Stairway To Heaven VS. Sweet Child O' Mine

[Guest Len B'stard]

Speaking for England, your average person who ain't a massive fan of music, who just lives like a normal non album buying non-obssessing over songs life just basically would hear stuff on the radio or be aware of your average sort of stuff on Top of the Pops. Like my old mans a working class guy, front the 70s, not really into music, never bought an album in his life but from basic awareness of being around at the time he's heard of like The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, John Lennon some of his solo stuff, 10cc, Rod Stewart, Marc Bolan, David Bowie, The Beegees all people that had a big profile in England in the 70s, people you would've caught on Top of the Pops or whatever, Led Zeppelin, that kinda heavy rock, it ain't that kind of universal like that.

Even myself, I'm a fuckin' oddity in my community and walk of life that I'm into fuckin' rock music but i can safely say in most fuckin' south asian communities in England over 95% of em ain't heard of Led Zeppelin and if they have they sure as shit couldn't name you a song. And i think it's probably the same in America in lots and lots and lots more communities than people give this shit credit for, they're either blinded by fandom or just haven't got that much awareness of a diverse range of folks.

Even i can honestly say I'd never really heard no Led Zeppelin until i actively sought it out. I'd heard OF them, many many times, I knew they were a rock band, i lived pretty much your average person in Englands life, born in 83, never came across em until i actually went out and bought the albums though.

For an example of like, you guys singing up Stairway, the first place i even heard of it was the guitar shop scene in Waynes World and from that you get the obvious impression that its some kinda classic but where was i gonna hear of it, i didn't hang around with metallers, other than that it's not like it was played in Woolworths or in clubs or when you go to ASDA or on Capital FM or Kiss 100 when you're in the car.

People make a big deal of 'look at the sales, look at the sales' but it's like, look, the record buying public and the public in general are not equivalents, if the record buying public had as many people as the public in general then record sales would be a HELLUVA lot higher than they have ever ever been.

Lads are interested in football, or girls, or the new trainers out, early 70s rock music was never fuckin' high on the 'what cool lads do' list when i was growing up.

Speaking for the ones in England, and no offence here, gimme the impression that perhaps you didn't get out much as kids and built your impressions about this stuff off of documentaries or whatever.

Edited November 17, 2013 by sugaraylen

[Chuloputas]

puff daddy loves led zep, he even sampled kashmir. a lot of black people probably got into led zeppelin thanks to that song.

[Guest Len B'stard]

puff daddy loves led zep, he even sampled kashmir. a lot of black people probably got into led zeppelin thanks to that song.

By and large i'm talking about, I mean you only need to look out into the crowd in the average Zep gig.

[classicguns4life]

For example, how many black people do you see in the average Led Zeppelin crowd? Exactly.

I'm sorry, what GNR gigs are you going to where there are hoards of black people? You'd be lucky to find 5, pretty similar to what you'd find at a Zeppelin gig. I don't mean for it to sound racist, but judging what band gets a bigger diverse audience is not really valid. Rock, specifically classic rock, will always be predominately white. Sorry, can't do anything about that. Their core audience is as broad, and without question more broad, than GNRs. Everyone knows Led Zeppelin as rock titans and I find it hard to believe anyone would seriously argue they aren't bigger than Guns N Roses.

[MEXzilla]

I like Zep but their fucking weak next to GnR.

[Guest Len B'stard]

For example, how many black people do you see in the average Led Zeppelin crowd? Exactly.

I'm sorry, what GNR gigs are you going to where there are hoards of black people? You'd be lucky to find 5, pretty similar to what you'd find at a Zeppelin gig. I don't mean for it to sound racist, but judging what band gets a bigger diverse audience is not really valid. Rock, specifically classic rock, will always be predominately white. Sorry, can't do anything about that. Their core audience is as broad, and without question more broad, than GNRs. Everyone knows Led Zeppelin as rock titans and I find it hard to believe anyone would seriously argue they aren't bigger than Guns N Roses.

There ain't at GnR gigs, thats my point, GnR are like that too. Yes diversity is valid because believe it or not other races make up for huge huge huge chunks of the populous that have little to no awareness of this shit. It's not a way of illustrating anything other than there is a whole cross-section of society that ain't exposed to or aware of this shit. And that includes white people too, it's just i can't highlight those as easily as I can as ones of other races.

