Police cleared in Mark Duggan shooting as jury record verdict of "lawful killing"

[Dazey]

he would still be alive if he just put his hands up and lied on the ground. when a cop thinks your dangerous and has a gun pointed at you, running is the dumbest fucking thing you can do.

Yeah.

But but police still planted evidence, and got away with it.

'just saying... Don't want a repeat of 2011.

They planted his own gun that's freely acknowledged to have been HIS OWN GUN!!!!!

[Tater Totts]

So many heartless people... wow.

You mean like the drug dealing gangster who got himself shot? Gimme a break.

How did he get himself shot? He wasn't even armed and so wasn't an immediate threat.

Whose gun was it then?

He had a gun but he wasn't armed, it wasn't even on his person.

Duggan was being investigated by the police as he was involved in gun crime and drugs, he was being watched as part of a police investigation. He was identified as a dangerous person, when police identified themselves to him he bolted from the cab and was later shot, the officer that shot him was convinced he saw him holding a gun. The gun in question was later found in the cab, just because he didn't have the gun on him at the time he was shot that does not mean he wasn't a dangerous person.

What a bunch of bollocks, fact is that he didn't have a weapon on his person and so could have been restrained in another way. Two police officers against one man? "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight" - Mark Duggan had a gun but he didn't have it in that situation, on his person (that's the important part).

Not surprised some people think like you do though, there are some people in this world who justify killing someone because they do the dangerous thing of carrying skittles and a drink.

Yes because when the police are telling you to now move bolting from the cab is a really good idea isn't it? If Duggan had just listened to police and not moved he would still be alive but no, he had a gun on him, dropped it in the cab and ran for his life prompting the police to chase him and ultimately shoot him.

[***Flawless]

So many heartless people... wow.

You mean like the drug dealing gangster who got himself shot? Gimme a break.

How did he get himself shot? He wasn't even armed and so wasn't an immediate threat.

Whose gun was it then?

He had a gun but he wasn't armed, it wasn't even on his person.

Duggan was being investigated by the police as he was involved in gun crime and drugs, he was being watched as part of a police investigation. He was identified as a dangerous person, when police identified themselves to him he bolted from the cab and was later shot, the officer that shot him was convinced he saw him holding a gun. The gun in question was later found in the cab, just because he didn't have the gun on him at the time he was shot that does not mean he wasn't a dangerous person.

What a bunch of bollocks, fact is that he didn't have a weapon on his person and so could have been restrained in another way. Two police officers against one man? "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight" - Mark Duggan had a gun but he didn't have it in that situation, on his person (that's the important part).

Not surprised some people think like you do though, there are some people in this world who justify killing someone because they do the dangerous thing of carrying skittles and a drink.

Yes because when the police are telling you to now move bolting from the cab is a really good idea isn't it? If Duggan had just listened to police and not moved he would still be alive but no, he had a gun on him, dropped it in the cab and ran for his life prompting the police to chase him and ultimately shoot him.

You don't shoot people because they run away, and the logical thing would be to fire a shot in the air as a warning. What did he do as an unarmed man, to cause two armed officers to shoot him? Honestly, they could have shot him in the leg or something to (as I said) just detain him, killing shouldn't be the first resort.

[bran]

why would you fire a shot in the air and run the risk of the bullet coming down and killing an innocent? when you start trying to aim for a limb or any other smallish area you run the risk of missing and hitting an innocent, hence why cops are trained to fire center mass. armed officers yelling for him to get down didnt stop him you think firing a gun in the air will? the guy was an idiot and his death is strictly on him and him alone.

Edited January 14, 2014 by bran

[Dazey]

why would you fire a shot in the air and run the risk of the bullet coming down and killing an innocent? when you start trying to aim for a limb or any other smallish area you run the risk of missing and hitting an innocent, hence why cops are trained to fire center mass. armed officers yelling for him to get down didnt stop him you think firing a gun in the air will? the guy was an idiot and his death is strictly on him and him alone.

Saved me typing just that right there. Absolutely spot on! Flawless, I'm sorry but you clearly know absolutely nothing about how these situations are handled. The fact that he didn't have the gun on his person is totally irrelevant because how exactly do you expect the police at the time to know if it was in his pocket, his hand or back in the cab?

They were acting on accurate inteligence that he had a gun in his possession and under those circumstances the only priority is to find and retrieve the gun and apprehend the suspect SAFELY. The way this works is that you identify yourself as armed police and tell the suspect not to move while you retrieve the weapon or verify that there isn't one.

