other, they're different, they're unique, and that's what makes them great. You can't rationalize music and opinions. It's not a matter of facts, which is something that can be cartesianely discussed. Music and people's taste are not, by definition, things that can be claimed as right or wrong.

I don't care if Hendrix has the legendary status or not. If Frusciante has the legendary status or not. That's totally irrelevant. It's actually pedantic to care about that at all.

[Bruno P.]

If legendary status was irrelevant the music world would not care as much about Hendrix or Freddie nowadays.

It is not relevant to you, but it is to the world of music. I'd bet that Bieber has more actual fans that Axl or Freddie yet even Justin fans - I said fans, not retarded girls that fell in love with him - wouldn't dare to compare him to those. That's respect based on Freddie's and Axl's legendary status and legacy.

[ManetsBR]

I mean that the legendary status should be irrelevant for a person when listening to music. Listen to whatever makes you feel good, be it Pink Floyd or an underground indie band... For me, both cases have their times, and, achieving their objective as music, great.

Edited November 3, 2013 by ManetsBR

[Bruno P.]

Yes, you are totally correct.

[Turn_It_Up]

Since we're all doing our final bow-outs to a thread taken horribly OT:

--Keep in mind we're talking about a band fronted by Axl Rose. Who on his best days, in his prime, was not a strong technical singer. He has a big range, sounded cool with the rasp(to those of us who liked him) and surprisingly could sing a little. Plus he was always on the edge of blowing up, keeping things exciting. One of my fav front men, but we're not talking Pavarotti here, there's countless better technical vocalists in the industry and on the street. It is more than safe to say John Frusciante is technically proficient enough to play alongside Axl Rose. If technical proficiency is someone's main focus, they'd be more into RHCP since neither Axl nor Anthony are going to be up for awards in that category and Chad Smith and Flea can play circles around Ferrer and Stinson.

--Bruno, what took this thread so quickly and far OT is that rather than giving the specific topic 2 secs of actual thought or(gasp) even listening to some of JF's larger catalog and lesser known work, you immediately went to the knee-jerk avante-garde card which was a copy & paste diatribe you've given countless times before. We get it, there's been great musicians, some amongst the most technically proficient, who aren't well known by the general public(even though they are known by many others here, not just you) and you feel we're all music label sheep . But until your last post, you've stated nothing in this thread that would lead us to believe you know much, if anything, about Frusciante. Just another broad castigation with no specifics to the topic at hand. It's clear you still know little about him which is fine(maybe you'll dig deeper?), but IMO best to bring a little value to the specific discussion if you're going to dig in and be so opinionated. FWIW, Frusciante is as well known to his generation as Brian May was--not important, but true.

--Axl ain't asking and John wouldn't consider it if he did. Guess everyone wins.

Added: Bruno, does status and fame matter or not? You're veering back and forth.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Turn_It_Up

[SoulMonster]

It doesn't matter how simple the music is. The purpose of music isn't to be complex but to entertain people. In that regards no one can deny that Bieber's music is successful.

I don't agree with your definition of "best guitarist" to be the one who is "the most influential, original, the one who made the biggest impact". The most influential guitarist is...the most influential guitarist. The most original guitarist is...the most original guitarist. And so on. The best guitarist varies from individual to individual.

Of course his music entertains most people as it's exactly meant to do that. They're pop-sounding songs with very basic structure, 3 to 4 minutes long, standart pop vocals with catchy choruses and lyrics that appeal to most and it had huge promotion.

My definition of best guitarist is exact.

best (bst)

adj. Superlative of good.

1. Surpassing all others in excellence, achievement, or quality;

2. Most satisfactory, suitable, or useful;

3. Greatest;

4. Most highly skilled;

You're saying which one *you* like the best, not which one is *actually* the best. But no, I am not claiming that Hendrix was the best guitar player ever, but the one who made the greatest impact - greatest as in most successful in most aspects. Love him all you want, rank him the best for your own opinion all you want - I will not blame you. However, he can't hold a candle to the legendary ones.