The point of my saying all that is never kid yourself into thinking you or your type of person is the only kinda person in the world and your particular thing is sooo soooo sooo diverse that it's like a real household name to the point of where there ain't nobody who ain't heard of it cuz thats not true. Most especially in the case of Led Zeppelin.

Honestly, Michael Jackson i think, internationally, could make a better case than Elvis Presley or The Beatles or Zep (with Zep being by a very very wide margin the least of the aforementioned) as being a true universal thing whereby you could go to a village in Kashmir or Cambodia or Sri Lanka and go 'Michael Jackson?' and it'd ring a fuckin' bell although I'm making this point a helluva lot broader than need be, suffice to say, back to GTFs original point, it's your average rock fan that has an acute awareness of Led Zeppelin and their shit, it's not super duper universal, not by far.

Led Zeppelin is pretty much essential listening for rock music fans, but outside of this group they're nowhere near as well known, or at least their music isn't; their name is definitely legendary. Among many groups (age groups, geographical regions, social categories) I'm quite sure GNR has more well known songs than Led Zeppelin does. They have more pop appeal and they're more recent.

Most of what you said here is just wrong. Outside of this group? You mean this forum? They're nowhere near as well known??? Led Zeppelin did just get Kennedy Center Honors,

I wonder how many people outside of America know what Kennedy Center Honours is or what it's significance is…cuz i don't

Edited November 17, 2013 by sugaraylen

[Iron MikeyJ]

Lenny, I used the Kennedy Center Honors as an example, because they were being honored by the president of the US. Beyond that, I have heard Plant talk about Zeppelin playing for kings and all sorts of royalty back in their day. Thats my point. Maybe during Axl's recent cash grab years the band may have played for leaders in Aubudabi or some other middle eastern country, but we don't know that for sure. And beyond that many would argue it isn't even gnr (but thats a different topic) but for the most part, no gnr does not gain that kind of attention or acclimation. And I highly doubt at any point in the future will gnr be performing for the president. Just because the rest of the world doesn't realize it is an honor, doesn't mean it is any less important. Not to single you out per say, but ignorance doesn't lessen the accomplishment. That would be like me saying "Paul McCartney getting knighted by the queen doesn't mean shit to me because I'm American." It's still a great accomplishment, but me taking that attitude makes me seem ignorant, understand? Which don't take it wrong, i'm not saying you are ignorant.

I have never said that anyone has to like Led Zeppelin, frankly I don't give a damn. But too many people (on this forum) in particular like to make statements like "Led Zeppelin are over rated and Stairway is garbage." Well for one, thats your opinion, not a fact. Stating your opinion as if it were a fact, does not make it true. Just like I could say "guns n' roses is the greatest band ever." That does not make it true.

We can never difinitivly say any band is the "greatest". But if enough people agree with you, it becomes that much stronger. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. Like it or not Led zeppelin is a duck, a few other bands are also ducks. But to say Zeppelin are not, is just your opinion, and the opinion of the minority. Not the majority, it is what it is.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Mike420

[DieselDaisy]

If Stairway is such a masterpiece, then why are the lyrics so wretched? 'A masterpiece' has to be something excellent in all departments. Yet Stairway's lyrics are terrible: ''she gets there she knows if the stores are all closed and she is buying a stairway to heaven''. They have not a jot of wit, precision or coherence.

[Chewbacca]

Best song of all time? None IMO, but stairway comes closer.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Lenny, I used the Kennedy Center Honors as an example, because they were being honored by the president of the US. Beyond that, I have heard Plant talk about Zeppelin playing for kings and all sorts of royalty back in their day. Thats my point. Maybe during Axl's recent cash grab years the band may have played for leaders in Aubudabi or some other middle eastern country, but we don't know that for sure. And beyond that many would argue it isn't even gnr (but thats a different topic) but for the most part, no gnr does not gain that kind of attention or acclimation. And I highly doubt at any point in the future will gnr be performing for the president. Just because the rest of the world doesn't realize it is an honor, doesn't mean it is any less important. Not to single you out per say, but ignorance doesn't lessen the accomplishment. That would be like me saying "Paul McCartney getting knighted by the queen doesn't mean shit to me because I'm American." It's still a great accomplishment, but me taking that attitude makes me seem ignorant, understand? Which don't take it wrong, i'm not saying you are ignorant.