If they did it your way then they would have to wait until he had the gun drawn in plain view aiming at them before firing at him. Sorry but can't you see just how ridiculous that is? They shot him because once you're told to freeze by a policeman pointing a machine gun at you any sudden moves you make are interpreted as a threat and thus a shooting is entirely justified.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Dazey

[***Flawless]

why would you fire a shot in the air and run the risk of the bullet coming down and killing an innocent? when you start trying to aim for a limb or any other smallish area you run the risk of missing and hitting an innocent, hence why cops are trained to fire center mass. armed officers yelling for him to get down didnt stop him you think firing a gun in the air will? the guy was an idiot and his death is strictly on him and him alone.

Saved me typing just that right there. Absolutely spot on! Flawless, I'm sorry but you clearly know absolutely nothing about how these situations are handled. The fact that he didn't have the gun on his person is totally irrelevant because how exactly do you expect the police at the time to know if it was in his pocket, his hand or back in the cab?

The fact that he didn't have it out and wasn't even attempting to aim a gun at them? I know you seem to be big on supporting this pointless killing, but if the police were THAT well-trained, he wouldn't be dead.

[Dazey]

The fact that he didn't have it out and wasn't even attempting to aim a gun at them?

Doesn't matter in the slightest! Have you any idea how long it takes to pull a gun? Seconds, if that. It wouldn't even matter if no gun was ever found.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Dazey

[***Flawless]

The fact that he didn't have it out and wasn't even attempting to aim a gun at them?

Doesn't matter in the slightest! Have you any idea how long it takes to pull a gun? Seconds, if that. It wouldn't even matter if no gun was ever found.

I'm done with this conversation, I'm not blood-thirsty and clearly a moral compass isn't valued.

[Tater Totts]

The police identified themselves to Duggan, asked him to stay where he was while they had a gun on him and yet he bolted. So just to clear up, a person classified as possibly dangerous by the police was given the opportunity to let them search him to see if he had any weapon on him, identified themselves to him and let him resolve it peacefully and he still bolted.

If I was a police officer this would ring so many alarm bells that someone would rather run than come quietly, as he was being chased Duggan went into his pocket for something which turned out to be a phone yet in all the commotion the police have to make a judgement call, they've already gave him ample opportunity to come quietly so do.

The officer than shot him was convinced he saw him get out a gun and with everything that had previously occurred made the judgement call of shooting him, which based on the previous evidence and events seems justified which is why it was ruled a lawful killing by the inquest.

[AxlisOld]

Comply first, sue later. That's a pretty good mantra to follow.

[bran]

its not being blood thirsty, it is having the common sense to get on the ground when cops with machine guns tell you to.

[Guest Len B'stard]

The police identified themselves to Duggan, asked him to stay where he was while they had a gun on him and yet he bolted. So just to clear up, a person classified as possibly dangerous by the police was given the opportunity to let them search him to see if he had any weapon on him, identified themselves to him and let him resolve it peacefully and he still bolted.

If I was a police officer this would ring so many alarm bells that someone would rather run than come quietly, as he was being chased Duggan went into his pocket for something which turned out to be a phone yet in all the commotion the police have to make a judgement call, they've already gave him ample opportunity to come quietly so do.

The officer than shot him was convinced he saw him get out a gun and with everything that had previously occurred made the judgement call of shooting him, which based on the previous evidence and events seems justified which is why it was ruled a lawful killing by the inquest.

He got out a gun whilst bolting?

[Tater Totts]

The police identified themselves to Duggan, asked him to stay where he was while they had a gun on him and yet he bolted. So just to clear up, a person classified as possibly dangerous by the police was given the opportunity to let them search him to see if he had any weapon on him, identified themselves to him and let him resolve it peacefully and he still bolted.

If I was a police officer this would ring so many alarm bells that someone would rather run than come quietly, as he was being chased Duggan went into his pocket for something which turned out to be a phone yet in all the commotion the police have to make a judgement call, they've already gave him ample opportunity to come quietly so do.

The officer than shot him was convinced he saw him get out a gun and with everything that had previously occurred made the judgement call of shooting him, which based on the previous evidence and events seems justified which is why it was ruled a lawful killing by the inquest.

He got out a gun whilst bolting?

That is why he was shot no? The officer that shot him saw him going into his pocket and was convinced he saw him get a gun out and made a judgement call, based on the events that had transpired previously I see no reason why the officer would have thought otherwise. When a person who had been given ample opportunity to come quietly and peacefully be searched instead chose to run when asked if he had a weapon it raises so many red flags.

[Guest Len B'stard]

I dont know what happened in detail, just skim read dribs and drabs a fair while ago...so they approached him, guns drawn, then he ran and whilst running they realised he was pulling a gun? How far had he gone before the officer saw him reach? I thought it was some bollocks about him sitting in a car and allegedly chucking the shooter in a bush or something?