As I said, there is no way of actually determining who is the best guitarist using that definition above, because such things as "quality" and "satisfactory" are fuzzy terms and unquantifiable. And even if we were able to measure these things we would still be left with that significant subjective component (what resonates with us), too, meaning that "best" in this regard is a subjective thing. What is best to me isn't necessarily best to you. It is that simple. And whereas more people would think Jimi is the best guitarist than any other guitarist, that only makes him best to them. To me Frusciante is better. Only if there were only objective criteria for "best" would it be possible to objectively determine who is the best, but it isn't and hence we have no other choice but to accept that best is not a trait that exists outside our subjective feelings and will vary from individual to individual.

So yes, I am saying which one *I* like the best, not which one is *actually* the best because that is a meaningless given that no objective answer can be given to a question which relies on subjective preferences. We can easily say which singer has the widest range or which shredder can do the most notes/second, but we can never say which guitarist is "the best" when it relies on things like "quality" and "satisfactory" which is undeniably linked to subjective preferences. The closest you can come to saying who is the best is to say who most people prefer, but these things are not identical since the latter is just a survey of which guitarists fits most neatly with people's preferences.

[Tom2112]

Frusicante would not have joined, he left RHCP because he felt that he had done everything there is to do within a rock group... he's not going to quit one rock band to go to another... he also stated that he left because he didn't want to take a 2yr hiatus... Guns are famous for hiatuses. Frusicante has no thread that would link him to GnR, he's not really a hard rocker... more a funk-rocker with alternative influences.

John is a good guitar player within his boundaries, Guns would not suit him... I'm glad this is just someones crazy idea instead of a reality... I have little to no love for Robin finck or DJ Ashba's playing but they are both better fits than John. I could probably name a few guitar players that would have been cool within GnR. Doug Aldrich, Richie kotzen, Dave Navarro... at the same time, they are all relatively big players so I'm not sure how well they would play (be nice) with another 2 guitarists. Getting a relatively unknown guy was really the best thing Guns could have done, well known guys just bring a whole lot f hoopla and distractions and Guns don't need anymore help wit distractions!

[magisme]

That's what I'm looking for. Not a big fan of RHCP, but dat solo...

[Turn_It_Up]

If legendary status was irrelevant the music world would not care as much about Hendrix or Freddie nowadays.

It is not relevant to you, but it is to the world of music. I'd bet that Bieber has more actual fans that Axl or Freddie yet even Justin fans - I said fans, not retarded girls that fell in love with him - wouldn't dare to compare him to those. That's respect based on Freddie's and Axl's legendary status and legacy.

Freddie an exceptional vocalist and technical singer. Axl far from it, but a great frontman. What's the main point here?

Can't let you play the Shawn Lane card and the Axl card in the same thread.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Turn_It_Up

[Turn_It_Up]

Dissolve:

Look On:

Away & Anywhere:

Look On simply orgasmic. If you don't like that, Frusciante ain't your thing

Edited November 4, 2013 by Turn_It_Up

[Bono]

Because you wanted to. My points were...

1) Frusciante is not the be all and end all of guitar playing - he's not the real deal

2) He's not ranked as high as the legendary ones

3) Overall album sales or legendary riffs, solos or songs do not mean anything in terms of why someone is better than the other

4) Legendary status isn't simply thrown away by fans - legacy, pop appeal, songwriting, everything plays a role in how someone is viewed as legend

5) I'd probably like Ron and Bucket as a duo better than him

My last post - I like Frusciante and some of his work is fkn great. I listen to Red Hot on a constant basis. Californication's riff is actually one of the most beautiful over the past decade, Can't Stop is one of the finest riffs that the man has ever written.

Damn Smooth can't stand him, but I like him yet we're on the same boat kind of saying the same thing.

I know it's hard for most of ya's to leave your own opinion behind when discussing something objectively and that what you like the most probably means the best to you, but I can see flaws and fuck ups and point them out when I feel like doing it even if I'm talking about my favorite artists. Just because I like Red Hot I will not say that they're more legendary than AC/DC or Queen. Or that Frusciante is a better overall musician than Jimmy Page or Eddie Van Halen.