I have never said that anyone has to like Led Zeppelin, frankly I don't give a damn. But too many people (on this forum) in particular like to make statements like "Led Zeppelin are over rated and Stairway is garbage." Well for one, thats your opinion, not a fact. Stating your opinion as if it were a fact, does not make it true. Just like I could say "guns n' roses is the greatest band ever." That does not make it true.

We can never difinitivly say any band is the "greatest". But if enough people agree with you, it becomes that much stronger. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. Like it or not Led zeppelin is a duck, a few other bands are also ducks. But to say Zeppelin are not, is just your opinion, and the opinion of the minority. Not the majority, it is what it is.

Not really what i was getting at but nevermind.

[Bruno P.]

For example, how many black people do you see in the average Led Zeppelin crowd? Exactly.

Just like I thought - your input is automatically insignificant after this.

Everyone knows Led Zeppelin as rock titans and I find it hard to believe anyone would seriously argue they aren't bigger than Guns N Roses.

Thank you for that. Yes, it's insane to even believe that people seriously argue that Led aren't bigger than Guns. It's just... insanity, plain and simple.

We can never difinitivly say any band is the "greatest". But if enough people agree with you, it becomes that much stronger. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. Like it or not Led zeppelin is a duck, a few other bands are also ducks. But to say Zeppelin are not, is just your opinion, and the opinion of the minority. Not the majority, it is what it is.

Thank your for that. Some people simply can not grasp this simple concept, that their opinion does not mean anything at all if we're talking about objective stuff. Just because I like GnR more than Zep does not change the fact that Zep are widely heralded as one of the greatest rock bands ever - it's just wrong that people even argue about that.

That's why MSL got to piss off some of these same people. Look, Zep is a fkn duck. It's up to you if you accept that fact, but if you chose not to believe it, doesn't change the fact that Zep is a duck... just like a few other bands.

[moreblack]

If Stairway is such a masterpiece, then why are the lyrics so wretched? 'A masterpiece' has to be something excellent in all departments. Yet Stairway's lyrics are terrible: ''she gets there she knows if the stores are all closed and she is buying a stairway to heaven''. They have not a jot of wit, precision or coherence.

at least post the right lyrics.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Just like I thought - your input is automatically insignificant after this.

Ooh fuck me, the authorities have spoken Sorry, you get to decide that cuz you're who exactly? Yeah, some joker with an internet connection, just like the rest of us so behave Sorry if it bothers you that i dared to point out a lack of diversity in your favourite bands audience so as to illustrate an avenue where their 'universal appeal' lacks. Sorry. There was a lot more to the post than that but clearly the mention of negroes was enough for ya

Edited November 17, 2013 by sugaraylen

[Bruno P.]

They're not my favorite band. Your "black vs white audience" point is totally irrelevant, retarded and racist. You've gone too far here.

[Guest Len B'stard]

They're not my favorite band. Your "black vs white audience" point is totally irrelevant, retarded and racist. You've gone too far here.

How is it irrelevant, i was expanding on a point someone was making about universal appeal, i'd say that made it directly and unavoidably relevant.

The fact that you saw the word 'black' and immediately turned it into a 'black vs white' thing shows exactly where you are coming from. Explain to me where you get the 'versus' bit from, show me where any form of competition was even vaguely alluded to? Nowhere, alls i said was, in response to constant assertions of their universal appeal, that their appeal simply isn't that universal. How in Gods name did you interpret that as a 'black vs white' thing?!?! I'd like that explained to me please and if you can't I'd like an apology for calling me a racist. Why can i not mention that their audience range is limited? Why should the idea that, for WHATEVER reason, their audience is not very diverse and the racial make up of their audience is reflective of that be forbidden to mention? How is that at all racist? The same could be said for Chas and Dave.

The very fact that you saw the mention of race and you thought 'OMG, he's saying that Led Zeppelin are only for white people, racist racist racist!' shows that perhaps you need to look within yourself a little before jumping to conclusions regarding what was a very very explicitly outlined point.

If something about the notion of someone using race or creed or cultural background makes you uncomfortable then perhaps you shouldn't engage in discussions regarding 'universal' appeal, I mean, by the very nature of what that statement means the only way to present counterpoint to it is by way of making distinctions that are based on creed or race or age or gender or even sexuality surely, as those things are essential in illustrating something that is the opposite of universal. What exactly are you trying to tell me, that basically if someone ever says something is of universal appeal then it is racist or reflective of some level of prejudice to offer a riposte? You're being ridiculous.