Edited January 14, 2014 by sugaraylen

[Tater Totts]

Yeah he was in a cab and they approached him, asked him if he was armed and gave him several chances to resolve the matter in a calm and peaceful manner and he bolted. While running he went for something in his pocket which based on previous events, the information they had at the time and in the heat of the moment the officer that shot him thought was a gun. A gun which was confirmed as his was later found and there are conflicting reports as to whether it was found in the cab or over a bush.

At the end of the day we can endlessly debate whether his shooting was justified, but if Duggan had cooperated with the police and not tried to run for it he would still be alive.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Yeah he was in a cab and they approached him, asked him if he was armed and gave him several chances to resolve the matter in a calm and peaceful manner and he bolted. While running he went for something in his pocket which based on previous events, the information they had at the time and in the heat of the moment the officer that shot him thought was a gun. A gun which was confirmed as his was later found and there are conflicting reports as to whether it was found in the cab or over a bush.

At the end of the day we can endlessly debate whether his shooting was justified, but if Duggan had cooperated with the police and not tried to run for it he would still be alive.

Yeah but thats not the way things work, is it? You don't take the broad view of if he had done this then the other wouldn't've happened, what you do is take what actually did happen and assess whether the coppers were justified in what they did and it sounds to me mate like they weren't. He ran out of a cab and pulled a gun. So there's coppers on this cab but it ain't covered to a point where he can't just jump out of it and make a run for it? And also, they saw him pull a gun from a distance, OK, fair play...but then why shoot to kill? If he was running away from them whilst pulling a gun then how clear was it to the copper that it was a gun, unless he was running backwards? And if he was seen pulling a gun, whilst facing away from them and running then couldn't they have shot him in the leg? It's not really a heat of the moment OK Corral thing where you just shoot cuz it all comes on top at once and the blokes facing you, or even close to you bearing in mind that he was running away.

And then the conflicting reports bit, hmmmm.

Edited January 14, 2014 by sugaraylen

[Tater Totts]

Just have to agree to disagree really, alright to criticise the police looking back in hindsight but I personally do feel they were justified.

Main question I have is why did Duggan run? He easily could have identified himself and come out with his hands held up and given himself up, if he wasn't armed what did he have to hide? Why would you run when the police have given you ample opportunity to resolve the matter peacefully if you have nothing to hide? If you are armed why run and try and evade the police, it isn't going to make the matter any better.

In regards to the shooting itself, as Dazey mentioned, police are trained to shoot for the centre mass as it is the biggest target and greater odds to incapacitate someone than shooting at a moving limb.

Like I said, it is clear we disagree about this so I'm just going to leave it be.

[Guest Len B'stard]

ust have to agree to disagree really, alright to criticise the police looking back in hindsight but I personally do feel they were justified.

From what you've said I don't at all.

Main question I have is why did Duggan run? He easily could have identified himself and come out with his hands held up and given himself up, if he wasn't armed what did he have to hide? Why would you run when the police have given you ample opportunity to resolve the matter peacefully if you have nothing to hide? If you are armed why run and try and evade the police, it isn't going to make the matter any better.

But thats avoiding the issue isn't it? The issue is whether the shooting of Mark Duggan was justified, running from the cops does not warrant a death sentence man. Maybe he did have something to hide...does he deserve to die for it though? I'm not doubting that Duggan was a criminal or dodgy but this whole thing stinks, they saw him pull a gun whilst running and presumably turned away from them so they shot him...what, in the back?

In regards to the shooting itself, as Dazey mentioned, police are trained to shoot for the centre mass as it is the biggest target and greater odds to incapacitate someone than shooting at a moving limb.

That sounds silly, so what do they shoot at when they are shooting to kill, his ankles, they're an armed response unit, sharpshooters, the definition of what they do is a lot more exacting than that.

Edited January 14, 2014 by sugaraylen

[DieselDaisy]

He probably ran because he knows the police are a bunch of fuckin scumbugs.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Also, i dunno if you've ever run from the cops before but you have to go at a fair ol' lick...the last thing on your mind is looking back, it tends to slow down your escape a fair bit. And bearing that in mind, how could they have even seen if he was pulling a gun...and even if he was he wouldn't've been facing him...so why the lethal shot?

[Tater Totts]

So you have an armed man running away from you, you just let him go? He has been given ample opportunity to resolve the matter in a peaceful manner and has taken the law into his own hands, every possible avenue has been exhausted what else do you expect them to do? Let him get away? The police made a judgement call and it resulted in his death but based on the LAW they did nothing wrong.