I don't hate Slash - I really like him, but I criticize him a lot because he's been releasing mostly shitty - truly uninspired, that is - music for a decade now. I criticize Axl because he's fucking up his career pretty bad since the break up, but I had faith in him when he came back - Axl, unlike Slash, who simply wanted to be a shadow of his former self, wanted to move forward and I believe that he had the right band to do this. He fucked up and now it's too late. That's why many thought I hated Slash and loved Axl. I will speak my mind whether I am bashing or praising someone. I like Axl more as a frontman than Slash as a guitarist but I don't side with him, Tommy and Dizzy because it's Axl - it's because I believed in Axl. Chinese Democracy and the other leaked songs kind of paid off, but he could have been much better than he actually is...

So, all in all, no, I don't think Axl missed a great opportunity. I am not a fanboy that can't see the truth, I'll speak out my mind objectively or subjectively depending on the subject and I will point out flaws on my favorite musicians, unlike some of ya's who get too defensive when I say something bad about Axl or Slash.

Sorry for the slighty off topic, but I was still discussing Axl and his missed opportunities over the past two decades and explained why I said that Frusciante is not the real deal even though he's fine to me. Axl, the musician, disappointed me a lot over the past few years.

I like SoulMonster, Damn Smooth, Groghan and Bacardi because they put time and effort when they discuss something instead of *only* posting images and gifs making fun of people. I don't always agree with them but I like how they respect other people giving them attention, effort and time.

Now I went completely off topic, sorry about that

You are actually stating your musical opinion as a fact and rambling on and on trying to justify something that is impossible to justify. I don't care one bit how much you like Jimi or appreciate his skills. His skills to me are nothing in comparison to John Frucinate because they don't make music I find amazing. nothing Jimi hendrix has ever done has touched me. Frusciante's music has. Frusciante makes better music in my opinion and that makes him a better musician in my eyes/ears. He's also a better singer. I don't care who has the best technical skill, if you can't take that technical skill and use it to create something I enjoy it's meaningless skill. I can appreciate it for what it is but I don't have to like it or "admit" that it's better than anything else. Music taste is subjective end of story. And playing fast or technical doesn't mean better musicianship.

You know it's hard for some of us to leave our opinions behind when discussing something objectively? Ummmm.... read your post. it's nothing but your own opinion stated as a fact. Hilarious.

[Rodzilla72]

If anything, Frusciante dodged a bullet.

What baffles me is this: How did this beyond hypothetical thread spawn 119 replies and only Magisme stated/asked the obvious? Why/How would John Frusciante want to get anywhere near this sideshow when he could happily go about his business and participate in actual functional projects??

[Bono]

If anything, Frusciante dodged a bullet.

What baffles me is this: How did this beyond hypothetical thread spawn 119 replies and only Magisme stated/asked the obvious? Why/How would John Frusciante want to get anywhere near this sideshow when he could happily go about his business and participate in actual functional projects??

The following is my post on page one of this thread. I'm not letting Magisme get all the credit for calling it like it is haha.

Bono, on 01 Nov 2013 - 7:51 AM, said:

It would've been an absolute shame had he joined Guns N Roses and been left to rot. Did Axl miss his chance. Fuck yeah he did but I'm so glad that never happened for John's sake.

John Frusciante >>>>>> Guns N Roses post 1993

Edited November 4, 2013 by Bono

[Rodzilla72]

My apologies to you Bono- and several others actually- turns out I didn't read the responses as closely as I thought... lots 'o folks expressed this similar sentiment.

[ManetsBR]

Many of you missed the point. I didn't say that John should have joined the band, and didn't say that HE missed a great opportunity. It would have been terrible for him.

[Bruno P.]

So Frusciante is as known to his generation as Brian May was. Yup. Jusin Bieber is as known to his generation as Axl was at his prime. Does not mean a thing

Fame and pop/commercial appeal are important when discussing legacy, legendary status. However, they are not important when discussing quality and musicality. That's why some of my favorite musicians are not famous or well known.

Frusciante fans are actually worse than Slash fans never thought I'd reach this point