Edited November 17, 2013 by sugaraylen

[Nick83]

Stairway to Heaven=pure magic and probably the greatest song ever.

If you are a person who doesnt "get" Led Zeppelin, then you've got no soul.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Nick83

[Guest Len B'stard]

If you are a person who doesnt "get" Led Zeppelin, then you've got no soul.

Yeah, I hear James Brown used to listen to em backstage before a show just to get in the mood! Led Zeppelin are the fuckin' opposite of soul.

(i'm making light of your comment, i realise there's every chance you meant soul in the broader sense, thank you).

Edited November 17, 2013 by sugaraylen

[DieselDaisy]

Stairway to Heaven=pure magic and probably the greatest song ever.

If you are a person who doesnt "get" Led Zeppelin, then you've got no soul.

This is the sort of cack I hate from Zep fans. (I honestly think Zeppelin fans are the biggest dicks on the net.) No soul have I, because I do not like a bunch of black country cunts ripping off Willie Dixon and Robert Johnson?

[Guest Len B'stard]

Stairway to Heaven=pure magic and probably the greatest song ever.

If you are a person who doesnt "get" Led Zeppelin, then you've got no soul.

This is the sort of cack I hate from Zep fans. (I honestly think Zeppelin fans are the biggest dicks on the net.) No soul have I, because I do not like a bunch of black country cunts ripping off Willie Dixon and Robert Johnson?

And poorly at that. I think some of the great American/non-English Zep fans would do well to gather some kind of understanding of the places your Pages and Plants come actually, for no other reason than the perspective it might offer to the character of their work on the whole. They might find that what they've 'got' is nothing to do with whats there.

Edited November 17, 2013 by sugaraylen

[Georgy Zhukov]

Stairway to Heaven is the song you play when someone tells you rock is nothing but noise and screaming vocals.

[OmarBradley]

Stairway to Heaven is the song you play when someone tells you rock is nothing but noise and screaming vocals.

Agreed.

And even though I went with WTTJ in the other thread, I have to go with Stairway here. It's the quintessential Zeppelin song, and possibly the quintessential "classic rock song." It has had so much influence on so many things (as SCOM has), but I think the arrangement and melodies in Stairway are a bit better than SCOM's. Don't get me wrong, I'm a bigger GNR fan than LZ, but sometimes you gotta know when to pay respect and admit not everything about GNR is perfect. Now Ain't Life Grand on the other hand... that was perfect. Though that's a different discussion, and I know most of you disagree.

Edited November 18, 2013 by OmarBradley

[Georgy Zhukov]

It is a beautiful song, a shame so many people try to be cool and say the last part was the best. The whole song is beautiful. It is all about the build up. It is obviously not the first song to do that but it is one of the best. People bought Untitled like it was a single just to hear that song.

Often the best songs, that centerpiece, crowned jewel, whatever you call it is that song that starts out slow and you are blown away. Often whoever wrote those after 1971 was thinking of Zeppelin or Floyd.

So what if they have ripped off blues artists? Blues artists do that all the time.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Georgy Zhukov

[AxlsAngel]

Stairway to Heaven for sure!.

[wfuckinga]

Stairway, and Zeppelin, are overrated as fuck imo. That said, Houses of The Holy (album) kicks ass.

[Iron MikeyJ]

I'm gonna start this rant by saying I love Axl's lyrics on SCOM. They are some of the best "love song" lyrics I have ever heard, but I still give the edge to Stairway even in the lyric department. How so many people can sit here and bash the lyrics is a little troubling imo. I don't think they are the "best ever" or even Zeppelins best, but they are still incredible. The first sentance of the song sums it all up imo, making it the perfect thesis sentance, "There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold and shes buying a stairway to heaven." How do you all miss this? Are you really that "pop" oriented that you need it spilled out for you? It's painfully obvious what he singing about imo.

I could go on and on, line by line with that song, but "ain't nobody got time for that." But I encourage everyone to go and listen to it again, and listen to the lyrics. They truly are a thing of beauty, very poetic, with a message. I guess if you don't get it, I feel sorta sad for you.