The running itself doesn't warrant a death sentence no, but everything leading up to it makes the shooting in my eyes justified.

1. He was a known criminal who was linked to both drug and gun crime.

2. He was being investigated by the police as part of a wider operation.

3. He had the opportunity to resolve the matter peacefully by coming quietly.

4. He never told the police he was unarmed or acted in a calm rational manner.

5. He knew the police were investigating him but never acted to resolve the situation.

6. He made the decision to run from the police and escalated matters.

7. The police were chasing him and saw him reach into his pocket for something, the officer that shot him was convinced it was a gun and so took the shot.

Now I don't know about you, but I see all of those things and see several opportunities where Duggan was given the opportunity to resolve the events peacefully. Obviously we don't know all the facts and probably never will but if I was a police officer and saw the escalation that was occurring I have to say that yes I would have taken the shot. The police officer said he was sure that Duggan had a gun all other avenues had been exhausted and it was clear Duggan wasn't going to come peacefully, would you just let him run away if you were convinced he was armed and acted this way when given he had several chances to avoid this? Especially in the wake of the Raoul Moat situation that occurred in the not too distant past and ended the lives of two police officers and blinded another.

Based this the inquest ruled that it was a lawful death while the killing of the Brazillian man you mentioned earlier was ruled unlawful by the same inquest, completely different situation and completely different outcome.

[Guest Len B'stard]

So you have an armed man running away from you, you just let him go? He has been given ample opportunity to resolve the matter in a peaceful manner and has taken the law into his own hands, every possible avenue has been exhausted what else do you expect them to do? Let him get away? The police made a judgement call and it resulted in his death but based on the LAW they did nothing wrong.

Except the major discrepancies like how the fuck did he leave the cab despite the cops being on it, the fact that he was running away, the fact that, presumably he was shot whilst not even facing the coppers, the fact that there are 'conflicting accounts' of what went on, none of this rings alarm bells? You're saying these coppers were on the cab yet he escaped, ran, started to pull a gun whilst running away from them so they shot him? Think man, just think.

1. Still doesn't mean you can slaughter the bastard

2. So?

3. Again, running does not warrant a death sentence

4. Neither did the Police apparently

5. You make numerous allusions to peaceful resolution but at the same time running away is not an act of aggression. The continued use of the term 'peaceful' here suggests that what Duggan was doing was the opposite i.e. an act of aggression, which running away isn't.

6. Still not reason enough to kill him

7. How far away was he, how had they let him get that far since they were on the cab from the get-go, how could a person running AWAY from them that pulled a gun possibly be threat enough for them to kill him dead quicker than they could shoot to disable him?

Now I don't know about you, but I see all of those things and see several opportunities where Duggan was given the opportunity to resolve the events peacefully. Obviously we don't know all the facts and probably never will but if I was a police officer and saw the escalation that was occurring I have to say that yes I would have taken the shot. The police officer said he was sure that Duggan had a gun all other avenues had been exhausted and it was clear Duggan wasn't going to come peacefully, would you just let him run away if you were convinced he was armed and acted this way when given he had several chances to avoid this?

So instigating a potential gun battle in the streets or murdering a young man is the way to go about things? When you are investigating someones death like this, with a view to assessing whether or not it was lawful, it is less the person dead on trial as it is the police and their conduct, your perspective here is heavily slanted towards Duggan and his behaviour instead of addressing the discrepancies and shortcomings in the coppers stories.

And you can't compare some mental guy to a drug dealer type criminal, as far as I'm aware Duggan was not a mental case that was gonna go around shooting innocent people...and if they'd been watching him all this time it couldn't've been the only time they were on him whilst he had weapons or a weapon.

[Snake-Pit]

he would still be alive if he just put his hands up and lied on the ground. when a cop thinks your dangerous and has a gun pointed at you, running is the dumbest fucking thing you can do.

Yeah.

But but police still planted evidence, and got away with it.

'just saying... Don't want a repeat of 2011.

They planted his own gun that's freely acknowledged to have been HIS OWN GUN!!!!!

I don't know about you, but I have to live with these fuckers driving around. Police here, police there; If it's one rule for them and another for us, that's bull shit.

They still planted a gun.

They planted a gun.

The police basically are a gang run by the state.

[PappyTron]

HOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

[Ace Nova]

Doesn't matter in the slightest! Have you any idea how long it takes to pull a gun? Seconds....

....even less...I used to be able to load my Glock, cock it, point....and shoot in less than 2 seconds.....if it was already loaded, it would take me about a second to cock it and shoot.....if it was already loaded and cocked....less than half of a second to point and shoot.....